End Times - Let the rampant speculation begin!

[Mr Mystery]

Well, I've just finished Nagash, volume one of The End Times.

Anyone care to speculate on where it will go from here?

I reckon we might see a unified Elven nation, one way or another. All three, fighting as one....

[Cap'nSmurfs]

All three, yes. Fighting as one... not quite. Someone is going to have to draw the Sword of Khaine, I think. Might well be Tyrion, but who can say? We're told there's an Ancient Lie dividing the Elven race - was Malekith the rightful king all along? Did the fires of Asuryan really reject him, or was there a fix...?

The Skaven will have a big part to play, I think.

[Mr Mystery]

Well.....regarding the Flames of Asuryan.....worth noting that the Priests normally have to do rituals and that on the would-be Phoenix, and the only Elf to try it without those is Malekith....

Skaven already have. No more Tilea or Estalia! All gone!

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Tilea and Estalia is small fry, especially when you know that the Skaven's contribution can range as high as defeating Nagash. What I mean is that their machinations might tip the scales on something very big, not just overrun two small, offscreen nations.

[Scion_of_Terra]

A Crusade Fleet parks in orbit :)

Abhorash, immune to Nagash's compulsion on account of the dragon's blood, joins with the Empire and frees Mannfred; the Von Carsteins are reinstated as Elector Counts as a result.

Karl Franz is killed on the battlefield; dying, he names Valthen his successor

The next book will be called "Malekith." The fourth one will be called "Sigmar."

Malus Darkblade kills Hellebron on Morathi's orders and becomes Khainite Pope

Imrik signs on with Malekith to combat the Chaos invasion

The Orcs all band together for a worldwide Waaagh! in book 2 or 3.

[Anggul]

All three, yes. Fighting as one... not quite. Someone is going to have to draw the Sword of Khaine, I think. Might well be Tyrion, but who can say? We're told there's an Ancient Lie dividing the Elven race - was Malekith the rightful king all along? Did the fires of Asuryan really reject him, or was there a fix...?

The Skaven will have a big part to play, I think.

I would have thought the ancient lie would be Morathi's blatant manipulation of Malekith.

Asuryan clearly wasn't pleased with him, and the Everqueen chose Bel-Shanaar. The only lie I can imagine is that someone lied about what the Everqueen said, but I think she probably would have brought it up the moment it happened.

Who knows how long Tyrion can resist the Widowmaker under these circumstances. He's managed very well so far considering the various perils that have come about, but this one is the biggest rush of problems. If he took the Widowmaker he would cleave through the nasties but at the obvious cost of losing the best warrior in the world.

Also interesting to see what Abhorash does. Also W'soran if he's still about.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

It's heavily implied by their absence that W'soran and Abhorash are not still around.

There's three candidates for the Sword of Khaine. There's Tyrion, obviously. There's Malekith, naturally. And then... then there's Teclis, isn't there? Interesting.

The Emperor has already been wounded severely in battle, and is now missing beyond the frontline. He's still kicking names and taking ***, though (such a cool short story: Karl Franz is the Emperor of my heart).

[eldargal]

W'soran is well deded in the novel Neferata, Abhorash being ded would be new though I think.

[Mr Mystery]

I thought Zacharias jobbed W'Soran?

[eldargal]

Someone did, I just know Neferata mentioned it at the start of her novel. Forgeet if it happened in the novel later or not.

[Mr Mystery]

Oh poo.

I'll just have to re-read the Neferata novel

http://img1.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120830154547/blackadder/images/b/bd/Don_Speekingleesh.jpg

[Wildeybeast]

Durthu stops being mad and realises he is super duper powerful, tells Orion to go grab the Widow maker to whack Nagash with while he heals the world with trees.

[Reldane]

There's three candidates for the Sword of Khaine. There's Tyrion, obviously. There's Malekith, naturally. And then... then there's Teclis, isn't there? Interesting.

Malekith has at least twice regretted the sword of Khaine (although for him it is a mace), not that I would rule out the possibility however it wouldn't be fitting for Malekith to take the sword. One of my favorite pieces of Elf lore was the story of when one of the phoenix kings attempted to take the sword of khaine, battled though the assassins and shadow warriors to reach the shrine where upon the phoenix guard turned on their king to prevent anyone from claiming it.

[Mr Mystery]

Looks like Mazdamundi is coming out to play!

There's a (hopefully not fake) image in the rumours thread.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

It looks pretty ****in' fake to me, man.

[Zithaska]

In broad strokes...

Nagash kicks the crap out of the Chaos Hordes, eating the four avatars of the Chaos Gods that bowed before Archaeon.

Then, all of the other races meet for a desperate alliance in a cataclysmic battle against Nagash... which Nagash wins.

However, each race in their own special way weakens Nagash almost to the breaking point. It may be Nagash's moment of victory, but it is also his moment of greatest weakness. So right as Nagash is about to enact the Great Work (i.e. kill the world), Arkhan uses the spark of knowledge/humanity that Alianthra gave him right before he sacrificed her to exploit the weakness in Nagash's resurrection ritual to strike down Nagash

All of the races are too exhausted to capitalize on each other's moment of weakness, so it basically ends in a stalemate. Everyone heads back to their respective kingdoms to begin the long process of rebuilding.

The Empire absorbs all of the provinces of Men who cannot stand on their own anymore (e.g. Kislev, Border Princes, possibly Araby, basically everyone but Bretonnia). The Elves, realizing that they are on the brink of annihilation, get to the point where they are at least not at each other's throats and begin to cooperate in order to survive. Chaos heads back to the Wastes to lick their wounds, knowing they will not be able to threaten the world again for another thousand years.

There's so much magic that has been released in the world that now great hero's are being churned out of the woodwork to deal with the shattered, and now even more dangerous, world. Also, due to the huge number of dead, the armies of the races are much smaller than they were before Nagash's return. The races of Order at least will have to ally more to deal with the great threats out there as none of them have the power to truly go it alone anymore.

Welcome to 9th Edition Warhammer, where you can spend more points on lords and heros (maybe 30-35%), and therefore need fewer troops. And you can take your allies in your army as well.

Which all sounds pretty good to me. I cannot wait to put my Archmage on a Star Dragon with combined stats, rocking the Book of Hoeth and a Talisman of Protection.

[Anggul]

Of interest will be the greenskins. One simply cannot ignore the factor of a massive horde of green brutes smashing into your army of world domination.

You also have Grimgor to deal with, who tends to be an issue.

There are so many things to consider all in a relatively short distance of one another, that's one of the things that makes an 'end times' scenario so interesting in Fantasy.

I wonder if perhaps Abhorash is going to see what's going on, get tired of everyone's crap and come down to beat some face. Then again, maybe he'll just sit on his mountain and wait it out.

[Mr Mystery]

Of interest will be the greenskins. One simply cannot ignore the factor of a massive horde of green brutes smashing into your army of world domination.

You also have Grimgor to deal with, who tends to be an issue.

There are so many things to consider all in a relatively short distance of one another, that's one of the things that makes an 'end times' scenario so interesting in Fantasy.

I wonder if perhaps Abhorash is going to see what's going on, get tired of everyone's crap and come down to beat some face. Then again, maybe he'll just sit on his mountain and wait it out.

I think it's much more Skarsnik you want to keep your beady red eyes on...

Grimgor is confirmed to not be fussed about leading. He's just looking for the biggest fight he can find, and happens to tow around a vast number of tribes.

Skarsnik though? He's cunnin', and fighty too. And he is a born leader.

I know which I'd consider the bigger threat!

[Wildeybeast]

Grimgor will definitely want to fight Nagash when he hears about him.

[Mr Mystery]

And will last about three seconds at most :p

[Morgrim]

If he comes charging in at a particularly inconvenient moment - say Nagash is attempting to do something tricky against Chaos, or for bonus points in the middle of a duel against Archaon the Everchosen - then those three seconds may be all that's needed to throw a very large green wrench into a lot of carefully laid plans. And it seems that in WFB that tends to be explosive.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

If Abhorash was still around, he'd have been in Nagash's army. I'm pretty sure of this. It says that only three of Nagash's ancient servants are still around: Neferata, Krell, and Arkhan.

[Mr Mystery]

If Abhorash was still around, he'd have been in Nagash's army. I'm pretty sure of this. It says that only three of Nagash's ancient servants are still around: Neferata, Krell, and Arkhan.

True.

Unless in freeing himself from the curse of blood thirst, he has also somehow severed himself from Nagash entirely?

[Cap'nSmurfs]

That also is possible! But his branch of the big happy Vampire family was represented by Walach Harkon in Nagash's army. Which, uh, went well.

[Mr Mystery]

So.......

What is Nagash not taking into account? I've noted two things....

1. Aliathra did something before being sacrificed. And it doesn't appear related to her true lineage.
2. Before getting scoffed to power a potent spell, Valaya spoke to Throek about something. Being a Goddess, can we reasonably assume she knew her own fate, and thus might be to equivalent in ill advised diet to Nagash as an extra hot Prawn Vindaloo of indeterminate vintage washed down with 15 pints of Lager to my very own digestive system?

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Aliathra specifically did something to Arkhan. What it is, we have no idea.

[swope]

Abhorash was never a servant of Nagash... the last real fluff about him that I can recall was about him freeing himself from the vampire curse by eating an Emperor Dragon.. he wouldnt have to bend his knee to Nagash.. as he is now Immune to all things to do with undead as he isnt truly a vampire anymore.. but somet5hing much more.. he is Immortal with none of the undead strings attacted... he would be easily a match for any hero in warhammer fantasy.... he would give Nagash a run for his money no doubt... fluff wise even Archy would be a chump in combat compared to him

Think of this he defended the gates of Lahmian by him self against the combined armies of all of Nehekara... before he drank the blood of the emporer dragon... scary haha

[eldargal]

So an elven goddess intervened to help ensure Aliathra was sacrificed, I sense shenanigans. Between that and Morgiana's oh so convenient delivery to Mannfred and Alarielle being drawn to Ariel and then going into her little underground house thing I think there is definitely nature goddess plotting afoot. Lileath or Isha? Both?

On the subject of Abhorash if he isn't dead want to bet he fights Nagash to protect the innocent and so forth? He was big on that at one point.

[Mr Mystery]

I'm kind of hoping for a new Elven pantheon.

Imagine if Tyrion, Malekith and Orion all combined powers. It would make the weirdest looking combiner evar, but would be a total badass!

[eldargal]

Might be some new additions certainly, doubt it will be entirely new. I hope not anyway because it would mean doing something like the Fall where all the elven gods die and that would both suck and be really unoriginal.

I think Teclis might die, just a feeling. Malekith, Tyrion, Teclis all die along with Imrik and the Everqueen abolishes the Phoenix Throne as too obnoxious and reverts to the old single rule matriarchy they had before.:p

[Mr Mystery]

I guess.

Would absolutely love to see an Elven nature Goddess on the table though - or even one of her Greater Daemons. Though one supposes that could be best described as a Treeman?

[Wildeybeast]

So an elven goddess intervened to help ensure Aliathra was sacrificed, I sense shenanigans. Between that and Morgiana's oh so convenient delivery to Mannfred and Alarielle being drawn to Ariel and then going into her little underground house thing I think there is definitely nature goddess plotting afoot. Lileath or Isha? Both?

On the subject of Abhorash if he isn't dead want to bet he fights Nagash to protect the innocent and so forth? He was big on that at one point.

Well, it's clearly Liileath who sends Araloth off through the portal as she is long time patron.

[Mr Mystery]

Well, it's clearly Liileath who sends Araloth off through the portal as she is long time patron.

That comes after Aerial and Alarielle 'sort of meet we assume'

Could it be the pair of them?

[Archon Charybdis]

I'm kind of hoping for a new Elven pantheon.

Imagine if Tyrion, Malekith and Orion all combined powers. It would make the weirdest looking combiner evar, but would be a total badass!

Well Orion already is Kurnous, but I kind of like the idea of Tyrion and Malekith as new gods, representing the light and the dark.

[Anggul]

What about the Earth Mother? Nature in purest form. None of this supernatural Everqueen business, just pure unbridled nature.

[Mr Mystery]

Indeedy.

Aerial already sort of is, but only for Athel Loren. And it's heavily implied (if not outright stated) that there are similar Forest Spirits across the Old World. Imagine that - a 'good' Deamon army.

[Mr Mystery]

Right then.

Lets get talking characters.....

Current crop of Army Books have added background for some characters, and I reckon it's all leading up to their role in The End Times.

Here's my contribution - Tullaris of Har Ganeth.

Now revealed to quite possibly be Khaine's Chosen - reported to hear voices in his head (his head, the voices in his head) driving him onwards. This could put him at odds with Malekith, who presents himself as Khaine's Chosen for purely political reasons. In short, Tullaris and Malekith have the same situation as Karl Franz and Valten - though I think it's safe to assume the Druchii solution won't be quite so Statesmanlike!

So I think it's obvious Tullaris has a role to play in The End Times - how significant remains to be seen, but he is said to be loyal to Hellebron.....

Right, next character please!

[Mr Mystery]

And time for a timeline update, based on the events of Kinslayer, which is very much part of the End Times canon.....

Aekold Helbrass - Tzeentchian sorcery of some repute, and a former special character. Lead the sack of Praag, apparently killed by falling masonry by Felix and Ulrika.

Throgg, The Troll King - Quite the surprise! Has amassed an army of Monsters, including Beastmen, Dragon Ogres, Trolls, Chimera, Harpies, Griffons, Hydras - essentially all things hideous and gribbly. Is working against Archaon, having booted Helbrass out of Praag. But more importantly - was set to form an alliance with Vlad Von Carstein to help defend The Empire! Sadly, apparently killed by Gotrek, who shoved him out a tall tower. But, being a Troll, it's entirely possible we've not seen the last of him!

[Deadlift]

Yes, I like the fact Throgg has gone his own way and amassed a "chaos" army but isn't actually fighting for Archaon. There are some very surprising potential alliances which is stirring stuff to read. I've always been more of a 40k fiction fan. But at the moment these end times are really stealing the limelight. Especially as I feel the Horus Heresy books are stagnating a bit at the moment.
Dare I say it I may actually start a fantasy army.

If Gotrek got a new sculpt I would be jumping in with both feet. Snorri would be nice but unlikely.

[Mr Mystery]

Indeedy. I was quite surprised at just how intelligent Throgg is/was.

I'd always read it more as 'intelligent - for a Troll' than 'an intelligent Troll'. Two quite different things yes!

I really hope it's not the last of Throgg. I can't imagine it is, because what sort of Troll can get jobbed by a fall??

[CrimsonTurkey]

The stuff about Throgg is interesting... I'll have to get myself a copy of that book. I love all of the understandable but unlikely alliances that a forming. I found Vlad to be both very interesting, and rather sympathetic in Nagash.

Also, has there been any word as to what Elspeth von Draken is up to at this point? Being a weird wraith-human, Geheimnisnacht can't have been much fun for her.

[Mr Mystery]

Little bit of Threadomancy - hope nobody minds, it's just with the existing topic starting a new one seemed silly.

So, Thanquol is out today. I'm currently at work, so want get my scabarous paws on it until around 5, when I shall hurry-scurry to the man-thing pub to read-understand. And that's the fourth (and if the rumours are accurate, penultimate) book in the series.

And haven't we come a long, long way from Nagash?

I don't mind admitting I didn't expect anything like the scale of carnage we've seen so far. Particularly the Elven stuff. Completely out of left field - which is no bad thing.

These momentous events are of course yet to draw to a conclusion. Indeed, every book so far has left us poised on the brink. Nagash laid low the Tomb Kings, dismembered Settra, and is now flying his Pyramid around. The Empire is sorely beset, and Karl Franz has gone all super-saiyan, which as Khaine revealed was down to Teclis mucking about with the Vortex.

Crashing on with what I've heard about Thanquol (not saying what I know, because I don't yet know anything) - Lizardmen are floating about in 'a' or 'the' void (conflicting wordings used), The Dwarfs have had a bit of a kicking, and the Skaven have allied with Archaon.

You know, I really don't think we're going to see a conclusion to End Times. Apparently, Archaon is the next book, but very little has so far been said about him in the others, except that he's doing what he does every Pinky - trying to take over the world.

I think we're seeing a shift in the Time Line, which will then be frozen again. But I don't know - we could see The End Times play out to a conclusion, and I'm betting Archaon will fail, but the world will be so ravaged the new background will be about survival rather than rebuilding as has followed previous Chaos incurions.

How about you?

[Erik Setzer]

I think we're seeing a shift in the Time Line, which will then be frozen again. But I don't know - we could see The End Times play out to a conclusion, and I'm betting Archaon will fail, but the world will be so ravaged the new background will be about survival rather than rebuilding as has followed previous Chaos incurions.

The sense I got post-SoC wasn't so much "trying to survive" as "clean-up duty." But hey, they retconned that, so that might mean nothing.

With the way Lileath sent Araloth into a pocket with their daughter so she could seed a new world, talking about rebirth, I think they're really moving to do a reset of some sort. I don't think they're blowing the world up, because that just sounds stupid, and doesn't mesh with a lot of things. I think the "cycle" Lileath mentioned will hit its peak: The Dark Gods will sweep over the world, wrecking the place. A lot of people will find some kind of refuge, probably protected by some crazy magic by Teclic (directed by Lileath). The world ends, and then "resets," but with a new look. Continents change, cultures change, stuff like that.

It goes to help change the Warhammer world from being a copy of Earth, and also serves to help as a shake-up in terms of background and gameplay, which I imagine they're looking at to help Warhammer regain some strength in sales. No idea what the end game is going to look like.

While I have a lot of nostalgia, I can't say that I won't be fine with a new world. I'd be quite alright seeing the map redrawn entirely. It's always been a bit odd that we're basically playing on fantasy Earth. They even had, in various ways, Spanish, Italian, Chinese, Japanese, and even Native American groups. Obviously Norse, and Russians. Hobgoblins were Mongolian in look and how they approached war. Khemri was Egypt. Ulthuan was Atlantis. And of course they put the Dark Elves in North America, the "evil split-offs from a great empire" (subtle, right?). Even the names used in a lot of locations, like Cathay, Nippon, Albion, etc. So yeah, changing that, maybe not so bad.