Knight Castigator and House Terryn plates.

[Mr Mystery]

Now available for pre-order from Forgeworld.

Knight Castigator - £170 (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff/CERASTUS_KNIGHT_CASTIGATOR.html)

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Images/Product/DefaultFW/xlarge/cerastus-knight-castigator.jpg


Armed with the fearsome Castigator pattern bolt cannon, the Cerastus Knight-Castigator is favoured by those households faced with hordes of lesser foes that might otherwise overwhelm even a mighty Knight through sheer numbers. Capable of obliterating infantry formations in a thunderous rain of mass-reactive explosions and whirling power blade, or carving apart light vehicles with ease, the Castigator is a formidable opponent.

The Cerastus Knight-Castigator is a complete multi-part resin kit, designed by Daren Parrwood. We hope to have rules for using the Castigator in games of Warhammer 40,000 on the Forge World website in the coming weeks.

So no rules yet. Poopy!

House Terryn upgrade kit - £16 (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff/HOUSE_TERRYN_UPGRADE_KIT.html)

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Images/Product/DefaultFW/xlarge/house-terryn-acc-bw.jpg


The Knights of House Terryn are amongst the most warlike in the galaxy. Renowned for their victories against the enemies of Mankind on distant battlefields, in recent years the dual threats of Hive Fleet Leviathan and the rapidly expanding Tau Empire have forced them to fight ever closer to their home world Voltoris as the shadows of war close over the Imperium.

The House Terryn Upgrade Kit is a multi-part resin kit for upgrading the plastic Imperial Knight. Designed by Keith Robertson, this kit features the livery of House Terryn upon two shoulder pads, a chest plate, hatch, tilting plate and banner.

Lovely stuff!

[energongoodie]

I really like this fella. I'd like to see rules before I splash £170 though :)

I think a knight army would be great to have but I don't have the money and I don't know how people would feel about playing it?

[Mr Mystery]

No idea.

I feel it's one of those armies you should give your opponent a heads up about first at the very least.

- - - Updated - - -

And looks like it's not about to run out of ammo in a hurry!

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Images/Product/AlternativeFW/xlarge/cerastus-knight-castigator4.-zjpg.jpg

[Wolfshade]

That is very pretty,

[The Emperor]

So there haven't been any leaks of the rules for this model anywhere?

[Mr.Pickelz]

The Cerastus Knight-Castigator is a complete multi-part resin kit, designed by Daren Parrwood. We hope to have rules for using the Castigator in games of Warhammer 40,000 on the Forge World website in the coming weeks.

This is from Forgeworld's page.

[The Emperor]

Sure, but I was asking about leaks. The Knight Lancer's rules were leaked before Forge World posted the rules on their website. It'd certainly be nice to at least know how many points it'll be in order to start figuring out how it'll fit it into an existing force.

[DWest]

I think there haven't been any leaks yet because they haven't *written* the rules yet. It's entirely possible the model got finished first.

[Kirsten]

the rules are like done, it will be like the lancer with different gear. all it needs is the bolt cannon rules, sword will likely just be a destroyer melee weapon.

[Brakkart]

It has 40k rules now, you can read them here:

Cerastus Knight Castigator Rules (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk//Downloads/Product/PDF/C/Castigator.pdf)

[Mr Mystery]

It has 40k rules now, you can read them here:

Cerastus Knight Castigator Rules (http://www.forgeworld.co.uk//Downloads/Product/PDF/C/Castigator.pdf)

That's saucy! I think I might do an Knight army after all! At some point. When I have the money.

[George Labour]

Now the question is, can it delflagarate after a tempest attack? Pretty sure it can't, but those two rules seem tailor made to work together in its role as a devastator of hordes.

[DWest]

Tempest Attack says "using the weapon's listed profile". Deflagrate is part of the melee weapon's profile, so yeah, slice and boom.

[Cleon]

Tempest Attack says "using the weapon's listed profile". Deflagrate is part of the melee weapon's profile, so yeah, slice and boom.

Sorry, but I disagree completely.

Just to take the first sentence from each rule it seems clear to me they don't stack.

"Tempest Attack: Rather than attacking normally..."

"Deflagrate: After normal attacks by this weapon have been resolved..."

Deflagrate works on Normal attacks, a Tempest attack is clearly an alternative to normal attacks.

[DWest]

Except, you're deliberately ignoring the part where it says "use the weapon's listed profile". Each model in base contact is assigned a hit from the Tempest Warblade. The Tempest Warblade causes Deflagrate. So the Tempest Attack causes Deflagrate. Roll to Wound, then roll Wounds from Deflagrate.

[George Labour]

Gotta kind of go with DWest on that one.

[Havik110]

I ordered one (prior to rules) to go against my father in law's lancer...now I need a new one as this one is for hordes :(

actually don't care that I need a new one :P

[The Emperor]

Except, you're deliberately ignoring the part where it says "use the weapon's listed profile". Each model in base contact is assigned a hit from the Tempest Warblade. The Tempest Warblade causes Deflagrate. So the Tempest Attack causes Deflagrate. Roll to Wound, then roll Wounds from Deflagrate.

...which brings us right back to what it says in the Deflagrate entry. "After normal attacks by this weapon have been resolved...". That ability only activates when you've made a normal attack. Tempest Attack, however, is specifically called out as not being a normal attack. So yeah, he's not deliberately ignoring the part where it says to use the weapon's listed profile. He's using it. And according to that, Deflagrate is an ability which wouldn't activate when making a Tempest Attack.

[DWest]

...which brings us right back to what it says in the Deflagrate entry. "After normal attacks by this weapon have been resolved...". That ability only activates when you've made a normal attack. Tempest Attack, however, is specifically called out as not being a normal attack. So yeah, he's not deliberately ignoring the part where it says to use the weapon's listed profile. He's using it. And according to that, Deflagrate is an ability which wouldn't activate when making a Tempest Attack.
Except, the "normal attacks" under Deflagrate are simply the original, triggering attacks. Deflagrate counts as a new attack, albeit one that automatically hits. The two instances of "normal" are not equivalent. Compare Hammer of Wrath, which specifically states the model makes "one additional Attack . . . resolved at the model's base Strength with AP-. This Attack does not benefit from any of the model's special rules". Tempest Attack says use the weapon's profile, so the weapon's profile is used, all of it, including Deflagrate.

[Gir]

Except, the "normal attacks" under Deflagrate are simply the original, triggering attacks. Deflagrate counts as a new attack, albeit one that automatically hits. The two instances of "normal" are not equivalent. Compare Hammer of Wrath, which specifically states the model makes "one additional Attack . . . resolved at the model's base Strength with AP-. This Attack does not benefit from any of the model's special rules". Tempest Attack says use the weapon's profile, so the weapon's profile is used, all of it, including Deflagrate.

What are you talking about? It clearly says that Tempest Attack is taken instead of normal attacks, and Deflagrate only works on unsaved wounds caused by normal attacks.

Or if you want a complicated word play version: Deflagrate happens after normal attacks are resolved (which is I4 step). At this point there would be no wounds inflicted for Deflagrate to work with, so nothing happens. You then do Tempest Attack at I2, but you don't do Deflagrate, as that happened with normal attacks (Deflagrate is called out as not a normal attack).

[The Emperor]

What are you talking about? It clearly says that Tempest Attack is taken instead of normal attacks, and Deflagrate only works on unsaved wounds caused by normal attacks.

Or if you want a complicated word play version: Deflagrate happens after normal attacks are resolved (which is I4 step). At this point there would be no wounds inflicted for Deflagrate to work with, so nothing happens. You then do Tempest Attack at I2, but you don't do Deflagrate, as that happened with normal attacks (Deflagrate is called out as not a normal attack).

Exactly. Deflagrate is triggered by normal attacks, but when you make a Tempest Attack you're not making normal attacks, as it's specifically called out as not being a normal attack. It's the very first sentence under Tempest Attack. "Rather than attacking normally..." There's a reason that rule is worded in that way, while Deflagrate includes the wording "After normal attacks...". Both abilities aren't intended to be used together. The only way to activate Deflagrate is to make your 4 regular Attacks at Initiative 4.

[DWest]

So what you're trying to say is if the Knight should charge through difficult terrain, it no longer gets to use Deflagrate, as we're no longer attacking at I4? That's ridiculous and you know it. Here's an easy test: Replace the word "normal" in the Deflagrate rule with "initial". Does the wording still make sense? The answer is yes, which means the word "normal" doesn't need to be there.

Again, the fact that Tempest Attack says "use the weapon's profile" is another clear indicator that Deflagrate is activated. Any time a model is given a special attack that doesn't use their weapon abilities (see Hammer of Wrath and Gabriel Seth's special ability for examples), it specifically indicates "do not use the weapon profile or model special rules, only this base profile".

[Gir]

So what you're trying to say is if the Knight should charge through difficult terrain, it no longer gets to use Deflagrate, as we're no longer attacking at I4?

Super-heavies have Move Through Cover, so it's still at I4.

[DWest]

Super-heavies have Move Through Cover, so it's still at I4.
Incorrect. Under "Charging Through Difficult Terrain" in the Assault Phase section:
"if at least one model in the unit moved through difficult terrain as part of its charge move, all of the unit's models must attack at Initiative 1, regardless of other modifiers, even if the charging unit is not slowed by difficult terrain."

Neither the Move Through Cover rule nor the Super-Heavy Walker rules have any text saying they ignore this Initiative penalty.

[Gir]

Incorrect. Under "Charging Through Difficult Terrain" in the Assault Phase section:
"if at least one model in the unit moved through difficult terrain as part of its charge move, all of the unit's models must attack at Initiative 1, regardless of other modifiers, even if the charging unit is not slowed by difficult terrain."

Neither the Move Through Cover rule nor the Super-Heavy Walker rules have any text saying they ignore this Initiative penalty.

Okay.

It still doesn't change that Deflagrate only works with normal attacks, and Tempest Attack is explicitly stated as not being a normal attack. Not sure how you're having so much trouble with this.

[DWest]

Because that's how it works. There is no way you can take an order-of-operations indicator which is what the word "normal" means in the Deflagrate rules and stretch it to be some sort of restriction.

[Gir]

Because that's how it works. There is no way you can take an order-of-operations indicator which is what the word "normal" means in the Deflagrate rules and stretch it to be some sort of restriction.

You can, because the wording defines normal attacks as ones made using normal combat rules, and defines Tempest Attacks as not normal.

It doesn't matter that tempest attacks calls Deflagrate, because the first you do when deflagrate is invoked is check for normal attack, which Tempest fails, so you skip the rest of the text.

[DWest]

Your interpretation is still incorrect, because you're not using normal correctly. It is only there for order of operations: Attack > Wound > Save, then Deflagrate. That is the only thing "normal" refers to in the Deflagrate rules.

[The Emperor]

Your interpretation is still incorrect, because you're not using normal correctly. It is only there for order of operations: Attack > Wound > Save, then Deflagrate. That is the only thing "normal" refers to in the Deflagrate rules.

That's an incorrect interpretation of the rules. Deflagrate keys off of normal attacks. Tempest Attack specifically states that it's done in place of a normal attack. Therefore it doesn't meet the "after normal attacks" requirement necessary to activate Deflagrate. It's pretty simple.

[DWest]

No, you're still wrong. That is not how the wording of Deflagrate works, and repeating the wrong interpretation won't make it right no matter how many times you say it.

[Gir]

No, you're still wrong. That is not how the wording of Deflagrate works, and repeating the wrong interpretation won't make it right no matter how many times you say it.

This comment goes both ways.

[The Emperor]

Let's put it another way: If that's not how it works, then why specify "normal" attack under both Deflagrate and Tempest Attack? If your reading were correct, then there's no reason whatsoever to put "normal" in there, because there's no limit to when Deflagrate can be used. It's obviously there because it's telling you that there are attacks when it can't be used, specifically attacks which aren't considered "normal", and then Tempest Attack tells you that it's not a "normal" attack. There's no other logical reading of those two bits, and I'm frankly flabbergasted that anyone would argue otherwise.

[Houghten]

Because Deflagrate was written first and copy-pasted from Betrayal, and Forge World don't have a great track record of considering how old and new interact.

When Deflagrate says "normal" it means "attacks that aren't the extra hits caused by Deflagrate."

[Gir]

Because Deflagrate was written first and copy-pasted from Betrayal, and Forge World don't have a great track record of considering how old and new interact.

When Deflagrate says "normal" it means "attacks that aren't the extra hits caused by Deflagrate."

I would argue it doesn't, as it also specifically mentions the extra don't further generate more hits.

[DWest]

Well, don't take my word for it, here's Forgeworld's opinion:

Hi <redacted>,

That's absolutely correct. Hope that helps!


If there is anything further we can do to assist you, or if you have any queries about the information we have requested or provided, please telephone us.

Regards,
Forge World

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On 24 September 2014 06:01, <redacted> <[email protected]> wrote:

A question about the Castigator's Tempest Sword; when making a Tempest Attack, it says "use the weapon's profile", so would that include the Deflagrate and Sunder effects?

[Gir]

No one was saying you don't use the deflatrate rule, just that it doesn't trigger most of the text. Your question doesn't actually answer anything. It's a fundamentally different question to "do Tempest Attacks generate extra hits from Deflagrate?"

[DWest]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1xs_xPb46M

[Gir]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y1xs_xPb46M

It triggers the Deflagrate rule, the rule then fails the first condition "normal attacks" and skips the effect. I've never denied the rule triggers, just that the extra hit effect doesn't because of the first condition of the rule.

[DWest]

That didn't answer my question. Go re-read the email from Forgeworld: It specifies that the Deflagrate effect triggers, i.e. the additional attacks. Your interpretation is not correct and will continue to be incorrect until or unless Forgeworld changes how Tempest Attack or Deflagrate works.

[Gir]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L8eRzOYhLuw

[DeSteele]

[quote removed by mod]

Hope this answer from Forgeworld helps

The Tempest attack states that you use the weapons profile to carry out the attacks, this includes the special rules for the weapon as well including Deflagrate. The Deflagrate rules that are shown in the Castigators rules profile are a cut and paste from the Horus Heresy books which were written before the Castigator rules. When they refer to 'after normal attacks' this just means after any other attacks from the weapon have been performed.


If there is anything further we can do to assist you, or if you have any queries about the information we have requested or provided, please telephone us.

Regards,
Forge World

My Question was

Hello,

I have a quetion re how the rules below are intended to work.

From what I have been reading there is a bit of a debate about this online :-)

-----------------------------------
Rules extracted from the latest pdf

Deflagrate:After normal attacks by this weapon have been
resolved, count the number of unsaved wounds caused on
the target unit. Immediately resolve a number of additional
automatic hits on the same unit using the weapon’s profile
equal to the number of unsaved wounds – these can then be
saved normally. Models in the targeted unit must still be in
range in order for these additional hits to take effect. These
additional hits do not themselves inflict more hits!

Tempest Attack:Rather than attacking normally, the
Knight may make a special attack at Initiative Step 2. This
automatically inflicts a single hit against each model in base
contact with it using the weapon’s listed profile.

------------------------------

As far as I understand it the argument goes

Argument 1 - If you are using a Tempest attack you are not

attacking 'Normally' (as the Tempest rule itself states) so

Deflagrate does not apply as the Deflagrate rule states it

takes place after 'normal' attacks.

Argument 2 - If you are using a Tempest attack it says

you use the Weapons listed profile. Weapons profile

says Deflagrate so the deflagrate rule applies to unsaved

wounds caused by Tempest attack.

Can you confirm which argument is correct? If either is.

All the best

Me

So then replacing the phrase "normal attacks" in the Deflagrate rule with what Forge World says it means we get

Deflagrate:After any other attacks from the weapon have been
resolved, count the number of unsaved wounds caused on
the target unit. Immediately resolve a number of additional
automatic hits on the same unit using the weapon’s profile
equal to the number of unsaved wounds – these can then be
saved normally. Models in the targeted unit must still be in
range in order for these additional hits to take effect. These
additional hits do not themselves inflict more hits!

[Houghten]

The Deflagrate rules that are shown in the Castigators rules profile are a cut and paste from the Horus Heresy books which were written before the Castigator rules.

Gee, who would have thought it...


Because Deflagrate was written first and copy-pasted from Betrayal

Oh, right. Me! :D