Is an all-Terminator army viable to use?

[Wayniac]

Every so often I really consider getting back into 40k. Currently I have been eyeing the "Strike Force Ultra" box on the GW site and thinking about whether or not it's something that's viable to use. I love Terminators, always have since I started playing in 2nd edition. Something about being the best of the best of the best is just an awesome concept. While I don't care to be really competitive (it's doubtful I'd play in a tournament, for example) I also don't want to lose every game I play due to picking the wrong units, because that would just sour me on the game very quickly. I haven't given any thought to what Chapter Tactics I'd use, but since I'm likely to make my own chapter I'd probably pick Imperial Fists or Ultramarines as those are the most common gene-stock used in the fluff.

So with that said, I basically have two questions:

1) Is it viable to use an all-Terminator army? By which I mean are you going into every battle at a severe disadvantage just for having all Terminators? As I understand it that Strike Force Ultra box has a dataslate with special rules if you field the entire thing. The box seems to contain:


1x Terminator Captain (w/Power Sword & Storm Bolter it looks like; I'm guessing this is a monopose kit so no conversion opportunities :()
2x Assault Squads, 5 each (guessing these are regular Termies that can be made into Assault or Storm Bolter guys)
2x Terminator Squads, 5 each (as above guessing these can be made as normal or Assault Squad)
1x Land Raider Crusader or Redeemer (parts for both? Not sure)
1x Venerable Dreadnought
1x Stormraven Gunship


2) Is the above a good buy to start? It seems to be a fairly nice sized force (because Terminators, but still I think that comes to close to 1500 points) and provide a solid core, assuming that Terminators aren't auto-lose of course.

[DWest]

GW released separate kits for the Assault and "Tactical" (for want of an actual term) Terminator Squads; there most likely will only be the standard parts from each, so you're probably locked into 2x5 shooty terms and 2x5 assault terms. As far as points value, the "everything you see here" config for the box adds up to 1,630 points.

As far as table viability goes, I think in 7th edition an all Terminator army would be hard to make work; you're always going to have a low model count and the push over the last 2 editions has been larger armies, and a larger volume of fire overall. If you were going to do it, I'd honestly recommend something using the Iron Hands Chapter Tactics; 6+ Feel No Pain isn't amazing, but it's better than nothing.

[Blood Shadow]

I think it's fairly viable at 1500 points, above that there's going to be a lot more AP2 as people tend to fill their next 250 points with armour/ anti armour.

You'd need to run Landraiders to get around the board and have long range anti armour support.

But if you like the best of the best of the best, then go for the best of the best of the best bestist and go for GKT, Grey knights terminators come as troops so stock with objective secured, are cheaper, come with a fantastic array of CCW and are psykers....still need Landraiders or Stormravens to get about and provide anti tank

Edit:

Or GK Paladins, the best of the best of the best bestist best!!!!

[Reldane]

A thing to note about Terminators is that they pay a lot of points for the impoved surviabiltiy of the 2+ save, however with a lot of current codexs having surplus of ap2 weapons (grav, plasma, pretty much anything from the eldar book via not rending). it can make it very hard to justify the investment in terminators essecaily the "tatical" versions.

if you want to make it work and don't mind the look of the Centurians swapping 2, 3 men units of Centruian devistators for the tactical Terminators will help you bring better ranged firepower. A libraian can also help either with Santic with the hopes of impoveing invunable saves, or divination for rerolls on the Centurians along with the 4++ again for the Centurians.

If you can you would be best swapping the powersword on the captain for a specailist weapon as the stormbolter prevents you from getting the bonus attack from 2 combat weapons. The other option would be to spend more points on gearing the captain in which case the Shield Eternal and a powerfist would be my recomendation

[Lord Krungharr]

While I didn't think of Objective Secured on the GK Termies, I would vote for either Space Wolves or Dark Angels for Terminator armies. The DA have the Deathwing assault, and those Knights which beat down pretty much everyone, including killing my Angraath on Turn 1 in a game (though that was in 6th with an unfortunately positioned failed Grounding Test).

The Space Wolves get all sorts of neat weapons now, and storm shields too if you want; plus don't they have all the different kinds of Land Raiders? But yeah, the GKs do have all sorts of nice psychic stuff....so maybe GKs with Space Wolves would be a nice idea? Certainly good looking. Not very fluffy to have SW w DA though, so might not wanna do that :)

[daboarder]

you probably only need 1 assault squad. grab more support options would be my advice

[DarkLink]

Having run this before, lbeit with the previous codex, you can make a solid terminator army. You will have baad maatchups, but:

Librarian, ML3 135
5 Paladins, 2 Psycannons, Apothecary, 2 Hammers 355
2x5 GKT, 2 Hammers, 1 Psycannon, Land Raider 910
Draigo 245
Dreadknight, Teleporter, Incinerator, Psycannon 215

Should add up to 1860. Tweak as needed. It takes some skill to play, contrary to popular belief elite armies are not point and click. If you make a mistake, you have little to no leeway. But I wouldn't feel bad taking that to a competitive tournament.

[daboarder]

Having run this before, lbeit with the previous codex, you can make a solid terminator army. You will have baad maatchups, but:

Librarian, ML3 135
5 Paladins, 2 Psycannons, Apothecary, 2 Hammers 355
2x5 GKT, 2 Hammers, 1 Psycannon, Land Raider 910
Draigo 245
Dreadknight, Teleporter, Incinerator, Psycannon 215

Should add up to 1860. Tweak as needed. It takes some skill to play, contrary to popular belief elite armies are not point and click. If you make a mistake, you have little to no leeway. But I wouldn't feel bad taking that to a competitive tournament.

A chaos Variant would be something like

Chaos Lord, MoN, Terminator armour, Sigil, Burning Brand, Chainfist, Blight grenades

ML3 Sorc, MoN, TA, Blight grenades

6 Terminators, Axes, Heavy flamer, MoN
5 Terminators, Axes, Reaper, MoN
5 Terminators, Axes, Reaper, MoN

Heldrake
Heldrake

Defiler

2Oblits, MoN
2Oblits, MoN

1847.

And I'll throw down that I completely agree with darklink, expect to lose a lot of games as you learn how far you can push your army.

Commonly it looks to be that you want roughly 3 units of terminators and then spend the rest on support options.

[Wayniac]

So basically my answer is "Maybe, but probably not if you use Codex: Space Marines" :(

[jmimbs]

I just noticed last night that in 30k there is a Rite of War called Pride of the Legion that makes Terminators into troop choices, so that might be an option. Not sure if that's something you're interested in though. Personally I think the Cataphractii armor looks amazing, haha.

[Katharon]

Dark Angels do this sort of thing best. Really.

[Houghten]

GW released separate kits for the Assault and "Tactical" (for want of an actual term) Terminator Squads; there most likely will only be the standard parts from each, so you're probably locked into 2x5 shooty terms and 2x5 assault terms. As far as points value, the "everything you see here" config for the box adds up to 1,630 points.

The standard parts would still net you a full 20 Assault Terminators, but they'd have to be ten lightning claws and ten thunder hammers.

You couldn't do 20 shooty Terminators, though. You only get ten storm bolters, which is two short of 3x5 even with heavy weapons, let alone 4x5.

[daboarder]

So basically my answer is "Maybe, but probably not if you use Codex: Space Marines" :(

not really, you'd have to go unbound but you could do a SM variant with its own flavour.

Something like

Chapter master/ Lysander/Marneus

2x Shooty squads
1xHammenators
Land raider/Storm Raven
some dreads for spice

but they do tend to have less support options or bonuses like the other armeis

- - - Updated - - -


Dark Angels do this sort of thing best. Really.

I disagree, not enough support options and too many PPM

[Katharon]

I disagree, not enough support options and too many PPM

That depends largely on the skill of the player in question. I've seen numerous times where a skilled DA player with all Termeis carried the day even without support options.

[DarkLink]

Against average opponents and armies, certainly. But for the most part, competitive armies can just force too many armor saves for deathwing to be viable.

[jeffersonian000]

With the new GK Nemesis Strike Formation, there is no need for Land Raiders anymore as your entire army can start Deep Striking on turn 1. TDA heavy GK lists are back in vogue, with max Jump NDK, troop TDA, TDA buff HQs, TDA LoW with Gate, and a squad or 2 of PA Shunters with Flamers. A bit of a mono-build, but very much the most optimized playstyle for GKs.

SJ

[Defenestratus]

Who cares if its viable or not. If you like the look and feel of the army then you'll always find people to play against you.

Its not about winning, its about having fun playing the game.

[energongoodie]

I'm gonna give it a go using Wolf Guard. I shall report back when I have done so :)

[DarkLink]

With the new GK Nemesis Strike Formation, there is no need for Land Raiders anymore as your entire army can start Deep Striking on turn 1. TDA heavy GK lists are back in vogue, with max Jump NDK, troop TDA, TDA buff HQs, TDA LoW with Gate, and a squad or 2 of PA Shunters with Flamers. A bit of a mono-build, but very much the most optimized playstyle for GKs.

SJ

Land Raiders and deepstriking fill very different roles.

[Wayniac]

Who cares if its viable or not. If you like the look and feel of the army then you'll always find people to play against you.

Its not about winning, its about having fun playing the game.

While this is true, losing every game especially when it's just because the game is so unbalanced that what you like is bad, is going to piss anyone off and make them frustrated. With the investment involved in 40k I'd rather not end up spending hundreds of dollars just to basically auto-lose. It's not a matter of being concerned finding people to play against, it's not wanting to get frustrated by putting time and effort into an army that can't win and then just end up always losing. Winning might not be everything but when you always lose it gets upsetting.

If terminators aren't viable, how are Sternguard/Vanguard? A 1st Company army could also fit my idea/theme without being entirely Terminators, but the typical SM mix wouldn't.

[This Dave]

While costly points wise an all Sternguard force can be terrifying as they have the right weapon for any situation at all times, and are even decent in assault as they come with two attacks base. Especially if you use Crimson Fist Chapter Tactics as that gives them Objective Secured too.

[Wayniac]

While costly points wise an all Sternguard force can be terrifying as they have the right weapon for any situation at all times, and are even decent in assault as they come with two attacks base. Especially if you use Crimson Fist Chapter Tactics as that gives them Objective Secured too.

I might have to consider that. I Just really like the idea of having an elite strike team of Space Marines, but I want to invent my own Chapter for the most part so I don't want to use Grey Knights or something like that; Crimson Fists still IIRC use Imperial Fist tactics so they're still fairly generic, and while I'd have to have my own counts-as Pedro Kantor for the other benefits he's fairly generic too so I wouldn't feel weird using him as my own guy. Only possible issue is that I know a store is having an escalation league soon and something tells me that a lot of costly units won't work too well in that format ;)

[Da Gargoyle]

I have played against terminator heavy armies. One lad who loved the DA set up for terminators. He equipped his squads with Storm Shield and Thunder Hammer, deep struck with two to three units and hung in there for that first turn. In bigger games he included a predator, snipers and tac marines for long range shootin. I watched him drop in front of a 1500 IG force, lose 9 or 10 marines and then just walk through the guard with the survivors.

The other lad was in a recent 750 point tourny. Two termy squads, one of which had the head honcho and a long range tactical squad, against my Eldar. He had some enhancement to invulnerable saves, and it was a close run game with him winning on victory points because my Spirit Seer bottled it and my Warlocks threw their spears like fairies.

I think they would be competative, but you would need something that gives you the slightly better 4+ invun save.

Though it is funny when you see a Storm Guardian squad hold up a Termy squad in C/C for for turns. It brought the image of the Monty Python fish dance.

[Arkhan Land]

Personally One of the things that gets me about termie armies is that they have really specified roles and dont move ridiculously quickly meaning a savy opponent can end up letting you attack his raider armour with your L-claws and troops with P-fists (see that Storn Guardian battle a post above). sometimes its better to have one or two more all purpose troops.
Also on survivability I have only once ever destroyed a friend of mine's Belial+Chaplain+Apothecary DA-Command Sqaud nightmare thing in about a dozen games, the thing is tough.

[vonDietdrich]

If terminators aren't viable, how are Sternguard/Vanguard? A 1st Company army could also fit my idea/theme without being entirely Terminators, but the typical SM mix wouldn't.

The big problem with standard Terminators is that you just don't get enough heavy weapons in a squad of 10 of them to make them viable in a shooting capacity. Assault terminators are great at what they do. Regular terminators.. notsomuch. If it can't be killed with a bolter, you're going to have problems.

The Strike Force Ultra box is mostly awesome. The two vehicles are necessary staples of an elite army, as both Land Raiders and Storm Ravens will shield your relatively few models from all the shots that your opponent would normally try to drown you in, hoping you roll 1's on your saves. Assault Terminators are fine, especially in a Land Raider. Terminator Captains do work, though you'll want to kit him out with something that's not a Storm Bolter/Power Sword. Dreads are fantastic, though it pretty much requires a drop pod to be effective. I guess you could deliver it with the Storm Raven, but.. meh, 35 points is a pittance for the havoc that a good Turn One drop can cause.

It's the 10 regular Terminators where you run into trouble.

So basically you've got four guys that want to shoot infantry and one dude that wants to shoot heavy targets, and ideally you just want to get all of them into melee because power fists are better than anything they can do in the shooting phase. If you can deliver them into the enemy, they'll slaughter everything, but then they might as well just be Assault terminators and you paid a premium for their guns (which aren't as effective as their melee abilities in the first place). And so, in all Terminator army, ironically it's the generalist terminators that are the least effective for their points. A single five-man squad of them could be fine for defending objectives against infantry and light vehicles, but more than 5 is a waste.

My point is, a 'nothing but Terminators' army isn't viable, but a 'mostly Terminators with some vehicles and support' is fine.

Something like this would be very playable:

Terminator Captain, The Burning Blade/Power Sword (4 attacks at S7 AP2 at regular initiative, plus I've always wanted to model a Terminator dual-wielding power swords)
x5 Assault Terminators, 3 Lightning Claws, 2 Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield
Land Raider Crusader

x5 Assault Terminators, 3 Lightning Claws, 2 Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield
Land Raider Crusader

Dreadnought, Heavy Flamer, Twin-Linked Heavy Flamer (It's not there for killing vehicles, although it can with the Power Fist. Ideally you'll drop it on a large squad of infantry and melt them on turn one.)
Drop Pod

x5 Devastators, 2 Lascannons, 2 Missile Launchers, Bolt Pistol/Chainsword Sergeant (mostly because modeling eight lascannons would get boring, but also if your meta is flyer-heavy you can buy the Skyfire upgrade or switch to frag missiles versus infantry)
Razorback, TL Lascannon

x5 Devastators, 2 Lascannons, 2 Missile Launchers, Bolt Pistol/Chainsword Sergeant (with two squads you have six lascannon shots per turn and four ML shots out to 48", supporting your terminators from anywhere on the board. You can also switch them around to one group of lascannon devastators and one of missiles.)
Razorback, TL Lascannon

x5 Sternguard Veterans, 2 Grav Guns
Drop Pod

1855 points

The basic idea of the army is to use the two Crusaders as a spearhead to quickly deliver the Assault Terminators to your enemy, while simultaneously engaging the enemy at range with the Devastators and Razorbacks to soften up or eliminate priority targets (Wraithknights, Riptides, Imperial Knights et al). Your opponent has to choose whether he wants to focus his firepower on the Crusaders or the support elements, and you screw with his decision-making process by dropping a Dreadnought somewhere annoying and hopefully incinerating his troops (or at least blocking him with the pod and setting up a decent second turn charge). Follow up the Dreadnought's deployment with the Sternguard on the second turn, because if the Dreadnought's flamers can't kill it, the two grav guns will. Or just drop them somewhere else that's annoying. Meanwhile, the LRCs advance and hopefully get your Terminators into assault by turn two while laying down covering fire with the assault cannons. If necessary, redeploy your devastators to take objectives.

You could certainly do worse. It has enough shots to mow down infantry-heavy armies (from the two LRCs and the dreadnought, 24 twin-linked bolter shots from the hurricane bolters and 8 TL shots from the assault cannons plus two heavy flamer templates, one TL), enough heavy weaponry to kill Knights quickly, not much can beat it in Assault, it's mobile (everything's in a transport or pod), the LRCs will be beastly for drawing aggro, good long-range firepower from the Devastators/Razorbacks, and the two drop pods give you a measure of early board control and disruption (and you can also mix up the order, dropping the Sternguard first if you see an opening for the grav guns). It won't lose by default against popular strategies, gives you flexible strategies, and will put up a stiff fight against almost all list types while still being about elite Space Marines and their pimp mobiles.

Hope that helps, good luck.

[Thornblood]

If you were to add anything to that list, I would vote for a chaplain, and for him and an assault terminator squad to hang out in a land raider crusader/redeemer together.