Idle thought: why do crisis suits still have plasma rifles and missile pods?

[Lord Mayhem]

I was idly thinking about Tau weapons systems with the current codex, and it occurred to me; why don't the XVs carry rail rifles instead of plasma rifles, and a similar question; why missile pods instead of Ion rifles?
It actually started out with "why don't they carry them at all", then I considered the weapons systems largely overlap in function and purpose.
So here is the reasoning

Rail vs Plasma
Rules wise the two are very similar in function and points; the Rail rifle has a slight edge in AP and range. The AP difference only really helps for pens against vehicles, and the range difference is not a huge advantage given the size of the normal battlefield and mobility of forces. It also fits better with the Missile pod or Ion rifle for range bands. Gamewise I don't think a change would be a major game breaker (though since this is just a thought experiment, I've not tested it) and it would simplify the codex by eliminating one weapon (that is unique to XV suits)
Fluff wise, the plasma rifle does not really fit with the Tau weapons systems; unlike the imperium there is no family of plasma weapons, and the rail rifle fills the same niche. It is a stand alone weapon option , so replacing it would tidy things up, and help unify the look and feel of the Tau forces. The Tau now really have 3 Iconic weapons groups; Rail, Ion and Missile. Switching to a railrifle would simplify maintenance and resuppy, and would give the iconic XV series the iconic Tau weapon; railguns. Unless the plasma rifle is significantly cheaper and/or more reliable (hmm...High energy plasma physics...) theres no fluff reason to retain it that I see. The only real advantage to the plasma is no real ammunition requirement, but railrifle ammunition is not exactly bulky, so not a major advantage.

From a modeling perspective, it would seem like an ideal opportunity for GW to repackage XV-8s with the rail rifle replacing the plasma which should see a small boost in sales as people that already have suits get new ones for the rail rifles, or they could sell separate weapons sprues (at a noticible mark up) for conversions. It would be a relatively minor modification to the moulds (change the front of the plasma to a rail rifle barrel, done.) so should not be too expensive or difficult. As mentioned in the fluff comments, it would help unify the look of the tau forces.

A similar argument could be made for replacing Missile pods with Ion rifles, though the argument is not as strong; The ion rifle would fit the aesthetic of XV-8s better, and would be a more logical choice in many ways; missile ammo is bulky, making it a poor choice for sustained ops. The missile pod is the only real long range weapon for what is generally a special weapon rather than heavy weapon platform.
The weapon profiles are similar; the ion rifle loses a little range and a shot over 1/2 range, but gains the potential for blast and/or better antitank penetration, with a risk of overheating. The biggest advantage to the missile pod is in an air defense role, or just long range weight of fire. Switching XV-8s to ion rifles would reserve missiles for heavier platforms (XV-88, vehicles) again streamlining and unifying the Tau aesthetic.

I'm thinking to replace most of my plasmas with Rail rifles (if I can find enough spare parts) and just referring to them as Railrifle-LW's (Light weight) just as a style thing; "to adapt them to the battlesuit, the power to the magnets had to be slightly reduced to prevent interference with the suits power systems. As a result the penetration and range suffered a small reduction, but the difference was deemed within acceptable parameters (ie plasma rifle stats)"

I originally made a suit rail rifle using two flamer barrels end to end (surrounding it with shielding and cooling systems), but will now try to hunt down surplus rail rifles...

[This Dave]

You actually make good points. I think the reason the suits still have Plasma Rifles is that that's what the kit came with when the Tau were first introduced. The Rail Rifles didn't come out for a year or two afterwards and then only for Pathfinder infantry. Fluff wise maybe energy weapons are more efficient for the suits because they don't have to reload? Though that doesn't explain Missile Pods and Flamers.

One thing I really wish GW would do because it makes sense is to give the option to give a Hammerhead tank armed with an Ion Cannon Skyfire and maybe Interceptor since that would be a far better air defense option than that stupid Skyray.

[YorkNecromancer]

Fluff wise, the plasma rifle does not really fit with the Tau weapons systems; unlike the imperium there is no family of plasma weapons

Nonsense. All pulse weapons are plasma based! The plasma rifle is to the pulse rifle as the heavy bolter is to the bolter.

As for its role, it's the explicit MEQ killer - a short ranger weapon designed to murder heavy infantry, not vehicles. The Missile Pod is the light vehicle killer. The Rail Rifle is the medium-heavy vehicle killer; Rail weaponry is slow, requires careful aim; while noscope close range kills are nice in theory, they're not great in practise. Plasma rifles are assault weaponry designed for close engagements. Each one is a step up from the previous one, and fills a completely different tactical niche.

You raise some interesting points, but if you made Rail Rifles the new Plasma Rifle, all it would mean is that the Crisis Suit would turn into a super-long range killer. At the moment, each weapon option is fairly well balanced. Rail Rifles would just be Plasma Rifles but better in every way - and then what is the point of the Broadside?

The Crisis Suit is thematically an assault rig for short-range engagements. Hence, long-range weaponry is inappropriate.

[marful]

Nonsense. All pulse weapons are plasma based! The plasma rifle is to the pulse rifle as the heavy bolter is to the bolter.
Uhh... no. Not even close.

That comparison completely falls apart when you compare the weapons. The Burst Cannon is the Heavy Bolter equivalent.


Bolter, 24", S4, AP5, Rapid Fire
Storm Bolter, 24", S4, AP5, Assault 2
Heavy Bolter, 36", S5, AP4, Heavy 3

Pulse Rifle, 30", S5, AP5, Rapid Fire
Pulse Carbine, 18", S5, AP5, Assault 2
Burst Cannon, 18", S5, Ap5, Heavy 3

[marful]

I was idly thinking about Tau weapons systems with the current codex, and it occurred to me; why don't the XVs carry rail rifles instead of plasma rifles, and a similar question; why missile pods instead of Ion rifles?
It actually started out with "why don't they carry them at all", then I considered the weapons systems largely overlap in function and purpose.
As This Dave said, the Rail Rifle didn't come about until the second Tau Codex, and only then Pathfinders and Sniper Drones had access to it.


I see Tau Weaponry having three distinct branches: Electromagnetic Propulsion, Ion Weapons and Conventional Missiles. The Tau Pulse Rifles are actually a combination of Electromagnetic Propulsion and Ion Weapon technology.

If you read the fluff (you can find on several of the 40k wiki pages), they all describe the Pulse Rifle as being a linear magnetic accelerator that fires a solid slug. It just so happens that the electromagnetic propulsion system they use super-heats the slug as it electromagnetically accelerates it. The result is the projectile is now a super heated metallic gas that is now traveling at a high rate of speed towards the target. This is effectively a plasma weapon.

It just so happens that two of the three weapon branches Tau have mastered are necessary for Plasma Weapons. You need to be able to superheat a material to a gas, contain, harness, focus and accelerate it with a magnetic field.

What boggles me, is why the Tau weapons don't follow any logical progression in stats.

What the stats should be is as follows:

Pulse Rifle, 30", S5, AP3, Rapid Fire
Pulse Carbine 18", S5, AP3, Assault 2
Burst Cannon 18", S5, AP3, Heavy 3
Plasma rifle 24", S6, AP2, Rapid Fire

But, S5, AP3 basic weapons would be waaaaaaay to over powered.


Still, that being said, I do think the Rail Rifle should be an option for XV8 Crisis Suits.

I personally feel the Fusion Blaster is the truly out of place weapon in the Tau arsenal. But I could easily see the Tau quickly replicating the melta-gun after encountering it's effectiveness on the battlefield with their clashes against the imperium.

[Haighus]

"Pulse technology is common within the Fire caste, and all pulse
weapons utilise pulsed induction fields to propel lethal bursts of plasma over astonishing ranges."
Taken directly from the 6th Edition Tau codex.
"The pulse rifle uses an induction field to propel a particle, which reacts by breaking down to create a plasma pulse as it leaves the barrel."
Taken directly from the 4th Edition Tau codex.
To all intents and purposes, pulse weapons are plasma weapons. They are even affected by the Ulumeathi Plasma Syphon. Also, almost all plasma weapons, including the common Imperial ones, use technology similar to the railgun to fire the plasma bolt. Following this logic, the plasma rifle does have a family of weapons, although it is a bit different in function (and may follow the same design genesis as the fusion gun- the Tau may have seen the effectiveness of Imperial plasma designs, then modified their own plasma weaponry into a more destructive form).
Also, not much point separating electro-magnetic propulsion and ion weapons- they use electro-magnetic propulsion to fire the ions. TBH, Tau weapons probably just fall into 2 categories of EM propulsion and conventional weapons (mostly missile but also flamers).
I find it interesting that the Tau seem to have no or very little laser weaponry. The closest possible thing is that the fusion gun maybe some kind of thermal laser. I'm not sure what weapons the Tau get from FW, so they may have some laser weapons there.

[DarkLink]

Uhh... no. Not even close.

Actually, in the Tau codex, and according to GW in several other publications, pulse rifles are explicitly plasma based weapons.

[Houghten]

I find it interesting that the Tau seem to have no or very little laser weaponry. The closest possible thing is that the fusion gun maybe some kind of thermal laser.Markerlights! They're laser not-weaponry.


I'm not sure what weapons the Tau get from FW, so they may have some laser weapons there.
So far, just variants on existing weapons. Fusion cascades are weaker, shorter-ranged fusion blasters that fire d3 shots - a terrible trade-off. They didn't used to be shorter-ranged, but FW never updated them when the Tau Codex got updated. Phased ion blasters also never got updated, so their stats don't really match their fluff (an attempt to adapt the cyclic ion blaster for mass-production! ...that works nothing like any other ion weapon in any way, also isn't that basically ion rifles?). Pulse submunitions cannon are... I have no idea how those are supposed to work. I don't understand how pulse weaponry can have a submunition. Long-barreled burst cannon have double the range of regular burst cannon, which brings them up to the equivalent of a big shoota (you may now boggle). Heavy railguns are exactly what it says on the tin. I forget whether heavy ion cannon (or are they long-barreled ion cannon? Whatever the Tiger Shark has) got properly updated or not.

So, no laser weapons, and no new weapons for 8-series battlesuits.

[Path Walker]

Maybe they have trouble integrating the targeting systems for Rail rifles with the older targetting suites of the XV 8s?

Even though the Tau are pretty much the height of technological warfare in the 41st millenium, war in space (especially without reliable long range FTL travel) means logistics are important, getting new weaponary and training troops to use it when they're many systems and years distant means adoption of new technologies is slow even for the Tau.

[Katharon]

Fusion cascades are weaker, shorter-ranged fusion blasters that fire d3 shots - a terrible trade-off.

I think they might be a bit more useful than you imagine. They are still melta and can get up to S18 on a perfect roll...

[CoffeeGrunt]

Worth noting that the Rail Rifle is described as emptying its charge after a couple of shots. While it makes little sense that it be more energy-demanding than a Plasma Rifle, it apparently is. Also, Broadsides utilise Plasma Rifles, so they're not unique to XV8s.

I don't think the Ion Rifle would be a good replacement for Missile Pods, but I do have a Commander wielding an "Ion Repeater Carbine" as a counts-as dual Missile Pod setup.

[YorkNecromancer]

Worth noting that the Rail Rifle is described as emptying its charge after a couple of shots. While it makes little sense that it be more energy-demanding than a Plasma Rifle, it apparently is. Also, Broadsides utilise Plasma Rifles, so they're not unique to XV8s.

Especially if they're anything like real-life rail weapons, where you basically have to rebuild the gun after each shot! Their nature means they are intensely self-destructive. It would make sense that you wouldn't want a weapon you can only fire three to four times as a close-quarter assault weapon. It'd be like bringing a crossbow to a mass sword fight - yeah, you'll probably kill at least one person if you can keep calm, but it's not really the right tool for the job...

If they're closer real life Gauss guns (which are nothing like Necron Gauss weapons), they could fire far more securely.

http://io9.com/5892516/the-science-of-rail-guns
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Railgun
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coilgun

[marful]

Actually, in the Tau codex, and according to GW in several other publications, pulse rifles are explicitly plasma based weapons.
You misread my post. I wasn't saying they aren't similar, I was saying the equivalent of the Heavy Bolter in the Tau Arsenal is the Burst Cannon, NOT the Plasma Rifle.

[CoffeeGrunt]

To be honest York, though I agree with you, transferring our current engineering abilities to the Tau weaponry wouldn't work too well. After all, we can only assume a plasma weapon would be even more self-destructive, as the Imperium proves quite well.

I think they have the materials and engineering to remove the usual rail flexing/rail scorching problems that are plaguing current prototypes. Presumably some form of reinforced Fio'tak is used to stop the force of the magnetic propulsion peeling the rails apart. We've managed it from what I understand of the latest news, but it's a heavy setup more in scale with the Hammerhead's. Given a century I imagine we'll have it down, though.

I think the Rail vs Plasma Rifle thing was more a case of it not having the parts, and game balance. That said, none of the Tau Relics have parts, and the ABFP/CIB only get them in the Finecast Commander kit.

Personally I would love Fire Warrior Shas'uis being able to take Ion/Rail Rifles, but then my Tau wishlist is pretty long, and encompasses other things like EMP Grenades on Vespid and the like.

[YorkNecromancer]

You misread my post. I wasn't saying they aren't similar, I was saying the equivalent of the Heavy Bolter in the Tau Arsenal is the Burst Cannon, NOT the Plasma Rifle

In which case the Plasma Rifle is the Mauler Bolt Cannon. :)

Pulse weapons = plasma weapons. It really is that simple. Tau are just better at manipulating plasma tech than the Imperium, which is, let's be honest, utterly backwards when it comes to Science.

[Mr Mystery]

Yup.

Pulse Weapons are indeed ultimately plasma based. Not as potent, but far more reliable overall.

[marful]

In which case the Plasma Rifle is the Mauler Bolt Cannon. :)

Pulse weapons = plasma weapons. It really is that simple. Tau are just better at manipulating plasma tech than the Imperium, which is, let's be honest, utterly backwards when it comes to Science.
Wait, I thought Imperium has religion... what is this "science" you speak of? Does it require rituals? Are these rituals, blasphemous?

Sounds heretical, not requiring rituals if you ask me...