Overwatch from a Thunderfire Cannon

[jenkatron]

An odd one that has cropped up before with us (usually gets rolled off!) but it came up again in our game yesterday and a quick google couldnt find a definitive answer on how to resolve Overwatch when a Thunderfire Cannon is assaulted. How do you play overwatch from the TFC?

This is what I've got for my argument:
- When an artillery piece is assaulted crew models can fire overwatch with their side arms (if they have any).
- The TFC comes with a Techmarine Gunner with Servo-Harness (Flamer / Plasma Cutter / extra Servo Arm) as standard.
- A model can only normally shoot one ranged weapon, whether it is on overwatch attack or 'normal' shooting, unless it has a special rule which overrules this (such as monstrous creatures).
- Overwatch is a special kind of shooting attack, snapping only, and it works exactly the same as normal shooting for wound allocation / line of sight and range.
- Overwatch happens in the opponents assault phase.

My thought is that the Techmarine Gunner can overwatch, but can only do so with one weapon, the flamer OR the plasma cutter. For me, it is pretty clear wording in Codex Space Marines that "In the shooting phase, the bearer can fire both harness-mounted weapons..."

My opponent and his other playgroup play this the other way though, allow the TFC to overwatch with everything, and they justify it in fluff as "if you are getting charged by a mob you are gonna fire every gun youve got!". I remain unconvinced unless someone can point to something to allow it?

[Katharon]

Wait, are you telling me that they let the Thunderfire Cannon fire as well as the Techmarine gunner fire in Overwatch? If so, then that's plain wrong. Blast template weapons cannot Overwatch.

[Archon Charybdis]

No, you're not missing anything, the techmarine can only fire one weapon off his servo harness.If he can only fire one in the shooting phase, then he can only fire one on overwatch.

[jenkatron]

Wait, are you telling me that they let the Thunderfire Cannon fire as well as the Techmarine gunner fire in Overwatch? If so, then that's plain wrong. Blast template weapons cannot Overwatch.

Nope he is not shooting the TFC on overwatch but he is wanting to fire the gunners equipped weapons, BOTH the TL plasma cutter (s7 AP2) and then also wanting to do the wall of death with the flamer (D3 S4 AP5 auto hits), arguing that this is allowed because the servo harness allows him to shoot both!

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No, you're not missing anything, the techmarine can only fire one weapon off his servo harness.If he can only fire one in the shooting phase, then he can only fire one on overwatch.

That's not quite the case, the servo harness has a rule which allows him to fire both in the shooting phase.

What I'm arguing is that overwatch is NOT in the shooting phase.

[jenkatron]

I'm also adding two further points in here, because my reading of the MC and GUNSLINGER rules is that they both also say may fire 2 weapons in the shooting phase (both also specifically say in the shooting phase in the rulebook).

Back to my question, is overwatch in the shooting phase, can a MC / GUNSLINGER /TFC GUNNER fire two weapons on overwatch?

[Mike X]

Back to my question, is overwatch in the shooting phase, can a MC / GUNSLINGER /TFC GUNNER fire two weapons on overwatch?

No.

[Captofthe8th]

I'd say if he can shoot two guns in the shooting phase then he should also be able to shoot two guns in overwatch. The rules are ambiguous IMO, but in the spirit of the game it makes sense. Same with MCs, tau suits, dreadnoughts, etc.

[DarkLink]

No, they aren't ambiguous. You can shoot two guns in the shooting phase. Overwatch is not in the shooting phase, ergo gunslinger does not apply. Simple as that.

[John Bower]

I'd say if he can shoot two guns in the shooting phase then he should also be able to shoot two guns in overwatch. The rules are ambiguous IMO, but in the spirit of the game it makes sense. Same with MCs, tau suits, dreadnoughts, etc.

Nope, not at all; actually it's a whole different thing; shooting is a 'planned' attack which is why he can shoot both weapons, overwatch can be more thought of as going something like: "Oh cr4p, he's charging me...." Bang! With whatever weapon comes to hand. You're not aiming or getting ready for it, it just happens on the spur of a split second unlike shooting.

[CoffeeGrunt]

This debate is the same as often circulates on Tau forums from time to time. In a nutshell, there is no definite answer in the Rules As Written, and both interpretations are equally valid. It will be a matter of house ruling on this one.

[Charistoph]

No, they aren't ambiguous. You can shoot two guns in the shooting phase. Overwatch is not in the shooting phase, ergo gunslinger does not apply. Simple as that.

Oh, yeah, they are ambiguous. On one hand, the rules state a model normally can only shoot once per phase (oddly enough, this was changed from 6th), but sometimes others can fire more.

Overwatch says that it's a normal shooting attack. The question is just HOW normal?

[daboarder]

normal
albeit in the ASSAULT PHASE, while you could argue ambiguity in 6th due to the limitation on how many weapons specifying shooting phase, the change in terminology means that it is no longer ambiguous, its 1 weapon only ever in overwatch

[DarkLink]

The lack of basic reading comprehension on behalf of one party does not indicate ambiguity.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Ad hominem comments are little better. Again, this argument has circled a hundred times on every forum.

"Overwatch happens in the Assault phase, it's not in the Shooting, so it's one weapon only."

"Well actually, the limitation on one weapon per model also says, 'in the Shooting phase, so all my models can fire all their guns!'"

"Wait, what? Okay, so if Overwatch is a Shooting attack and treated with the rules for the Shooting Phase, then models that can fire additional weapons in the Shooting Phase in Overwatch?"

"Nah, it's in the Assault phase, not the Shooting phase, though."

You may also repeat this for firing in the Movement phase with Interceptor.

[daboarder]

Ad hominem comments are little better. Again, this argument has circled a hundred times on every forum.

"Overwatch happens in the Assault phase, it's not in the Shooting, so it's one weapon only."

"Well actually, the limitation on one weapon per model also says, 'in the Shooting phase, so all my models can fire all their guns!'"


you might want to read the new rules before acting like a smart arse.....

Typically, a model can only fire a single shooting weapon in the same phase, although some models, such as vehicles or monstrous creatures, can shoot two or more. Once a model has fired its maximum number of weapons, it cannot fire again that phase.

no mention of shooting phase at all in 7th, merely single phase. So the logic fallacy you are talking about doesnt even exist......

[CoffeeGrunt]

Oh, that's good. I'll be honest, I'm still loathe to pay £50 for the new rulebook, so I've been learning as I play and checking rules as I go.

GW fixing rules ambiguities. Bloody hell, I actually have a good feeling about 7th!

[John Bower]

Fair enough, if it doesn't mention the 'shooting phase' with regards to what or how many a model can fire that's fine. As to them fixing ambiguity that still hasn't entirely happened. Some rules are still a little ambiguous in their interpretation.

[DarkLink]

If they removed the specific restriction that you can fire multiple guns "in the shooting phase" then go ahead. Otherwise, the assault phase is not the shooting phase, nor is it a "counts as shooting phase", nor does a few random biased tau player's skewed opinions change what the actual rules are.

I'm pretty sure that the rules for Tau at the least still limit them specifically to the shooting phase, unless their codex got updated with 7th and I missed it. Gunslinger might have changed, though.


Ad hominem comments are little better.

It's not actually ad hominem when it's true, it's just rude. Subtle difference.

[daboarder]

If they removed the specific restriction that you can fire multiple guns "in the shooting phase" then go ahead. Otherwise, the assault phase is not the shooting phase, nor is it a "counts as shooting phase", nor does a few random biased tau player's skewed opinions change what the actual rules are.

I'm pretty sure that the rules for Tau at the least still limit them specifically to the shooting phase, unless their codex got updated with 7th and I missed it. Gunslinger might have changed, though.



It's not actually ad hominem when it's true, it's just rude. Subtle difference.

Nope, Sliingers, Monstrous, tau all are limited to the shooting phase, pretty specific really

[DarkLink]

Then I stand by my previous statements.

[Katharon]

Nope he is not shooting the TFC on overwatch but he is wanting to fire the gunners equipped weapons, BOTH the TL plasma cutter (s7 AP2) and then also wanting to do the wall of death with the flamer (D3 S4 AP5 auto hits), arguing that this is allowed because the servo harness allows him to shoot both!

Ah. The structure of your sentence made it seem as if they were attempting to fire the TFC on overwatch -- irregardless of the harness issue.

As for the harness, I'd say that if it allows you to fire two weapons in the Shooting Phase, then it should allow you to fire two weapons in the Overwatch sub-phase.

[marful]

Nope, not at all; actually it's a whole different thing; shooting is a 'planned' attack which is why he can shoot both weapons, overwatch can be more thought of as going something like: "Oh cr4p, he's charging me...." Bang! With whatever weapon comes to hand. You're not aiming or getting ready for it, it just happens on the spur of a split second unlike shooting.
Please quote in the rule book this term "Planned Attack"?

[John Bower]

Don't be pedantic; you know full well what I meant. Shooting is assumed to be taking aim and firing where Overwatch isn't. Anyway it's been resolved it no longer specifies 'shooting phase' but 'a phase'.

[Anggul]

Don't be pedantic; you know full well what I meant. Shooting is assumed to be taking aim and firing where Overwatch isn't. Anyway it's been resolved it no longer specifies 'shooting phase' but 'a phase'.

Indeed. In 6th edition it was two weapons due to the specification of 'shooting phase' in the general firing of weapons rules, but now that the specification has been removed and left as 'phase' it's one weapon only.

[John Bower]

Indeed. In 6th edition it was two weapons due to the specification of 'shooting phase' in the general firing of weapons rules, but now that the specification has been removed and left as 'phase' it's one weapon only.

Actually due to the wording it's 2 :)

If you read the post above quoting it then it does say 2 weapons per phase. Or an extra weapon each phase or whatever I didn't read it again just to point that out LOL

[daboarder]

Actually due to the wording it's 2 :)

If you read the post above quoting it then it does say 2 weapons per phase. Or an extra weapon each phase or whatever I didn't read it again just to point that out LOL

what? no it doesnt it states normally 1 weapon per phase (unless exempt)

All the exceptions so far only exempt models from the shooting phase restriction not the assualt phase restriction

[badbuzz]

The overwatch rules say an overwatch attack is "resolved like a normal shooting attack...and uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves and so on".

Looks pretty clear to me, normal shooting attack, uses all the normal rules, so if you fire two weapons in a normal shooting attack you can fire them both in overwatch.

[daboarder]

Why does everyone ignore the giant bold ALBIET IN THE ASSAULT PHASE section of the rules?


I mean you've deliberately removed that from your quote....so you know how damaging to your point it is

[Gleipnir]

Dark and Daboarder are correct on this one, rule as written wise.

The issue isn't that overwatch is not treated as a normal shooting attack, so much as the fact that Gunslinger, Servo Harness rules, Monstrous Creature rules and Tau Battlesuit rules all specifically state that the extra attacks that are permitted are a part of the Shooting Phase, not as a part of a shooting attack, had all of those rules said shooting attacks, with no mention whatsoever of shooting phase, that would be a different story, since at that point the bonus attacks are tied to any shooting attack as normal.

[John Bower]

That's right; it's down to wording;

If it says 'allows an extra weapon to be fired per phase' then you get 2 (pretty much like an MC would.
If it says 'allows you to fire x weapons in the shooting phase' then you only get 1 overwatch shot. But can fire that many in the shooting phase.

[stonehorse]

Page 31 last paragraph of the main rulebook says:
Typically, a model can only fire a single shooting weapon in the same phase, although some models, such as vehicles or monstrous creatures, can shoot two or more. Once a Model has fired its maximum number of weapons, it cannot fire again that phase.

What is interesting is that here it doesn't say shooting phase, but rather same phase. This is setting precedent for who can shoot, and how many weapons they can each fire in the same phase.

Page 45 third paragraph.
An Overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack (albeit one resolved in the enemy's Assault Phase) and uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover and so on. Unlike a normal shooting attack, Overwatch cannot cause Morale checks or Pinning tests. Any shots fired as Overwatch can only be fired as Snap Shots (pg32). Therefore, weapons and models that cannot fire Snap Shots cannot fire Overwatch.

So it is a normal shooting attack, just one that happens to be in the opponents assault phase. Note that we have already established by the rules that Monstrous Creatures can fire more than one weapon in each phase. This is what is normal for them, and later on the rules even say word for word that firing two weapons is the norm for them.

Page 68 First paragraph.
Flying Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures that have a number of additional rules.

So Flying Monstrous Creatures are Monstrous Creatures, with a few extra rules.

Page 68 third paragraph.
In addition to the special rules that all Monstrous Creatures have, Flying Monstrous Creatures have the Jink and Vector Strike special rule.

So they have all the special rules as they are Monstrous Creatures.

Page 69 third paragraph.
Flying Monstrous Creatures are quick-witted predators, able to track their targets even when moving at high speeds. They can, therefore fire upto two of their weapons normally, even if Swooping (provided that they don't run). Flying Monstrous Creatures can shoot all around, just like other non-vehicle models.

Here it says that Flying Monstrous Creatures, which are Monstrous Creatures can fire upto two weapons normally, note it doesn't say phase or or even mention phase in the paragraph. When they fire their norm is to fire upto two weapons.

From all of this it is quite clear that the intention of the rules for Monstrous Creatures is to be able to fire both their weapons in Overwatch.

The way GW have written that one line is badly written, but this is GW. They aren't the best at writing clear rules, so it is always best to read around a rule, see what else the book has to say before making a rash call. Making a ruling based upon one sentence is ill advised, especially as when shown above there are several clear contradictions to the ruling people are trying to argue for. It is always best to look at the context of what a rule is saying, rather than a breakdown of word by word.

[DarkLink]

Typically, a model can only fire a single shooting weapon in the same phase, although some models, such as vehicles or monstrous creatures, can shoot two or more. Once a Model has fired its maximum number of weapons, it cannot fire again that phase.

What is interesting is that here it doesn't say shooting phase, but rather same phase. This is setting precedent for who can shoot, and how many weapons they can each fire in the same phase.

Keep in mind, though, that while it doesn't say "shooting phase" what it is saying is that "some models have a special rule that allows them to shoot multiple weapons".

So if the MC entry (and related entries) specify that they "may fire two weapons normally", then they have a special rule that always applies. If they "may fire two weapons in the shooting phase", then they have a special rule that only applies in the shooting phase.

If they changed the MC rule to "normally", but some things like the Tau wargear still state "in the shooting phase", then this is on a case by case basis. MCs can fire two weapon on overwatch, but Tau battlesuits cannot, Riptide excluded.

[stonehorse]

Keep in mind, though, that while it doesn't say "shooting phase" what it is saying is that "some models have a special rule that allows them to shoot multiple weapons".

So if the MC entry (and related entries) specify that they "may fire two weapons normally", then they have a special rule that always applies. If they "may fire two weapons in the shooting phase", then they have a special rule that only applies in the shooting phase.

If they changed the MC rule to "normally", but some things like the Tau wargear still state "in the shooting phase", then this is on a case by case basis. MCs can fire two weapon on overwatch, but Tau battlesuits cannot, Riptide excluded.

The Flying Monstrous Creature rules don't say shooting phase when it mentions shooting, which from what I have read of your argument would make it fine to fire both in Overwatch.

So if say a Hive Tyrant with 2 sets of Twin-Linked Brain Leach Devourers and wings was charged, are you saying that it could fire both of them, where as the same model but with out wings couldn't?

Page 31, doesn't say anything about special rule. It just says that 'Typically, a model can only fire a single shooting weapon in the same phase, although some models, such as vehicles or monstrous creatures, can shoot two or more. Once a Model has fired its maximum number of weapons, it cannot fire again that phase.'

There is no mention of special rule, in fact the words special, and rule are not mentioned in this paragraph.

[daboarder]

And the specific rule which allows two jn the MC rules states only jn thw shooting phase

Advanved > basic

[DarkLink]

I haven't actually looked up any of the 7th ed rules for this, other than what's been posted.

[jenkatron]

Note that we have already established by the rules that Monstrous Creatures can fire more than one weapon in each phase. This is what is normal for them, and later on the rules even say word for word that firing two weapons is the norm for them.


I'm pretty satisfied at this point that all overwatch is one gun only. Thanks to everyone for the hearty debate!

Whilst I appreciate the length of yours stonehorse (and others') analyses, you are all stating / suggesting that it's 'NORMAL' for MC/Gunslinger etc to fire more than one weapon.. Like it's just standard that they can always do that. As overwatch is resolved as 'NORMAL' they are allowed to fire 1+. Makes sense unless you go read the specific entries under MC / Gunslinger / TFC Gunner ...

That logic is explicitly overruled if you read the specific 7th ed and codex entries for all those, where it is written in unambiguous wording that they can fire the additional weapon in the SHOOTING PHASE. Overwatch rule as you quote correctly, unambiguously states that is is a SHOOTING ATTACK IN THE ASSAULT PHASE.

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I also have a brief retort to your FMC argument, that a FMC specifically says he shoots two weapons as normal.

That entry is for SWOOPING monstrous creatures. A swooping MC cannot be assaulted so overwatch is never a consideration.

If he lands he is no longer a FMC, he works exactly as a normal MC and has none of the other rules associated with flying, why would he retain that one?!

[Charon]

If he lands he is no longer a FMC, he works exactly as a normal MC and has none of the other rules associated with flying, why would he retain that one?!

He is still a FMC, this does not change.
If he would become a MC he could not fly again once he landed as a MC cannot fly.
Also he retains his jink rule while landed.

[stonehorse]

I'm pretty satisfied at this point that all overwatch is one gun only. Thanks to everyone for the hearty debate!

Whilst I appreciate the length of yours stonehorse (and others') analyses, you are all stating / suggesting that it's 'NORMAL' for MC/Gunslinger etc to fire more than one weapon.. Like it's just standard that they can always do that. As overwatch is resolved as 'NORMAL' they are allowed to fire 1+. Makes sense unless you go read the specific entries under MC / Gunslinger / TFC Gunner ...

That logic is explicitly overruled if you read the specific 7th ed and codex entries for all those, where it is written in unambiguous wording that they can fire the additional weapon in the SHOOTING PHASE. Overwatch rule as you quote correctly, unambiguously states that is is a SHOOTING ATTACK IN THE ASSAULT PHASE.

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I also have a brief retort to your FMC argument, that a FMC specifically says he shoots two weapons as normal.

That entry is for SWOOPING monstrous creatures. A swooping MC cannot be assaulted so overwatch is never a consideration.

If he lands he is no longer a FMC, he works exactly as a normal MC and has none of the other rules associated with flying, why would he retain that one?!

We have to remember that GW rules are not written by a single person, but rather a collective. This can result in rules written in a style that is unique to the writer at time, their choice of words, their choice of sentence structure. This will undoubtedly vary from one writer to the next. Also many times GW have shown that when writing rules they are sometimes forgetful of the nuances of their own rules.

Case in point Lizardmen Army Book Tiktaq'to, a special character on a Flying creature who has a unique magic item that states it works on the unit of Terradons he joins, also he can give them scout. Apart from the main rule book says that units of flyers can not be joined by characters... no where in Tiktaq'to entry is there a rule to say otherwise.

GW aren't brilliant at rules writing for these reasons, too many people writing the rules, which creates errors from either a lack of communication when making rules, and the way that each person approaching writing the rules will have their own way of forming sentences, which can and sometimes do clash with what other writers have written. And again, when writing rules they due to be human are prone to forget the little nuances and caveats here and there, after all their rule books do tend to be hefty books.

This is why it is always best to approach GW rules with an open mindset, and look at what the intention is... until the FAQ comes out.

As for poor old Tiktaq'to, he's still waiting to join his fellow Terradon riders, poor bugger.

[DarkLink]

A good point, which, given the consistency with which GW uses "may fire two weapons in the shooting phase", only backs up the one gun on overwatch side of things. Almost every single instance, if not all instances, of a unit being able to fire multiple weapons is quite explicitly limited to the shooting phase. One random side note for a single particular unit that may or may not possibly contradict this is the one most likely to be the odd man out.

[stonehorse]

A good point, which, given the consistency with which GW uses "may fire two weapons in the shooting phase", only backs up the one gun on overwatch side of things. Almost every single instance, if not all instances, of a unit being able to fire multiple weapons is quite explicitly limited to the shooting phase. One random side note for a single particular unit that may or may not possibly contradict this is the one most likely to be the odd man out.

There is only one such instance where it says such, as I have shown previously there are more cases of it saying each phase than there are of it saying shooting phase. page 67 seventh paragraph. Monstrous Creatures can fire up to two of their weapons each shooting phase - they must, of course, fire both at the same target. They may never Go to Ground, voluntary or otherwise

Again using the above Hive Tyrant scenario I gave above. It uses both the Monstrous Creature rules (page 67 seventh paragraph. Monstrous Creatures can fire up to two of their weapons each shooting phase - they must, of course, fire both at the same target. They may never Go to Ground, voluntary or otherwise) , and also the rules for Flying Monstrous Creatures(Page 68 third paragraph.In addition to the special rules that all Monstrous Creatures have, Flying Monstrous Creatures have the Jink and Vector Strike special rule.).

Now if I am to use both, they both contradict each other, and this create an issue. One says shooting phase (page 67 seventh paragraph. Monstrous Creatures can fire up to two of their weapons each shooting phase - they must, of course, fire both at the same target. They may never Go to Ground, voluntary or otherwise), and is the only such time this is mention in the book, while the other says normally. (Page 69 third paragraph, Flying Monstrous Creatures are quick-witted predators, able to track their targets even when moving at high speeds. They can, therefore fire upto two of their weapons normally, even if Swooping (provided that they don't run). Flying Monstrous Creatures can shoot all around, just like other non-vehicle models.)

So this creates a scenario where they are both right, yet both wrong, as I have to apply both, yet can't. So creates a stale mate, however there is another place that mentions firing more than one weapon and it is as such. Page 31 last paragraph, Typically, a model can only fire a single shooting weapon in the same phase, although some models, such as vehicles or monstrous creatures, can shoot two or more. Once a Model has fired its maximum number of weapons, it cannot fire again that phase. This resolves the stalemate, as it doesn't mention shooting phase, but rather phase. And this doesn't mention anything about advanced rule verses basic rule, or special rule.

One more thing, and this is really pedantic of me, page 67 and Page 69 both use 'up to', however one spells it as up to, and the other as upto. You will see in all my above quotes I have quoted it as written from the book, to show this error (as I type this I am looking at a few annoying red underlines to show a spelling mistake), these sentences that contradict each other about the shooting, and use a different sentence structure, thus add more weight to the rules being written badly and/or by several writers who where not writing together and as such where not made aware of any little nuances created from their colleagues choice of sentence structure and words.

[SnakeChisler]

The general sense of the overwatch rule is 1 weapon, RAW on a case by case basis you can twist it to mean multiple weapons if you wish by dissecting various parts of the BRB

In the case of Tau for example the battlesuits have a piece of wargear that allows 2 weapons to be used, the wargear doesn't state that it is usable in overwatch yet in the same book they do have a piece of wargear that specifically states buffs BS in overwatch. There's other stuff in there that could be interpreted either way but certain pieces state that yes it does and a couple say categorically no it doesn't.

There are some things tho which boost your shots and these effects can still be in play when your firing overwatch twin linked with Psykers (Prescience), Cadre Fireblade extra shot (Tau), Banner of Devastation (Dark Angels)

As has been pointed out the rules are written by multiple people and when playing I'd go with the intention (1 weapon per model) rather than looking at RAW in minute detail to see if they missed something in the wording as it saves a lot of hassle and whoever is claiming the extra weapon and causing holdups in the game gets to look a bit of a (insert profanity here).

[John Bower]

There is only one such instance where it says such, as I have shown previously there are more cases of it saying each phase than there are of it saying shooting phase. page 67 seventh paragraph. Monstrous Creatures can fire up to two of their weapons each shooting phase - they must, of course, fire both at the same target. They may never Go to Ground, voluntary or otherwise

Again using the above Hive Tyrant scenario I gave above. It uses both the Monstrous Creature rules (page 67 seventh paragraph. Monstrous Creatures can fire up to two of their weapons each shooting phase - they must, of course, fire both at the same target. They may never Go to Ground, voluntary or otherwise) , and also the rules for Flying Monstrous Creatures(Page 68 third paragraph.In addition to the special rules that all Monstrous Creatures have, Flying Monstrous Creatures have the Jink and Vector Strike special rule.).

Now if I am to use both, they both contradict each other, and this create an issue. One says shooting phase (page 67 seventh paragraph. Monstrous Creatures can fire up to two of their weapons each shooting phase - they must, of course, fire both at the same target. They may never Go to Ground, voluntary or otherwise), and is the only such time this is mention in the book, while the other says normally. (Page 69 third paragraph, Flying Monstrous Creatures are quick-witted predators, able to track their targets even when moving at high speeds. They can, therefore fire upto two of their weapons normally, even if Swooping (provided that they don't run). Flying Monstrous Creatures can shoot all around, just like other non-vehicle models.)

So this creates a scenario where they are both right, yet both wrong, as I have to apply both, yet can't. So creates a stale mate, however there is another place that mentions firing more than one weapon and it is as such. Page 31 last paragraph, Typically, a model can only fire a single shooting weapon in the same phase, although some models, such as vehicles or monstrous creatures, can shoot two or more. Once a Model has fired its maximum number of weapons, it cannot fire again that phase. This resolves the stalemate, as it doesn't mention shooting phase, but rather phase. And this doesn't mention anything about advanced rule verses basic rule, or special rule.

One more thing, and this is really pedantic of me, page 67 and Page 69 both use 'up to', however one spells it as up to, and the other as upto. You will see in all my above quotes I have quoted it as written from the book, to show this error (as I type this I am looking at a few annoying red underlines to show a spelling mistake), these sentences that contradict each other about the shooting, and use a different sentence structure, thus add more weight to the rules being written badly and/or by several writers who where not writing together and as such where not made aware of any little nuances created from their colleagues choice of sentence structure and words.

The reason for an FMC firing 'normally' is that something flying that speed would normally only fire it's 2nd weapon as 'snap fire'. It's more to differentiate that than anything else. I would conclude that yes while he may fire 2 weapons normally that's not usually going to be an overwatch issue for an FMC since if he's swooping he's not going to be charged anyway. I still go with what I said, if your rule says 2 weapons or 1 extra weapon in a phase without specifically mentioning the shooting phase then it's however many on overwatch he's allowed. But if the wargear etc. says 'shooting' phase then it's 1 pure and simple. Since an MC can fire 2 but it does say in the shooting phase he gets 1 off on overwatch; since FMC's follow the same rules they too only get 1 shot off.

[Hydromancer]

The reason for an FMC firing 'normally' is that something flying that speed would normally only fire it's 2nd weapon as 'snap fire'. It's more to differentiate that than anything else. I would conclude that yes while he may fire 2 weapons normally that's not usually going to be an overwatch issue for an FMC since if he's swooping he's not going to be charged anyway. I still go with what I said, if your rule says 2 weapons or 1 extra weapon in a phase without specifically mentioning the shooting phase then it's however many on overwatch he's allowed. But if the wargear etc. says 'shooting' phase then it's 1 pure and simple. Since an MC can fire 2 but it does say in the shooting phase he gets 1 off on overwatch; since FMC's follow the same rules they too only get 1 shot off.

I wanted to chime in and say the only time "May only fire one weapon" Is ever mentioned is on page 41 in the BRB, under the rules 'More than one weapon'.

[quote]MORE THAN ONE WEAPON
Unless otherwise stated, if a model has more than one shooting weapon, he must choose which one to shoot - he cannot fire both in the same Shooting phase."

There is no 1 weapon restriction in any phase other than the shooting phase if you choose to play overwatch as a shooting attack without shooting phase perks and restrictions.

[John Bower]

I wanted to chime in and say the only time "May only fire one weapon" Is ever mentioned is on page 41 in the BRB, under the rules 'More than one weapon'.

[quote]MORE THAN ONE WEAPON
Unless otherwise stated, if a model has more than one shooting weapon, he must choose which one to shoot - he cannot fire both in the same Shooting phase."

There is no 1 weapon restriction in any phase other than the shooting phase if you choose to play overwatch as a shooting attack without shooting phase perks and restrictions.

I suggest you read Stonhouse's post, he actually quotes the rule correctly. Typically a model may only fire a single weapon in any phase - Mine isn't an exact quote but there's no need. Stonehouse already verbatim quoted it.