End Times; Nagash - Spoilerific discussion.

[Mr Mystery]

How do?

So starting to plough through my books now, and my word this is something special.

For my money, these should do for Warhammer what Horus Heresy did for 40k. Production values are right up there, and the book of background is as thick as the Warhammer Rulebook itself*

And yet there is so much win in this book, it's going to be hard to chit chat about it without revealing spoilers. After all, this is entirely new background! As such, sod spoiler tags. You have one warning, and one warning alone (well, two including the title!)....

THIS THREAD CONTAINS SPOILERS. CONTINUE READING FOREWARNED, AND AT YOUR OWN PERIL.....

First up, a quick round up of what's going on....

Naggaroth and Ulthuan both besieged by Chaos. It's all going horribly wrong for both, and indeed Ulthuan seems to be on the brink of another, non-Dark Elf related civil war. Finubar has shut himself away in a tower, for reasons unclear. Imrik seems to be making a play for the Phoenix throne, whereas the Phoenix Guard have bent their knee to Tyrion. Imrik took umbrage at this, and has flounced off back to Caledor to look after his own peoples, seemingly leaving the rest of Ulthuan to rot.

Naggaroth? Malekith is reet pissed off, and it would seem Darkblade is planning rebellion......

Bretonnia? Recent civil war, with Louis' ******* son going Vamp, but appears to have now been defeated - Kemmler now revealed to be an agent of Chaos, rather than Nagash as many expected....

Right, that's enough for now. Off to read even moar.

*May be very slight exaggeration. I don't have my Warhammer Rulebook to hand. And it's around 500 miles away.

[Morgrim]

I'm very interested in seeing what is happening with this. I play Lizardmen and there hasn't been much of a peep about what they're up to, so I guess I have to wait until next year. Although I have seen an amusing comment thread wondering if Nagash could take control of Lord Kroak due to the whole mummification thing.

(My money is on no, but if he kept his bones to himself and kept out of Lustria then the slaan would probably be fine with joining in the general chaos-smiting which probably puts them on the same 'side'.)

[Mr Mystery]

I'm very interested in seeing what is happening with this. I play Lizardmen and there hasn't been much of a peep about what they're up to, so I guess I have to wait until next year. Although I have seen an amusing comment thread wondering if Nagash could take control of Lord Kroak due to the whole mummification thing.

(My money is on no, but if he kept his bones to himself and kept out of Lustria then the slaan would probably be fine with joining in the general chaos-smiting which probably puts them on the same 'side'.)

My money is on yes....those Morghasts were once divine servants of Ptra, the Nehekharan Sungod.....Nagash chinned the lot of them, and then raised them up as mockeries of their former selves....

[eldargal]

Slann are kind of different though, being the highest creations of the Old Ones and all. Interesting to see. More about Countess of Nuln!:p

[Mr Mystery]

Countess of Nuln kicked off her heels, and then smashed Arkhan's face in, ramming his skull up his undead chuff*




*May have made that bit up.

[eldargal]

I don't know, seems legit...

[Mr Mystery]

Tsarina Katarina confirmed to still be kicking arse, even though Kislev is pretty much gone.

Reason? To give The Empire enough time to get it's forces deployed. Which is nice of her.

Neither Mannfred nor Neferata are especially pleased about serving Nagash. Oh, and Mannfred now has the Fellblade - unclear if anyone else knows this. Note to Skaven - deceased Dragons should ideally not be incorporated into your fortress walls.....

[Katharon]

As long as I still have my winged lancer models, I shall use them by thunder! Long live Kislev! Long live the Tsarina!

[Mr Mystery]

Athel Loren now.....

Aerial is dying. The Oak of Ages is dying. Orion has gone on a rampage, ruled by rage over reason. Alarielle of the Asur has arrived, and made a pact with consequences unknown with Durthu to assist in rescuing her daughter from the clutches of Mannfred......

[Mr Mystery]

Bretonnia now....

Leoncouer appears dead, slain by the hand of his traitorous illegitimate son, Mallobuade. Green Knight has revealed himself to be none other than Gilles Le Breton, and has ascended the throne once more.... However, warpstone meteorites have peppered the land, leading to Beastman warherds roaming the land, the City of Bordeleaux vanishing without a trace, a great keep of Bone and Brass standing in it's place. Gilles Le Breton has now declared a new Errantry War, of size to eclipse all that came before....

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Kingdoms of the Dwarfs.....

Some are calling for the Holds to be sealed, noting a lessening in attacks from Skaven and Goblin kind. Thorek Ironbrow believes he has discerned the location of the fabled portal stone of Valaya, the rune covered post and lintel through which the Ancestor Goddess first stepped out of the living mountain. Long trusted Lore suggested the finding of such an artefact, and others like it would mark the onset of a new Golden Age, a time when the gods would once more walk amongst their people....

[el_tigre]

Cannot wait to get this book. Any word on the Lizardmen yet? What about Ogres and Chaos Dwarves?

[Theik]

Cannot wait to get this book. Any word on the Lizardmen yet? What about Ogres and Chaos Dwarves?

Lizardmen are overrun by skaven and demons and start a mass exodus.
Ogre Kingdoms fall apart, Greasus is unable to keep the more distant tribes from leaving his kingdom. End result, many ogres go north to join Chaos or go south to work as mercenaries.

[Mr.Pickelz]

Britannic Civil War sounds really interesting. If GW could do the new book with characters on both sides of the civil "dispute", that book would be really intriguing.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Civil War? You're thinking too small. The civil war is over; Mallobaude's undead horde lost. But Bretonnia is in ruin, and only its knights stand a chance of rescuing it from darkness. Whole cities and castles are gone, some replaced with daemonic fortresses. La Maisontaal abbey has been levelled as Arkhan sought Alakanash, the Staff of Nagash.

Mystery's going through the start of the book, which is a series of vignettes detailing the current state of play for all the factions as the end times begin. The main narrative so far has taken us up to 2525, I think, and covers the following, roughly:

Mannfred and Arkhan's assembly of the remaining artefacts of Nagash;

The ritual to resurrect Nagash, and the doomed efforts of High Elves, Wood Elves, Dwarfs and the Empire to stop it (spoiler, they don't);

Neferata's march south into the lands of the dwarfs, seeking an ancient artefact to aid with Nagash's empowerment;

The first battles at the Empire's northern border and the betrayal of Balthasar Gelt;

Finally, Nagash's assault on Nehekhara.

Who's dead? God, where do you start? It seems like if you don't have a current model, your chances of survival are low. Eltharion is dead. Zacharias the Everliving is dead. Kemmler is dead. Louen Leoncouer is missing. Settra is utterly defeated (but can't die...). Nekaph is dead. Crom the Conqueror gets his face kicked in by Valten. The Anvil of Doom is destroyed. There's others I'm missing.

But who is back? Only some awesome ancient characters! Do you remember Dieter Helsnicht? He's in the story. The Nameless is a reference to some truly ancient Warhammer fiction (I worked it out, but won't spoil it, it's fun). Walach Harkon and the Pirate King of the Vampire Coast are dead and loving it.

Finally, so much intrigue. There are a bunch of real "mic drop" moments. Teclis is piling scheme upon scheme. Aenarion's curse has manifested in an unexpected manner. Malekith has been off on a sudden holiday. Chaos is goading people to action here and there, making offers and whispers in the ears of some truly unexpected characters. Wizards are feeling the pull of forbidden powers - and not just those of chaos. Some people's motivations aren't what you expect.

But the main thing, the single best thing, is Arkhan the Black, sarcastic super-lich badass of my heart.

It's a beautiful book, packed with illustrations, driven by a deep, rich, coherent (mostly) narrative which is beyond the usual "but then x beat up y using super unit z". It's the best Warhammer book. I think it's the best GW book. Pick it up. Luxuriate in it. Wait impatiently for the next one.

If anyone has questions they want answered on the narrative, I can attempt answers.

[eldargal]

Anything about Morathi and Hellebron?

Also the Countess Leibwitz of Nuln.:p

[Theik]

Anything about Morathi and Hellebron?

Also the Countess Leibwitz of Nuln.:p

To where I've gotten, there's a reference of Malekith sending for his mother, and one of his guard thinks it would have been funny if he'd had sent hellebron to do it, but in the end Darkblade gets sent.

[eldargal]

I wish I had my copy. ><

[Mr Mystery]

This is why I always order direct from GW. FLGS may sometimes ship earlier, but I've never had a late book off GW.

Plus, local store is local, and it's only right to pay where you play :)

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And now for a quick check....what page is everyone up to?

101 for me, on account I was out last night for parent's Ruby Wedding anniversary.... a pox upon them :p

[Katharon]

the betrayal of Balthasar Gelt;

Smurfs, would you mind elaborating on this point?

[Mr Mystery]

Big spoiler?? Like, seriously do not read further on this post sized spoiler if you want some secrets spoiler?














Gelt finds out that a shapeshifter (Changeling) is attempting to assassinate Emperor Karl Franz. Gelt 'works out' that the Shapeshifter is clearly Valten.

And promptly raises some Undead to help him protect the Emperor.....

Folks, remember, this is Spoilerific!

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Gelt becomes a necromancer of sorts, throwing in his lot with Vlad von Carstein. It's hinted that he's been getting his best ideas from Neferata's coven for a while. The head of the Amber College is now the Supreme Patriarch.

The College of Death crumbled into ash on Nagash's ascension.

We don't know what's up with Morathi exactly, other than that she's been suspiciously reclusive. The Dark Elves have some of the least coverage in this book; presumably they will be very prominent soon, however.

On female characters: there's a lot of them, and some of them get to be competent, heroic badasses, even if life doesn't go well for them. Khalida is awesome. Eldyra is very, very capable. Neferata's coven and The Queen herself are by turns terrifying and sneaky. Katarin is being unspeakably brave beyond the border, even if we don't see it. Meanwhile, the leader of the chaos assault on Naggaroth was Valkia; Malekith's court and Ulthuan's armies are both explicitly described as lords and ladies / men and women. It's about as good a representation in quality and certainly quantity as GW have ever done (outside of maybe Sisters). There's still problems. A few too many damsels needing rescuing (or sacrificed), but it's headed in the right direction.

THe main thing, to my mind, is that there's a lot of strong characterisation. Neferata isn't a great battlefield leader, but she is a sneaky, self-serving master manipulator. She knows things even Arkhan doesn't. Mannfred is impulsive, selfish, and ultimately not as powerful as he thought he was. Vlad is aristocratic and contemptuous. Krell is a capable and driven military leader. And so on. It's all about characters, and that's why it's so good.

[eldargal]

Yay!

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Also, the Countess of Nuln isn't even mentioned to my recall, I have no idea where people got that from.

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Also, "Ariel and Alarielle" is a difficult thing to say quickly.

[eldargal]

No mention beats being ded.

Random speculation: Given that characters without models are being splatted but we are seeing a new wave of models for important evil characters (Nagash + Neferata, and some other guys idk) I wonder if we will see models for some of the characters that are being built up by this series that don't have models? Elydra springs to mind, and the Tsarina of course and I guess there will be some male characters too.

[Mr Mystery]

Also, the Countess of Nuln isn't even mentioned to my recall, I have no idea where people got that from.



It's briefly mentioned in the 'setup' bit for The Empire. Nuln suffered horrendous riots in the lead up, with mobs of fanatics (doesn't say to which God(s) though) rampaging about, and the Countess being evacuated safely.

As for the Damsels in Distress - There is indeed some here and there, but given the general setting of fantasy, and the extreme amount of ladies of badassery, I think that can be overlooked for the most part. Others may disagree of course!

- - - Updated - - -


No mention beats being ded.

Random speculation: Given that characters without models are being splatted but we are seeing a new wave of models for important evil characters (Nagash + Neferata, and some other guys idk) I wonder if we will see models for some of the characters that are being built up by this series that don't have models? Elydra springs to mind, and the Tsarina of course and I guess there will be some male characters too.

It does seem possible.

I reckon we've not heard much about the Tsarina, as this is merely Volume One of The End Times, and her involvement would likely be best covered in the Chaos one.

I really, really hope we get some nice spangly Good Guy models out of this. Undead have done very well after all!

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I think that we're looking at new models for some of the very biggest characters in their Ultimate Forms. So probably not Eldyra - but she's there if you want to convert, which is easier than ever with the likes of the Sisters if Avelorn bits - but I suspect that maybe some Greater Daemons, possibly Archaon, and... Well, I have a hunch that Malekith will get a new model.

Or Tyrion, or Teclis. Or all three. Which one will have the Sword of Khaine, though...?

Oh, and I probably should have mentioned, don't know why not: Volkmar the Grim is pretty dead. Pretty, pretty dead. As in, the ancient Necromancer Nagash uses his body as a vessel for his mortal manifestation dead. Bye Volkmar! Again!

[eldargal]

Sigmar's Blood got around it by having a bunch of chaps kidnapped also. I'd kill to have the Countess of Nuln rally the Empire forces, women never get to do that.><

hey might have Elydra replace Eltharion (who I never liked, glad he is ded) in the next High Elf book or something. Actually this End Times thing could be a good way of pruning off some of the deadweight SCs tha have been around for ages and replacing them with some more women without making all the idiot dudebros think GW has been taken over by feminists (like EA). #tangent.

[Mr Mystery]

So so loving this.

Not knowing what is going to happen (barring the odd spoiler from this very thread, which we all went into eyes open!) is quite thrilling. Normally, especially with the books, you know the protagonist is ultimately going to win.

But this time, it's all spangle new and hard to tell!

[Cap'nSmurfs]

The war-leader of Malekith's now-postoned invasion of Ulthuan is a woman!

- - - Updated - - -

Oh! And while Isabella isn't back (yet!), it is Vlad's motivation for joining Nagash. He can't bear to live without her, and only Nagash has the power to fix it.

[eldargal]

The war-leader of Malekith's now-postoned invasion of Ulthuan is a woman!

- - - Updated - - -

Oh! And while Isabella isn't back (yet!), it is Vlad's motivation for joining Nagash. He can't bear to live without her, and only Nagash has the power to fix it.
Yay, go GW.

Ha, called it. Not that it was hard to predict. Less miffed than I would have been without talk of all the other female badassery.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

In terms if casualties: what's interesting is that yes, it's obviously a clearout of old characters who don't have models, but it's also more than that. As Volkmar (and perhaps others...) show, having a recent model isn't actually a protection against death. As Mystery says, there's a good mix of things you see coming, and things you absolutely don't. Can't wait for book two. Want. Now.

[eldargal]

Isthere much new art?

[Mr Mystery]

Honestly? Hard to tell.....

There certainly seems to be, but also a 'thank you' to Mythic at the beginning of the book, so some I regard as being new may be simply recycled form a source I'm not familiar with.

This really is several hundred pages of win!

[Cap'nSmurfs]

My knowledge of Warhammer art isn't encyclopedic, but there's a pleasing amount of stuff that is new to me, as well as old classics. All the Mortarchs and Nagash have at least one big character portrait illustration, there are big impressive pieces showing the resurrection ritual, and of course the lovely one of Settra and Nagash's confrontation. One of the striking things is that there's art everywhere in the book; it's in the background of pages, it's around the text, it's in big spreads. It's a lovely design.

There could've been more new art, but what's there is great, and the selections from past art are nice.

The art is from a variety of sources, from old army book covers to box art for regiment sets, to character designs from Warhammer Online (yes!)

[eldargal]

Well the ritual is probably new.

Is there an explanation as to why Aliathra is still alive? Usually when yo usacrifice someone to bring back the Big Bad they die. Not complaining.

[Mr Mystery]

Well the ritual is probably new.

Is there an explanation as to why Aliathra is still alive? Usually when yo usacrifice someone to bring back the Big Bad they die. Not complaining.

Well, I'm on page 110, just before the ritual and she's still kicking.

Whether she is part of that ritual, or just the bone wall ritual protecting Sylvania, I don't know yet!

[eldargal]

Boo, she'll probably end up dead then.><

[Mr Mystery]

Morgiana Le Fay just bought the farm.......

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The Princess Eldyra is one hell of a badass though!

[eldargal]

Someone needs to tell her now is not the time to try ones hand at market gardening.;)

Yay! Get her a model GW!

[Mr Mystery]

She's just punched Mannfred, right in the kisser!

[eldargal]

Nice. She better not die.:p

[Mr Mystery]

Mannfred has just plucked her from the battlefield with a bunch of Fellbats.

Down, but I doubt she's out! Punch cracked one of his fangs!

[Cap'nSmurfs]

She's a Vampire now. Of course she is. Come on. Her name's Eldyra.

Mystery was very premature on Aliathra. Don't get people's hopes up. ;)

[eldargal]

Cool, she needs a model! Also tiny retcon 'cos Elf vampires are supposed to be either impossible or incredibly difficult. Maybe she's faking.:p

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Mannfred's opinion was that most elves weren't worth it. She put up such a fight that he took her in. She is, of course, the only one of the heroic rescuers who is still (sort of) alive.

[Mr Mystery]

I dunno....

Lore wise, the lack of non-human Necromancers and Vampires has always been put down to humankind's peculiar place....

Orcs and Goblins do not fear death, nor do Ogres.

Dwarfs - no interest in cheating death

Elves - practically immortal anyway, thus removing much of the impetus for studying Necromancy to that degree. Much the same goes for the Slann and Skinks come to think of it!

[eldargal]

She needs a model, imagine a High Elf with all fancy gear and then big vampiric teeth and stuff? Will buy.

[Mr Mystery]

I could see her taking over a vast swathe of Sylvania.

Consider what Vampirism does for a human's reactions. Now, put that in one with the speed and training of the Asur?

[eldargal]

Shipping her and Neferata.

[Mr Mystery]

Giggedy!

[eldargal]

Shipping Mannfred with Arkhan. Ship Nagash with Settra, he's so tsundere.

Edit: I'm bored, want my copy.



I hope Nagash-senpai notices me this year

YOU ARE SMALL AND ANNOYING SETTRA-CHAN

[Theik]

Boo, she'll probably end up dead then.><

That she does. She bites the dust around the same time as Morgiana le Fay and Volkmar, all three are sacrificed to bring back Nagash. Also....




**********SPOILER**********
She is the reason Nagash isn't all powerful after his resurrection. She's not the daughter of Finubar but of Tyrion, and as such cursed with his legacy. When Nagash ascends and tries to take absolute control over death magic he realizes something is wrong and he can't contain its power. Good thing the queen of elves is such an harlot. =D


Also Teclis was already aware of this and sabotaged all attempts at getting her rescued so Nagash would revive without his full powers, apparently alongside Malekith. He's showing some Tzeentchian levels of dickery and just-as-planned.

[Mr Mystery]

Teclis......you silly sod.

Seems he has entered into a bargain with someone you really, really don't want to go bargaining with, on account she is much better at it than anyone else, living or dead!

Yep. He's treating with Morathi of all people.

[eldargal]

Shipping Teclis and Morathi.

[Mr Mystery]

Seems from the Dark Elf book that Morathi might have a thing for Tyrion. She seems to think he is Aenarion reborn!

[eldargal]

She probably wants the complete set.

[Mr Mystery]

The dirty girl!

Man, this is good this book. What is being put up here is literally the highest of the highlights - this whole thing is immense. So much going on, lots not said as it would take yonks to type it up.

It's also massively well written in my opinion. As has been said earlier, this isn't some 'Magic Item of Ming Top Trumps'. There's a helluva lot going on.

Buy it!

[Brakkart]

Man I am loving the highlights of this and can't wait till the 15th now when I get paid and can get my own copy.

Someone mentioned that Kemmler is dead? What happened to him?

Guessing I need to grab that figure before it vanishes from the GW site then as always loved the figure (and the character), he was brilliant in Zombieslayer.

[Mr Mystery]

Someone mentioned that Kemmler is dead? What happened to him?


In short? Arkhan happened to him!

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Are you sure it's Morathi? I thought Malekith. Could be either, I suppose - unless there's something I've missed!

Also, don't slut-shame the Everqueen. It's Tyrion. I know I would.

[Theik]

Are you sure it's Morathi? I thought Malekith. Could be either, I suppose - unless there's something I've missed!

Also, don't slut-shame the Everqueen. It's Tyrion. I know I would.

I figured it was Malekith as well, considering it seems weird Morathi would refer to Teclis as "cousin".

[Brakkart]

In short? Arkhan happened to him!

Hmm yeah I can imagine that Arkhan would take umbrage at anyone calling themselves the Lichemaster, what with him (and his master) being Liches! Still a shame to see one of the oldest named characters in Warhammer Fantasy die, but then maybe he'll make a return from the grave at some point, seems to be the in vogue thing to do.

[Darren Richardson]

Hmm yeah I can imagine that Arkhan would take umbrage at anyone calling themselves the Lichemaster, what with him (and his master) being Liches! Still a shame to see one of the oldest named characters in Warhammer Fantasy die, but then maybe he'll make a return from the grave at some point, seems to be the in vogue thing to do.

yeah it's a shame if he has bit the dust so to speak, he was around in the very first days when Warhammer was being codified way back in 3rd edition, hell he even had a complete Advanced Hero Quest campiagn to himself not to mention a warhammer scenerio pack and a Citidal Journal!

Man he was popular in the late 80's.

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hey I also just noticed that Abbey Arkhan attacked to retrive Nagash's items, was the same one that featured in those old Lichemaster campaigns for Warhammer way back yonder!

[Cap'nSmurfs]

It's not just that he's calling himself lichemaster (although that is referenced very amusingly). Kemmler's made some... Well, he's made some choices.

And yes, the battle in Nagash is the twelfth battle of La Maisontaal. And, presumably, the last~

[Mr Mystery]

I figured it was Malekith as well, considering it seems weird Morathi would refer to Teclis as "cousin".

Term used was 'nephew', which got me thinking it was Morathi....

[Theik]

Holy plottwist batman!






*****************SPOILERS, DO NOT READ IF YOU DO NOT WANT THE END SPOILED*****************




Settra lives! (If you can really call it that.)
At the end of the book, the gods of chaos reknit his body and tell him his fight isn't over yet.

[Mr Mystery]

Indeed!

Though there is the question whether it was the Chaos Gods. Granted, four voices kind of a give away, but might not be!

[Cap'nSmurfs]

You're right, it is Morathi. Has to be, which explains why she's curiously absent otherwise. Good spot! (plz new model)

And of course Settra's back. He's the Imperishable. It's the Gods of Chaos, of course it is; what his answer to their offer will be, however...

[Mr Mystery]

Man this is heavy going, in a really good way!

Currently just finished off the section about Nerferata and the Stunties. And the Gobbos.

Wow!

[Blackbladder]

Holy plottwist batman!






*****************SPOILERS, DO NOT READ IF YOU DO NOT WANT THE END SPOILED*****************




Settra lives! (If you can really call it that.)
At the end of the book, the gods of chaos reknit his body and tell him his fight isn't over yet.

And suddenly... THOUSAND SON SPACE MARINES!

[Mikeb]

Please someone tell me what's happening with grimgore and the orcs. He can't be doing nothing he's basically the hulk of fantasy lol

[Mr Mystery]

Haven't got that far at the moment. He's certainly heading north to fight the Chaos Lads though!

[Theik]

Please someone tell me what's happening with grimgore and the orcs. He can't be doing nothing he's basically the hulk of fantasy lol

Nothing much in the book, he heads north and that's it. But in the beginning Wurrzag becomes convinced that there is not going to be a Once and Future Git, but rather one hand of Mork and one fist of Gork. It's heavily implied that Grimgor and Snarsnik are these two chosen ones.

[sparti67]

Two halflings throw the ring in a river of lava and save everyone. The end

[White Tiger88]

Wait wait wait Darkblade is going to give Malekith a beating finally? About time.........Now he just needs to get Alith Anar in on it!

[daboarder]

a time when the gods would once more walk amongst their people....

Which gods and which people being the punchline

So whats the deal with valten, he officially back or what?

is this just the new storm of chaos?

EDIT: and do we have any idea if this is just a "what if" type thing, I mean are we to expect these changes to be permanent of completely re-set next edition drop.

I'd be pissed if I had any of the guys who have been chumped

[Katharon]

Any idea what's happening with the Everqueen's daughter, Tyrion, and the High Elves that were being faced down by a large Undead army led by Mannfred?

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Valten is here, and he's better than ever. Storm of Chaos for all intents and purposes, didn't happen. The End Times is Archaon's invasion and the end of all things prophesied by various races. Some of the same characters have reared their heads as in Storm of Chaos, but in a different way. It's better.

We don't know what's becoming of it. Is this a setting reboot? Is this the end? We don't know, yet.

Most of the characters that have been "chumped" don't have a model or rules, and haven't for years. And we din't know yet who will replace them; presumably they're going to keep making character kits, it's just they didn't feel like doing the third version of Louen Leoncouer (whose death is stilll not certain, they didn't find a body) and wanted someone new for a change, you dig?

As for the fight against Mannfred: they lost, offscreen. Aliathra is later sacrificed to resurrect Nagash. Tyrion wanted to try to rescue her again, but was convinced that he needed to lead his people on Ulthuan, which is under daemonic invasion. He agreed and left Aliathra's rescue to Eltharion which, well, see above.

[eldargal]

Storm of Chaos was complicatedby the player campaign and things going pear shaped with it from GWs perspective so it kind of failed as a reshaping of the Warhammer World. With End Times GW has full creative control so they can balance things more and plan it (as evidenced by the hints we have been getting in various books leading up to End Times over the past 2 years or so). I'd be very surprised if this ends up being impermanent but I also doubt the structure of the factions will change overmuch, just their situation in universe.

Also decided I'm a bit miffed about Eldyra because now the ony named female High Elf military leader we had is no longer a High Elf.

[Bewareofthephil]

As a Wood Elf follower of 15+ years I'm really interested in how things are going for them right now, I'm only about to start Chapter 1 of the book though after a few hours reading the prologue stuff.

I knew Drycha the branchwraith was up to no good, but the implications here are that she's working directly for Nagash? I guess that'll be covered more further in the book. Ariel is sealed below the Oak of Ages and the trees are rotten and Beastmen are converging on the forest.

Can't wait to see what else happens here. And Durthu has regained his sanity! :)

[Mr Mystery]

Well, the Dwarfs took a bit of a kicking...

King Kazador? Decapitated by Krell, but not before he appeared to do lasting damage to that Wight....

Thorek? Kraggi and his guards both dead, Anvil of Doom split. Thorek himself, despite being gutted by Neferata may not actually be dead.... He succeeded in opening up an ancient treasure vault, and heard the words of Valaya herself. It's not clear if he actually survived so far (page 189 I'm on!).

[eldargal]

Sounds like the odds of the dwarfs surviving have shortened...

Shipping Thorek and Valaya because why not.

[Mr Mystery]

Whatever it is that Thorek successfully accessed scared Neferata, and big time.... So the Stunties might yet be back, and in greater glory!

[Theik]

Whatever it is that Thorek successfully accessed scared Neferata, and big time.... So the Stunties might yet be back, and in greater glory!
Except not really, cause they found the ancestor goddess Valaya and Nagash ate her.


So whats the deal with valten, he officially back or what?
Nobody seems to know the name Valten, so it suggests Valten's earlier existence was retconned and this is his first true appearance. Same goes for Crom.


Any idea what's happening with the Everqueen's daughter, Tyrion, and the High Elves that were being faced down by a large Undead army led by Mannfred?
Tyrion wasn't there, he is back home. 3 of his friends went instead and they failed. Everqueen's bas-tard (why is this censored, it's a legit word xD) child dies to revive Nagash, one of them gets vamp'd, the rest dies.

[Anggul]

And Durthu has regained his sanity! :)

Whoa wait. Isn't that a massive deal? Didn't he have a ridiculous well of power from all of the dead Treemen which he couldn't actually use because he was insane? He can now tap into that, which makes him one of the most powerful beings in the world.

[Houghten]

Sounds to me like an excuse to convert a Nagash-sized Durthu.

[Katharon]

Any news about our dynamic duo: Gotrek & Felix?

[Mr Mystery]

Gotrek and Felix - Kinslayer out next week!

[Theik]

Any news about our dynamic duo: Gotrek & Felix?

Not in this book.

[eldargal]

Wonder what's happening with Ulrika? Will they even bother mentioning what she is up to.><

[Mr Mystery]

Wonder what's happening with Ulrika? Will they even bother mentioning what she is up to.><

Kinslayer reunites them all!

Ulrika, Max, Snorri too!

[eldargal]

Oh good, they better not kill her off I swear to god.... Wonder if they are really going to wrap up G&F with Kinslayer and sequels the way they hint, along with the End Times stuff? Didn't one of his axes belong to Valaya? Maybe he stabs Nagash with it and it makes him vomit up Valaya (and aliatha because why not) and weakens him tremendously.:rolleyes:

[Theik]

Oh good, they better not kill her off I swear to god.... Wonder if they are really going to wrap up G&F with Kinslayer and sequels the way they hint, along with the End Times stuff? Didn't one of his axes belong to Valaya? Maybe he stabs Nagash with it and it makes him vomit up Valaya (and aliatha because why not) and weakens him tremendously.:rolleyes:

Wouldn't count on it, he already used up all the energy he gained from eating Valaya to conjure up a massive shroud of darkness above the whole of Nekhara.

[eldargal]

Actually come to think of it there have been three female characters with PoV novels written about them in modern GW times (not including Genevieve in other words) that I can think of: Valkia, Neferata and Ulrika. Two of them have models, one does not. Here's hoping that they give Ulrika rules and models in some capacity because at this rate the good guys are going to be rather lacking.

Now I have an imagine of Nagash belching out Valaya-shroud, thanks.

[Anggul]

Actually come to think of it there have been three female characters with PoV novels written about them in modern GW times (not including Genevieve in other words) that I can think of: Valkia, Neferata and Ulrika. Two of them have models, one does not. Here's hoping that they give Ulrika rules and models in some capacity because at this rate the good guys are going to be rather lacking.

Now I have an imagine of Nagash belching out Valaya-shroud, thanks.

I wasn't aware the Dwarven gods were around any more. I know one of them disappeared into one of the chaos gates. How did they find one of them to sacrifice in the first place?

[Theik]

I wasn't aware the Dwarven gods were around any more. I know one of them disappeared into one of the chaos gates. How did they find one of them to sacrifice in the first place?
Neferata found her while fleeing from Nekhara, or at least her sleeping place. She realized she might serve some use later so she used her own magic to strengthen the dwarven runes and then placed a different shrouding spell over it to make it even harder to find, before heading further north to found a base. When Nagash revives, she already knows that his strength is boned because only two of the three sacrifices had divine blood in them, and she hopes to offer the artefacts inside her ancient hiding spot (not knowing it is a goddess) to make Nagash forget about her past transgressions.

The Dwarves are meanwhile also getting pretty darn antsy about the whole end times deal, leading to Thorek taking on some sort of superquest towards the forge of the gods, which he believes he has found some obscure reference to in old runes. He ends up managing to break through Neferata's spell and starts opening the door, just as Krell and Neferata make it back to the cave and ambush the dwarves from two hidden passages.

[Anggul]

So did Neferata not take part in the resurrection of Nagash then? She hated him after all.

[Theik]

So did Neferata not take part in the resurrection of Nagash then? She hated him after all.

No, but she realizes she can't stop it either, so she has no real choice but to offer up some goodies to get on his good side.

[Anggul]

No, but she realizes she can't stop it either, so she has no real choice but to offer up some goodies to get on his good side.

That makes a lot more sense. I was so confused at the notion that she would want to resurrect him. The GW website also says she once fought alongside him and disappointed him, but I'm pretty sure she didn't. Maybe something has changed since I last checked.

[Katharon]

I'd love to see Gotrek seek his doom by going after Nagash! lol

[Theik]

That makes a lot more sense. I was so confused at the notion that she would want to resurrect him. The GW website also says she once fought alongside him and disappointed him, but I'm pretty sure she didn't. Maybe something has changed since I last checked.

She did actually fight alongside him. She was one of his 9 Mortarchs in the old days as well. The vampires all realized Nagash was on the losing side however and bailed on him, leaving him to die.

[eldargal]

Isn't his doom preordained to be some big bloodthirster named Bovril or something? Or am I mis-remembering (more than the name).

So, GW are obviously building in mechanisms that might enable to Nagash to be defeated, what with Aliathra's background and all. So the question is are we going to see End times fixed in stasis like SoC was until it was retconned or the 40k setting is or is this a WoW-Cataclysm style rejig to let them move the story forward with more dynamism than before?

[Theik]

Isn't his doom preordained to be some big bloodthirster named Bovril or something? Or am I mis-remembering (more than the name).

So, GW are obviously building in mechanisms that might enable to Nagash to be defeated, what with Aliathra's background and all. So the question is are we going to see End times fixed in stasis like SoC was until it was retconned or the 40k setting is or is this a WoW-Cataclysm style rejig to let them move the story forward with more dynamism than before?
Ehm... well, it only means his reincarnation isn't perfect. Since that point he has kicked Settra out of Khemri, razed every city in the land of the dead, became the god of their underworld by eating the old god, ate a dwarf god and forced every tomb king to join his army. From what I can tell, his ultimate plan is to eat the gods of chaos.

That said, they're also setting up the Skaven and Chaos for some serious endtime action in the book, so don't be surprised to see those rising soon.

[eldargal]

Yes but you don't include something like that without having a reason, whether it is to hint at the possibility Nagash may be defeated in future while holding the setting in stasis or by having him defeated as you progress the story. They aren't going to wipe out WFB completely.

Ooh I just had a thought, I wonder if the Total War Warhammer title being worked on by Creative Assembly will tie into End times...

[Anggul]

Ehm... well, it only means his reincarnation isn't perfect. Since that point he has kicked Settra out of Khemri, razed every city in the land of the dead, became the god of their underworld by eating the old god, ate a dwarf god and forced every tomb king to join his army. From what I can tell, his ultimate plan is to eat the gods of chaos.

That said, they're also setting up the Skaven and Chaos for some serious endtime action in the book, so don't be surprised to see those rising soon.

This was my thought. Nagash still has Chaos to deal with, not to mention the Elves if they survive the daemons. The presence of a daemonic horde at Ulthuan means the vortex is weakening, which also means the dragons may rise, which would be a pretty big deal too. I'm also interested to see what Durthu does now that he's no longer insane and can presumably tap into that massive well of power he has.

I'm not sure how Nagash could ever come near to the power of the chaos gods. It shall be interesting to see what his plans are. Maybe just close the chaos gates at the poles? It seems strange that the end times aren't so focussed on Archaon. I don't think Archaon would stand much of a chance against Nagash, but who knows what will happen with chaos. I don't think they'll be keen to let their playground turn undead and emotionless.

[eldargal]

Wonder if you could see Chaos attacking Nagash as a threat, it could end up easing pressure on Ulthuan and Naggaroth. Oh and Kislev.

[Theik]

Wonder if you could see Chaos attacking Nagash as a threat, it could end up easing pressure on Ulthuan and Naggaroth. Oh and Kislev.
They already do that. Along the way Nagash's missions keep getting attacked by beastmen, and the whole reason Chaos is trying to get into the empire is because they are trying to carve a path straight to Sylvanas. They are well aware of Nagash's threat, the empire is simply in the way.


It seems strange that the end times aren't so focussed on Archaon. I don't think Archaon would stand much of a chance against Nagash, but who knows what will happen with chaos. I don't think they'll be keen to let their playground turn undead and emotionless.
The main reason Nagash is rising is because he sensed that Chaos is rising. If it had been up to Nagash he would have waited longer, but he felt that Chaos was getting so strong that if he delayed his resurrection any longer, he may very well not get to resurrect at all.

[Wolfshade]

Isn't his doom preordained to be some big bloodthirster named Bovril or something? Or am I mis-remembering (more than the name).

So, GW are obviously building in mechanisms that might enable to Nagash to be defeated, what with Aliathra's background and all. So the question is are we going to see End times fixed in stasis like SoC was until it was retconned or the 40k setting is or is this a WoW-Cataclysm style rejig to let them move the story forward with more dynamism than before?

Borvil, defweated by the mighty unilever...


*ahem*

But, the idea is interesting. There are many that feel that WFB is the smaller sister to 40k so it is in that setting that they are willing to trial things before hitting 40k, (like the multi-part plastic kits, IIRC you had halberdiers/swordsmen/spears in one kit then as that went down well you then got the first 40k multipart kit Khorne Berzerkers) so perhaps this is a case of "can we move the story on right/well" while not eliminating the core audience and perhaps expanding the number of players? Then if that works well see if we can do the same with 40k.

I like it.

[eldargal]

It also seems to be attempting to reduce the amount of cost for armies, bumping up Lords to 50% means a lot less models you have to put on the table if you want. Probably an attempt at getting more people into WFB.

Oh, can anyone share a rough points cost for Neferata? I think exact costs are against the rules (unless published in WD?) so just a rough idea would be nice.

[Theik]

It also seems to be attempting to reduce the amount of cost for armies, bumping up Lords to 50% means a lot less models you have to put on the table if you want. Probably an attempt at getting more people into WFB.

Oh, can anyone share a rough points cost for Neferata? I think exact costs are against the rules (unless published in WD?) so just a rough idea would be nice.
You can use her in a 1300 point game. ;)

[BoW Ben]

Gotrek won't meet his doom in Kinslayer - there is a book coming out after it simply called 'Slayer' which has a cover showing Belakor in the background and Gotrek & Felix in the foreground with a daemon head in hands.

Seems to me like they will go North to fight Throgg and his army of trolls. Defeat Throgg, or survive him - although a few of the favoured party are meant to die in the battle - and then will head North to find Gotrek's true doom somewhere in the wastes against Belakor himself.

Considering heroes without models are being killed off I think we're going to see either Felix die and Gotrek wander off with no-one to record his doom, or Gotrek die followed shortly after by Felix.

[Mr Mystery]

Blimey....just starting Chapter Five of End Times.

So...much...happening!

Can't wait for the next volume now!

[Chronowraith]

It also seems to be attempting to reduce the amount of cost for armies, bumping up Lords to 50% means a lot less models you have to put on the table if you want. Probably an attempt at getting more people into WFB.

Oh, can anyone share a rough points cost for Neferata? I think exact costs are against the rules (unless published in WD?) so just a rough idea would be nice.

Given that Nagash is a campaign book as much as an army book, the 50% lords/50% heroes could simply be for this book. The presence of the rule in a single army book is not indicative of it appearing in later publications or being the standard for 9th edition.

I see it as a quick and easy way to let people use Nagash in smaller point games without having to hit/break the 4000 point mark.

[Katharon]

Considering heroes without models are being killed off I think we're going to see either Felix die and Gotrek wander off with no-one to record his doom, or Gotrek die followed shortly after by Felix.

*COUGH*

http://whfb.lexicanum.de/mediawiki/images/c/ce/Gotrek_(klassisch).JPG

They actually released two sets of models for Gotrek & Felix, the second had Ulrika and I forget the other. I think it might have been Max.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

It's not as simple as 'characters without models are being killed off'. Kemmler has a model. Eltharion has a model. Volkmar has a recent model. It's more a case that they're taking the opportunity to unite old and new background, slotting characters into appropriate parts of the story, and following through with the promise of the End Times by having death a real possibility. And also that characters withiut rules or recent models are less likely to have a good, nice time. Zachariah gets a hilarious-in-its-brevity "he died" sentence.

Y'all should actually buy the book, if you can, you'll see what we mean. This is the sort of quality output that needs to be encouraged.

(While acknowledging that is it expensive, and you might not want to, and might want instead to wait for a later chapter of more direct relevance to your own armies, all of which is a-ok!)

The 50% army generation rules are presented as rules for fighting battles in the End Times, and there's a preamble describing the set as a toolbox for players to use as they wish. These will stay as the rules for selecting armies of the End Times, though, not just Nagash: they want you to be able to use ALL the big, nasty special characters, some of them together, as well as the more sickeningly expensive Lords builds out there. These are the End Times, not border skirmishes, and it's not just a Nagash book.

[Katharon]

Yeah, I already took the plunge and ordered my own copy. I've also decided to revive my old, ancient Empire army. Thank goodness that Warlord games makes 28mm medieval figures that I like.

[eldargal]

Well Kemmler and Eltharions models are like 20 years old and Volkmar is an extra model in a big plastic kit but sure it isn't just about that.

I think the point is that with End Times you've got a potential easier gateway to WFB. 50% of your army can be taken up in one model, only need 25% in core which could be two boxes of troops then maybe a war machine or a monster or something. You're looking at 40k size 1000-1500pt armies and a bunch of huge, impressive plastic kits and epic stories coming out. It might not be for WFB in general but you get people thinking 'hey I can get an army to find End Times with a lot less models and expense now' and you hope they get hooked and expand their army more over time.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Yes, exactly so. And many of those big models are exciting, iconic, and they do interesting things on the battlefield. You're right into the "wow" factor, and you can concentrate on those 150 extra skeletons in your own time.

[Katharon]

I'm building a force of Warlord Games' Macedonian Phalangites (whose sarissa I shall cut down to spear size) and basically creating a background story that the army is centered around a mercenary army from the Border Princes that has worked previously, almost exclusively, around Tilea and Araby, before marching northwards at the call of gold and glory. Practically everything except for a few war machines and some cool wizard models will be coming from the Perry Twins or Warlord Games.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

That's a really cool idea; I was always a bit sad that we never saw much from that end of the world (Dogs of War aside). One of my first experiences with Warhammer was the Shadow of the Horned Rat game; the Border Princes as a region of mercenaries and squabbling minor lords has always stuck with me.

If you need another hook, Tilea and Estalia are now overrun with Skaven. There's not much left - but maybe your guys very smartly got out while the getting was good, and are now raising troops to retake (or just take) lost lands!

[Anggul]

I need something clarified. It seems they've retconned the Time of Legends Nagash/Vampires series. In them, Nagash created the immortals. After Nagash died, Neferata sought to recreate the immortal elixir, but screwed up and made vampires instead. She never fought alongside Nagash as one of his 'Mortarchs'. If she had, she would have been an immortal rather than a vampire, in fact vampires wouldn't exist at all.

What changed? Have the immortals been retconned and instead Nagash made the vampires? It seems odd to retcon Time of Legends as they're essentially the Fantasy equivalent of the Horus Heresy books.

[eldargal]

After Neferata was outed as a vampire and Lahmia was destroyed she and the survivors fled Norf and eventually all ended up at Nagashizzle where they fought for Nagash until Alcadizar or whatever his name is defeated them and they legged it and Nagash cursed them.:) So it's not a retcon to have them fighting alongside him now and I don't think anything has been changed about how the vampires came into being?

[Anggul]

After Neferata was outed as a vampire and Lahmia was destroyed she and the survivors fled Norf and eventually all ended up at Nagashizzle where they fought for Nagash until Alcadizar or whatever his name is defeated them and they legged it and Nagash cursed them.:) So it's not a retcon to have them fighting alongside him now and I don't think anything has been changed about how the vampires came into being?

I thought Nagash was dead before Neferata made the vampires. Was this after he returned?

[eldargal]

I think he wasn't dead but had just fled Khemri and Neferata used his books to make the vampires? I forget.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Nagash wasn't killed; he was defeated and driven north to Nagashizzar. Neferata discovered one of his books in the sacked Black Pyramid.

Arkhan got killed, though.

Nagash has been "killed" twice: once by Alcadizzar with the Fellblade, once by Sigmar.

The basic timeline as I recall it is: Nagash studies Black Magic, Nagash tries to take over, the Priest Kings drive him out, the Vampires are created and Lahmia falls, Nagash tries to take over but is beaten by Alcadizzar, Nagash unleashes a great plague which kills most of Nehekhara (aided by the Skaven) and then conducts his Great Ritual which raises them in undeath, and defeats Alcadizzar, Alcadizzar (aided by the Skaven) destroys Nagash.

Then, over a thousand years later, Nagash tries to get the gang back together, but many of them (especially the vampires) refuse. He gets beaten by Sigmar.

It's only at the hands of Arkhan and Mannfred that Nagash is once more able to manifest at anything like full power, and even then, he's only at about 80% because the ritual was subverted. Like Count Duckula.

People are too quick to call "retcon", I find.

[Anggul]

Nagash wasn't killed; he was defeated and driven north to Nagashizzar. Neferata discovered one of his books in the sacked Black Pyramid.

Arkhan got killed, though.

Nagash has been "killed" twice: once by Alcadizzar with the Fellblade, once by Sigmar.

People are too quick to call "retcon", I find.

Ah right, thanks. To clarify, this is second hand knowledge which is why I don't know it properly. Thought I had better find out for sure.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

No worries, man, I had to go back and forth with the Tomb Kings book to get the timeline right in my own head. I thought it was more like you did at first. :)

[eldargal]

I think the older lore had Neferata using some of Nagash's blood to make her elixir of life but the new VC book has her make it on her own in Lamia without his assistance, which I prefer.:) Then she finds out Nagash isn't ded and sends envoys but some get captured by the Khemrians andthe vampires get found out and Khemri attacks Lahmia.

[Wolfshade]

the ritual was subverted. Like Count Duckula.

+1 internets to you sir!

[Cap'nSmurfs]

"BLOOD"

"oi'll get iiiit!"

[Anggul]

I think the older lore had Neferata using some of Nagash's blood to make her elixir of life but the new VC book has her make it on her own in Lamia without his assistance, which I prefer.:) Then she finds out Nagash isn't ded and sends envoys but some get captured by the Khemrians andthe vampires get found out and Khemri attacks Lahmia.

I'm not sure using his blood counts as 'assistance' :P

But yeah I believe she just steals his documents and has a go at it, but it's probably not an easy thing to replicate without the knowledge of the original creator, thus the dependence on blood. And the being formed entirely of dark magic. And the despicable evil.

[eldargal]

When I finish my Nuln noble estate board (ahahaha><) I'm going ot make a Castle Duckula for my Vampire Countess.:)

[Anggul]

When I finish my Nuln noble estate board (ahahaha><) I'm going ot make a Castle Duckula for my Vampire Countess.:)

With Nanny the necromancer and Igor the wight I hope.

[eldargal]

Nanny = Varghulf:p
Igor = Necromancer.

Nanny will probably be a mixture of bits and lots of greenstuff hehe. Not sure about Igor yet. They won't be anthropomorphised animals.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Now, how to bring Trap Door into this equation...

[eldargal]

Berk! Feed Me!

Oh, guess what you can fit into a 1000pt End Times list:

Stabitha, Vampire Lord
Ogre Blade, Talisman of Protection, The Other Trickster's Shard, heavy armour, barded nightmare, Red Fury, Quick Blood, Fear Incarnate
450
http://static.rookiemag.com/2012/06/1338671929Strawberry6.jpg
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/ehhitnnB22k/maxresdefault.jpg

[Brakkart]

When I finish my Nuln noble estate board (ahahaha><) I'm going ot make a Castle Duckula for my Vampire Countess.:)

Castle Duckula, home for many centuries to a dreadful dynasty of vicious, vampire ducks... the Counts of Duckula!


Now, how to bring Trap Door into this equation...

Deep in the dark and nasty regions... where nobody goes, stands an ancient castle. Within this dank and uninviting place lives Berk.

"Hello!"

Overworked servant of The Thing Upstairs!

"BERK! FEED ME!"

But that's nothing compared to the horrors that lurk beneath The Trapdoor, there's always something down there... in the dark... waiting to come out... *cue awesome theme tune!*

I LOVE those series!

[eldargal]

Actually have Duckula on DVD, should watch it with my little cousins. Wonder if Trap Door is on DVD, I hope so.

[Mr Mystery]

Oh it is!

And on Amazon Prime.

[Wolfshade]

Actually have Duckula on DVD, should watch it with my little cousins. Wonder if Trap Door is on DVD, I hope so.

It is though unfortunately there are a lot fewer episodes than I seem to remember

[Katharon]

That's a really cool idea; I was always a bit sad that we never saw much from that end of the world (Dogs of War aside). One of my first experiences with Warhammer was the Shadow of the Horned Rat game; the Border Princes as a region of mercenaries and squabbling minor lords has always stuck with me.

If you need another hook, Tilea and Estalia are now overrun with Skaven. There's not much left - but maybe your guys very smartly got out while the getting was good, and are now raising troops to retake (or just take) lost lands!

Indeed! Now just need to find our local Skaven player and work out a campaign...

- - - Updated - - -

I will say for one thing that it strikes me as a little strange that the Von Carstein's would willingly support Nagash, seeing as how he would just dominate them. They've always seemed fairly independent-minded, along the same vein (pun intended) as Neferata; ie. seek to build and rule their own Undead Empire -- like Vlad always wanted.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Mannfred thought he could manipulate Nagash and use his power as his own; he can't. He didn't understand how utterly beyond him Nagash is. It is a subtext that not many of Nagash's nine Mortarchs actually like him very much, it's just that either there's nothing they can do about it - he can destroy you utterly without even trying - or there's something they can get from hitching their wagon to his. Vlad wants Isabella back; Mannfred still wants to rule and is now trying to find a way to slip away from Nagash's hold over him. Neferata wanted Lahmia back.

It's pretty nuanced. You're right, and I'm glad they've addressed it. It's a very loose alliance. At the end, Khalida bends her knee to Nagash, but only because it gives her an excellent opportunity to seek revenge on Neferata.

[Brakkart]

So if there are nine Mortarch's and Arkhan, Mannfred, Neferata, Krell and Vlad are five of them, who are the other four? Are they named at all in the book?

[Mr Mystery]

Two others I can think of straight off the bat (PUN!)

The Nameless - Remains so, though I suspect it might be Drachenfels...

That Vampire from the Vampire Coast.

Also, I think, but don't quote me, Dieter Helsnicht may have been one?

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Walach Harkon, The Nameless (who is Constant Drachenfels from the Genevieve Books, 99% sure), Dieter Helsnicht, and the Vampire King of the Pirate Coast, What'shisname Harkon.

[Mr Mystery]

Thats them!

At least two are out for the count already.

I won't reveal who or how, as even my spoilers have their limits! :) (no reason others can't though. I'm no paragon of spoilerdom!)

[Darren Richardson]

Hang on a mo, I thought Drachenfels was dead as in Permently Dead?

[daboarder]

Hang on a mo, I thought Drachenfels was dead as in Permently Dead?

Yeah, but this is nagash we is talking about, death is just an inconvenience.

[Morgrim]

(Random side note, but I can't help laughing at there being a Mortarch of Drachenfels because I have been to the Drachenfels Castle in Germany and it is very suited to having a vampire ruling over it.)

[Darren Richardson]

(Random side note, but I can't help laughing at there being a Mortarch of Drachenfels because I have been to the Drachenfels Castle in Germany and it is very suited to having a vampire ruling over it.)

Drachenfels wasn't a Vampire, he was a discorparate spirit which would possess a body until it rotted away, and then he would possess a new host.....

Hmmm now to think about it, how DO you truely kill a spirit?

[Mr Mystery]

drachenfels wasn't a vampire, he was a discorparate spirit which would possess a body until it rotted away, and then he would possess a new host.....

Hmmm now to think about it, how do you truely kill a spirit?

kick it in the face with enchanted steel toecaps!

[eldargal]

Heard from a friend who has her copy (><) and was a bit unimpressed with a few things related to the female characters, though she still says the book is brilliant and amazing and other superlatives:


-Eldyra gets vamped and then isn't mentioned again once
-Neferata gets treated like ****. She gets defeated and saved by Krell.
-She only doesn't die permanently because Nagash awakening gives her an influx of power
-Her senior handmaiden from her novel, Naaima, is demoted to make way for a new senior handmaiden who exists only to get destroyed by the Anvil of Doooooooom
-She loses more of her senior lieutenants (female) than any of the other mortarchs
-Khalida is brilliantly portrayed, but at the expense of Neferata because you can't have two badass female leaders in the same book?
-Neferata disposes of potential handmaidens that she thinks may be smarter or more cunning than she is, undermining her own abilities in a way none of the other Mortarchs whose abilities are never questioned
So, kind of puts a dampener on it. On the bright side, I should have my copy this evening so yay!

[Mr Mystery]

Ah, but you have to look at the character of Neferata.

She is not a Warrior. She isn't a War Leader. She's a master spymistress. That is/was her power over the world. Suddenly being forced to act (weighs up options of standing up to Nagash, makes the right if indeed not outright only decision), without the time to properly formulate a plan.

The above synopsis, whilst not exactly inaccurate, simply does not do justice to her story within the book.

Also - Eldyra....well, she's been told she's been Vamped. But being told anything by a Von Carstein, and then what is actually true are of course radically different things!

[eldargal]

It was still a choice by the authors to write her that way. They could have had her manipulating things and using her skills that way, using her strengths but instead they wrote her in a position where she was at a disadvantage unlike the other Mortarchs and she is the one who suffers the most setbacks by the sound of it.

I think the issue is that once her role as potential rescuer of Aliathra is wrapped up her character is dropped, not that everything we have heard about her is accurate.

[Mr Mystery]

See, Neferata is in the same boat as Mannfred and Vlad.

Exactly none of them particularly want Nagash up and about - they're too selfish. Mannfred followed because he thought to turn things to his advantage. Vlad - well he didn't get much choice being ressurected and all. He's been promised help finding Isabella, who apparently did not join him wherever he went. Neferata? Saw how things were going, and realised she had to bend the knee for continue survival, particularly as she is one of the only survivors from the original Vampires, and had already majorly failed Nagash.

Give it a read, and see what you think within the wider setting :)

[eldargal]

But were Mannfred and Vlad put into situations that didn't suit their strengths though? Also Neferata isn't exactly rubbish in a fight, I mean she took a Dwarf fortress in a siege in her novel.

[Mr Mystery]

Mannfred was. Again, he prefers his political schemes, only taking to the field when necessary.

Vlad - not so much. He's off defending the North, and doing it very much in his own intimable style.

For my money, it's the Mortarchs who will take down Nagash. I wouldn't be at all surprised if Mannfred buys the farm, leaving Vlad. Neferata? She might be okay, hard to tell really.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

That's not quite fair on Neferata. I think she could've done with a competence boost in the book; but, again, she isn't a warrior or a general. She's a master manipulator. She knows about Aliathra; Mannfred and Arkhan don't.

Even with all that, it's worth pointing out that both of Neferata's campaigns as part of the war are successful. She achieves her goal of providing Nagash with the awesome power he needs to achieve his great work, defeating a whole host of goblin hordes, rock-hard dwarfs, and the sundry denizens of the depths into the bargain. Later, she successfully draws off and holds a big chunk of Settra's army, preventing them from reinforcing Settra. Khalida's army is a serious deal; it's serially stated that Nagash's army is an outnumbered rabble against the masses of lock-step troops the Tomb Kings possess. Doing as well as they do against it is quite a feat.

Also, Mannfred loses lots of his servants. There are plenty of useless Von Carsteins who get killed. Mannfred has to be saved from being killed by one of them, too, then that servant falls foul of the Tomb King's Curse. Worst of all, Mannfred realises that he's actually... not very good. Not as good as he thought he was. Not as powerful, not as smart, not as cunning, not as important. I wouldn't portray it as a bad time for Neferata and a good time for Mannfred, exactly. (Arkhan is having a whale of a time, though; he and Vlad are the big winners).

Helsnicht has been eating the brains of his minions the whole way there.

As I said initially, it isn't all it could be, and I'm still hoping later volumes will continue and reinforce the trend they've started. I thought that there was a bit too much damselry in the book. I would have liked Neferata to be a bit more independently powerful (and she is a beast in combat as depicted, to be fair), but she actually fits well with the other Mortarchs, who also suffer similar setbacks. Neferata is almost killed, yes; Krell gets his head cut off by a Tomb Scorpion, of all ignominious fates; Mannfred is almost killed by a Tomb King; Arkhan gets cut in half and dragged around behind Settra's chariot; Vlad fails, ultimately, to stem the tide of Chaos, even as he manipulates Walach Harkon's dragon into tearing the Blood Dragon apart.

The *positive* is that it's absolutely bursting with female characters. Like they've really made an effort and, hopefully, will continue to do so. Plenty of them get to be Big Damn Heroes, just not necessarily without problems. Eldyra is still around, and she goes out swinging (literally!). Much better than Belannaer gets. Infinitely better than Zachariah the Everliving!

For a GW book - for a wargames book - it's right up there with the best. Does a dance on the grave of most 40k game books (not necessarily novels).

I think things will pick up even more when Morathi comes into the limelight.

[eldargal]

Well that's good. She said they were basically nitpicks against an otherwise 10/10 book. She did say what happened to Zacarias was hilarious.:)

I just hope they follow through with models for more of the women. The Tsarina, Eldyra, Morathi (she so needs a new model), Countess of Nuln of they decide to do anything with her.

[Mr Mystery]

Oh, and even Nagash himself gets all stabbed up off Prince Apophas wielding Destroyer of Eternities...

[Theik]

Oh, and even Nagash himself gets all stabbed up off Prince Apophas wielding Destroyer of Eternities...

And then he's like "what you doing you silly scarab fellow?" and flings him off and away.

[Mr Mystery]

And then he's like "what you doing you silly scarab fellow?" and flings him off and away.

Oh I think more choice words were had than that....

Think Liz 10 in Doctor Who.....except not The Queen.....more 'GOD OF YOUR UNDERWORLD, DOOFUS!'

[Honu]

Oh great! Just when I'm starting Fantasy with High Elves, The World Ends! And I haven't even recieved my minis! That's why we can't have nice things...

XD

TBH I'm kind of confused with all these. I do just started Fantasy and I'm waiting for my minis to arrive. I'm hoping they are still useful

[Mr Mystery]

Oh they will be.

Just because a character is dead in the background, is no reason you can't field them in a battle (Konrad anyone?).

This is just background stuff, and introducing a slightly different way to play (50% of your stuff can be Lords, 50% can be Heroes, as long as at least 25% is Core, and you have at least three units).

Nothing has been negated, and you don't need to play End Times rules :)

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Now is honestly an exciting time to be starting. There's a lot of buzz about.

And, yeah, half of the extant Warhammer characters have been "dead" at one time or another, I wouldn't worry too much. The game is - has always been - about Your Guys. Eltharion died in their story? But you won that scenario! In your campaign, he lives on. And so on and on.

- - - Updated - - -

I have a question, actually. As part of Neferata's Lahmian Guard, you can replace the normal Champion with a Ushabti Champion (of sorts). It represents a named character, but as far as I can tell, he isn't in the Nagash narrative at all. Who is that guy? Is he good? Is he from the Nagash novels...?

[Erik Setzer]

Given that Nagash is a campaign book as much as an army book, the 50% lords/50% heroes could simply be for this book. The presence of the rule in a single army book is not indicative of it appearing in later publications or being the standard for 9th edition.

I see it as a quick and easy way to let people use Nagash in smaller point games without having to hit/break the 4000 point mark.

The rules for selecting an army state that you use them for all armies, just as everyone has access to the Lore of Undeath. If you're arguing that someone can't use 50% Lords because "It's not an End Times game," then they can't use the Lore of Undeath either. But both are meant to be additions/changes to the core game. And I do believe the 50% Lords is a good indication for 9th edition, as they seem to recognize people like spiffy characters and building an army around them (see Warmachine), and this also reduces the cost to jump in.

Also, the combined profile for a character riding a monster is likely to be a fixture in 9th edition, making such models more viable on the table, and helping to sell them. (A lot of people are skipping on monster-riding characters because of issues with sniping the monster or stuff like that.)

I think they're actually redoing the background and slowly introducing game rules leading up to a serious shakeup for WFB in 9th edition. It might end up being a bit of a system shock to those of us who've been playing for a long time, but if it helps the system start selling better and regain popularity, I'm all for that, especially as we'll have the 8th edition rules and a full set of army books if we want to fall back on the old style. (I have a sneaking suspicion that's why they want to get every army book released with a new hardback before 9th edition is released, and I'm pretty much okay with that, because even though they might all end up "obsolete," they'll be available for people to play if they want to.)

[Theik]

Now is honestly an exciting time to be starting. There's a lot of buzz about.

And, yeah, half of the extant Warhammer characters have been "dead" at one time or another, I wouldn't worry too much. The game is - has always been - about Your Guys. Eltharion died in their story? But you won that scenario! In your campaign, he lives on. And so on and on.

- - - Updated - - -

I have a question, actually. As part of Neferata's Lahmian Guard, you can replace the normal Champion with a Ushabti Champion (of sorts). It represents a named character, but as far as I can tell, he isn't in the Nagash narrative at all. Who is that guy? Is he good? Is he from the Nagash novels...?

Can't find any info on google about him, nor in the story book, oddly enough.

[MVL]

Gelt becomes a necromancer of sorts, throwing in his lot with Vlad von Carstein. It's hinted that he's been getting his best ideas from Neferata's coven for a while. The head of the Amber College is now the Supreme Patriarch.

The College of Death crumbled into ash on Nagash's ascension.



The hell?????

How does the Amethyst college crumble? You mean the building? Who cares? What do the magisters do? Are they badasses? Anything about Elspeth von Draken and her Carmine dragon? Where the hell are the magisters of death in all of this? The one biggest defense the Empire has vs. the undead besides Morr's priests are barely mentioned in these posts.

And for that matter, what about the priests of Morr? Are they kicking *** and taking names?

What about the other colleges? I can't see them sitting still and doing nothing. Where is Thyrus Gormann and why isn't he the Supreme Patriarch? Does Gelt kill him? Ugh...the Amber Order? Seriously?

I'm very worried that the Empire mages have been screwed. They were badass as hell in Storm of Chaos and now I've seen maybe 2 posts concerning them....

[eldargal]

Had a bit of a read of my copy last night, pretty amazing as a book, so much background to get through.

I think Drycha or whatever her name is is up to shenanigans. I mean she just delivers Morgiana to Mannfred and clears off so conveniently? This is orchestrated, I think Morgiana figured out what was going on and volunteered herself as a sacrifice to help foul up Nagash and Aliathra's parentage is just a bonus too.

Also Alarielle going to save Ariel is nice.

[Mr Mystery]

Ariel reminds me...

Possibly Lady Not Appearing In This Book for a reason?

Could we see a Nagash style, super powered and vengeful nature Goddess?

As the song by Sparks goes.....


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=haf5s0b--zw

That would be exceptionally, excrutiatingly cool....

[Theik]

Had a bit of a read of my copy last night, pretty amazing as a book, so much background to get through.

I think Drycha or whatever her name is is up to shenanigans. I mean she just delivers Morgiana to Mannfred and clears off so conveniently? This is orchestrated, I think Morgiana figured out what was going on and volunteered herself as a sacrifice to help foul up Nagash and Aliathra's parentage is just a bonus too.

Also Alarielle going to save Ariel is nice.

Morgiana's death doesn't really change the thing one bit though, she's a proper sacrifice because she's got divine blood, she's the earthly form of the Lady of the Lake. The only reason the ritual goes south is because Aliathra has no true divine blood in her (Everqueen x current Pheonix King), but instead bears Tyrion's curse (which goes back all the way to Aenarion drawing the Sword of Khaine.)

I think Drycha is acting on orders from Coeddil and they have thrown in their lot with Nagash. Undead couldn't care less about the great forest so once all the beastmen and the wood elves are (un)dead, the forest spirits have the forest all to themselves again.

[eldargal]

That's what I'm hoping/half-expecting. A giant plastic Ariel as an avatar for the natural Warhammer World itself as a kind of counterpoint to Nagash. Hopefully they won't kill Alarielle to do it though, should be able to have two powerful women elves co-existing in the same world.

Morgiana's death doesn't really change the thing one bit though, she's a proper sacrifice because she's got divine blood, she's the earthly form of the Lady of the Lake. The only reason the ritual goes south is because Aliathra has no true divine blood in her (Everqueen x current Pheonix King), but instead bears Tyrion's curse (which goes back all the way to Aenarion drawing the Sword of Khaine.)

I think Drycha is acting on orders from Coeddil and they have thrown in their lot with Nagash. Undead couldn't care less about the great forest so once all the beastmen and the wood elves are (un)dead, the forest spirits have the forest all to themselves again.
You mean we don't know that it changes anything, I don't expect we have seen the impact of Morgiana's sacrifice yet, it will come to light in a future book (if it happens). Also it isn't that Aliathra doesn't have divine blood, she does from her mother, it is that she isnt pure divine blood uniting both the Phoenix King and Everqueen lines and contains the curse of Aenarion as well.

See I don't think that makes sense, its just to convenient that they just happen to switch sides before things really go pear shaped and they just happen to be able to catch Morgiana whose blood Mannfred needs and get her to Sylvania and so forth. Especially when there is no futher mention of their betrayal.

[Mr Mystery]

I reckon they might 'merge' into a single entity.

Not 100% sure where you're up to, and this isn't the spoiler thread, but yeah....strikes me that we are staring down a reunification of the Elven race. And I would really like to see Malekith ascend the throne.....

[eldargal]

I reckon they might 'merge' into a single entity.

Not 100% sure where you're up to, and this isn't the spoiler thread, but yeah....strikes me that we are staring down a reunification of the Elven race. And I would really like to see Malekith ascend the throne.....

That's what I'm worried about honestly, we should be able to have more than one powerful elf woman-goddess. Let Ariel go all avatar of nature but don't lose Alarielle in the process, unless it is some kind of temporary Transformers combiner type thing.

I've skimmed the whole thing and read half the first chapter or something. I'm not sure I see a full reunification for the Elves but maybe some kind of detente and peace feelers and such.

[Mr Mystery]

Oooooh....

Do you think we might be seeing a general rebirth of the Old Gods in End Times?

Nagash - God of Death (no direct Chaos equivalent)

AlarielleArielAutomatic - God of Life/Nature (gobbling up Taal and Rhya and that)....

Others??

That would be really quite cool!

[Theik]

Oooooh....

Do you think we might be seeing a general rebirth of the Old Gods in End Times?

Nagash - God of Death (no direct Chaos equivalent)

AlarielleArielAutomatic - God of Life/Nature (gobbling up Taal and Rhya and that)....

Others??

That would be really quite cool!

I wouldn't really call Nagash a rebirth of the god of death, considering he ate the god of death to become the god of death. Khemri went down one god of death and then got Nagash in his place. At best that's exchanging gods.

[eldargal]

I think that is what he means, a kind of reshaping of the divine order of WFB. There have been hints in BL novels for a while now that Alarielle and Ariel are connected as part of some kind of nascent nature goddess so it seems legit.

[Mr Mystery]

Yarp.

Get the Old Gods back on the battlefield.

It's already shown Ptra had Angels. Or something closed. Did have anyway. Nagash jobbed them all, and then raised them up, because that's the kinda person he are!

[lingula]

The wood elf army being led to Sylvannia by Araloth part was kinda interesting - and the bit where Araloth's 'goddess' leads them though a portal to 'a distant shore' also hints at stuff in another book. that and Mazadamundi's "The exodus must begin" hopefully hints at some serious future badassery.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

The Gods thing is an important one, as the End Times brings together all the Chosen Ones and Divine entities of the Old World. The Everchosen, Sigmar Reborn, Gilles le Breton, now Nagash... it only stands to reason that Ariel (or something she becomes) would be involved. That's a good thought.

I can't see them sacrificing Alarielle, with her lovely new model and rules.

[Theik]

The Gods thing is an important one, as the End Times brings together all the Chosen Ones and Divine entities of the Old World. The Everchosen, Sigmar Reborn, Gilles le Breton, now Nagash... it only stands to reason that Ariel (or something she becomes) would be involved. That's a good thought.

I can't see them sacrificing Alarielle, with her lovely new model and rules.
To be fair, new model for Volkmar looks badass, but he still bites the dust to become Nagash's new body. (Is this why Nagash can use lore of light spells? :D)

[eldargal]

Volkars model is just bits in another kit though really.

[Mr Mystery]

The wood elf army being led to Sylvannia by Araloth part was kinda interesting - and the bit where Araloth's 'goddess' leads them though a portal to 'a distant shore' also hints at stuff in another book. that and Mazadamundi's "The exodus must begin" hopefully hints at some serious future badassery.

I reckon Froggy McFroggington is leading an exodus (movement of the people) to the Southlands.... Or they're just going to leave the planet to it and nick off into 40k :p

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Nagash can use the Lore of Light because he was a Liche Priest of Nehekhara. They can use Light magic, remember~

[Theik]

Nagash can use the Lore of Light because he was a Liche Priest of Nehekhara. They can use Light magic, remember~

Tell that to Arkhan / Neferata. They're both mages from Nekhara and they can't use light magic :P

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Neither of them was a Liche Priest, though. Neither Arkhan nor Neferata learned the Liche Priests' secrets from Nagash; only the Lore of Death etc.

I imagine Neferata couldn't use it even if she knew it, being anathema to Vampires and all. She does alright with Death, Shadows, Vampires and Undeath, though, that's not a small pool. :)

[MVL]

Neither of them was a Liche Priest, though. Neither Arkhan nor Neferata learned the Liche Priests' secrets from Nagash; only the Lore of Death etc.

I imagine Neferata couldn't use it even if she knew it, being anathema to Vampires and all. She does alright with Death, Shadows, Vampires and Undeath, though, that's not a small pool. :)

The lore of Light isn't anathema to vampires as far as I'm aware, only the lore of Death is. Realms of Sorcery goes into detail on how Hierophants of the Light order are in fact useless vs. necromancy, as their powers of exorcism work only vs. daemons, and are very inefficient against the undead.

[eldargal]

Finally read through to the start of chapter 2 properly. Very impressive and engaging, also beautiful, lovely art. Can't remember half of what I was going to talk about 'cos I woke up to oearly but whatevers:

-Agree with my friend about the Bretonnian damsels. They get a badass introduction paragraph in the arm description, then they get a paragraph where they get killed almost as an afterthought, it was thoroughly unsatisfying in pages and pages of battle.
-Why are all the von Carsteins male?
-Ulthuan and Naggaroth seem to be doing the best at the moment in terms of containing demonic invasion and Nagash being well away from them.
-With aliathra ded and Alarielle seemingly risking her life to save Ariel the line of Everqueen is looking a bit shaky, if it ends I will be Imperially pissed off, not enough powerful women in WFB as it is.
-What's up with Finubar? Was Teclis pale after visiting him 'cos he was cray cray or turned into a chaos spawn or something or because Finubar told him about Nagash and such?
-Who is the 'she' that was helping Gelt set up the shields to contain Sylvania and the plan for a bigger one to defend against Chaos? Neferata?
-I liked that at least before Nagash reappearing the undead still have to play itsafe. The plan to attack Heldenhame by drawing off msot of the defenders was really good, rather than just overwhelming them utterly. Made the Empire seem competent and the baddies clever.
-Other stuff I forget.

Really happy with how it is going, still have worries about whether or not representation of women will improve or not. There are a lot of hints it might at least with the Elves, but everything to do with the Empire and Bretonnia has been completely male dominated. Maybe kill of some elector counts and have their daughters rally their troops? Probably too much to ask.

[Mr Mystery]

Speaking of which....

Rescued my Luthor Huss novel from the pub, where I lost it yonks ago. Started re-reading it.

One of the characters is the sole survivor of an Undead attack on her village, and throws her lot in with Huss.

More please!

[Nightrave]

I'm up to page 134. Stayed up all night reading. I am mixed on my feelings. First I love the book overall and I am not done. Second I'm horrified by the loss of some "side characters" I have come to have vested interest in. I play vampires myself as my primary but I have owned and played all three elves (only have wood elves left) and lizzies. So my heart strings were plucked when some of the elves died as they did. Though I am extremely interested in Eldyra now. This book is exciting at the very least. But I agree. More strong female characters.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

The identity of the "she" who is giving Gelt all his best ideas is revealed later. Vlad knows, basically. Of course Vlad knows. Vlad is brilliant. But it isn't hard to guess. :)

I think Everqueen is in a safer position than Phoenix King. My bet is Finubar is dead.

The fate of the damsels is the worst bit. I was annoyed.

By the way, I read the Phil Kelly short story Cage of Bones, which covers the nine sacrifices as they're carted off to the ritual. It's a so-so story with a big sting at the end (Spoiler):

Morgiana le Fay is a vampire. How dead is she really?

[eldargal]

I expected it would be. Only read that one reference from the girl so my money is on Neferata or at a stretch Morathi but I'm sure it will become clearer.

Well the fact the Phoenix Guard all swore fealty to Tyrion was suggestive of shenanigans there. Think they just aren't going public because it would lead to lots of infighting and politicking when they need to be fighting.

Yup, really annoyed, they could have at least had them do something other than die but no. They were possibly the most useless named characters in the book so far. Apart from Zacarias lol.

Ooh, nifty.

[Lord Ezekial]

Reading all of this really makes me want to get back into fantasy.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Yep. :)

[Tzeentch's Dark Agent]

Isabella von Carstein is a woman...

[Mr Mystery]

Do anyone got the Nagash novel, and is it worth having?

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I didn't, so I can't say. I'm working my way through his Time of Legends series again, though, and then Blood of Nagash.

[Gwhizz84]

Since this thread is all about the spoilers.. I've just read Master of Death and it's strongly implied that W'soran, rather than biting the bullet as originally written.. actually possesses Melkhior to escape suspicion. What I'd like to know is, did Melkhior 'pretend' die to Zacharias, and is that why Zacharias dies so easily, because Nagash knew it was W'soran and he was like hell nah!

[eldargal]

Read another chapter last night, getting pretty nifty. More thingies:

-I think Teclis is working with Morathi, I can't imagine Malekith being so familiar as to call him nephew whereas Morathi is totes crushing on Tyrion and some of that could easily extent to Teclis.
-Eltharion is well ded. Poor stormwing though.
-Baleannar should have invested in a dispell scroll
-I liked how the disunity and lack of coordination of the allied armies entering Sylvania was rather more believable than it often is.
-Neferata was behind Gelts shield thingy.

Good chapter, nothing quite si annoying as the stupid Bretonnian damsels scene.

[Mr Mystery]

See what I mean about the Elven Warrior Princess (who has absolutely badass rules!) not necessarily being a Vampire?

[eldargal]

She has rules? Lol I need to re-read the rulebook again heh. Certainly something going on there, I mean she wasn't breathing and she culd hear voices in her head but her first impulse was to kill the vampires and we know from Ulrika and Genevieve that even comparatively weak willed humans can at least try and be good vampires, so what about the much more strong willed Elves? Mannfred talked about Elves making poor vampires, what if it is really because they are too strong willed to be controlled by their sires?

[Mr Mystery]

Quite possible!

And her rules? Eldyra and her unit get +1 to hit.......Elven Lawnmower at the ready....

[Cap'nSmurfs]

She has rules in the same way Iyanna of Iyanden has rules; she's represented in the Death at the Nine Daemons scenario.

[eldargal]

Oh, missed that.>< Better than nothing. Kind of miffed they couldn't even be bothered to give her a decent art piece, she gets a generic silver helm sketch where you can't even see her face (which is the point I would imagine). Hope they do something with her more in future books and give her some art and a model.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Probably won't happen. Morathi I think might, though. Maybe.

[eldargal]

I don't know, chances are they will stop producing Eltharions very old model and with him ded there is an opening in the army book next time around.

[Mr Mystery]

Would be nice to get a new spesh character.

[eldargal]

Yup, seems like this is the ideal opportunity also. Killing off a bunch, reshaping the situation of everyone, refresh some of those books with very old characters that everyone knows.

[Mr Mystery]

And I'm still excite about where this is going to end up!

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Yeah, I think what's happening here - with regards to it being a "reboot" - is that altering (moving on, what have you) the setting in this way gives them an ideal opportunity to not just look at the old ranges and think, well, we can do a new version of this guy and that guy, but instead to add new characters, new models, without complaints about retcons and so on. Eltharion's dead, his model might well still be available (they like the classics), but it means they're not beholden to do New Eltharion! in the future, but instead someone fresh and new.

I'm pretty sure Eldyra is a vampire, guys, sorry. It's an Elvira joke.

[eldargal]

Yeah she's a vampire, just wondering what an elfs stronger will might change in terms of obedience and thirst and such, might not be the greatest ally for Mannfred etc. Eventually Eltharions model will go out of production though, it won't be worht renewing the mould and so forth.

Up to chapter 4 now, finished the battle of Valaya's Gate. Still not happy with how Neferata came so close to being killed against the goblins. Also Neferata wasn't responsible for the faith shield around Sylvania so that's confusing.

[Mr Mystery]

I reckon it might be Morathi.

After all, if she worked on the theory, she's most likely to get some other idiot to actually try it, just in case it all goes a bit wonky....

And it appears she's whispering sweet nothings into the ears of Teclis, so why not Gelt?

[flipchuck]

Aww bone it....when in Rome...

Why don't they bring back Sigmar back from the dead? Maybe the Empire wizards and priests get together and creat a powerfule magical ritual and bring him back. And the ritual could make him more powerful or bring him back as an actual god. Have him with all the prayers of sigmar (since he is sigmar), maybe boost the warrior priests powers in the army list. Have hinm retake his magical hammer. Make him a bassass in combat.

Or at least as powerful as an avtar or something. The model could be tall as a orge. Maybe have him ride a dragon.

[Mr Mystery]

We may yet see that - remember, Gelt is now into his Necromancy. What's the betting he might be able to wrestle Sigmar's soul into Valten?

[flipchuck]

We may yet see that - remember, Gelt is now into his Necromancy. What's the betting he might be able to wrestle Sigmar's soul into Valten?

Naw...have things really change up. Have Karl the empire's Empirer die. And then they use his body as Sigmar's vessel. And then that's cause the Empire to spit up like during the time of Mordhiem game's background. Divide the Empire into two factions. One that believes that Valten is the true Sigmar and the other believes in the karl/sigmar vessel is the true sigmar....not only do they fight each other in a civil wr but also the undead.

[White Tiger88]

Quite possible!

And her rules? Eldyra and her unit get +1 to hit.......Elven Lawnmower at the ready....

Wait does this mean she can be taken in a Normal High Elf army?????


Also what is Malus Darkblade up to? (Also i wonder if Malekith happened to go fetch a certain sword.......)

[Cap'nSmurfs]

No, read above. She's represented in a narrative scenario.

Darkblade's been sent to say hello to the suspiciously-quiet Morathi.

Malekith does not have the Sword of Khaine (yet). You'd know about it if he did.

[White Tiger88]

No, read above. She's represented in a narrative scenario.

Darkblade's been sent to say hello to the suspiciously-quiet Morathi.

Malekith does not have the Sword of Khaine (yet). You'd know about it if he did.

Shame i could use a Vampire Elf Woman in my army.........

Oh and Don't worry Malekith will try to take the sword at some point.......OR maybe Darkblade will O.o

[Michael Kapuscinski]

Okay. Y'all ready for this? #youregonnalikethis

So, I'm betting that the Emperor is gonna come down and pick up Nagash and Karl Sigmar, who i'm sure we all know are the missing primarchs, take them up into orbit of the planet, which im sure we all know is just a maiden world in the eye. Then he is going to virus bomb the place into oblivion with the dual purpose of killing off the Squats (who I'm sure we all knew were hiding out in Karaz a Karak all along) and as a ploy to end Warhammer fantasy. Due to both its obvious lack of popularity as well as space marines.

All this leading up to the reveal that it was all just a dream and Graham McNeil wakes up at the end. Of course.

Edited for swype failures. Pardon my grammar and punctuation, composed on a smart phone.

[Mr Mystery]

Shame i could use a Vampire Elf Woman in my army.........

Oh and Don't worry Malekith will try to take the sword at some point.......OR maybe Darkblade will O.o

There's not a great deal about the Elves in this volume to be honest. Pretty much everyone is touched on (and not in a 70's Celebrity kind of way), but Elves don't get much fleshing out. I reckon they'll be busy enough to get their own volume.

Malekith starts off a most unhappy bunny. Valkia The Bloody is leading an invasion of Naggaroth, and is doing really rather well for herself.

Malekith postpones his invasion of Ulthuan, even apologising the noble meant to lead that assault, and draws up plans. Darkblade is sent off to make sure Morathi is safe and well.

And to be honest, that's about it for now! Stay tuned though, as we've definitely not heard the last of these (especially as it's revealed Teclis is conspiring with Morathi for some reason, about something!)

[Learn2Eel]

Yeah she's a vampire, just wondering what an elfs stronger will might change in terms of obedience and thirst and such, might not be the greatest ally for Mannfred etc. Eventually Eltharions model will go out of production though, it won't be worht renewing the mould and so forth.

Up to chapter 4 now, finished the battle of Valaya's Gate. Still not happy with how Neferata came so close to being killed against the goblins. Also Neferata wasn't responsible for the faith shield around Sylvania so that's confusing.

It is pretty obvious that the Chaos Gods are the ones responsible for the faith shield around Sylvania, after all who benefits more from the Undead being locked up than them? No possibility of Nagash being brought back by the meddlesome Mannfred, and no possibility of the Undead armies helping the Empire to stand against the coming invasion as they have done in the past. It is mentioned quite explicitly that Gelt has conspired unknowingly with both Chaos and the Undead.


I reckon it might be Morathi.

After all, if she worked on the theory, she's most likely to get some other idiot to actually try it, just in case it all goes a bit wonky....

And it appears she's whispering sweet nothings into the ears of Teclis, so why not Gelt?

As above.
Remember, it is not guaranteed that Morathi is the one chatting to Teclis; it is still quite possible that it is Malekith. The reason I think it is more likely to be Malekith than Morathi is because the "voice" seems almost amused and appears to poke fun at Tyrion. If it was Morathi she would probably be far more courteous and also wouldn't refer to the person she stalwartly believes to be Aenarion reborn almost as if he was a fool. I also wouldn't think Morathi would refer to Teclis as "nephew" in such a teasing way, but I guess anything is possible. Still, that she is cooped up in her tower and seemingly forbade her sorceress' followers from warning the Dark Elves of the incoming Daemon invasion does point to her being the conspirator with Teclis.


No, read above. She's represented in a narrative scenario.

Darkblade's been sent to say hello to the suspiciously-quiet Morathi.

Malekith does not have the Sword of Khaine (yet). You'd know about it if he did.

I think the overwhelming evidence points to Tyrion being the one to draw the Widowmaker, not Malekith. Teclis intentionally got the "Everchild" - Tyrion's daughter - killed, and thus was also indirectly responsible for the Everqueen traveling to Athel Loren beyond Tyrion's reach. It is heavily implied that she will die in the process of trying to heal Ariel, likely from whatever is infecting Ariel. Tyrion and Teclis almost came to blows because Tyrion wanted to mount another expedition to find his daughter Aliathra, and it was only a constant reminder of his duty to protect Ulthuan that Tyrion begrudgingly chose to stay. The background has pointed to the madness of Aenarion propping up more and more as Tyrion ages, as evidenced by when he goes absolutely ballistic at the Dwarf High King Thorgrim in the Dwarf army book when Mannfred gets away with Aliathra. He is the most heroic living High Elf but would quite obviously be driven mad with grief if he learns both Aliathra and Alarielle perish.

The guy is described everywhere as Aenarion Reborn in all but mind - Morathi married Aenarion, remember, and is utterly convinced that Tyrion is her long-dead lover that is merely possessed by the wrong mind/personality, so much so that in the Dark Elf book she is narrowly stopped from completing a ritual that would apparently fully turn Tyrion into Aenarion. Heck, the guy runs around with Aenarion's armour and sword (before he picked up the Widowmaker) and the curse of Aenarion's blood runs heavily through Tyrion. Remember, Teclis purposefully sacrificed Aliathra so that Nagash would have Aenarion's blood curse rather than the power of Asuryan as Arkhan intended. In fact, that is the only thing that stopped Nagash from fully absorbing the Wind of Death, Shyish. If Tyrion finds out that not only are his partner and daughter dead, but that his twin brother - the person he trusts more than anyone else in the world - was responsible for his daughter's death (and by extension the deaths of Eltharion the Grim, close friend of Tyrion, several major Elven heroes and his squire Eldyra) I think of all the powerful Elves he would be the one with by far the most reason to draw the Widowmaker.

Why do you think after Tyrion leaves Teclis once they complete their short conversation, Teclis says something along the lines of "I have played my part brother, now you must play yours". This would also fit with Malekith being the secret voice speaking to Teclis; both are trying to buy time against Chaos with a corrupted (i.e. not full power) Nagash, while they try to ruin Tyrion's life in the process and drive him to desperate measures both in his grief and his desire to protect Ulthuan. Malekith would want nothing to do with the Widowmaker himself as he knows full well what the curse would do to him - he wants to rule over all Elves forever, and the Widowmaker is pretty much guaranteed to lead to his death pretty quickly upon drawing it. Enter Tyrion, a pawn of both Teclis and Malekith, who can draw the Widowmaker and fully become Aenarion Reborn. If any hero could stop both Nagash and the Chaos legions, it would be Tyrion with the Widowmaker and would also give a very good reason why Elves are getting their own End Times book. If Aenarion comes back as Tyrion with the Widowmaker - a blade that makes the wielder virtually unstoppable - then that would be the perfect "Forces of Order" character to combat Nagash and Archaeon, wouldn't you agree? Then once Tyrion dies as anyone wielding the Widowmaker eventually does, Malekith is free to move in and take over Ulthuan to unite the two nations together under his iron fist. Whether Teclis actually wants this to happen or not is currently unknown, though from what I can tell of Teclis he is more interested with just the general safety of the Elves than anything else (as evidenced by willingly sacrificing his niece). He probably sees the rule of Malekith as the lesser but necessary evil as opposed to outright destruction by either Nagash or the Chaos Gods.

There are some interesting tidbits though that I haven't seen raised anywhere for some reason. When Tyrion goes to the Shrine of Asuryan in place of Finubar the Phoenix King - who apparently is either dead, missing or just generally not helping - the Phoenix Guard all muster before Tyrion and then bow as one to him. The only person the Phoenix Guard ever bow to is the Phoenix King, the Chosen of Asuryan, which would heavily imply Finubar is actually dead, hence him not leaving his tower. That, or Finubar has been corrupted and Tyrion has been designated as Asuryan's Chosen One. Whether this is because Tyrion will be the one to lead the High Elves as the Phoenix King - he does not perform the ritual of stepping into the fire, however - or because Asuryan recognizes that Tyrion is the last true hope for the Elves is unclear. Regardless, it is very interesting and I am sure that this "secret" of the Elves will eventually come to light. As to what it is, I am guessing that either the Elves inside the Great Vortex are actually still alive or that Aernarion himself never actually died. The thing that gets me is that - as far as I am aware - a new Phoenix King can only be elected if the old one is dead, regardless of whether the current one is "unworthy" or whatever, as evidenced by the idiotic Caledor who started the War of the Beard because of his arrogance. This is why I don't think the "Malekith is the real Phoenix King" theory holds light, especially as the background is pretty clear that the flames burned him rather than accept him, while it would also suggest Aenarion is as dead as dead can be. I am very curious as to what the secret is though....I have a sneaking suspicion it is related to the Great Vortex but we will see.

Just my thoughts, but I think it is pretty obvious that if anyone is going to draw the Widowmaker, it will be Tyrion. It is pretty heavily implied that is what Teclis and the secret voice are manipulating him for, as I don't think Aliathra's sacrifice was purely just so that Nagash couldn't claim full power over Shyish. I just can't see anyone but Aenarion Reborn being the one to draw the Widowmaker, especially as both his wife and daughter are likely going to die and he is already suffering from the madness.

[Mr Mystery]

I still reckon it will be Tullaris that draws the Widowmaker. He is said to be Khaine's Chosen after all - something newly added to his background as far as I'm aware.

Man I am loving this! Don't think I've ever debated and discussed backgrounds for Warhammer so much!

[eldargal]

See I disagree, I think the teasing tone of Teclis conspirator is far more in keeping with what we know of Morathi's personality than Malekith. I also can't imagine him conspiring with the elf who cast him into the Realm of Chaos.

I also really, really hope GW don't do something so abysmally cliche and boring as kill off Alarielle just for Tyrions manpain. I do agree it will probably be Tyrion who takes up Widowmaker though. I also don't think it is heavily hinted that Alarielle will die, I think it is just stated that it is very dangerous.

[Mr Mystery]

Nature Goddess in the offing remains my bet.

And yeah - it's definitely Morathi. She knows she can't seduce Teclis, so hasn't bothered with the pleasantries. She's an arch-manipulator attempting to work with the one mind she knows might be as alert as her own - so just deal straight.

[Learn2Eel]

I still reckon it will be Tullaris that draws the Widowmaker. He is said to be Khaine's Chosen after all - something newly added to his background as far as I'm aware.

Man I am loving this! Don't think I've ever debated and discussed backgrounds for Warhammer so much!

I'm pretty sure he has always been described as Khaine's Chosen, but remember that such a title has never had a bearing on who drew the Widowmaker. Aenarion was Asuryan's Chosen, not Khaine's.


See I disagree, I think the teasing tone of Teclis conspirator is far more in keeping with what we know of Morathi's personality than Malekith. I also can't imagine him conspiring with the elf who cast him into the Realm of Chaos.

I also really, really hope GW don't do something so abysmally cliche and boring as kill off Alarielle just for Tyrions manpain. I do agree it will probably be Tyrion who takes up Widowmaker though. I also don't think it is heavily hinted that Alarielle will die, I think it is just stated that it is very dangerous.

Well see that is why I think both people are very good suspects, it is one or the other. The thing that gets me though is that I can't see Morathi referring to Tyrion in such a condescending manner when it is explicitly stated she is absolutely stricken with him - she fully believes he is Aenarion saddled with the wrong personality/mind. The playful nature does fit, but the motivations also make a little more sense for it to be Malekith. If I am right and they are trying to influence Tyrion to draw the Widowmaker, I can't imagine Morathi would really want that. Sure, he might fully become Aenarion Reborn then, but it won't last long as she is no doubt aware. Malekith, on the other hand, would be able to sit back and watch Tyrion do the dirty work, die, then take Tyrion's place and become the King of all Elves, blessed by Asuryan or not. It is a very good debate though and there probably won't be a clear answer until the Elf book comes along.

Now that I think about it in regards to Alarielle, Aenarion's first wife perished as did his children to her (so he believed, though it wasn't the truth) which allowed Morathi to enter the fray with her seductions and manipulation. It was grief that drove Aenarion to draw the Widowmaker, not rage or anything else. There is also the matter of what Aliathra did to Arkhan the Black. It could very well be a case of history repeating itself where one of Tyrion's loved ones - Aliathra, like Aenarion's wife - perishes, but another survives unbeknownst to him - Alarielle in Tyrion's case, the children in Aenarion's case. I would think that if Ariel is succumbing to whatever is poisoning the Elder Tree and causing Durthu to act with logic rather than rage, the Everqueen may very well do so as well.


Nature Goddess in the offing remains my bet.

And yeah - it's definitely Morathi. She knows she can't seduce Teclis, so hasn't bothered with the pleasantries. She's an arch-manipulator attempting to work with the one mind she knows might be as alert as her own - so just deal straight.

You think Alarielle and Ariel are going to "combine"? I'm not sure what you mean. Ariel is the living incarnation of Isha, whereas Alarielle is the equivalent of her High Priestess. I guess there is always the possibility of the two joining their spirits to summon Isha herself in the world, but I don't think such a thing is possible - there is no precedent to say either way, of course.

That does make sense, but it also raises the question - what was Malekith doing while Naggaroth was burning? It is mentioned that he "disappeared for a time", then returned on the eve of the Dark Elves annihilation with "rusted, bloodied gauntlets". I just wonder what is the go there and what he was doing?

[Mr Mystery]

It's Malekith - probs best not to ask :p

It also explains what Morathi has been up to, sequestered away wherever she is (not sure it's actually stated!).

Then there's the flavour text right at the beginning of the book amongst the prophecies. About the mirror between Light and Dark shattering, referring to the Elves. Aerial and Alarielle 'combining' makes a certain amount of sense. The Stick Pixies tread both paths to some extent, something brought to the fore in their brilliant new book. Rather than just being tree hugging hippies, they're now Elves as they once were, but without the extremes of the past, other than isolationism.

I'm also interested to find out what affect, if any, Nagash ripping a wind of magic out of the Vortex might have. Does it lessen the pressure, allowing the Vortex to work better, or has it mucked up the balance of power, throwing it into a wobble?

[Mr Mystery]

Just been nosing on Waterstones, as I want to grab copies of Skarsnik and Headtaker (I've been re-reading and thoroughly enjoying the Warhammer Heroes books!).

And I note that Gotrek and Felix - Slayer is due for release in April next year.

I reckon this will coincide with another End Times book. Thoughts?

[Brakkart]

Just been nosing on Waterstones, as I want to grab copies of Skarsnik and Headtaker (I've been re-reading and thoroughly enjoying the Warhammer Heroes books!).

And I note that Gotrek and Felix - Slayer is due for release in April next year.

I reckon this will coincide with another End Times book. Thoughts?

Well the four books we've been told about for the End Times series are in August, October, January and March so having Slayer come out at the start of April after book 4 comes a week earlier say at the end of March would fit the same 1 week later release pattern for End Times: Nagash and the recent Kinslayer G&F book.

[Mr Mystery]

Fair point!

So, never mind who draws the Sword of Khaine - who is going to get it inserted up their jackanory is what I want to know!

[White Tiger88]

There's not a great deal about the Elves in this volume to be honest. Pretty much everyone is touched on (and not in a 70's Celebrity kind of way), but Elves don't get much fleshing out. I reckon they'll be busy enough to get their own volume.

Malekith starts off a most unhappy bunny. Valkia The Bloody is leading an invasion of Naggaroth, and is doing really rather well for herself.

Malekith postpones his invasion of Ulthuan, even apologising the noble meant to lead that assault, and draws up plans. Darkblade is sent off to make sure Morathi is safe and well.

And to be honest, that's about it for now! Stay tuned though, as we've definitely not heard the last of these (especially as it's revealed Teclis is conspiring with Morathi for some reason, about something!)

Well i hope Darkblade gets some sort of lovely new toys he has always been one of my favorite two Characters.....(The other being Alith Anar who will be having a blast with this....)

[Mr Mystery]

I'm hoping the Elves have something spectacular happen, with lots of possible fallout for us to resolve on the field of battle. Like it should be. With the pansy Asur being crushed by Druchii wrath!

[White Tiger88]

I'm hoping the Elves have something spectacular happen, with lots of possible fallout for us to resolve on the field of battle. Like it should be. With the pansy Asur being crushed by Druchii wrath!

Oh don't worry Alith will kill Malekith at some point and go "WHO'S KING NOW *****!"

[flipchuck]

As you might have guessed, I'm an Empire player (or collector...since I haven't had a game in awhile....) And I'm just wandering about the offical info of what is happening in the Empire right now with the End of Times storyline...

[Wildeybeast]

SPOILERS



It got smashed. Elector counts dropping like flies (at least two dead). KF got pummelled and fell off Deathclaw but is still alive. Vlad vin Carstein manipulated Balthasar Gelt into turning to necromancy whilst the Trickster nearly had him kill Valten, who is back and being shiny haired Chosen One.

[Mr Mystery]

Yup. But this time, Valten is being hailed as the Herald of Sigmar, rather than Sigmar reincarnated.

Read into that what you will!

[White Tiger88]

SPOILERS



It got smashed. Elector counts dropping like flies (at least two dead). KF got pummelled and fell off Deathclaw but is still alive. Vlad vin Carstein manipulated Balthasar Gelt into turning to necromancy whilst the Trickster nearly had him kill Valten, who is back and being shiny haired Chosen One.

So there even more boned for the elves?

[Mr Mystery]

I've got a funny feeling the Elves are in for a kicking all their own.

Really, really interested to find out what impact Nagash fiddling with the Vortex had, if indeed any.