combat with a necron lord on a chariot as well as combat against an assasin.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

in combat after you declare your challenges because well chaos has to the remainder of the unit get's to assault the unit in the challenge.

senerio were chaos lord and world eater unit vs necron lord on a barge as well as chaos lord and berserkers vs a lone assasin. as far as i have read in 7th edition they challenge is fought at their inatitive step and the unit piles in at their inatitive step and takes their swings as well against both units they do not sit there with their thumbs in the air waiting for a ride. they being that they are a single unit and in combat they can and are targetable.

[Gwhizz84]

I have no idea what your question is.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

some one said that in those situations with the lord and the assasin the the acompanying squads would just sit there and that they would not strike as it was in 6th edition. now from what i have read that changed in the rule book for 7th. i highlighted both the sections for chariots as well as for challenges and then into combat. what i read showed that the challenge does not protect you from being attacked when your a lone unit like an assasin woudl be as well as the necron lord. what chariots stated that the attacks had to go against the lord or his chriot and that it was my choice. So not sure why the player as well as the guy in the chaos tactic is saying that the units simply woudl sit there and not strike at all during combat when the rules clearly state that they get to fight back. the challenges were one of the things they did change in 7th.

[Blood Shadow]

If I interpreted your scenario correct you're asking if the Assassin or Necron Lord/ Chariot can be attacked if the challenge is still ongoing?

I believe the answer is no.

In the case of assassin:

If the assassin were to kill the Chaos Lord, then the challenge would end, any remaining (spare overkill) wounds caused by the Assassin can now be applied to the berserker squad.
If the Chaos Lord kills the assassin then there are no units left to put any overkill wounds on, so these are lost.
If neither the assassin or the Chaos Lord manages to kill the other then the challenge is ongoing.

The Necron character can fight in a challenge from the chariot....there's two possible approaches to this:

1) the chariot is completely ignored as you must attack the rider, the chariot can not be singled out by the squad as it is in essence one and the same as the rider
2) the chariot can be attacked by the squad whilst the rider is in the challenge

Thematically I'd say #2, as why couldn't the squad beat up his ride, however this creates some issues as, if the squad destroys the chariot the Rider would have to be removed as well, which kind of sucks if you were just waiting for your turn to strike back in the challenge....so I think it has to be #1

Edit: this is incorrect, see later posts

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

when i get home i will post the sections i have in the book highlighted the challenge mechanic changed in 7th. both units are eligable targets as they are the only units in the combat. being a single model in a challenge will not save them from being attacked by other units in the same combat.

[Blood Shadow]

when i get home i will post the sections i have in the book highlighted the challenge mechanic changed in 7th. both units are eligable targets as they are the only units in the combat. being a single model in a challenge will not save them from being attacked by other units in the same combat.

You're right, in the section: "Outside Forces" it states that they cannot attack an enemy character in a unit for as long as other targets exist, so it's fairly clear that single model units can't hide themselves in a challenge and are open to being attacked at Int.

Therefore the chariot can be selected to be attacked by the unit, or the rider or both

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

ya it came up in a tournament but by then it was to late to make a difference i had posted about it in the chaos tactica but someone had told me i was wrong. was just trying to double check. for me i had to read the challenge section as well as assault as well as chariots it was a bit of a back and forth but something that i know i overlooked as i am sure other's have as well.

[John Bower]

It was a heck of a change in the challenges; before you couldn't help your character in a challenge but now if there's only a character in the enemy unit everyone can attack. It was done to stop people issuing challenges in order to tie units up that couldn't refuse. Now that no longer works so well.

[SnakeChisler]

This is true the wounds cascade both ways, wouldn't make much sense if overkill went from the challenge into the squad and they sat on there behinds while they got slaughtered.

The text also says one challenge per close combat so if you decide to duck out your character gets to not swing this turn but can in the next player turn and he can't re-challenge.

GW's definition of a turn is "Whenever a rule refers to ‘a turn’ it always means ‘player turn’ unless it specifically refers to a ‘game turn’.

Getting gubbed by a Demon Prince who could fly in and challenge and pick off your characters while you were stuck in combat was a real mare.

[John Bower]

This is true the wounds cascade both ways, wouldn't make much sense if overkill went from the challenge into the squad and they sat on there behinds while they got slaughtered.

The text also says one challenge per close combat so if you decide to duck out your character gets to not swing this turn but can in the next player turn and he can't re-challenge.

GW's definition of a turn is "Whenever a rule refers to ‘a turn’ it always means ‘player turn’ unless it specifically refers to a ‘game turn’.

Getting gubbed by a Demon Prince who could fly in and challenge and pick off your characters while you were stuck in combat was a real mare.

I think you'll find it's one 'on-going' challenge; not just one challenge per combat. Once one is resolved a new challenge can be issued. I don't remember reading that it precludes those already challenged from being challenged again.

[SnakeChisler]

Nope just says 1 challenge per combat the words "on going" don't appear anywhere

Text wise there's nothing that says you can re-challenge if they refuse or that you can do anything more than get them to duck out for the 1st round of combat so bit of a change all round.

[John Bower]

Nope just says 1 challenge per combat the words "on going" don't appear anywhere

Text wise there's nothing that says you can re-challenge if they refuse or that you can do anything more than get them to duck out for the 1st round of combat so bit of a change all round.

Read it properly don't skip paragraphs; 3rd para left hand side P101. "Once one challenge has been made no further challenges can be issued in that combat that turn."

Then it says: "If the challenge is accepted .... no further challenges can be issued until that challenge has been resolved"

The only bit I cut out was a reference to another section that was totally unimportant.

[SnakeChisler]

I didn't skip anything its says 1 per combat full stop and even in bold for good measure.

Paragraph 2 & 3 go into how to issue a challenge and its process, it does seem a bit weird that the text looks like its been written with 6th rules without really reading what they've put in paragraph 1, not got my 6th handy so I can't see if they've done the dreaded cut & paste.

As far as I'm aware though combat starts when 2 units butt heads and stops when 1 of them leaves.

[John Bower]

I didn't skip anything its says 1 per combat full stop and even in bold for good measure.

Paragraph 2 & 3 go into how to issue a challenge and its process, it does seem a bit weird that the text looks like its been written with 6th rules without really reading what they've put in paragraph 1, not got my 6th handy so I can't see if they've done the dreaded cut & paste.

As far as I'm aware though combat starts when 2 units butt heads and stops when 1 of them leaves.

So by that then we were playing it wrong in 6th too, the wording hasn't changed I just looked. Still bolded out as Only 1 challenged can be issued per close combat. The other paragraphs always did just clarify what they meant by that; that only 1 can be issued until it's resolved.

The only thing that's really altered is the 'outside forces' bit; where the wounds from a challenge carry over if you kill your opponent.

[SnakeChisler]

Could be I dunno looks like the paragraphs are written by different people as in they don't really make sense when read as a whole.

One says one combat the other implies a never ending stream of victims

Anyways at least GW sorted out the rest sitting around doing nothing, I have had a couple of people trying to claim it went only 1 way tho from Big scary demon to everyone else but we don't get to fight back which it clearly isn't

[John Bower]

Could be I dunno looks like the paragraphs are written by different people as in they don't really make sense when read as a whole.

One says one combat the other implies a never ending stream of victims

Anyways at least GW sorted out the rest sitting around doing nothing, I have had a couple of people trying to claim it went only 1 way tho from Big scary demon to everyone else but we don't get to fight back which it clearly isn't

I still think the Intent is clear; 1 per combat until such time as it's resolved. :)

[SnakeChisler]

I still think the Intent is clear; 1 per combat until such time as it's resolved. :)

If it were a comp and it mattered then you should get a TO ruling on it as intent isn't really good enough and I'm not sure reading it all that there is intent there is just sloppy writing and the author has gone off and started thinking ahead to to wax on about epic moments and forging a narrative.

Final thought on the matter well I'm pretty much on the fence both views have merit

[John Bower]

this is how you deal with a challenge in modern times:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YyBtMxZgQs