A Lowly Codicier's Predictions for the Blood Angels Codex

[Takerukau]

Hello everyone,

Let me preface this by saying that I am starting this thread to offer up thoughts, anticipations, and predictions about what I think the Blood Angels 7th edition release will be like. This is not a rumor thread, and I have specifically been avoiding rumors for the most part just because I saw what happened to my friends who followed the Tyranid rumor threads and were so sorely jaded afterwards. Any rumors posted in this thread will be looked at with extreme skepticism, or ignored completely on my part.

This thread is not meant to start new rumors or do anything more than allow me, or anyone who is interested, to throw out predictions about what will happen with the new dex. Hopefully I will be able to look back on this and see that I was right about some things, but we'll see :)

So with that disclaimer in place, let the fun begin!

I'm going to organize this by first attempting to hammer out some of the more generic army stuff (i.e. army special rules, warlord traits, wargear relics, formations etc.), and then specifically address each part of the force org in the army composition and possible changes. I'm not going to go through each unit, because that sounds exhausting, but feel free to add that if you are interested in doing so. I imagine much of the fluff will be the same so I won't speculate much on that. I will be dividing these up into what I expect to see vs. what I think will actually happen, where appropriate.

ARMY SPECIAL RULES:

THE RED THIRST:

I predict some pretty substantial changes in the way that the "Red Thirst" works. 5th edition really took a lot of the flavor out of this army special rule, and I think that the new rule set will find some kind of a balance between the two. Red thirst used to be a roll you made every movement phase, and if you rolled a 1 then you had to compulsively move towards the closest enemy unit. This was pretty tedious (though pretty cool and fluffy), and could really screw you up if you were trying to hold a certain position. Alternatively, the 5th edition version removed all possibility of detriment from this rule, and instead you would get benefits by rolling a 1 (fearless, furious charge). If you remembered to do it, it could pay off, but it wasn't very compelling or fluffy. Whereas there are chapter tactics for Codex: SM, none of them had to roll for it, so it was like paying the points for a rule that you probably weren't going to get.

What I think will happen: I think that Red Thirst will still be a rule that you roll for 1 time at the beginning of the game. This will either be a compulsive rule (i.e. must always charge when in range of an enemy) or it will be separated by unit type (similar to the Tyranid's instinctive behavior). This has always been something that Blood Angel players have had to keep track of, and I doubt that will change.

What I would like to see happen: I'd like to see the Red Thirst come back in a big way. I want this to be a test that you take for each applicable squad at the beginning of the game, with a definite possible penalty, but an awesome bonus. Roll a 1? Compulsive movement or charges with furious charge or something like that. Roll a 6? Get a rule like "stubborn" or "adamantium will" or something that reflects a bonus due to their extreme fortitude in resisting the temptation. I think that would be the most fun way to represent this idea, though I know it would require players to pay a lot of attention. If given a choice between flavor with bookkeeping, or blandness, I will pick the flavor option any day.

THE BLACK RAGE:

I expect a lot of change with this rule as well. It lost a lot of flavor with the execution of 5th edition rules, and I think this is GW's greatest opportunity to make what is great about Blood Angels come into the new edition in a strong way.

What I expect to happen: I expect there to be little change to the rules for Death Company (they will get the rage special rule and everything else), but I do expect to see them become much cheaper to put on the field. I feel like they will be cheaper simply because scoring is such a big deal, and while they are heavy on rules, they have no scoring potential. In order to balance the unit and make it attractive to players, it needs to have a reduction in points cost.

What I would like to see happen: I want to see random Death Co. generation again (even if it becomes a part of the Red Thirst rule penalty like I stated above). Give me incentive to put chaplains back as a big HQ like they used to be (where they came with d3+3 death company as part of their purchase, and all DC who generated from squads joined his unit). Those were awesome units, and some awesome/fluffy rules. We need that again.

*PLEASE* write the codex understanding the difference between the two curses…

DESCENT OF ANGELS:
I don’t expect this to change. It will either stay the same, or go away completely.

WARGEAR/RELICS:
I expect there to be some pretty awesome relic options for the Blood Angels, especially because of how prevalent they are in the codices throughout the history of the army. Here are some examples of what I expect to see:
1. An epic Death Mask similar to the function of the helm in the Space Wolf codex
2. A Glaive Encarmine with a dual purpose (Ap2/Ap3) with different combat modes
3. Some Artificer Armor that gives a 2+/5++ and eternal warrior
4. A special Jump Pack, maybe gives an extra wound and reduces scatter range even further
5. A Master-Crafted melta pistol

WARLORD TRAITS

1. An ability to re-roll on challenges (gift of foresight or something)
2. Furious Charge for warlord and unit (red thirst themed)
3. Rage (black rage themed)
4. No scatter on deep strike w/jump pack (re-roll if no JP on warlord)
5. Leadership aura (12”) or re-roll on failed leadership
6. Re-roll on charge distances once per game

PSYCHIC POWERS

As long as I get Wings of Sanguinius back, I don’t care what the rest is. Heck, let’s just make that the primaris. I expect some “vampiric” powers, and a invulnerable save shield to replace the shield in the last dex.

HQ

HQ’s are going to be shaken up a lot with the new dex. There are going to be a lot of changes to the special characters in particular, and I think that there will be a lot of wargear options opening up for the non-special characters.

HQ: SANGUINOR

Sanguinor is going to be the enigma, I have a hard time thinking that this model will remain the same at all, however I don’t know what could be done to make him effective aside from giving him independent character, or perhaps something similar to the old vanguard vet assault rules (Heroic Intervention?) just to keep him from being killed by bolters. He may even be flushed out as a Lord of War, though I put that as my #3 choice for that.

HQ: DANTE

Dante is #2 on my picks to be added as a lord of war, though I think that it is more likely that he will see either a reduction in point cost or a level point cost and the addition of eternal warrior. His warlord trait will likely give him the “No scatter” rule. His axe needs to strike at initiative or he will remain mostly useless, since he’ll lose the ability to make Sanguinary Guard into a scoring unit (which fits in line with the way that the new codices are going, it’s rare to see FOC changes due to character selection anymore)

HQ: MEPHISTON

Mephiston is my #1 pick for a Lord of War (with a new sculpt). He’s the Lord of Death and, let’s face it, the closest thing we’ll ever get to a primarch in 40k. He’s going to get eternal warrior, psyker level 3 (or 4), and have specific psychic powers (Iron arm, and some from the BA Psychic range). In exchange, he’ll never be able to be joined by an independent character (so enjoy your corbulo/mephiston combo while it lasts folks because I’m sure that’s on its way out).

HQ: TYCHO

Tycho will not change much, but if he stays with the death co. option I think he’ll be able to join DC squads instead of losing his independent character rule outright.

HQ: ASTORATH THE GRIM

His rules will be hard to anticipate, since a lot of it will depend on the way the rules for Black Rage and Red Thirst are concerned. Maybe he will allow DC to score?

HQ: CORBULO

I think that Corbulo will move back to an HQ choice (and sanguinary priests in general). He’ll get another wound and his FNP will be nerfed a bit. Heaven’s teeth will likely stay much the same, or get a flat AP buff on close combat. His foresight will likely act more like a one-time twin-linked rule or some special “look out, sir!” shenanigans for the squad he is in.

HQ: Other
1. A refocus on Chaplains
2. Cheaper librarians (in line with other SM codices)
3. A cheap HQ (sanguinary priest) similar in function to the wolf guard battle leader
4. Unlocking wargear for captains etc. to allow for greater customization

TROOPS:

Going through the troops is a tedious task, so I’ll summarize what I think will happen:

1. Assault squads will no longer be troops (they’ll likely feature as a troop in a formation or supplement)
2. Overall cheaper squads (i.e. tac squads) to get more in line with the recent marine variants
3. Death company dread will turn into a character (Moriar the Chosen) and will no longer be un-locked by death company (he may even turn into an HQ choice). Blood Talons will be nerfed so they no longer go into lawnmower mode. Instead, it will get rules like “rampage” and “shred” and “rage” to get a lot of attacks, but not unlimited anymore. Murderfang from the Space Wolf dex basically fit all of my predictions for DC dreads in general, which was kind of disappointing.
4. Scout will get access to Land Speeder Storms and get a points reduction.

ELITES:

1. Sanguinary guard will get increased squad size and become cheaper (or stay expensive and get some kind of invulnerable save).
2. Furioso Librarians will go down in cost
3. Furioso Dreads will go UP in cost, lose access to claws, and get a better version of the grenade cannon
4. Sanguinary priest squads will still be possible
5. Stergard veterans to be replaced with something more like Dark Angel Company veterans with JP options, no vanguard vets (just wargear changes allowing them to fit the same function
6. Brand new terminator kit, with something either Tyranid hunter (tying in with Space Hulk fluff) or Death Co. themed included in the kit (since all the other marine variants have specialized terminators).
7. Price drop in generic terminators to be in line with changes in the SW dex and Grey Knights dex costing for terminators.

FAST ATTACK

1. A new small flyer or skimmer kit
2. Baal predators either will or should get torrent for the flamestorm turret, or get an overwatch ability if they go full-on flamer. Come with Fast, but it will have a risk again (immobilize on a 1 if you go fast on flat out moves or something).

HEAVY SUPPORT

1. Stormraven missiles will be nerfed to line up with the rest of the Marine SR’s.
2. “Fast” will be an upgrade option, and have a “gets hot” style risk to use for rhino chassis.
3. Land Raiders will be back as a heavy support option.

DEDICATED TRANSPORT

1. Limited Land Raider dedicated transport options, like terminators and possibly tactical squads
2. “Fast” upgrade will be purchasable by Rhino chassis vehicles, and if you don’t go with it then transport costs will be in line with other marine codices.
3. Some flyer dedicated transport options

FORMATIONS:

I predict a Jump-pack formation where JP troops will have turn 1 deep strike options and have some additional scoring benefits. Basically it will have compulsory jump pack options and few if any tactical or scout squads.

Phew… I’m sure I’ll think of more later, but here’s a start! Let me know what you predict and what you think will happen! FOR SANGUINIUS AND THE EMPEROR!

[daboarder]

im not expecting major structural changes to teh army or its main special rules. None of the 5th ed codexes have had that (grey knights had the biggest changes).

I do think it unlikely Vanguard Veterans will keep with reserve assault rule, but I live in hope for a lazy copy paste on that note

I do expect assault squads to remain troops. Its not a FoC swap like the other missing ones and has been part of the rules for every edition baring 3rds codex (even 3rds rulebook allowed it)

[vharing]

From a long time Blood Angel player point of view what you are predicting takes most of the fun and flair out of the codex. It almost sounds like a rewrite of the WD codex. Like daboarder said, assault marines will stay troops for sure and that changes are the codex will stay relativly the same. I agree Dante or more likely Mephiston will get LoW status. And if they bring back death company coming from squads I would be happy. Taking away fast rhino chassis and some of the other sweeping changes you mention seem unlikely and far fetched.

[Charistoph]

PSYCHIC POWERS

As long as I get Wings of Sanguinius back, I don’t care what the rest is. Heck, let’s just make that the primaris. I expect some “vampiric” powers, and a invulnerable save shield to replace the shield in the last dex.

This may or may not happen. The Puppies got their own filthy "non-Psyker-nor-magic-honest" special powers, so it is likely they will get something. But I wouldn't bet on them being exactly the same as the current codex has (and no longer can use).



HQ: DANTE
HQ: MEPHISTON

If there were any Marine codex to get 2 Infantry Lords of War, it would be these two. Because the Chapter Masters (especially the oldest of them all) seem to be headed that route, and Mephiston is already a Daemon Prince. Though, I would have put Bjorn in this list, too, personally.



TROOPS:
Assault squads will no longer be troops (they’ll likely feature as a troop in a formation or supplement)

Yeah, not expecting that to change, personally.

Everything else that the C:SM has will be moved in to a similar spot, Chaplains included. Librarian Dreadnought will be HQ, and the Furioso and Death Company Dreads moved to Elites or made an upgrade to the Standard Dreadnought.



DEDICATED TRANSPORT

1. Limited Land Raider dedicated transport options, like terminators and possibly tactical squads
2. “Fast” upgrade will be purchasable by Rhino chassis vehicles, and if you don’t go with it then transport costs will be in line with other marine codices.
3. Some flyer dedicated transport options

Expect there to be nothing in the Role of Dedicated Transports. Much like Orks, Grey Knights, and the Puppies, Rhinos, Razorbacks, and Drop Pods will be in Fast Attack, and as you said, Land Raiders moved to Heavy Support.

I also don't expect the "Fast" to be an upgrade, either, but just plain standard for the entire run just like now. Either that, or completely removed.

I don't expect to see the Storm Raven as a Dedicated Transport for anything. I don't think it is for the new C:GK, and it isn't for C:SM, and it wasn't for the previous C:BA.

Death Company is the big question for me. They could be moved to Elites, and made a Supplement about them. They could also be kept Troops as now, but only allowed out in numbers as a Formation. Either way, I expect them to be scary and still never Score, no matter how much girls like the bad boys.

[daboarder]

charistoph....the 7th ed books still have ded transports

[Angelus Mortifer]

As a life-long BA player, I have to say that some of what you're predicting/hoping for will likely not happen. I'm expecting less changes than more changes and more of a general re-dress of the Codex in line with current 7th Editions, with few things that will really pop out.

Some general upfront thoughts (and purely my opinion as yours were for you :D )

- Red Thirst
BA will get an "always on" Chapter Trait just like the other Marine books. I know GW do left-field things sometimes, but there's no reason to suggest we'll be the only Marine book that has to roll for its special butterfly. It will likely be just Furious Charge as standard, or at a push FC plus another USR, but it's difficult to guage which one that could be.

- Black Rage
They won't go back to random generation for DC, or pulling them out of standard units you have selected for your force. They are a dedicated unit with its own entry now, and 99% will stay as such. There will likely be a formation associated with them, but you could pick from 3 that could be possible (DC, Sanguinary Guard, and varied Jump Pack formation - unlikely to get 3 but you never know).

- Dante is the only character who could possibly get Eternal Warrior, but they're taking away the abundance of that rule so if he gets it, it will possibly come with a notable overhaul of his rules to compensate. Mephiston won't and shouldn't get EC.

- Termi Kit
I'd be massively surprised we get one, although a "rumour" fluttered about a while back regarding a Sanguinary Guard Terminator option. With Space Hulk as well it makes for too much of a likely thing, and the rules would have to be suitably impressive to field any form of Termi unit given they seldom show up at the moment.

- Skimmer/Flyer kit
Again, I'll be very surprised if that happens. We are more likely to aquire the Storm Talon from regular Marines.

Just my initial thoughts, though some of your other suggestions are worth discussing too.

[Angelus Mortifer]

I could also see us getting our own Psi deck, which I originally thought wouldn't happen until Wolves got theirs. Some of what we have in the current Codex appears as standard in the BRB psi powers (or a variation thereof), but then specifics like Wings will likely stay. Good chance that Wings will be the Primaris maybe.

[Charistoph]

charistoph....the 7th ed books still have ded transports

Not as a Role as it has been in 3rd through 6th books. Trukks, Rhinos, Razorbacks, and Drop Pods are all Fast Attack now for every 7th Edition codex. They can still be purchased as Dedicated Transports, not saying otherwise, but much like the Land Raider has been for other Marine codices and the Storm Raven are in Heavy Support, they are placed in other Roles as well, usually Fast Attack.

[daboarder]

Oh yeah I expect that.
Your first statement lsemmed as if they were only available in FA

- - - Updated - - -

Will be good to get the BA off the shelf. Been a long time since they descended on wings of fire

[Takerukau]

im not expecting major structural changes to teh army or its main special rules.

I do expect assault squads to remain troops. Its not a FoC swap like the other missing ones and has been part of the rules for every edition baring 3rds codex (even 3rds rulebook allowed it)

I think we may see a shift back more towards how things were before 5th edition, because Red Thirst and Black Rage operated completely different from their 5th edition update. Not that 5th edition was horrible or anything, I certainly had an incredible amount of fun with that dex. I had only started playing during 3rd edition and didn't have a huge BA army back then so I didn't have a lot of assault squads, but I seem to remember them being fast attack choices. I'll have to see if I can did out that old dex sometime and look it up.

- - - Updated - - -


From a long time Blood Angel player point of view what you are predicting takes most of the fun and flair out of the codex. It almost sounds like a rewrite of the WD codex. Like daboarder said, assault marines will stay troops for sure and that changes are the codex will stay relativly the same. I agree Dante or more likely Mephiston will get LoW status. And if they bring back death company coming from squads I would be happy. Taking away fast rhino chassis and some of the other sweeping changes you mention seem unlikely and far fetched.

Like you say, it does take a lot of the fun and flair out, but that seems to be what the new 7th edition mantra is for 40k rules. Some of it is good because it levels out some of the more confusing or hard to track things, but in several cases it also seems to take out some of the flavor (like Space Wolf wolftooth necklaces and some of their more characterful features).

Grey Knights have had their codex systematically trimmed down from what it was in 5th edition (losing exclusive access to assassins and the inquisition stuff) took out a lot of flavor and brought the dex down a notch in terms of power. I'm kind of worried about the same with the BA dex.

Speaking of Dante, I am predicting that his mask will get a re-vamp that nerfs it a bit unless he goes full on Lord of War. I hope it doesn't, but if it does I wouldn't be surprised. It's those kinds of things that I think are going to change.

I don't miss the days of the PDF heresy white dwarf codex release/update (which I still played), but am I the only one that thinks the newer releases (IG, Orks, SW, GK) seem more mellow than they were?

[daboarder]

Oh yeah I expect that.
Your first statement lsemmed as if they were only available in FA

Only for the 3rd ed codex.

the 3rd ed rule book the 4th ed codex and the 5th ed codex all have them available as troops (and then there al the angels of death stuff from 2nd)

[Takerukau]

As a life-long BA player, I have to say that some of what you're predicting/hoping for will likely not happen. I'm expecting less changes than more changes and more of a general re-dress of the Codex in line with current 7th Editions, with few things that will really pop out.

Some general upfront thoughts (and purely my opinion as yours were for you :D )

- Red Thirst
BA will get an "always on" Chapter Trait just like the other Marine books. I know GW do left-field things sometimes, but there's no reason to suggest we'll be the only Marine book that has to roll for its special butterfly. It will likely be just Furious Charge as standard, or at a push FC plus another USR, but it's difficult to guage which one that could be.

- Black Rage
They won't go back to random generation for DC, or pulling them out of standard units you have selected for your force. They are a dedicated unit with its own entry now, and 99% will stay as such. There will likely be a formation associated with them, but you could pick from 3 that could be possible (DC, Sanguinary Guard, and varied Jump Pack formation - unlikely to get 3 but you never know).

- Dante is the only character who could possibly get Eternal Warrior, but they're taking away the abundance of that rule so if he gets it, it will possibly come with a notable overhaul of his rules to compensate. Mephiston won't and shouldn't get EC.

- Termi Kit
I'd be massively surprised we get one, although a "rumour" fluttered about a while back regarding a Sanguinary Guard Terminator option. With Space Hulk as well it makes for too much of a likely thing, and the rules would have to be suitably impressive to field any form of Termi unit given they seldom show up at the moment.

- Skimmer/Flyer kit
Again, I'll be very surprised if that happens. We are more likely to aquire the Storm Talon from regular Marines.

Just my initial thoughts, though some of your other suggestions are worth discussing too.

No I hope that you are right about the "Always on" chapter tactics equivalent, but that "rolling for the thirst/rage" element has been so prevalent in the previous iterations of the codex I would be very surprised if they were gone completely. Especially with all of the new mandatory random things we have to deal with now (such as warlord traits and psychic powers), I think it'll be there but however they do it I just want it to feel compelling and interesting (something I won't ever forget to do at the start of the game).

My Black Rage predictions involve a lot of hope for the random generation but I agree it is unlikely. I do expect them to get a points cost drop, or something to make them more of an attractive thing to take. Most people only take them now to unlock the DC dread which is objective secured due to an oversight on the FAQ (a scoring black rage dreadnought? Fun idea, but probably not what they had in mind).

Dante is a logical choice for EW given his age, and it is logical to think that he would be the Lord of War since he is the Chapter Master and Logan Grimnar was the same. I just hope it's Mephiston, because he's my favorite lol he was the first HQ I ever had for this game back when I started some 16ish years ago. I love playing Dante too, so I won't be sad if he gets the LoW spot.

The Storm Talon becoming available also makes a lot of sense (particularly since they have been mentioned in a Blood Angels book by David Annandale) as being available. I think that the skimmer option is there (something akin to the Land speeder storm) to fill a role much like Blood Claws in the new wolf dex, who can take the flyer as a dedicated transport.

The terminators are the only thing that I could think of as a "new squad" that we could get. It's extremely unlikely that we will get access to centurions (and honestly I'd rather not get slowed down by them, so give them jump packs or let the smurfs keep them lol)

[Takerukau]

One thing that I forgot to add to my predictions was Chapter Master Gabriel Seth will disappear from the BA codex completely and the Flesh Tearers will get their own supplement Ala Farsight Enclave and Iyanden.

[daboarder]

while I dont doubt there will be a flesh tearer supp the codex wont lose seth, thats how it works with EVERY supplement, farsight included

[kharne690]

I'm just hoping for sanguinary guard and death company terminators.

[Aaron LeClair]

I'm just hoping for sanguinary guard and death company terminators.

Sanguinary Guard just need a Inv save(or the option there of) they don't need Terminator armor;tho the models would be kick ***, just need to be able to kit bash with other term kits, and I cannot see BA strapping Term Armor on a someone going to the DeathCompany, is there any current talk of that in the lore?(really I would like to know if there is because that would change my mind fast); and once more the models would be kick ***. I do hope they they get a new kit of some type and they just don't toss the Stormtalon in and call it a day.

Heck I'd be ok if they dropped a Plastic Term Libby/Captain kit(like the SM PA captain kit but with librarian options also). there are just so many 'hopes' I could list off, stuff that would make me buy new models tho I already have the models to play the options.

Only thing I can say will happen with 99% certainty that thing are gonna get cheaper, and I hope LR stays as a DT and become heavy, tho really never mattered much due to if I needed to run one I would have a Tact Squad or something that could take it anyways.

[Charistoph]

Only thing I can say will happen with 99% certainty that thing are gonna get cheaper, and I hope LR stays as a DT and become heavy, tho really never mattered much due to if I needed to run one I would have a Tact Squad or something that could take it anyways.

It'll be interesting to see if they keep the Land Raider as a Dedicated Transport for units that don't have the option in C:SM. On one hand, it is a uniqueness to their chapter, on the other hand, 7th Edition is the Copy & Paste Edition, too, so they may just Copy & Paste from C:SM for the same units like Tacticals and Assault Marines.

[daboarder]

Sanguinary Guard just need a Inv save(or the option there of) they don't need Terminator armor;tho the models would be kick ***, just need to be able to kit bash with other term kits, and I cannot see BA strapping Term Armor on a someone going to the DeathCompany, is there any current talk of that in the lore?(really I would like to know if there is because that would change my mind fast); and once more the models would be kick ***. I do hope they they get a new kit of some type and they just don't toss the Stormtalon in and call it a day.

Heck I'd be ok if they dropped a Plastic Term Libby/Captain kit(like the SM PA captain kit but with librarian options also). there are just so many 'hopes' I could list off, stuff that would make me buy new models tho I already have the models to play the options.

Only thing I can say will happen with 99% certainty that thing are gonna get cheaper, and I hope LR stays as a DT and become heavy, tho really never mattered much due to if I needed to run one I would have a Tact Squad or something that could take it anyways.

An invul save on sang guard would be aces.
the only time I could think of rage Terminators would be if they fell while deployed.

[DaveTycho]

I'll go through my wish list/ predictions for the new blood angels:

Black Rage/ red thirst: furious charge will be in somehow, after all, furious charge was literally invented for blood angels back in 3rd ed- it just spread to everyone else later on. Whether they will get it, by default or by some random dice roll, remains to be seen. Takerukau is right to say that the current rule has no detriment to the BA player if he rolls successfully for it. That's why I think it should go back to 3rd ed rules, which had all BA units had furious charge by default, and had every unit roll each turn to see if they behaved themselves or charge towards the enemy. Of course that rule would be modified to suite 7th ed movement, running and charging rules.

Descent of Angels: stays the same. Not broke, not in need of fixing.

Warlord Traits/ Relics: I grouped these together because what Takerukau mentioned sounds fine as is. I can't think of much better to add to these subjects, so I'll leave them at that.

Psychic Powers: say goodbye to wings of sanguinius! I don't see much reason for this to come back. It was a movement phase based power that became broken when 7th ed introduced the psychic phase AFTER the movement phase. If it does come back, it would work most likely as a super 12" run move that ignores terrain. But seriously, what was the use of this power in the first place? So your librarians could have free jump packs? Sure, you could have bike Libby's fly like jetbikes, but this is blood angels, not deathwing or white scars. Flying dread Libby's are definitely cool, not doubt, but has that funny problem on immobilised dreads being able to move with wings ever been FAQ'ed?
In all honesty, I don't see a reason blood angels need their own psychic powers. The ones they already have a fine. Whether that's the case or not....

Dante: either drop his (I) value or drop his unwieldy rule from his axe. His death mask will most likely get nerfed.

Mephiston: although this is highly unlikely to happen, I hope they nerf his stat line to hell. Seriously, the only way he should have the stat line he has now is if he is doped up on psychic powers. Am I the only one who believes that what Matt Ward saying about Mephiston getting souped up after surviving the black rage for over a week is absurd? Such a thing would make Mephiston super strong willed, but it shouldn't make him super saiyan as well. It's like Matt Ward watched dragon ball Z, saw how Goku died, trained to fight in the afterlife, and returned from the dead stronger than ever, and Ward thought, "hey! That sounds a little like Mephiston's backstory. I could copy Goku's improved abilities and apply it to Mephiston too!" Mephiston's popularity is more to do with him being a one man killing machine more than his model or fluff (no offence to those who like the mini and/ or fluff. It's just true). Give him chapter master stats so he is still better than a normal librarian, then have it boosted up with special rules, wargear, and biomancy or any other psychic power you can think of.

The Sanguininor: this guy is unusual as he is a faceless special character in that while cool, has no personality or character. The way he is portrayed is that he is the blood angel equivalent of the eldar avatar. I have no problem with this, and it would be cool to see something similar with other space marines (ie: some generic lost hero HQ choice for codex: space marines), but the problem here is that you have you army led by some uber mysterious, no-name angel that literally flys in at the blood angel's darkest hour. I feel he deserves a lord of war choice more than Mephiston does, although it would be just as preferable if the Sanguinior couldn't be a compulsory HQ choice instead.

Librarians, Chaplains, Sanguinary Priests: apart from some points fixing to keep line with other space marines, these guys are fine. You could move San Priests to a HQ slot as long as you can still have 1-3 as a single choice. Maybe do the same with chaplains and drop the 2 tier chaplain thing they have now.

Tycho: DC Tycho should be able to join death company. Problem solved.

Dreadnoughts: apart from the obvious problems facing Dreadnoughts in general, all they need is a points drop.
Problems facing dreads right now is more than points or stat problems, so this is the best I can offer.

San Guard: most people think these guys need invo saves to make them better. If they do then they become better than Teminators and that is not on. I think they should be 30 points per model and have the option to have 10 man squad sizes.

Sternguard/ Vanguard: will be moved in line with their space marine equivalents. Vanguards would most likely loose their current heroic intervention rule, which is gonna suck. Other than that, they should stay in.

Assault Squads: hard one to judge if they would remain troops or be moved back to fast attack. I would like to see them remain as they are, but I guess with unbound armies, even if they are moved to FA, it wouldn't be that much of a problem (except for those complaining that their assault marines no longer Ob Sec, or can't field all assault marine lists in no- unbound tournaments). Of course blood angels could have a different Force Org Chart with extra fast attack slots if assault marines do become FA. On a side note, most likely expect some assault squad formation.

Death Company: this is also hard to judge, but for different reasons. Whatever form the black rage/ red thirst rules take would heavily affect the death company. Hopefully they will get cheaper. Chances are that the ridiculous squad size gets reduced. Maybe 20 guys max?
Accessing DC Dreadnoughts will change. How I'm not sure. Maybe they will be elites, who knows? I'm not making any calls on how that one will be resolved. Like the assault formation, expect a DC formation too.

Dedicated Transports: just because space wolves have theirs as FA choices doesn't mean the same is going to happen to blood angels too. Hopefully they remain the same. Of course the big question is land raiders. Personally I'd like to see them back as they are with the other space marines, but that will be a hard one to call as well.

Baal Predators: maybe torrent flame weapons.

Stormravens: if land raiders get shafted back to heavy support, stormravens should take their place as a dedicated transport. Okay, space wolves have this, but I feel that air assault tactics suit the blood angels better.

Other things: grav weapons might be in. Stormtalons and land speder storms- Doesn't matter either way if they're in or out. Brand new stuff- I don't think blood angels need brand new stuff. They have plenty of goodies as it is. It's more of a case of balancing everything out. Doesn't mean they won't get new stuff though, but who knows anymore?

Well that's my two cents on this. I expect plenty of complaints.

[MajorWesJanson]

Like others, I'll go through and do the long list:
Special Rules- ATSKNF, Combat Squads, Red Thirst, Descent of Angels
Red Thirst no longer a roll per unit, but a rule similar to Orks- if you roll a 10 or above for your charge, you get furious charge.
Black Rage- Death Company Only- Rage and Fearless , maybe bring must decalre a charge if there is an enemy unit within 12"

Psychic Powers- Gone. Wings was the only unique one, the rest are all minor variants or even direct copies of powers now mixed through the 5 BRB charts.

Wargear:
Death Mask will simply grant fear- basically what it did before.
Blood Chalice- likely will not be a bubble buff anymore, but will grant FNP and Furious Charge to the unit.
Overcharged Engines- makes rhino hulls fast. built in 5 point upgrade to vehicles.

HQ:
Dante- Death Mask and Axe will become chapter relics. Axe will probably become a Power Axe without Unwieldy. Death Mask will probably grant Fear and some buffs in a challenge. I think he will stay a HQ.
Seth- Blood Reaver will be a relic, with the rules it has. Sx2, AP- Rending. Whirlwind of Gore could be swapped out with Rampage.
Astorath- Probably no major changes.
Sanguinor- Will likely gain the rule that if you take a unit of Sanguinary Guard, he doesn't take up a FOC slot. Avenging Angel will likely be reroll failed hits and wounds in a challenge.
Mepheston- I'd bet a L3 Librarian Lord of War.
Tycho- no real changes.
Librarian- copy paste from Codex marines.
Chaplain- Copy Paste from Codex marines. Maybe a Reclusiarch upgrade to give him +1 W and A
Captain- copy paste from Codex marines
Honor Guard- copy paste from Codex marines.
Techmarine- Copy Paste from codex Marines
Sanguinary Priest- same as current entry, but HQ, may take 1 per HQ you take, like Techamrines. Corbulo as either an upgrade or a full HQ choice.

Elites:
Terminators, Terminator Assault, Sternguard all copy paste from codex marines. Maybe points drop for Terminators. Terminators can buy Storm Raven or Land Raiders as dedicated
Furioso, Librarian, and Death Company all upgrades for standard dreadnought. Librarian Dread gets cheaper.
Sanguinary Guard- stay the same as now, maybe a points drop. Can buy and transport as dedicated.
Sanguinary Wardens- potential new unit, Sanguinary Guard in Terminator armor. Can buy a Storm Raven and Land Raiders as dedicated.
Death Company- moves to Elite, stays at 20 points a model, jump packs get much cheaper, say 5 points per model.

Troops:
Tac Squad, Scout Squad, copy paste from Codex marines.
Assault squad copy paste from codex marines, but with melta gun, hand flamer, and infernius pistol options.

FA:
Vanguard Vets, Landspeeders, Bikes, Scout Bikes- copy paste from Codex Marines.
Baal Predator flamestorm gains torrent. Base price drops to say 100 or 105.

HS:
Much the same as now, just Dreadnought removed. Entries copy pasted from Codex Marines to update units.
Land Raiders lose Deep Strike.

[tcraigen]

I'd be blown away to see such drastic changes to the codex, I doubt furioso will loose claws since as long as it's existed as a title and not just the name on its banner it's had them. The death comp dread could move. I doubt assault and death company will move, mostly because I doubt they're going to go back to the thirty choices in elite and fast attack sections of yesterday... I think the sanguinary priests work though I can see changing. I hope to see the land speeder storm it just makes sense. I suspect most of the changes will be vehicles, points values, and special rules. I would be amazed to see a new unit, more likely to see characters or tank. I think attention needs to be paid to tech marines a bit. I suspect deep striking chariot with sanguinary guard jet bikes pulling it and as asterath and Mephiston tag teaming murder blows from it as it fires a blood ray from it's under slung mounting

[Takerukau]

Sanguinary Guard just need a Inv save(or the option there of) they don't need Terminator armor;tho the models would be kick ***, just need to be able to kit bash with other term kits, and I cannot see BA strapping Term Armor on a someone going to the DeathCompany, is there any current talk of that in the lore?(really I would like to know if there is because that would change my mind fast); and once more the models would be kick ***. I do hope they they get a new kit of some type and they just don't toss the Stormtalon in and call it a day.


From what I remember of the fluff, DC are selected among the brethren before the battle when the chaplains give them blessings, after which point their armor gets either painted or changed. The DC fluff in 5th ed speaks of how they keep the wargear that they had equipped (which is why you could get so many ridiculous options, because they could be heroes or captains/sergeant with special wargear) so it stands to reason that some would be able to keep their terminator armor on. At the same time, terminator armor is a prized relic so maybe they would make them change (I wouldn't want the job of telling a marine lost in the rage that he had to change clothes...). Either way, whether we see them or not, it's a fun idea.

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An invul save on sang guard would be aces.


I agree it would be awesome to be able to have them come stock with an invulnerable save. Usually I go for divination and stick a librarian with them so that I can maybe get the 4++ from that power, but it's not reliable for every game.

[Takerukau]

Psychic Powers: say goodbye to wings of sanguinius! I don't see much reason for this to come back.

Dante: either drop his (I) value or drop his unwieldy rule from his axe. His death mask will most likely get nerfed.

Mephiston: although this is highly unlikely to happen, I hope they nerf his stat line to hell. Seriously, the only way he should have the stat line he has now is if he is doped up on psychic powers. Am I the only one who believes that what Matt Ward saying about Mephiston getting souped up after surviving the black rage for over a week is absurd? Such a thing would make Mephiston super strong willed, but it shouldn't make him super saiyan as well. It's like Matt Ward watched dragon ball Z, saw how Goku died, trained to fight in the afterlife, and returned from the dead stronger than ever, and Ward thought, "hey! That sounds a little like Mephiston's backstory. I could copy Goku's improved abilities and apply it to Mephiston too!" Mephiston's popularity is more to do with him being a one man killing machine more than his model or fluff (no offence to those who like the mini and/ or fluff. It's just true). Give him chapter master stats so he is still better than a normal librarian, then have it boosted up with special rules, wargear, and biomancy or any other psychic power you can think of.

The Sanguininor: this guy is unusual as he is a faceless special character in that while cool, has no personality or character. The way he is portrayed is that he is the blood angel equivalent of the eldar avatar. I have no problem with this, and it would be cool to see something similar with other space marines (ie: some generic lost hero HQ choice for codex: space marines), but the problem here is that you have you army led by some uber mysterious, no-name angel that literally flys in at the blood angel's darkest hour. I feel he deserves a lord of war choice more than Mephiston does, although it would be just as preferable if the Sanguinior couldn't be a compulsory HQ choice instead.



Well I'm not going to complain about your opinion (that would be contrary to the intent of my original posting) but I will point out something that I respectfully disagree on. I felt you made a lot of good points, but the Mephiston/Sanguinor stuff really piqued my interest.

Most of the reason that I want Wings of Sanguinius back is because they offered some really necessary mobility to Mephiston and the psyker dreads. Wargear wise, the psyker dreads are pretty weak because the only way to get them where you want them is to either pay the drop pod tax or the stormraven tax, otherwise they just sit in the backfield and cast buffs (assuming you roll and get the buffs you want). What I'd like to see are some more wargear options or useful powers that fit the role of the Blood Angels in the lore, which is assault and mobility.

You make a good point about Wings in the psychic phase instead of the movement phase (which is a large reason why I figured that they removed it from usability in the FAQ). I think they could still execute it by allowing movement in the psychic phase and giving a buff to assault distances (teleportation/levitation currently does not allow charging).

Wings could even end up being a character-specific power for Mephiston. Wings likely won't go away permanently simply because it is so prevalent in the fluff, the lore, and there are simply ridiculous amounts of Winged Mephiston conversions (mine included). That's one reason I think he's due for a re-sculpt (like Logan Grimnar got).

I have no qualms with Mephiston's stat line, and don't want to see it nerfed at all. He's never been below toughness 5 as long as I've played with him, and without eternal warrior he would get doubled out way way way too easily since he can't join squads. His lore, as expanded in the book that Black Library put out, says that he was able to strangle to death a demon prince (specifically M'kar the reborn) with his bare hands. That book also heavily features the wings power (among some others that are likely to just remain as part of the story, though I would love a power that let me explode someone's skeleton).

I like the idea of the Sanguinor being the LoW, though it would really surprise me. He would definitely need some stat line tweaks/ability tweaks because right now he is completely impractical to use in game. T4 and 3 wounds? 2+/3++ notwithstanding, he dies to boltgun fire, and since he cannot join squads he really has no way to hide. His model would be a great candidate for heroic intervention (VVet 5th ed style), and it would be fun to see him have a rule that would automatically allow him to come to the defense of someone locked in a challenge (again, a fun idea, but we'll see what happens).

I appreciate your comments and post, they have definitely made this a fun thread to follow.

[Charistoph]

Dedicated Transports: just because space wolves have theirs as FA choices doesn't mean the same is going to happen to blood angels too. Hopefully they remain the same. Of course the big question is land raiders. Personally I'd like to see them back as they are with the other space marines, but that will be a hard one to call as well.

If it was just Space Wolves, you would have a point. But as pointed out earlier, it's not. It's been that case for Orks and Grey Knights as well, so I'm going to chalk this one up to a 7th Edition design paradigm, much as how the army list is set up, too. Codex: Space Marines is still a 6th Edition codex, operating under a completely different design paradigm.

Personally, I think it's better this way. At least it removes any question on if you can have an Unbound army of Razorbacks.

[Takerukau]

Like others, I'll go through and do the long list:
Special Rules- ATSKNF, Combat Squads, Red Thirst, Descent of Angels
Red Thirst no longer a roll per unit, but a rule similar to Orks- if you roll a 10 or above for your charge, you get furious charge.
Black Rage- Death Company Only- Rage and Fearless , maybe bring must decalre a charge if there is an enemy unit within 12"

Psychic Powers- Gone. Wings was the only unique one, the rest are all minor variants or even direct copies of powers now mixed through the 5 BRB charts.

Wargear:
Death Mask will simply grant fear- basically what it did before.
Blood Chalice- likely will not be a bubble buff anymore, but will grant FNP and Furious Charge to the unit.
Overcharged Engines- makes rhino hulls fast. built in 5 point upgrade to vehicles.

HQ:
Dante- Death Mask and Axe will become chapter relics. Axe will probably become a Power Axe without Unwieldy. Death Mask will probably grant Fear and some buffs in a challenge. I think he will stay a HQ.
Seth- Blood Reaver will be a relic, with the rules it has. Sx2, AP- Rending. Whirlwind of Gore could be swapped out with Rampage.
Astorath- Probably no major changes.
Sanguinor- Will likely gain the rule that if you take a unit of Sanguinary Guard, he doesn't take up a FOC slot. Avenging Angel will likely be reroll failed hits and wounds in a challenge.
Mepheston- I'd bet a L3 Librarian Lord of War.
Tycho- no real changes.
Librarian- copy paste from Codex marines.
Chaplain- Copy Paste from Codex marines. Maybe a Reclusiarch upgrade to give him +1 W and A
Captain- copy paste from Codex marines
Honor Guard- copy paste from Codex marines.
Techmarine- Copy Paste from codex Marines
Sanguinary Priest- same as current entry, but HQ, may take 1 per HQ you take, like Techamrines. Corbulo as either an upgrade or a full HQ choice.

Elites:
Terminators, Terminator Assault, Sternguard all copy paste from codex marines. Maybe points drop for Terminators. Terminators can buy Storm Raven or Land Raiders as dedicated
Furioso, Librarian, and Death Company all upgrades for standard dreadnought. Librarian Dread gets cheaper.
Sanguinary Guard- stay the same as now, maybe a points drop. Can buy and transport as dedicated.
Sanguinary Wardens- potential new unit, Sanguinary Guard in Terminator armor. Can buy a Storm Raven and Land Raiders as dedicated.
Death Company- moves to Elite, stays at 20 points a model, jump packs get much cheaper, say 5 points per model.

Troops:
Tac Squad, Scout Squad, copy paste from Codex marines.
Assault squad copy paste from codex marines, but with melta gun, hand flamer, and infernius pistol options.

FA:
Vanguard Vets, Landspeeders, Bikes, Scout Bikes- copy paste from Codex Marines.
Baal Predator flamestorm gains torrent. Base price drops to say 100 or 105.

HS:
Much the same as now, just Dreadnought removed. Entries copy pasted from Codex Marines to update units.
Land Raiders lose Deep Strike.

You've got some solid points there. I definitely agree with you on death masks being nerfed to only cause fear. Sounds pretty typical of the "across the board understandability" that they are building into the game with universal special rules.

I forget who mentioned this, but adding the venerable rule to the Furioso variants seems like a no-brainer. I honestly don't know what they are going to do to the DC dread that doesn't make it exactly like Murderfang.

What do you guys think about maybe Sanguinary Guard getting an extra wound instead of increased squad size? Win idea or fail idea? (I know, scary question to ask the interwebs, but I'm feeling brave ;) )

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If it was just Space Wolves, you would have a point. But as pointed out earlier, it's not. It's been that case for Orks and Grey Knights as well, so I'm going to chalk this one up to a 7th Edition design paradigm, much as how the army list is set up, too. Codex: Space Marines is still a 6th Edition codex, operating under a completely different design paradigm.

Personally, I think it's better this way. At least it removes any question on if you can have an Unbound army of Razorbacks.

Yeah I'm with you on this one, I definitely think that SRavens are going to be dedicated transports for something, I just don't know what.

We definitely aren't going to get centurions, and I'd be surprised to see any of the anti-air variants from Codex: SM pop up here. Unless we get special assault centurions with Jump Packs, which would be ridiculous but could end up with some awesome modeling opportunities lol

We probably won't see any new characters (or lose any, since we have models for all of them), so what kind of kit do you think we would see?

[Andrew Thomas]

I disagree with much of what the OP has said. No extra randoms, please. And they've already replaced WoS, it's called Gate of Infinity. As far as Subnumerary Dreads, more than likely Death Company might take on a Platoon-like structure, wherein you'll still see DCDs only be available after you've bought Death Company. If we get generic DC characters, they need to not be warlordable. And Furiosos need to be character models. (BTW: the Frag Cannon is a shotgun, not a grenade launcher, as it basically fires canister shot) also, more troop level specialist assault kit would be appreciated.

[Takerukau]

I disagree with much of what the OP has said. No extra randoms, please. And they've already replaced WoS, it's called Gate of Infinity.

Gate of infinity is a completely different power. Wings of Sanguinius didn't do:

1. Teleport you around the map with the deep strike special rule
2. Allow you to shunt out of assaults

Wings of Sanguinius did do:

1. Allow you to move as jump infantry (i.e. over intervening models/terrain)
2. Assault after casting
3. Use your "jump pack" during the assault phase even if you jumped in the movement phase (according to the old FAQ before the power got deleted)

They have completely different roles on the battlefield. The only power now that comes close to what Wings did is the levitation spell, but even that doesn't allow for charging afterwards, which makes it useless to the Blood Angels way of war.

[Andrew Thomas]

OK, which would be better: a tactical reposition anywhere on the board or getting to reroll charges, Hammer of Wrathing, and ignoring intervening terrain on the charge? You are likely to see a 25 point reduction in Furioso Librarian cost, so for an extra 55, you'd get an Armour 12 psyker that can deploy, then potentially redeploy anywhere on the board. Now, if they fix the FL's Wargear options, you might have something really powerful, especially if you're allowed to keep the Meltagun or take a Heavy Flamer. And it's still a viable power for units carrying assault or snap-fireable weapons. To bad that they didn't allow those options to GK, because that power would mitigate a lot of the problems they have with dealing with armor.

[Takerukau]

OK, which would be better: a tactical reposition anywhere on the board or getting to reroll charges, Hammer of Wrathing, and ignoring intervening terrain on the charge? You are likely to see a 25 point reduction in Furioso Librarian cost, so for an extra 55, you'd get an Armour 12 psyker that can deploy, then potentially redeploy anywhere on the board. Now, if they fix the FL's Wargear options, you might have something really powerful, especially if you're allowed to keep the Meltagun or take a Heavy Flamer. And it's still a viable power for units carrying assault or snap-fireable weapons. To bad that they didn't allow those options to GK, because that power would mitigate a lot of the problems they have with dealing with armor.

The random nature of the gate of infinity power presents an incredible amount of risk that I would not want to take, especially if the wargear options don't get an expansion. Even if they do, do I want an unreliable deep strike scatter ability? If I can have a 12" move and a potential 12" charge (which the rule used to let you re-roll when it existed) and have complete control of my character, or have a scatter power that could end up destroying it in a mishap (if I'm unlucky) or being put all the way across the table (if I'm really unlucky), I'd choose the controllable method. Especially because you can't assault after the gate power. If I'm a melee dread, or character, and I'm stuck out in the open, I'll likely get killed before I can get into an assault by using the gate power. I'm sure it's great for relentless shooty guys like centurions etc. but it really has no utility for a melee unit. That's why we need wings back.

This dreadnought, among other units (i.e. Mephiston) are built for close combat, but lack mobility now that wings is gone. Now if I want to move Mephiston around (or the dreadnought) then I have to pay the Stormraven tax (or at the very least the drop pod), and I'd rather not pay that if I don't have to. The fact that the Furioso is armor 13 on the front is a big deal too (if they nerf that then I'll be annoyed). All of the BA dreads have been melee oriented since at least 3rd edition, so the standard dread wargear likely won't get incorporated into those profiles unless they want to come out with a new dreadnought kit, which is highly unlikely.

I won't comment on GK too much because I don't have the new dex, but I've never struggled with armor with them in the past. Especially with the +2 strength from hammerhand mixed with thunder hammers you'll be ripping apart land raiders with little to no effort, and the rending psycannons (especially since the heavy psycannon has the two firing modes now) have killed land raiders for me in the past.

Bottom line, we need something that lets us get up close to rip these things apart as BA players. Shooting isn't our strong point (though we can still do it fairly well). The best way to do this is either a) bring back the power that gave these units their mobility or b) give us a special rule/ability that helps us close the distance and still charge into close combat.