Wall of Martyrs and Allies

[JMichael]

I have an unbound Space Marine and Eldar list.
Im adding the Wall of Martyrs Vengeance Weapon battery and am wondering if it actually has a faction? Since I'm unbound I am not taking the Weapon Battery as part of my Imperial Primary Detachment.

My question is can my Eldar Farseer cast powers on the Weapon Battery (as Eldar and Imperial are Allies of Convenience)? If it doesn't have an actual faction then it seems like the answer would be yes.

If my Eldar claimed an enemy Firestorm Redoubt, wouldn't I also then be able to cast my mystical Eldar powers on the emplaced weapons?

[JMichael]

Still curious about this, though I have decided to just take an Inquisitor instead. I'm looking at giving my Weapon Battery's Punisher Gatling cannon Prescience (re-roll To Hit).
With a Farseer, I would be doing Guide on the same model.

[Demonus]

That's a good question. I would allow it, but not positive if there is an actual rule preventing you from doing so.

[John Bower]

Interesting conundrum; since technically it starts as whoever it was purchased for but as you say it's an unbound list so that would depend on which 'faction' you purchased it for. If you bought it for the Imperials then no the farseer can't prescience it. However; you could if you wanted buy it for the Eldar faction and then you have the ability to do so. A building in and of itself has no faction except the one it was bought for.

[JMichael]

Interesting conundrum; since technically it starts as whoever it was purchased for but as you say it's an unbound list so that would depend on which 'faction' you purchased it for. If you bought it for the Imperials then no the farseer can't prescience it. However; you could if you wanted buy it for the Eldar faction and then you have the ability to do so. A building in and of itself has no faction except the one it was bought for.

The wording for claiming a building is interesting.
p112 At the start of the game all buildings that were taken as part of a player's army are 'claimed' by the owning player.
A claimed building is a unit in the controlling player's army.

No specific mention of faction or detachment.
p118 also mentions that there is no limit to the number of detachments in your army. Suggesting that really everything you bring to battle is considered 'your army' and thus should be able to be claimed by all detachments regardless of faction.


So for argument's sake lets take the following situation, Battle-Forged army:
Space Marine Primary Detachment
Eldar Ally Detachment
Firestorm Redoubt Fortification (2 emplaced weapons and has access points=can be claimed by anyone). Bought as part of the Primary Detachment

I occupy/claim the Fortification with my Space Marines. I see RAI that it now is claimed by my 'Army' (not faction, or even detachment).
Since my army has claimed it, regardless of what faction occupies it my Eldar Farseer should be able to cast the Eldar psychic power, Guide on one of the emplaced weapons.
Though he could not cast it on the Space Marines themselves.

I guess the better question is does a fortification count as a friendly model to all factions in the army that claimed it (again army vs faction/detachment)?

[John Bower]

The wording for claiming a building is interesting.
p112 At the start of the game all buildings that were taken as part of a player's army are 'claimed' by the owning player.
A claimed building is a unit in the controlling player's army.

No specific mention of faction or detachment.
p118 also mentions that there is no limit to the number of detachments in your army. Suggesting that really everything you bring to battle is considered 'your army' and thus should be able to be claimed by all detachments regardless of faction.


So for argument's sake lets take the following situation, Battle-Forged army:
Space Marine Primary Detachment
Eldar Ally Detachment
Firestorm Redoubt Fortification (2 emplaced weapons and has access points=can be claimed by anyone). Bought as part of the Primary Detachment

I occupy/claim the Fortification with my Space Marines. I see RAI that it now is claimed by my 'Army' (not faction, or even detachment).
Since my army has claimed it, regardless of what faction occupies it my Eldar Farseer should be able to cast the Eldar psychic power, Guide on one of the emplaced weapons.
Though he could not cast it on the Space Marines themselves.

I guess the better question is does a fortification count as a friendly model to all factions in the army that claimed it (again army vs faction/detachment)?

Which then is your answer... I don't have my SA book to hand at the moment but I'll take your word for that since we both stand to learn from it anyway. :) But on the flip side, remember that you can't 'occupy' a VWB; it is an impassable building with no battlements. that said; it would still have 'no faction'. Hmm, interesting. I'd like an FAQ on that but my guess is then that yes; you could cast what powers you like on it from whichever faction you like. Alternatively if you're using an 'unbound' army; then you have no factions so it belongs to 'your army' as a whole anyway. :)

[JMichael]

So now looking at the definition of 'friendly models' on p14 of the rulebook.
All models on the same side are Friendly models. This is obviously slightly altered per allies, but also on p118 under 'Factions' (1st paragraph, last sentence) it does specifically state that Fortifications are an exception, and unless stated on their datasheet do not have a faction.

I do not yet have the Vengeance Weapon Battery (am picking it up this weekend), but in Stronhold Assault I don't see any factions listed.
Even the Imperial Bastion, and Imperial Strongpoint do not list any specific faction. Of course this would thankfully allow Chaos players to modify and use it as well.

So based on that I would assume that a Fortification without a faction is considered friendly to all models in my army or on my side. Thus any and all psykers could cast powers.
Seems like in my example I could even have a SM Librarian and my Farseer both cast on the same emplaced weapon in the same turn.

[JMichael]

I think I have answered my question!
But then another pops up.
Quad Icarus Lascannon emplaced weapon on the Vengeance Weapon Battery has Sentry Defense System (rulebook p112), Skyfire and Interceptor.
So with Skyfire, it gets full BS of 2 vs Flyers, but can only snap shot at non-Flyers.
Sentry Defense System grants it Automated fire (also p112) which states is must fire at the closest enemy unit within range and LoS.

This suggests that my nice AA Icarus lascannons must fire at ground targets if they are closer than a Flyer?

But to add to the confusion in Stronghold Assault the rules for the Firestorm Redoubt, which comes with two Quad Icarus Lascannons adds a 'Primary Target' rule: Emplaced weapons on the Firestorm Redoubt with Skyfire must fire at the nearest Flyer or FMC in range and LoS. If none, then must fire at nearest enemy unit.
Though it specifically spells out the Firestorm Redoubt :(

So how do/would you play it on the Vengeance Weapon batter? Does the Quad Icarus lascannon have to shoot at the closest enemy, Flyer or not?

[John Bower]

I think I have answered my question!
But then another pops up.
Quad Icarus Lascannon emplaced weapon on the Vengeance Weapon Battery has Sentry Defense System (rulebook p112), Skyfire and Interceptor.
So with Skyfire, it gets full BS of 2 vs Flyers, but can only snap shot at non-Flyers.
Sentry Defense System grants it Automated fire (also p112) which states is must fire at the closest enemy unit within range and LoS.

This suggests that my nice AA Icarus lascannons must fire at ground targets if they are closer than a Flyer?

But to add to the confusion in Stronghold Assault the rules for the Firestorm Redoubt, which comes with two Quad Icarus Lascannons adds a 'Primary Target' rule: Emplaced weapons on the Firestorm Redoubt with Skyfire must fire at the nearest Flyer or FMC in range and LoS. If none, then must fire at nearest enemy unit.
Though it specifically spells out the Firestorm Redoubt :(

So how do/would you play it on the Vengeance Weapon batter? Does the Quad Icarus lascannon have to shoot at the closest enemy, Flyer or not?

I personally play it that any automated weapon with skyfire goes after flyers first then any other target. Sort of like a computer 'if then else' statement. IF 'flyer' in range THEN target 'flyer', ELSE target nearest unit.

[John Bower]

Okay; thinking on this I looked it up last night; read it and re-read it. The rule you're referring to 'only' pertains to the Firestorm Redoubt not the guns on it. The Icarus Quad Lascannons are a separate entity if placed elsewhere. Just like a normal quad gun or Icarus Lascannon. It's the Firestorm Redoubt that is 'anti-air' specifically. That's why I said I'd play it that way; for me it had never come up as while I'd used the normal Quad gun or Icarus lascannon on a Firestorm I'd never removed the Quad IL's to put elsewhere.

so I guess unfortunately yes, they have to fire at the 'closest' target irrespective of it's priority. The answer to this is don't stick them on the turrets; just leave them on the FR where they can be more use and leave a Punisher or Battlecannon on the turrets.

[JMichael]

Okay; thinking on this I looked it up last night; read it and re-read it. The rule you're referring to 'only' pertains to the Firestorm Redoubt not the guns on it. The Icarus Quad Lascannons are a separate entity if placed elsewhere. Just like a normal quad gun or Icarus Lascannon. It's the Firestorm Redoubt that is 'anti-air' specifically. That's why I said I'd play it that way; for me it had never come up as while I'd used the normal Quad gun or Icarus lascannon on a Firestorm I'd never removed the Quad IL's to put elsewhere.

so I guess unfortunately yes, they have to fire at the 'closest' target irrespective of it's priority. The answer to this is don't stick them on the turrets; just leave them on the FR where they can be more use and leave a Punisher or Battlecannon on the turrets.

After I actually bought the Vengeance weapon batteries I noticed that the Dataslate included in their box doesn't even have the Quad-Icarus listed as an option, though it is in Stronghold Assault.

[John Bower]

After I actually bought the Vengeance weapon batteries I noticed that the Dataslate included in their box doesn't even have the Quad-Icarus listed as an option, though it is in Stronghold Assault.

I think that was because it came out for Apocalypse which came out before SA. Then SA gave us really good rules for buildings; then the tourney crowd cried about how hard to kill they were; then they got changed to be paper thin. :(

I wouldn't have minded the whole Hull Points bit if they had only been affected by Pens still and not glances.

[JMichael]

I think that was because it came out for Apocalypse which came out before SA. Then SA gave us really good rules for buildings; then the tourney crowd cried about how hard to kill they were; then they got changed to be paper thin. :(

I wouldn't have minded the whole Hull Points bit if they had only been affected by Pens still and not glances.

When did they get changed to be 'paper thin'?
I still see the Weapon Battery, for example, as AV14 with 3 HP (small building-rulebook).

[John Bower]

When did they get changed to be 'paper thin'?
I still see the Weapon Battery, for example, as AV14 with 3 HP (small building-rulebook).

Yes but you only need 3 glancing hits now to wipe it out. Before you would have needed at least a pen. Under the old rules only a pen hit would've damaged a building and maybe - only maybe, blown it up or collapsed it. That's what I mean by paper thin; and if you're inside you suffer worse than if the same 'explodes' happened to a vehicle. at least that would only be a few S4 hits; a building is S6 so more of the unit will take wounds and you'll lose more of them.

To me a building with it's very nature should be much harder to kill than a tank; they're built for it. Just see history and see how hard a bunker was to destroy even from a battleship. In fact the now famous 'bunker buster' had to be developed for the purpose. And that's just concrete; imagine the kind of material used in the 41st millennium. Yet in game they are as easy to destroy as your average Leman Russ (easier in some cases as a Dozer blade makes a Russ AV15 Front armour).