Vanguard Veteran heroic intervention and independent characters

[tabyrd]

Like most unit entries, you get a general idea of how you think it's worded and what it means and it's not until you come up with some other things you never thought of do you realize you've misinterpreted the restriction. I think by the wording it's no longer valid, but here's what I was thinking.

Vanguard veterans with jump packs can do a heroic intervention (assault the turn they deepstrike in if close enough with no running/shooting allowed)

They lose this ability if joined by an independent character.

Now when I first read this rule, I just assumed that oh, ok, you can't heroically intervene if you have a jumppack equipped character attached to the unit when you deepstrike in.

What happens, however, if you:
1) deepstrike your vanguards onto the board and declare a heroic intervention as normal. (It's very clear on stating you have to declare before you deepstrike and if you want to assault, you forfeit any shooting/running)
2) move a character up within 2" of the squad after they deepstrike.

Technically, you've attached a character by being with 2", does that null and void the heroic intervention or do they still get to get it off? The thinking here would be to get a chaplain or Khan in there to boost the veterans initial charge bonuses. Can they do it or are they out by the no independent character rule?

[gcsmith]

You have to declare to join the squad not just be within 2"

[tabyrd]

Actually, if you end your movement phase within 2", you AUTOMATICALLY join the squad. It's pretty clear. You only 'declare' if you are within 2" of more than one unit, then you are forced to declare which unit the IC joins. It even goes so far to point out that if you can't or don't want to join, you must move your IC outside of 2". Pg 48 of BRB.

[Fellend]

That's a really interesting question...

[gcsmith]

hmm id say they can charge since both units can charge and so therefore the intervention can take place

[tabyrd]

Obviously I like this answer! I can also see the RAI vs RAW arguement. I certainly see the intent (careful danger zone here!) of saying heroic intervention is not passed on to any joe smo character joining the unit. However the way they word the rule, this ability is lost (blah blah) if joined by an independent character. It doesn't specify in there WHEN the unit is joined, just that if it is, they can't use it. Does the I'm on the ground it have 'used' it already nullify that? It's not like this is the main tactic as trying to purposefully deepstrike within 6" with an expensive vanguard squad without some sort of deepstrike aid is risky at best. Thanks for the input.

[Duke]

Though I don't have the codex, or the rulebook in front of me I am tempted to agree with you... But even so it is still very situational. Ill have to go home and read up on this.

Duke

[Jwolf]

At the time the charge is declared, the unit cannot legally charge, as the Heroic Intervention ability is lost when the squad is joined by an IC. This loss has no exceptions and would definitely apply to the case in question.

[Mobious]

I would say that since the Heroic Intervention must be declared before the deep strike actually occurs (scatter dice), the ability is not lost unless they arrive with a character.

The rule states, "The ability cannot be used if an Independent Character has joined the Vanguard Veteran squad."

So you only lose the ability if a character "has joined", not if a character joins after the ability has been used. Just the way I see it at least. You do not use the ability in the assault phase, you use it before you deep strike.

[Caldera02]

Although I do not agree with Wolf's interpretation of the rule, as I can see an argument to use the Heroic intervention and IC joining the unit afterwords. I do, however feel that the intent was to prevent that vanguard unit being join by an IC and hence gaining other bonuses which is essentially what you are trying to do. RAW, probably. RAI, definitely not.

[Nabterayl]

I don't agree with Mobious' interpretation. It's true that you must declare a Heroic Intervention prior to resolving the Deep Strike. However, it is also true that if somebody were to ask during the Assault phase, "Hey, why can that squad assault? They Deep Struck this turn!" you would have to say, "Because they're taking advantage of the Heroic Intervention rule." In other words, while the Heroic Intervention must be declared before the IC would join the unit, it must remain in effect after the IC would join the unit.

I think JWolf has the RAW of it.

[BDub]

Though it doesn't seem to be explicitly stated. I always assumed they meant that if the Vanguard squad is joined by an IC without a jumpack they would loose the ability.

In the spirit of the game it doesn't seem epic/fluffy that your veterans to loose an inherent ability just because a hero of the imperium is around (assuming of course the hero is also a veteran, a safe assumption) - more likely that they cannot technically pull off the maneuver if the IC isn't properly equipped.

Just sayin'

[Nabterayl]

In the spirit of the rule, BDub, I quite agree, but the text of the rule is crystal clear on that point.

[DarkLink]

I have to agree with JWolf. Attaching an IC to the unit at any time, including deployment, causes the unit to loose Heroic Intervention.

[BuFFo]

At the time the charge is declared, the unit cannot legally charge, as the Heroic Intervention ability is lost when the squad is joined by an IC. This loss has no exceptions and would definitely apply to the case in question.

I agree.

[BDub]

I agree.

So what happens if as a result of the ICs own charge he ends up within 2" of the vanguard squad having already done their charge movement? Can the IC only join with the 2" rule during the movement phase or at anytime he ends within the 2"?

[DarkLink]

Can the IC only join with the 2" rule during the movement phase...

What does the rulebook say? (hint, hint, nudge, nudge^)

[Duke]

after reading the brb and the dex I think the long and short of it is: you can try to make the argument be it is directly against RAI and is a really tough sale for RAW (if at all). If you try to do this in a pickup game prepare for a under-the-table-shin-kick.

Duke

[pelmen78]

Tactically speaking, it shouldn't be too hard for the character to join the assault without joining the heroically intervening unit, especially if that character is jump pack equipped. Tangential, I know, and I can certainly see where maybe the vets are blocking the character from the assault, perhaps.

Appeals to consensus and authority are logically fallacious, but I'll throw my opinion with Jwolf here. Pretty sure the rules don't let HI and ICs work in any combination at any time.

Also, Squats.

[MarshalAdamar]

I don't see the quandary?

A unit with heroic intervention loses the ability as soon as it’s joined by an independent character

So as soon as the IC is with in 2" at the end of the movement phase he joins automatically and the unit loses heroic intervention

During the assault phase you want to charge

You can't because there is an independent character attached to the squad and that unit no longer has the heroic intervention.

It’s just a matte of timing. They had heroic intervention at the beginning of the movement phase IF the IC was more than 3” away from them.

They lost heroic intervention at the end of the movement phase because the IC was with in 2”

So in the assault phase the unit does not have the special rule “heroic intervention” and therefore cannot charge.

[Gotthammer]

I'd allow it - just because I like the idea of a lone Chaplain facing down a squad of berzerkers:
Chaplain: You're going down, heretic scum!
Skull Champ: You and what army?!
*Vanguard heroically intervene, and they all charge*
"For the Emperoooor!!!!"

[BuFFo]

I don't see the quandary?

That's because you know what you are doing.


A unit with heroic intervention loses the ability as soon as it’s joined by an independent character

So as soon as the IC is with in 2" at the end of the movement phase he joins automatically and the unit loses heroic intervention

During the assault phase you want to charge

You can't because there is an independent character attached to the squad and that unit no longer has the heroic intervention.

It’s just a matte of timing. They had heroic intervention at the beginning of the movement phase IF the IC was more than 3” away from them.

They lost heroic intervention at the end of the movement phase because the IC was with in 2”

So in the assault phase the unit does not have the special rule “heroic intervention” and therefore cannot charge.

Case in point :) :)

[david5th]

I don't see the quandary?

A unit with heroic intervention loses the ability as soon as it’s joined by an independent character

So as soon as the IC is with in 2" at the end of the movement phase he joins automatically and the unit loses heroic intervention

During the assault phase you want to charge

You can't because there is an independent character attached to the squad and that unit no longer has the heroic intervention.

It’s just a matte of timing. They had heroic intervention at the beginning of the movement phase IF the IC was more than 3” away from them.

They lost heroic intervention at the end of the movement phase because the IC was with in 2”

So in the assault phase the unit does not have the special rule “heroic intervention” and therefore cannot charge.

Thats settled this deabate.
Even though we would like to use the ability with IC's, it is fairly obvious why the ruling is as it is.

[hisdudeness]

I say that the vanguard can Assault once an IC has joined.

Otherwise, player could declare Heroic Intervention and if the unit scattered out of assault range (and a IC was within range) I just attach the IC and the can now run/shoot after have declared HI. I see that as a bigger rule bend than assaulting out of deep strike with an IC.

But this is all dependent of an IC being close to the vanguard unit once it hits the ground. Quite a bit of luck there, even if you are trying to make it happen. Believe me I’ve tried a few times.

Can a player engineer the situation with wargear to increase the chances…sure, but that is designing an army around a tactic that is based on a very expensive single unit and an expensive IC that have to meet in a pretty lucky way.

[sicarius2424]

yopu can attach them to the squad when they deep strike but unattach him when they do their heroic intervention thats my feelins on that

[Zijan]

I would say that since the Heroic Intervention must be declared before the deep strike actually occurs (scatter dice), the ability is not lost unless they arrive with a character.



This I agree with, you declare Heroic Intervention before you roll the deep strike scatter.



The rule states, "The ability cannot be used if an Independent Character has joined the Vanguard Veteran squad."

So you only lose the ability if a character "has joined", not if a character joins after the ability has been used. Just the way I see it at least. You do not use the ability in the assault phase, you use it before you deep strike.

However, I disagree with your reasoning here. The focus on the words "has joined" is misleading. I think that if you are able to declare that you are using the rule, then the rule will apply, regardless of what happens next.

I admit that the above is blatant RAI though. Jwolf nailed it and the wording is unambiguous: If an IC has joined the unit [before the unit assaults] they may not assault that turn. Unfortunately a pretty clear RAW in this case.