When a proxy isn't a proxy

[Vincenzo Bruni]

Yes we all know that, we all saw that: soda bottles used as Greater Daemons, keychains as SM flyers and so on.
And often it was plain terrible: proxying was the name of low quality games at worst, worth a laugh at best.

It's not always the case, you know.

Warhammer Proxies! (https://www.facebook.com/groups/535981369814344/) is a Facebook group for "serious proxiers" - hobbyistis who convert and modify toys, souvenirs, cake boxes, burned-out electronic circuits et cetera into Warhammer 40K and Fantasy models.

11154

Sky is the limit for imagination.

We have a lot of ferocious and vocal haters but we do not give up, ever.

Do you wanna give us a chance?

[Captain Bubonicus]

No.

[GrauGeist]

It's a lot better if you share some pictures of what you're talking about.

If you can't even share pictures, what does that say about your confidence in how good your proxies *really* are?

[Defenestratus]

No.

This.

[AdamHarry]

Yes we all know that, we all saw that: soda bottles used as Greater Daemons, keychains as SM flyers and so on.
And often it was plain terrible: proxying was the name of low quality games at worst, worth a laugh at best.

It's not always the case, you know.

Warhammer Proxies! (https://www.facebook.com/groups/535981369814344/) is a Facebook group for "serious proxiers" - hobbyistis who convert and modify toys, souvenirs, cake boxes, burned-out electronic circuits et cetera into Warhammer 40K and Fantasy models.

Sky is the limit for imagination.

We have a lot of ferocious and vocal haters but we do not give up, ever.

Do you wanna give us a chance?

From Google:
Proxy: the authority to represent someone else, especially in voting.
"they may register to vote by proxy"
synonyms: deputy, representative, substitute, delegate, agent, surrogate, stand-in, attorney, go-between
"I am here to vote as Mrs. Carlson's proxy"
-a person authorized to act on behalf of another.
plural noun: proxies
-a document authorizing a person to vote on another's behalf.

Conversion: the act or an instance of converting or the process of being converted.
"the conversion of food into body tissues"
synonyms: change, changing, transformation, metamorphosis, transfiguration, transmutation, sea change; humoroustransmogrification
"the conversion of waste into energy"

Convert : cause to change in form, character, or function.

-------

The difference between a Proxy and a Conversion, to me, is effort.

Most people have an aversion to Proxies because they show a distinct lack of effort. I have played and have played against Proxy armies. I did this because I was wanting to test something or my opponent wanted to test something. But at some point playing against Proxies becomes unsatisfying (for me at least). If you are the type of person that just wants to play the game and you don't care for the models/painting/hobby aspects/wants to use cardboard tubes as tanks (which is perfectly fine) - then by all means, continue to enjoy the game(s) you play! For many players, those same hobby aspects are the most appealing part of the game (which again, perfectly fine). These two ends of the spectrum butt heads.

From what I have seen the vast majority of gamers falls somewhere on that line of "I don't care if it's grey plastic/cardboard tubes" and "I refuse to play with anything other than fully painted, fully based, 100% [insert model manufacturers name] model" - but for those same people I think it really just comes down to effort. So as to your question "Do you wanna give us a chance?" - Are your conversions believable? Do they fit the theme you're going for? Do they add to the immersion of playing the game? Basically - did you put any effort into it? Or are you just wanting to throw dice and play a game? If you answered yes to any those questions - sure, because I enjoy playing the game and I enjoy the hobby aspects as well. But for me, playing with cool models, fully painted, and on an awesome table is just...better. :)

[Denzark]

There is a difference between a pure proxy and a scratchbuild or heavy conversion. If the proxy is recognisable for what it stands in for and also is about the right size, then most people would kick off. Now, looking at your site, I have no idea what that cheese grater thing is. If you try and tell me it is a nob biker or a stomper I may have a problem.

And this is the root of people's problems with it.

[Nogle]

I can't see this, guess its because I don't have facebook.

I've started adding khorne deamons to my world eater army as allies/summoning. I'm waiting for plastic hounds, so I was thinking of using fenrisian wolves. also I have 7 thunderwolves I was thinking of using as blood crushers till I can afford the real models. probably have some extra bloodletters I could put on the thunderwolves as riders, Is that ok?

[Pssyche]

No. Not ever.

Massive 30K per team Apocalypse Battle at Easter last year.
One guy on our team had bought an Eldar Phantom Titan specially for the event.
He was on a different part of the board to me, so I didn't clock what was happening.
He moved it forward and it got mugged by some Ork Proxies.
The Proxies were pink plastic poker chips.
The Ork player cheated him into believing his Titan was destroyed.
It was only after the event that it all came to light.
£500+ of model knocked down by BORROWED pink plastic poker chips.

My mate sold his Titan within a week and the rest of his models within a month, because he felt that bitter about it and he's never played since.
And I don't blame him.
He'd put a lot of time effort and money into his hobby and his enjoyment was denied by a cheating, proxying scumbag with no conscience nor sportsmanship about him.
And before anybody says anything about him trying to buy victory, our team's Super Heavies were vastly outnumbered by the Chaos/Ork Axis we were up against.

Nah, no proxying when I'm playing.

[Lord Krungharr]

Some proxies are just stupid, like the little Trolls on that Facebook group standing in for who knows what. Some are very cool and fit in with the 40k or Fantasy environment at large like that Skeletor into Nagash model, which is more of a conversion in my view.

Generally a proxy in games I've played are 'these Blood Angels count as Grey Knights today'. That's acceptable in most cases, though perhaps not on some tournaments. If the model has a meltagun, and someone wants to count as a plasma gun, most of the time I'm okay with that so long as the enemy remembers. But too many things like that are bad, messes up the game.

But substituting plain old toys, even if they somehow fit on the right sized bases, is not cool. Converting toys might be cool, but not always. So yes, I agree, efforts of conversion become something other than proxy models.

[Takerukau]

I am mostly anti-proxy. If you are casually getting together with a buddy and want to proxy something to see if you like how it plays in a test game before buying or covnverting the minis, I think it's cool as long as its not done at a tournament or event, or even casual play among strangers. Playtesting is part of the game, but lame proxy-isms are annoying to deal with, and I would rather not play against someone I don't know who is using a lot of proxy stuff (especially if its unpainted garbage or bottle caps etc. trying to represent cool stuff). Takes a lot of the fun out of the game. I'm pretty picky about bare plastic models on the table too.

[Morgrim]

I've playtested models as other models. I've used a wingless balrog as a talos for a few weeks while trying to work out if I wanted one or two of them in my army and nobody objected; but on the other hand it is a model of about the right size that doesn't look like it should be something else and I checked first.

[Da Gargoyle]

I would say no to proxies also. Having gamed against them the problem I have is that you have to keep in mind what they are while your opponent automatically knows what your wysiwyg force is. Further, there is the suspicion that proxies are used because you need something that you did not bring to deal with an unexpected threat in your opponents force. Just use the force you bring and keep the field level. If you really like a unit type buy the thing. I once converted a 50's Russian MiG into an Ork Fighta Bomba (1/48 scale works well), and this was before they released flyer kits. And while you could see the Ork in it and it was red as; I never imposed it on others in gaming. It was just a house rules thing with a few of my closest hated enemies. So I can see the appeal but I know how easy it is to abuse the privilege.

[Vincenzo Bruni]

Of course you need some examples of our work.

[Denzark]

Of course you need some examples of our work.

Let me see if I get it.

1. Some sort of kroot.

2. Genestealer cult limo. Love the model, what is is for 40K? Chimera? Where is the turret, where is the hatch for measuring range from.

3. A WWI tank, probably the 1:32 Emhar kit. Looks good, what is it though? Too big for LR.

4. (and also 7) - 7 looks very much like something I saw on tanks and trolls, some sort of heresy era flier. No idea what they are, should they be that big, bigger? The only piece I recognise is a predator turret on the top of 7 - you ain't telling me that's a thunderhawk cannon and it cannot traverse downwards...

5. Stomper. Love it - that to me is a scratch build not a proxy.

6. Mycetic spore - do they even exist anymore? Nice but easily recognisable.

8 and 9. Orky vehicles. No idea about the first, second looks like the super heavy doomhammer or fortress, can't remember the name. Ork vehicles have always been a grey area - although in GW house tourney rules, if there is a model, it has to be used - which stops people having giant battlewagons that are already 14 inches across the table from the start.

So with the exception of 5 and 6 (stompa and spore) you see the problem with proxies - although I readily concede the modelling is good.

[Vincenzo Bruni]

Of course not every model show here is actually "ours", many of them are just found on the net. But our community is right now 483 members-strong.

[DETHMOKIL]

I like how imagination is all of a sudden MY burden, and not something YOU use to make your models more creative.

If this was on /tg/ I'd call you a troll.

[GrauGeist]

Of course you need some examples of our work.

Of these, only big Kroot looks good; the rest is meh to terrible. 10% pass rate needs work.

[Pssyche]

Of course you need some examples of our work.


Of course not every model show here is actually "ours", many of them are just found on the net. But our community is right now 483 members-strong.


Our work...
Not actually "ours'"...

Make your mind up.

[Ben_S]

2. Genestealer cult limo. Love the model, what is is for 40K? Chimera? Where is the turret, where is the hatch for measuring range from.


I think I've seen this before. At least, if it is the one I'm thinking of then the owner ran the Cult as Tyranids, using Brood Brothers as counts-as Termagants and the Limos were Tervigons 'spawning' (disembarking) more Brood Brothers/Termagants.

I can't immediately recognise what all of those things are, but I'd say they all look like conversions/scratchbuilds rather than proxies to me. I wouldn't have a problem facing any of them.

[Anggul]

I think 'proxy' is the wrong word and that's why you're getting such negative reactions.

It's more of a scratch-build and conversion page. Looks to have some decent stuff on it, especially that Skeletor/Nagash one.

[CoffeeGrunt]

I quite like the idea of using Aerial Hunter-Killers from Terminator as Counts-As Tau Barracudas or something, but then I've loved the design of those since I first saw The Terminator. It's a very sleek model kit at least.

[Arkhan Land]

I personally have built all sorts of wacky creations, luckily just picked up a whole set of 90s Aliens toys for 50 cents a piece, you bet damn right im making another Harridan and a Heirodule. But...

You don't bring a bottle of stove-made rum to the bar. Don't bring anything that's not a real model to the store.
Stay home and drink your cheap-made booze, and play with your converted x-men toys with your friends.

[gensu11]

I don't have a problem with conversions or scratch built models, or the occasional "this melta is a plasma today", but that is about the limit for me. Using WWII models for Ork or Guard can turn out some good looking models, but even then, if you are turning a Sherman into a leman russ, modify it properly so that the hull and sponson weapons are identifiable. The original Apoc book even had a small section on including your non-standard models. I think Apoc is the best place for these kind of models, but I definitely would not play against the example that was given earlier, a squad of plastic poker chips representing an ambiguous Ork threat.

[Adrian R Gosling]

No.
I second this.

[DCompanyChris]

I think you have to separate proxy from conversion from "counts as"

Proxy is a stand in. I'm less cool with a straight proxy because I have to understand what the model coming at me can do, but that of course means its situation specific. Proxy is frequently abused.

Conversions of non GW Models into gaming stuff....it the model is cool looking, and represents the GW model...I'm for it. We have some very creative ork players in my extended group....and the ramschackle nature of ork warmachines is taken to the limit. I know such things can be abused, but that's not what I am talking about...I'm talking about an application of creativity that adds to the feel of the table top. This should be encouraged.

"Counts as" can be my favorite. I love themed armies, and some of the best armies I have ever seen in terms of concept were "counts as" armies. Again I favor the creativity over simple "counts as" which is really just a fancy proxy.

[40kGamer]

I think you have to separate proxy from conversion from "counts as"


Yes! Counts as and Conversions add flavor and if executed well are a work of art.

Proxy = no

[averykess]

Some proxies are just stupid, like the little Trolls on that Facebook group standing in for who knows what. Some are very cool and fit in with the 40k or Fantasy environment at large like that Skeletor into Nagash model, which is more of a conversion in my view.

I believe the Trolls were proxying Trolls. I have no problem with this. It is funny, and you know instantly that those are trolls.

- - - Updated - - -


I don't have a problem with conversions or scratch built models, or the occasional "this melta is a plasma today", but that is about the limit for me....

This is the kind of proxying that bothers me the most. I see a melta now I have to remember it is a plasma, every turn, as does my opponent. At best this is confusing, at worst, it enables cheating.

[Sandrat]

No. Not ever.

Massive 30K per team Apocalypse Battle at Easter last year.
One guy on our team had bought an Eldar Phantom Titan specially for the event.
He was on a different part of the board to me, so I didn't clock what was happening.
He moved it forward and it got mugged by some Ork Proxies.
The Proxies were pink plastic poker chips.
The Ork player cheated him into believing his Titan was destroyed.
It was only after the event that it all came to light.
£500+ of model knocked down by BORROWED pink plastic poker chips.

My mate sold his Titan within a week and the rest of his models within a month, because he felt that bitter about it and he's never played since.
And I don't blame him.
He'd put a lot of time effort and money into his hobby and his enjoyment was denied by a cheating, proxying scumbag with no conscience nor sportsmanship about him.
And before anybody says anything about him trying to buy victory, our team's Super Heavies were vastly outnumbered by the Chaos/Ork Axis we were up against.

Nah, no proxying when I'm playing.


Then you and your friend are gaming for the wrong reasons.

[40kGamer]

This is the kind of proxying that bothers me the most. I see a melta now I have to remember it is a plasma, every turn, as does my opponent. At best this is confusing, at worst, it enables cheating.

I played at a tournament where a player listed what weapons his marines had but did not represent them on the models. He neglected to tell me that he had a magical moveable melta gunner that appeared in the units where and when he was most needed and yet managed to move out of harm's way when it was time to allocate wounds. At some point it just isn't worth arguing with this crap. As irritated as I was with him I blamed the TO for allowing such stupidity at the event. So frustrating.

[The Madman]

None of those are proxies. proxies are to my knowledge stand-ins for a model you don't possess or wish to test out a strategy before investing in the models. proxying at best is using skeletons with spears as skeletons with bows; at worst is a carnifex as drink bottle or a bunch of lego bricks as a squad of men. everything I've seen from your facebook page are conversions of varying effort and skill.

[Xaric]

This might be shallow of me but if you have to resort to proxy's (unless testing a units use) then don't even bother with this hobby the hobby is expensive and if the person you are playing has to fork out all that money time and effort into making his army you should in turn do the same. If you must complain with "But i don't have the money" then don't even start as i said its expensive this hobby and it is a luxury to have.

To me i will only class a model as a proxy
if it does not fit the profile in the rules and the size is unreasonable (being more then 20% bigger or smaller then the model this is to prevent unfair advantage)

Anything else is a conversion in my eyes.

[Psyfer]

Personally, it boils down to the answer to the following question:

'Can it be clearly identified as what it't representing?'

If the answer is yes, then I have no issue. If the answer is no, then you need a better proxie.

As for the 'this hobby is expensive' argument, really? That's elitist BS. Not only that, but it's the same elitist BS GW uses for jacking up it's prices every year.

[Brandon Frazier]

When my group plays, we proxy sometimes if we're trying new models or builds, like I'm going to be starting nids, but I wanted to try them before I buy them. So if you just can't field something, sure why not? If we're at a competition, no, get you're soda cans out of here

[Demonus]

We allow counts as often. Pink Horrors are Plaguebearers. That Daemon Prince is a Greater Daemon. etc.
very rarely have we allowed full proxies. a guy used beer bottles for his drop pods as his dp hadn't come in from Ebay yet. Shame as I had 5 he could have borrowed had he only asked.

[-Tom-]

This is the kind of proxying that bothers me the most. I see a melta now I have to remember it is a plasma, every turn, as does my opponent. At best this is confusing, at worst, it enables cheating.


Surely though, as ideal as it would be to be WYSIWYG all the time, it's just not always so cut and dry. For example, the old plastic Eldar guardians from 2nd ed. came in a single pose, with lasguns. Back in those days, you were allowed lasguns on them, and shuriken catapults were a small points cost upgrade. Nowadays Shuriken catapults are the default and you can't even give them lasguns at all. If you're using those models, and haven't modified the guns, they're not going to be properly WYSIWYG but I also think that should cause much confusion?

Similarly, if you got hold of the vehicle upgrades pack from Forgeworld that fit the falcons / wave serpents, and glue the bits on, what if they you're playing a game where for points cost you need a more stripped down version without upgrades? Does the fact that you've got the bits on confuse your opponent? Should everyone have worked out some way to magnetize them on, or just have bought x number of identical kits all fitted out with different variations of possible upgrades?

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you that too much of it can be confusing. But, on the other hand, there's also ways to keep it simple, like if you say to your opponent something like "All my wave serpents are the same build, they're all just twin linked scatter, shuriken cannon, and no other upgrades". Then it probably doesn't matter if one of them doesn't have any weapons on the turret at all.


On the topic of proxies themselves, I agree with the general theme of the thread that there is a big difference between a conversion / counts as - "rule of cool" applies here surely? Whereas just using a proxy, like using a shoe to be a wraithknight should be avoided. It might be fair enough as a one off between friends where one is trying to decide if such and such a model is any good, and something they want to buy, but surely it just wouldn't be allowed in a tournament anyway and whatever people decide to allow in their own friendly games is up to them?

[Gotthammer]

Actual photo of BoLS Lounge user Xaric:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BxMEqK5CUAA7ZSF.png:large

[40kGamer]

That pic is priceless.

[Xaric]

well i speak the truth and i am intitaled to my optional you may follow it if you wish or deny it that's up to you because there are people out there who will throw i cant afford it to a video game and pirate it but at the end of the day you dont need said things to live hence why there a luxury.

[cadho3]

I have seen red Solo Cups used as drop pods... I have no problem with that in a friendly garage match. It's a one-time use thing that becomes a stationary object. It also costs a pretty penny to field a lot of them when it may just be for a scenario. My buddy and I have also used non GW minis for 40k because they looked cool. I will try to replace the weaponry to bring it into line with 40k so there's no confusion. In public games/tournaments I don't think proxies are appropriate. Scratch builds and custom models/ conversions are ok as long as they are agreed upon at the outset.

[YourSwordisMine]

I'll just leave this here...

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_v-QnkPLGATg/Sup073EHzkI/AAAAAAAABDg/uI_wvhsVvFc/grav2.jpg

[40kGamer]

I'll just leave this here...

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_v-QnkPLGATg/Sup073EHzkI/AAAAAAAABDg/uI_wvhsVvFc/grav2.jpg

Ah the old repurposed deodorant container from RT days. Back when a plastic spoon could be pressed into service to act as the turret for the TL guns on a wave serpent and when the VDR allowed you to build whatever you wanted for your list.

[AndrewDart]

I'll just leave this here...

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_v-QnkPLGATg/Sup073EHzkI/AAAAAAAABDg/uI_wvhsVvFc/grav2.jpg

The above was "proxied" in a time where tank models didn't exist.. I'm all for converted proxies, but if it doesn't show effort and a real desire to improve the quality of the game with the proxy, then the overall effect cheapens the game.

Can maxmini weapons proxy in for GW weapons? Yeah, sure. Can a piece of garbage, poker chips, or a potato represent a vehicle? Hell no. But if a guy scratch builds a Titan from plastic boxes, tunes, plastic sheets - that's a different story. Effort is the key to allowing proxies, in my mind.

[Faultie]

I'll just leave this here...

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_v-QnkPLGATg/Sup073EHzkI/AAAAAAAABDg/uI_wvhsVvFc/grav2.jpg

Oh man, I have that old Citadel Journal that those premiered in. Also had a very cool Arbites wagon thing.

[Casey Brown]

I'll just leave this here...

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_v-QnkPLGATg/Sup073EHzkI/AAAAAAAABDg/uI_wvhsVvFc/grav2.jpg

Exactly! I was just about to post that same image. The first ever 40k vehicle was that converted deodorant bottle, and they had instructions on how you could make your own.

Here's my 2 cents: If you lovingly convert/scratchbuild/whatever-you-wanna-call-it a model and we can both agree on what it represents, then I'll play against you.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Actual photo of BoLS Lounge user Xaric:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/BxMEqK5CUAA7ZSF.png:large

You summed up my thoughts better than my thoughts summed themselves.

- - - Updated - - -

Additionally, I think I agree that Effort is key in deciding whether a proxy/counts-as will be okay to field. If it's something someone's clearly designed and built from the start for a certain look, rather than an object grabbed off the side.

Now, I play in a store where most players have unpainted armies or simply horribly painted ones. It's sad but true, I've tried to push painted armies as have the store owners, but ultimately it's me and a couple of vets who field painted or mostly painted armies, (I'm a couple of dozen Conscripts and a Leman Russ Executioner away from a fully painted 2K Guard force.) I personally aim to take as long as it takes to paint and build a mini, so my few months of playing Guard has only just seen me reach the point where I can field 1500pts painted, depending on the list I build.

There's a lot of, "these Devastators all have Lascannons, but the kit came with two so a couple are Plasma Cannons," or, "the Meltaguns in this Wolf squad are both Plasma Guns," etc, etc. My armies are mostly WYSIWYG, but occasionally I'll trial a Chimera as another Devildog, or the Meltaguns in my Gue'vesa Veteran squad will be Plasma for a match.

As long as everything's agreed on and explained, it's fine IMO. We have had a new Necron player start a month ago who's been fielding 2K lists with 1500pts of proxies minis. Irritatingly, said player is also an extreme powergamer, and the cobbled-together mishmash of unpainted models has been sweeping games.

[GrauGeist]

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_v-QnkPLGATg/Sup073EHzkI/AAAAAAAABDg/uI_wvhsVvFc/grav2.jpg

That is a scratchbuild / conversion, not a proxy. And a good one.

By the Rule of Cool, it would be allowed.

The Ork stuff is lazy and crappy.

[Denzark]

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_v-QnkPLGATg/Sup073EHzkI/AAAAAAAABDg/uI_wvhsVvFc/grav2.jpg

That is a scratchbuild / conversion, not a proxy. And a good one.

By the Rule of Cool, it would be allowed.

The Ork stuff is lazy and crappy.

The Grav Attack is a scratch build - it even had its own rules. This model is in effect number one of a handmade run of one and doesn't feature in a conversation on proxying.

[Path Walker]

A proxy is, as most people have said, using an object ot an existing model to take the place of a model in the game, if you're playing with a friend on the expressed reasons of trying out a models rules before you buy one, thats one thing, its not for me, I'm all about the cool models, I couldn't give a monkeys if its effective in a game, I'll still use it and I wouldn't like my opponent to do it either, as it ruins the look of the game and my suspension of disbelief, I wouldn't be the guy to go to test out tactics on anyway, it would bore me.

That said, a cool custom conversion is another thing altogether, but, when there is an existing model and you've converted your own to save money and it looks like ****e (as most of them do, seriously guy with unpatinted papercraft manticore missiles on top of a chimera, **** off.) then it again, ruins what I like about the game.

[Jose A. Fabian]

Pardon me if I go in a tangent but a lot of people touch upon this subject.

In this case cost =/= quality e.g. a Tamiya model vs a GW model. Compare an M113 APC's cost and amount of detail to a rhino. http://www.amazon.com/Tamiya-Models-M113A2-Desert-Version/dp/B000WN6SM4/ref=sr_1_2?s=toys-and-games&ie=UTF8&qid=1410894839&sr=1-2&keywords=Tamiya+m113 Vs http://www.games-workshop.com/en-US/Space-Marine-Rhino

Same cost, 37 dollars, how can GW be considered top quality or expensive in any way besides inflation of price?

[Wolfshade]

I think the trouble is that we often mix and match the two terms as they are very interchangeable.

Consider my flamer marine in a tactical squad, only this game instead of being a flamer her is actually a meltaguner.

Now is is flamer a count-as meltagun, or am I proxying the flamer as a melta?

I mean both work fine.

I think that when we see something we have an expectation and also that that is dependent on what/where we are.

So, for instance, I think in most situations someone wouldn't have a problem with the swap as described above. However, if I were to be playing in a tournament, then I would expect incredulation that the flamer was a melta.

I think that whatever it is it should be easily identifiable.

If I were playing my mates and I explained that I was trying out a different build then using counters or paper-cutouts while I trial an idea or two, I imagine that that would be fine, but what I am using must be about the same sort of size and I would also expect that if that this went on for awhile that it might be irksome.

If I were playing at my flgs I personally dislike things that are less than 3 colour minimum.

I think one of things that irritates people is how sometimes these things can shift. Stood infront of swarms the flamer is a flamer, infront of heavy infantry boom it is a gravgun/plasma gun, sneaking up on the back of tank behold it is a meltagun. Or it changes which model has the upgrade etc.

I think we know what we like, and what we don't like however trying to write it down is harder to do.

Of course the one thing that completely overrules all of these it is the rule of cool.

If it looks good then it really doesn't matter about anything else.

[Joseph Dorson]

I use a few like this for my boyz instead of the usual buggy, because lets be realistic the current model sucks. I do have a lot of the old plastic war buggies and the footprint is the same even if this one is a bit taller as of yet I have had no complaints from people I have played against.

Obviously this is more of a conversion than a proxy, but WYSIWYG only goes so far - I have both versions of Ghazghkull Thraka if I tried to use the old one in a tourney I would expect people to be annoyed but following strict rules is legal, I also have all the versions of the Ork Dreadnought/Deff dread RT model is again a lot smaller than the newer ones. If I could use these legally, and I will continue to use my big gunz even though I will eventually get new models, is it fair to complain when someone uses something that is recognizable as what it represents?

On the other hand I feel that if you are proxying weapons such as the space marines mentioned above you really have no excuse not to at least mark them in some clear way - this is something anyone who plays Blood bowl leagues or necromunda and mordheim campaigns runs into.

1117411175

[Arkhan Land]

Counts as I always saw as being the way in which older models without rules could be used in modern 40k gameplay, such as RT Eldar Scout Robots being Counts as Rangers.

Proxying is the placement of a model for a model you do not have with you with another as an example of something normal and acceptable, a eldar player uses a spare carnifex model as his summoned demon prince or worse yet soda can.

Heavily converting third party models for use in 40k is something altogether different. i think the greatest thing about third party models is the ability to bring an alternate look to existing ranges (3rd party knight titans/Bikes/Helmets/Guns) and also for the well though out use of extra bits to modify everyday items/toys.

as an example here's a body I drudged up and used some Aliens toys wings on now, made this a bit ago completely out of spare mawlock bits/glands/etc.
11176

[btk_kilroy_winterhart]

My gaming group had a guy show up to a game with a Lego Baneblade tank. All cannons and guns were clearly visible and the base was of the correct size. He did however asked if it was ok to use before the battle began, being lego built not that it was a superheavy. I liked the idea of him using it (besides he is on disability and can not afford such a model). It test our ability to kill it and his to use it in an army. So if it can look like what it is suppose to be, I am fine with it. Just don't use a Imperial Statue as a stand in for a Riptide.

[GrauGeist]

a eldar player uses a spare carnifex model as his summoned demon prince.

LOLWUT? Eldar don't summon Demons. Even Dark Eldar don't do that. Eldar might field an Avatar, which is roughly the same size as a Carnifex. But no Demons. Eldar and Chaos just don't mix.

[lobster-overlord]

mim
LOLWUT? Eldar don't summon Demons. Even Dark Eldar don't do that. Eldar might field an Avatar, which is roughly the same size as a Carnifex. But no Demons. Eldar and Chaos just don't mix.



they do when fighting Grey Knights. .. At least in 4th ed they, havn't kept up with gk since then.

[sebi81]

LOLWUT? Eldar don't summon Demons. Even Dark Eldar don't do that. Eldar might field an Avatar, which is roughly the same size as a Carnifex. But no Demons. Eldar and Chaos just don't mix.

Eldar can take the malefic daemonology as a discipline... So yes, it is possible for eldar to summon a greater demon at least rules wise.

[Wolfshade]

My gaming group had a guy show up to a game with a Lego Baneblade tank. All cannons and guns were clearly visible and the base was of the correct size. He did however asked if it was ok to use before the battle began, being lego built not that it was a superheavy. I liked the idea of him using it (besides he is on disability and can not afford such a model). It test our ability to kill it and his to use it in an army. So if it can look like what it is suppose to be, I am fine with it. Just don't use a Imperial Statue as a stand in for a Riptide.

I think that this really sums it up.

The person/people you are playing with need to be ok with it, and the person bringing such a thing must be ok with being told "no".

The whole gaming experiance and the "social contract" junk.

[Mr Mystery]

Counts as I always saw as being the way in which older models without rules could be used in modern 40k gameplay, such as RT Eldar Scout Robots being Counts as Rangers.

Proxying is the placement of a model for a model you do not have with you with another as an example of something normal and acceptable, a eldar player uses a spare carnifex model as his summoned demon prince or worse yet soda can.

Heavily converting third party models for use in 40k is something altogether different. i think the greatest thing about third party models is the ability to bring an alternate look to existing ranges (3rd party knight titans/Bikes/Helmets/Guns) and also for the well though out use of extra bits to modify everyday items/toys.

as an example here's a body I drudged up and used some Aliens toys wings on now, made this a bit ago completely out of spare mawlock bits/glands/etc.
11176

Wot he said.

Scratchbuilds/non-GW base conversions - that's one thing. By no means 100% acceptable (see the goon that used LotR horses with a Bloodletter plonked on top as Bloodcrushers. In a tournament. On the smaller horse bases....) For the most part, that's actually very very cool, and an accepted part of the hobby.

Proxies? Generally speaking it's likely to be a no from me, but there are exceptions. For instance, in every group there are those who don't have a great deal of money for the hobby. By all means they can proxy in units they're thinking of buying, give them a dry run as it were. Long as it's known what's what - that's cool. Likewise - 'oh FFS, I forgot my Bloodthirster, and he's my General' - much more open to proxies than 'LoL! I summon Daemon Prince, but don't have the model, despite the summoning rules specifically saying it's therefore a wasted casting, I'll just use this glass LOLPOWERGAMER!' That's right out that sort of behaviour!

Ultimately? It's the 12th Commandment - Don't be a shortened form of Richard about it.

And in case anyone is wondering? 11th Commandment is 'cover thine own bahookie'

[40kGamer]

11th Commandment is 'cover thine own bahookie'

This one should have been higher on the list. :p

I'm all about the visual aspect of the hobby so conversions or counts as armies that are well done and fit the 40k world are potentially awesome. Saying this Carnifex is a Wraithknight just doesn't cut it for me.

- - - Updated - - -


LOLWUT? Eldar don't summon Demons. Even Dark Eldar don't do that. Eldar might field an Avatar, which is roughly the same size as a Carnifex. But no Demons. Eldar and Chaos just don't mix.

Eldar can summon Daemons in 7th and are actually pretty good at it. Silly rule for sure but perfectly legal.

[iandanger]

I'll play against whatever, I am big into converting and having a custom feel to my army, but I don't expect my opponents to have my budget or attention to detail. Bring a list, bring whatever you want, I'll play anything, I prefer to enable games rather than exclude people, 40k players are scarce enough that I'd never turn one away, even the ones I don't enjoy playing against.

Personally, I love using other models as it adds variety. These days, I rarely go to 40k models first when it comes to new projects. I'm planning on using a Dreamforge Leviathan Mortis (converted heavily to look nurgley) as a Knight Lancer. I have beastmen and early 90's dwarves in my Inquisition warbands, along with Psykers made from Mantic's Ghouls. I'm converting Tamiya's Hannomag model into Tauroxes for my Inquisition Militarum Tempestus and Adeptus Arbites (the Scions are Dreamforge Storm Troopers and the Arbites are converted Scouts). I also do some sculpting and casting, etc.

There is one set of true "proxies" in my collection, models that are by and large unmodified. My Tyrant's Legion are composed of the Autogun Chaos Cultists, as their ragged style matched the Tyrant's Legion fluff really well. Their tattoos and icons even match the Maelstrom Warders symbols pretty well.

But yeah, as others have said, what we're dealing with here are conversions, not proxies, here are a few of mine:

A Daemon Prince (I've since added plague drone wings to him) and Herald on Palanquin
https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2893/13437120355_048c03e39e_m.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/mtoKJT)
100_0798 (https://flic.kr/p/mtoKJT) by ianlogsdon (https://www.flickr.com/people/43264851@N08/), on Flickr

My MT Scions, Dreamforge bodies with Pig Iron heads and mostly Wargames Factory arms, around a Tamiya Taurox Conversion (I call it the Badab Pattern Taurox, I am working on another one where I'll cast the upgrades so I can make a bunch, as I am using them for both my Inquisitorial Stormtroopers and my Arbites):
https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7433/14138469013_952092212a_m.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/nxnmg8)
Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/nxnmg8) by ianlogsdon (https://www.flickr.com/people/43264851@N08/), on Flickr

My Keeper of Secrets
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3858/15083802702_d045823459_m.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/oYUr2Q)
Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/oYUr2Q) by ianlogsdon (https://www.flickr.com/people/43264851@N08/), on Flickr

One of my Slaanesh Daemon Princes
https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3843/15083804392_f65b04f9a4_m.jpg (https://flic.kr/p/oYUrwY)
Untitled (https://flic.kr/p/oYUrwY) by ianlogsdon (https://www.flickr.com/people/43264851@N08/), on Flickr

[Arkhan Land]

'LoL! I summon Daemon Prince, but don't have the model, despite the summoning rules specifically saying it's therefore a wasted casting, I'll just use this glass LOLPOWERGAMER!' That's right out that sort of behaviour!

Ultimately? It's the 12th Commandment - Don't be a shortened form of Richard about it.

And in case anyone is wondering? 11th Commandment is 'cover thine own bahookie'

I know everyone has been freaking out about the demon prince example, but everyone please calm down, it was an example I'm sure we all understand the difference.
it would be interesting to note how GW seems to slowly moving towards more offical rules like the d-prince clause or the end of wrecks, etc. to make it a game where these sort of things are absent beyond control of the gamers themselves.
Im all about games with fully painted minis, I dont terribly enjoy seeing coke cans and wont miss them if they're eradicated eventually

[Cayus]

No.

Grumpy Cat? ... Is that you? XDDDDD

In my opinion there is just a point to keep in mind in order to allow or not allow the presence of non original Games Worshop's models in a game, and that point is the kind of game to play.

If the battle is set by any official Games Workshop organization, let's say a GW shop, or franchise, the most probably is that using non original models won't be allowed.

If the battle is set by an independant games club, or by a group of friends, it all comes down to agree in advance what is allowed and what is not. After that, all set in the table accomplishing the agreed can fight.

On the other side, I must admit that I hate playing against unpaitend models, since I always try to set on the tables my painted units in order to improve the visual aspect of the game. For the same reason, I love discovering proxies, or scratch buildings etc that are really well built and painted. I wouldn't mind losing a game against those fliers in the pictures shown in previous posts.

[Path Walker]

Grumpy Cat? ... Is that you? XDDDDD


Don't do this.

[Pssyche]

Then you and your friend are gaming for the wrong reasons.

Go troll somebody else.
I'm not falling for it.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Go troll somebody else.
I'm not falling for it.

To be fair to him, if a single loss in an Apocalypse game has someone selling off their entire army and never playing again, the game is not for them.

[40kGamer]

To be fair to him, if a single loss in an Apocalypse game has someone selling off their entire army and never playing again, the game is not for them.

Well loosing to a poker chip army would not endear one to the hobby. I can see a new player thinking that if this is the norm of the hobby I'll find something else. I dropped an entire series of tournaments after 2 really bad games. In both of these my opponent was using proxied units which IMO should never be allowed in public events.

[Mystery.Shadow]

This is a pic from an Apocalypse game:

http://album.warpshadow.com/v/HiveFleetMysteryShadow/Memorial+Day+Massacre+2013/05270041.JPG.html

Those are beverage-can Drop Pods with Salamanders ALL proxied to have combi-meltas. How do you think that Eldar Player felt after having his Phantom destroyed by that?

[Wolfshade]

Of course if the opponet was happy that is one thing...

My gaming group to try and stem our grey hordes played with the rule that all armies had the Hatred: Unpainted. So anyone shooting at an unpainted miniature gained that rule.

[Mr Mystery]

I know everyone has been freaking out about the demon prince example, but everyone please calm down, it was an example I'm sure we all understand the difference.
it would be interesting to note how GW seems to slowly moving towards more offical rules like the d-prince clause or the end of wrecks, etc. to make it a game where these sort of things are absent beyond control of the gamers themselves.
Im all about games with fully painted minis, I dont terribly enjoy seeing coke cans and wont miss them if they're eradicated eventually

Was just sticking to the example.

Coming without a key model because you forgot it is one thing. But using a power where you don't even own the appropriate model? Quite another :)

[40kGamer]

Of course if the opponet was happy that is one thing...

My gaming group to try and stem our grey hordes played with the rule that all armies had the Hatred: Unpainted. So anyone shooting at an unpainted miniature gained that rule.

That is a brilliant house rule.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Wow, I've never seen someone quit because of proxies, that's fairly hilarious IMO. It's a bit like quitting a sport because God dammit Jerry that's a tennis racket not a badminton one! Sweet Jesus I'm just going to quit because you clearly are unprepared for the rigmaroles of organised play at this current moment in time!

[40kGamer]

It is hard to imagine someone quitting the entire hobby solely because of proxies. I would have to guess they really weren't that invested in things to begin with or they would have just dropped that gaming venue and found something more suitable.

[Blight-Company]

As I see it if a proxy looks like that which it is taking the place of then it's ok. If someone brings just any toy tank and tells me it's a land raider or that Dixie cups are drop pods I'm going to say no.
Fyi the A74 in my profile pic was a super heavy transport per the old pre4th Edition Chapter Approved rules.

[John Bower]

Of course if the opponet was happy that is one thing...

My gaming group to try and stem our grey hordes played with the rule that all armies had the Hatred: Unpainted. So anyone shooting at an unpainted miniature gained that rule.

Now this.... I like.

[CoffeeGrunt]

We're debating doing two House Rules for every mini on the table. Preferred Enemy: Unpainted Models, and Hatred: Proxies.

That said, how would people hear feel about, say, using Catachan minis as counts-as Kroot? I feel the Kroot actually exemplify the light-armoured Forest hugger feel Catachan would have in a way the current Codex doesn't allow. Plus I could model them with wicked Stub Rifles and Bowie Knives.

[Arkhan Land]

Seeing as they are mercenaries it wouldnt be too crazy to assume one of the many traitorous/renegade gaurdsmen groups wouldnt hire out for paid work under the tau that said I would want them to have some sort of "long-gun" to match the kroot armament, and some sort of good non-chotic renegade designation, im guessing some bling and tattoos befitting a pirate of the stars

[lobster-overlord]

Plus I could model them with wicked Stub Rifles and Bowie Knives.

That is your key.... you're taking the time/effort to make them into what you are using rulewise.

Also, the unpainted/proxied models need some sort of reverse modifier as well. They don't get the hatred or preferred rules themselves, and they have a -1 to Toughness since afterall, they don't have any layers of paint which I assume would be accounted for in their main stat line.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Well the aim was to use them alongside normal Guard, as even with the big Allies nerf they would be a unit that wouldn't be too close to my gunline units. Was also debating some conversion for Fire Warriors + Darkstrider as a kinda up-gunned Bolter squad of Veterans in Carapace, but that's for another time.

[daboarder]

We're debating doing two House Rules for every mini on the table. Preferred Enemy: Unpainted Models, and Hatred: Proxies.

That said, how would people hear feel about, say, using Catachan minis as counts-as Kroot? I feel the Kroot actually exemplify the light-armoured Forest hugger feel Catachan would have in a way the current Codex doesn't allow. Plus I could model them with wicked Stub Rifles and Bowie Knives.

well the thing is, thats counts as, with fluff back up and everything, I'd go the extra mile and do the catachans up (how about kanak skull takers?)

[BeardMonk]

As with most of the issues and problems with the hobby, its all down to the community to enforce fair play. Its also down to TO’s to make hard calls and ban peoples armies from playing at event to stop the abuse of peoples good will. Take the following two now famous(infamous) examples that illustrate the issue that proxies etc can cause:

Chaos Dwarf Gnome Army (http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=117566)

Bucket of Bugs and Despicable Me proxies army (http://s6.zetaboards.com/The_UnderEmpire/topic/8894126/1/)

I can support the gnome/Chaos Dwarf army. Mainly because of the effort that has gone into it. And each model is clearly different and related to the unit from the army it represents. I would refuse to play against the bugs army and the despicable me army because there is non effort involved and the player is clearly taking the P8SS.

In our club don’t mind conversions. I actually think that good conversions push the game forward a bit and can produce some AWESOME results. We also have no issue with people using models for other ranges if it is of the same scale and fits in.

We only allow count-as if a model hasn’t been released for it and the proxy clearly represents the model it is standing in for. (Mantic Elves models for High Elves for example).

However for Warmachine/Hordes no proxies, stand ins or count-as are allowed as that is the stated rules.

[Wolfshade]

I love this:

http://i668.photobucket.com/albums/vv50/Annie_crochet/cw2.jpg
http://www.beastsofwar.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/Games-Workshop-Great-Taurus.jpg

Brilliant fun conversion and you can see what it is, the despicable me army I have the problem that I look at it and I don't see what they are. The Gnomes are brilliantly tongue in cheek and readily identifiable.

[legalsmash]

Here's what I think:

Depending on the degree of familiarity with the player, game setting and nature of proxy, I may or may not go along with it.
For years me and an old buddy played games throughout 2-4th edition in which due to a combination of youth, brokeness, and lack of a model type, would proxy things in game, he played orks and had a LOT of really tricked out model cars in the correct dimensions that were orked out in his trukk based army. We were kids and it was what we did, but followed the game rules and labeled everything clearly.

As college kids, we both still gamed together, our terrain was mostly proxied, my guard army was pretty much all GW stuff, with the exception of imperial armor/compendium units that didn't have models yet. He used orks, most of his stuff was similarly GW, painted and put together, but again, trucks and vehicles, especially larger ones tended to be scratchbuilts with a model car or toy car of some sort as a base.

We are adults now, he uses killburstas and killkrushas... based mostly off kitbashed models, ork stuff, in some cases moded out baneblades. His army is pretty much all GW, with a lot of conversion and tamiya stuff thrown in there for good measure. My IG army is stupid huge and with the exception of some command vehicles that I use for objectives/special things are GW/ not proxy. I will generally play with him any time without hestitation, we always label things out and even if a model is missing a kind of weapon (he has older orks may not have X or Y weapon on a killa kan, etc.

Contrast this with an individual, not really a friend, random FLGS guy in the south, who had a marine "army" that I would not want to play with : He used the legs.... just the effing legs. The individual would tell me the guy with blue sticky was plasma, yet midgame this would be a sergeant or a melta, etc. He had random objects for drop pods (more than the number of troop/elite, etc. choiices he had. He had no paint on any of this, not an undercoat, not a dip, nothing. This guy was a class 1 assclown and I feel bad for anyone who has to play them.

I don't refuse to play many people, I have to either have a bad experience with you due to rule shenanigans, power-gaming tabling activities or general unpleasantness. A person who thoughtfully makes a model, proxies a model reasonably (a similarly shape and dimension tank for a predator, ork looted tank, etc.) related to the model, with clear definition of what it is, or has alternate models (WG factory, etc.) that are well painted, I'm cool with. I'd prefer to play them than someone with unpainted, generally unassembled plastic. I won't however, see the point of getting all my crap off my shelves to play against green army men led by skeletor and micromachines.

My point here:

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

Back when I first started sculpting, I did an Enslaver army which was a counts as eldar jetbike list. If GW (and pretty much all other mini game companies) actually did some decent alien looking aliens (that arent f**king starship trooper "bugs"/xenomorph ripoffs), I wouldnt of had to do this in the first place, but then again if I hadnt done that army I wouldnt of started my own wargame that allowed me to be free from crap looking Soft SF aliens forever.

http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa207/embodiedscrew/40k%20Armies/Krell_Army/Krell_Army_Finished_01.jpg