Why I love the Vengeance Weapons Batteries as scoring units!

[JMichael]

Vengeance Weapon Batteries are my new favorite army addition!
75pts each (up to 2/Fortification slot), AV14, 3HPs (small building), emplaced weapon (Punisher Gatling, BattleCannon, Quad-Icarus Lascannon).
Now the weapons are only BS2, but that is not why I love them. Bummer is that automated weapons still have to fire at the closest enemy, so those Quad-Icarus Skyfire lascannons can be nurfed if a non-flyer unit is closer (unless using Interceptor and the Flyer is closer than any other reserves unit).

They are buildings that have no occupancy capacity and can thus never be claimed by your opponent. They are always yours and are scoring units! This is what I love about them!
For 75pts you get a tough scoring weaponized building! I have been taking two and just deploying them right next to 1-2 objectives!
They have no Faction and my Eldar love to cast Guide on the Punisher Gatling gun (24", Heavy20).

Because some of my recent opponents have been surprised that they are scoring here are page ref.
p112 Claiming Buildings - All buildings taken as part of your army are claimed by you and will remain so until an enemy unit enters it.
p134 Scoring Units - Claimed buildings count as a scoring unit from the claiming player's army.

[DrLove42]

To make you love em a little more they dont have to shoot closest target.

According to Stronghole Assault, the Firestorm Redoubt has the rule they must shoot the closest target. But these only have the rule that they can autofire. It doesnt say must be at closest target

[Katharon]

Just make sure that no use this wisely and in fun matches. I have a feeling that in any other setting you might walk away with a shiner.

[JMichael]

To make you love em a little more they dont have to shoot closest target.

According to Stronghole Assault, the Firestorm Redoubt has the rule they must shoot the closest target. But these only have the rule that they can autofire. It doesnt say must be at closest target

The Errata for Stronghold Assault say to ignore the Updated Buildings rules (which is where the Sentry Defense System is)and instead refer to the main rulebook.
That is on p112 and states that emplaced weapons that are not manned use the Automated Fire rules, which do state they must shoot at the closest enemy unit.

[Mike X]

Bummer is that automated weapons still have to fire at the closest enemy, so those Quad-Icarus Skyfire lascannons can be nurfed if a non-flyer unit is closer (unless using Interceptor and the Flyer is closer than any other reserves unit).

And the battlecannon is nerfed whenever a flying unit is the closest.

Unfortunately that means the punisher variant, which is the basic loadout, is the only viable choice... and it's weak as hell.

[Denzark]

I thought they were fortifications - how the hell does that score?

[JMichael]

And the battlecannon is nerfed whenever a flying unit is the closest.

Unfortunately that means the punisher variant, which is the basic loadout, is the only viable choice... and it's weak as hell.

Yup.
A simple errata for Automated Fire Sentry guns could fix this. The Firestorm Redoubt's Icarus lascannons has a Primary Target rule that forces it to target Flyers first. I'm surprised that the BAO RUles Addendum didn't fix this (they clarified that weapon must shoot at the nearest 'legal' target even if it can't hurt it).

Something like this would be helpful, even as a house rule. 3 different Primary Target types and just state which weapons use which type.

Primary Target Flyers (any weapon with Skyfire): Must shoot at closest Zooming Flyer or Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature.
Primary Target Vehicle/MC (Battle Cannon): Must shoot at the nearest non-Zooming Vehicle or non-Swooping Monstrous Creature.
Primary Target Infantry (Punisher Gatling, Heavy Bolter): Must shoot at the nearest infantry or non-Swooping Monstrous Creature.

[Badtucker]

I thought they were fortifications - how the hell does that score?

exactly , fortifications cant score

[JMichael]

exactly , fortifications cant score

Under terrain type it is listed as an Impassable Building.
Some fortifications ARE also buildings (specifically stated in the Stronghold Assault book under 'Fortification Upgrades-Buildings')

[Denzark]

They still cannot score

[Charon]

They still cannot score

They can...
BRB Scoring Units


Scoring Units
Any unit can be a scoring unit, unless:
• It is a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature, a Zooming Flyer or is a unit currently embarked on a Zooming Flyer.
• It has a special rule specifying that it never counts as a scoring unit.
• It is currently Falling Back (if the unit Regroups it immediately reverts to being a scoring unit again).
• It is a building or fortification that is unclaimed (claimed buildings count as a scoring unit from the claiming player’s army).

He even provides that in his first posting, still some guys want to ignore it.

[JMichael]

He even provides that in his first posting

Indeed I did! :)

[JMichael]

They still cannot score

If you have read the posts and page ref #'s and still think they are not scoring, would you mind providing some info and page #'s to support your argument?
Maybe there is something I am missing in the rules or Stronghold Assault?

[JMichael]

I played in a tournament last week and several people were not only surprised that it was scoring, but grumbled about it being cheesy and a loophole.
I've only used it a few times so far. And most often when players, including myself, place objectives their may be one in each deployment zone, and the rest in the center. One game I played had all 3 in the center (2 of them I placed there).
In 1 match I did place it next to an objective, but I also held that same objective with 3 other scoring units. And obviously any scoring unit will contest it, and if the have Objective Secured they will hold it!

[John Bower]

Actually while it says ignore the updated building rules; the Firestorm stuff is not part of the updated building rules it's part of it's data sheet. So it still counts. It still fires at a flyer regardless first then closest unit if no flyer available. Another case of misinterpretation. Updated building rules are separate to the dataslates for the fortifications in the SA book. It's that part about how they are used and so on that is to be ignored. Not the dataslates and their relevant special rules.

[JMichael]

Actually while it says ignore the updated building rules; the Firestorm stuff is not part of the updated building rules it's part of it's data sheet. So it still counts. It still fires at a flyer regardless first then closest unit if no flyer available. Another case of misinterpretation. Updated building rules are separate to the dataslates for the fortifications in the SA book. It's that part about how they are used and so on that is to be ignored. Not the dataslates and their relevant special rules.

Yup. Its just a bummer that the Quad Icarus on the Firestorm gets the 'primary target' rule but not the same weapon on the Vengeance Weapons battery.
So my Quad Icarus had to snap shot at infantry who were were closer than the flyer.

[John Bower]

Yup. Its just a bummer that the Quad Icarus on the Firestorm gets the 'primary target' rule but not the same weapon on the Vengeance Weapons battery.
So my Quad Icarus had to snap shot at infantry who were were closer than the flyer.

Ah sorry; I must have misunderstood you; I thought you meant that was why you preferred the Vengeance to the Firestorm Redoubt; my apologies. :)

[JMichael]

Another good one is the Void Shield Generator. Impassable building. I believe it could only be claimed by Jump infantry, FMCs, and Skimmers that can reach the battlement on top. If you put a Devastator squad up there...good luck rolling the charge distance to get to them!

In my recent games with the Vengeance Weapon batteries, when I remind them it is scoring (when I deploy it) they and occasionally bystanders will say, "Fortifications can't score." Where are people getting this idea?
I went though Stronghold Assault and there are 6 Fortifications that aren't buildings and thus can't score. But 8 that are buildings/scoring units. Some of those are multipart building and could, I believe, then score multiple objectives!
I think because many people haven't read or aren't familiar with Stronghold Assault this takes them by surprise. Which is why I tell them and dont' just assume or hide that info until it comes up later in the game.

- - - Updated - - -


I thought they were fortifications - how the hell does that score?

What makes you think Fortifications can't score? 8 of the 14 Fortifications are buildings and thus can score as per the Rulebook under Scoring Units (p134). I keep hearing people use that statement, and it makes no sense and I don't find that statement/rule anywhere in any of the books.

[Pssyche]

JMichael.
What, if anything, have the Tournament Organizers had to say about your Tactic?
Have they been aware in advance that your Buildings are Scoring Units or have you had to convince them of it, too?

[JMichael]

JMichael.
What, if anything, have the Tournament Organizers had to say about your Tactic?
Have they been aware in advance that your Buildings are Scoring Units or have you had to convince them of it, too?

The TO was not happy (even though every table had an Imperial Bastion in the center) and did not realize that buildings are scoring units. I had to show him in the rulebook and I think he thought it was a cheesy or loophole type of move on my part.

Personally I don't think it is any different that taking a Void Shield Generator (which is cheaper, btw) or any other building. For an opponent to claim one of your buildings will most likely not be an easy task anyway.

I think it comes down to most players here not having the Stronhold Assault book (even though they use Aegis Defence lines) and just not used to or famlier with the rules for Buildings. Honestly I very rarely see anyone take them at all!

[Geryon]

They have no Faction and my Eldar love to cast Guide on the Punisher Gatling gun (24", Heavy20).

I tried to find the faction reference but couldn't...Could you please post some more details where the No-faction is written as well as where it states that you can cast blessings on a non-battle brothers faction?
Playing Eldar myself and it can be usefull!!!
Thanx!

[Gorgoff]

And the battlecannon is nerfed whenever a flying unit is the closest.

Unfortunately that means the punisher variant, which is the basic loadout, is the only viable choice... and it's weak as hell.
You can't shoot a flier with a Template weapon, so no automatic shooting at fliers. For example you can't shoot at units you can't see as well. So you don't have to.

[Ezaviel]

I tried to find the faction reference but couldn't...Could you please post some more details where the No-faction is written as well as where it states that you can cast blessings on a non-battle brothers faction?
Playing Eldar myself and it can be usefull!!!
Thanx!

Choosing an Army > Detachments > Factions.

"Note that Fortifications are an exception in that, unless otherwise stated on their datasheet, they do not have a faction."

I can't find a quote that supports being able to cast spells on factionless units. I presume he is extrapolating that since all units in a Combined Arms detachment "must have the same faction (or have no faction)" that they default to "friendly" with all factions? But that's a guess.

The levels of alliance rules say they only effect units which "have different Factions". I guess the question becomes: "Does being factionless mean you have a different faction to a unit with a faction"?.

Arguably, they must be friendly, as units can embark in them. And you may only embark on friendly (Battle Brother) transports, and buildings count as transports with regard to embarking.

[JMichael]

I tried to find the faction reference but couldn't...Could you please post some more details where the No-faction is written as well as where it states that you can cast blessings on a non-battle brothers faction?
Playing Eldar myself and it can be usefull!!!
Thanx!

I was just assuming, I guess. But p14 defines 'friendly models' as being 'all models on the same side are friendly models'.
They Ally matrix has some additional rules regarding Battle Brothers and such, but since it doesn't state anything about Factionless models, I would have to say that they are still friendly.
It may also go that even if I had two CADs, one Imperial and the other Eldar that any Fortifications taken by both sides would still be friendly to both (Imperial CAD has a Vengeance Gun Battery. It would still be a friendly unit to the Eldar in my 2nd CAD).