Slight issue for my army is it bound or unbound?

[Xaric]

Ok first off my army consists of

Primary detachment
One Knight errent
Two Knight Paladins

AM detachment formation apoc (page 85)
Three squads of Three armoured sentinels
One Scout Sentinel
Three Enginseers with 2 servotors each

Now the issue i am having is this army classed as unbound or bound because from what i am told a formation counts as being bound but because i addid enginseers would they make this unbound at the moment for me its yes but also no.
The reason it is a bound army for enginseers is because they take up no slot and you may add them for each astra militarum detachment to a max of 3 would this still be bound?

[daboarder]

Are enfineseers in the formation?

If not then it doesnt matter if they are slotless or not. They aren't a part of the formation nore
A cad therefore you ate unbound.

[Xaric]

cad? but thanks for clearing that up for me :)

[daboarder]

Combined arms detatchment. Basic FOC

[Charon]

Formations:


Each Formation will tell you what units you need to take and what, if any, options or restrictions apply to the units that make up that Formation.

So no. No extra engineseers if they are not in the requirement for the formation.

Also:


Apocalypse Formations
If a Formation is referred to as an Apocalypse Formation, it can only be used in games of Warhammer 40,000: Apocalypse.

[Xaric]

The formation may come from the apocalypse book but it is a battle formation. i cant find where you found this entry regaurding apocalypse formation but the staff in my GW shop said its legal and i am sure thease guys are much more understanding off the rules because they work for the company that made the game and it is not just 1 store staff its all of them including the manager who agree that any GW publication that has formations may be used in standard 40K games.

I am a little confused why you shouldent be able to use any formation what they are known for thease powers came from a big apoc game but then lost there memorys when they entered a skermish that would make no sense.

[Charon]

...from the apocalypse book...

mhm...

It is on every formation they release since... well... the first formation they incorporated into "standard" 40k.

Your argument is bull****. I used to work for Bayer and still have no clue about chemical formulas.
As EVERYTHING in the game its up to agreement. If there is no specific agreement, stick to the rules.

Also from the Apocalypse book:


APOCALYPSE FORMATIONS
This section includes the rules for the different types of formations, such as
Psychic Choirs and Armoured Spearheads, and the rules and profiles for the
devastating weapons they use. It ends with a huge collection of datasheets for
use in your games of Apocalypse, providing information and rules for
everything from a Necron Tesseract Vault to a full company of Space Marines.

[daboarder]

yeah its in black and white, Apoc formations and 40k Formations are two different things.

EDIT: and no, GW employs dont get super secret rule induction courses, half of them dont know jack

[Tokunator]

I am not really convinced by the 'A GW guy told me I could, so I can' argument either, as a lot of them are a bit shaky on the rules and also keen on selling you stuff.

Regardless of that, it is still true that your Engineseers are not part of the formation, not part of any other formation or in a legal primary or allied detachment. As this means that you have at least one element that does not comply to a Combined Arms Detachment or any of the variant detachments (such as the ones published in the last couple of codicies, Orks, Grey Knights, Space Wolves, Assassins...), your entire army does not comply to the rules of Battleforged Armies and is therefore considered to be Unbound.

[Xaric]

I emailed them because i was unsure when responding on my thread well unfortantly for people who dont agree with normal games having apoc formations i got a email today saying from GW FAQ black libary a formation is a formation also the people who are at my local GW store spoke to the events team also regaurding this fact and they also said a formation is a formation so please stop with the non-sense you are claiming.

Did you know the apoc book is before 7th edition and there is a rule of thumb the latest edition of a book that contains the most current and up to date rules always takes president over ruling unless FAQ by Black libary FAQ and as it states there is no ruling in the current 7th edition book saying you are not allowed to use formations from any book. This sounds like back when flyers first came out that armys without a flyer would ban them because they are unfair but changed when everyone started to get flyers or when escilation came out and everyone refused to play anyone with a lord of war because they belived they do not belong in normal games... unfortantly cry as much as you want 40k is the grimdark future it is after all apocalyptic in most of the fluff and background.

If you wish not to play with some rules thats a agreement to you and the person you are facing but please do not make rules up because you feel its unfair to justify poor wording i will always go by if its not in the rule book with in reason then its acceptable.

[Charon]

And I spoke to someone who knows Kirby and he told me that he told him taht formations ans apoc formations are 2 different things.
I dont "claim" stuff. I show you evidence from the apoc books and from 40k Dataslates. The only one who "claims" stuff with no single piece of evidence whatsoever ar, in fact, you.
As long as there is no Errata allowing Apoc Formations they are forbidden by the rules. You can houserule that but this is in no way official. It just your personal house rule.
Also curious how you hande Formations that give you additional or specific strategic assets or rules like the planet killer which is not covered in the standard 40k rules.

[Xaric]

Then please show me the page number and where it says i may not allow to use this in normal games? you told me you have evidence yet you still have yet to provide the evidence? I have looked on page 121 of the big rule book and page 59 of the Formation area in the warhammer 40k apocalypse book and no where does it restrict any formation from any GW publication clearly if they did not want us to use apocalypse fomation it would be said here after all the newest apocalypse book is far older then the core rule book so it would have mention of restrictions in the core rule book when they came up with the idea to incorpirate formations into standard games a rules department would have at least play tested the stuff before incorpirating rules not just "lets just throw this in there and go nuts". Until you find clear cut evidence that there are restrictions to the wording it is legal so accept it.

Big question here are you reading from FW books or GW you do know they are two companys and i did say GW publications if it said they are not allowed in normal games from FW books then thats a restriction for using FW books.

And to the other question regaurding core rules from the apoc book it does say on page 121 core rule book use the rules provided as it saids in the first block of text so if the rules say there in the Apoc book then you use said rules even if it can olny ever be used once if you get planet destoryer by all meens use it i will still play because it would be awesome that your elite scout force found out where the leader of the chaos is planning to end the planet and your small squad must wipe him out to claim the glory and be renowned as the guys who assassinated the leader of the chaos warbands.

i can not post the email on here because you would just claim i have changed it to suit my own wording so i ask you send a email to [email protected] and they should send a email within 48 hours.

Also wait a sec your telling me out of the blue your friend who apparently knows kirby and he so happend to ask this trivial question to a CEO not the rule's department guys but the guy who is just the head of a company the same guy who said "we had a great year in profits" when they are loosing profit not to say there going bust i find this really really hard to belive that you got the awnser from him that sounds like the desprate ramblings from someone who is trying to convince a person thats as bad as me saying well i have this brother two times removed who knows a guy who knows another guy that god exsists...

[Charon]

So please point me out an Errata or FAQ that allows you to ignore P3 Apoc Rules:


APOCALYPSE FORMATIONS
This section includes the rules for the different types of formations, such as
Psychic Choirs and Armoured Spearheads, and the rules and profiles for the
devastating weapons they use. It ends with a huge collection of datasheets for
use in your games of Apocalypse, providing information and rules for
everything from a N ecron Tesseract Vault to a full company of Space Marines.

or a FAQ/Errata which changes this:


Apocalypse Formations
If a Formation is referred to as an Apocalypse Formation, it can only be used in games of Warhammer 40,000: Apocalypse.

(As found on the Dataslates Rising Leviatan I, II, III, Datasheet Be'lakor, Dataslate: Eldar 'Ghost Warriors,... and I guess all other too as the this is standard wording on all Dataslates right under the topic FORMATIONS)

And finally please show me without playing a game of apoc how you use strategic assets, finest hour, divine intervention, unnatural disaster,... (which is included in many Apoc Formations) without constantly refering to apoc rules as there are no strategic victory points in a standard 40k game.
You see that using Apoc Formations (not to mention the suggestion in the Apoc rules to just make up Formations yourself... which would solve your houserule isse about unbound or not... just invent your own formation as permitted in the apoc rules) in a standard game causes a lot of unsolved issues right here. Thats why they banned it from standard play.
They MIGHT add them in the future when they find a way to weed stuff out that is tied to Apoc rules.


thats as bad as me saying well i have this brother two times removed who knows a guy who knows another guy that god exsists...

Which is exactly what you did thus the sarcastic "Kirby thingy"... did you really believe that for half a second? Oo

[Charistoph]

Big question here are you reading from FW books or GW you do know they are two companys and i did say GW publications if it said they are not allowed in normal games from FW books then thats a restriction for using FW books.

GW owns FW like Ford owns Lincoln. While they are two companies, one IS owned by the other and used for their less production-heavy lines.

And the Apocalypse Book IS a GW book, it's not FW. And he quoted the Apocalypse book (but a page number to reference would be productive, Charon).

[Xaric]

Your first quote is outdated it saids a huge collection of datasheets for use in your games of Apocalypse this book was made way before 7th edition before formations could be used in normal games of 40k but also where does it say in your quotes that they are not allowed in normal games of 40k after all super heavys in this book can be used freely in normal 40k games does that meen because there Super heavys from this book we are not allowed to use them in normal games because there profiles belong to the apoc book? does that make them Apoc super heavys... like the warhound titan.

I am looking on the FAQ/Errata where does it say there not allowed to be used in normal 40k games the infomation in the apoc book is heavly outdated that in some words yes for a better question need FAQ but when i hear from the geniral staff from GW and infomation from the rules department who do the FAQ tell me that it is what it is then i will follow said things said because why would they lie about stuff in there games and belive me i even question them with meny exsamples and they seem very confident that they speak the truth of what they say thease people have been working for GW for a good soild 10+ years so i trust them and meny of them are my freinds because they insure that people in the shop follow the rules by the rulebook.

The part where you say it make it look as sarcastic its more teaching you with an exsample and by telling me that you know someone who knows another person who apparently convenantly in such a short timespan knows this question and awnser it and due to his high position in the company is ment to intimidate me into beliving you are correct...

[Charon]

So in short:

You have no hard evidence.
You only argument is that the Apoc rules are pre 7th and therefore invalid (isn't that a contradiction in itself?) which they are not.

As I said you can play how you like and even use your own houserule version of the game. But why does it matter if it is unbound or not when you use your own rules anyways?

Also you failed to answer my last question or cite any other source than "my friend the store manager who definately doesnt want to sell me expensive stuff" and the funny guys from gamefaqs which give you 3 different answers if you ask the same question three times depending on who answers.



after all super heavys in this book can be used freely in normal 40k games

No they can't.

BRB:


Lords of War
Lords of War are the most powerful and destructive units to wage war in the 41st Millennium. They include towering monstrosities and super-heavy vehicles that bristle with enough weaponry to lay waste to anything foolish enough to stand before them. You’ll find a selection of Lords of War units in some codexes and in Warhammer 40,000: Escalation.


The Apocalypse Book is neither Escalation, nor a Codex (like Orks, Space Wolves and Grey Knights).
So yes to things like Baneblade (Escalation), Thunderhawk (Escalation), Stomper (Codex: Orks) and no to things like Warhound titan (Apocalypse)

[Charistoph]

No they can't.

BRB:

The Apocalypse Book is neither Escalation, nor a Codex (like Orks, Space Wolves and Grey Knights).
So yes to things like Baneblade (Escalation), Thunderhawk (Escalation), Stomper (Codex: Orks) and no to things like Warhound titan (Apocalypse)

Sorry, but in this case, you're a little off, the BRB doesn't provide an exclusive list. Now, I don't think any of the Apocalypse books specifically list the Super-Heavies as Lords of War Role (since the last version didn't have that Role in anything but Horus Heresy), but Forgeworld does list the ones they sell that are considered to be Lords of War for different factions.

[Pssyche]

Here's a link to the Forge World Downloads Page.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/fwDownloads

The list for Lords of War is at the bottom of the first column.

[daboarder]

I emailed them because i was unsure when responding on my thread well unfortantly for people who dont agree with normal games having apoc formations i got a email today saying from GW FAQ black libary a formation is a formation also the people who are at my local GW store spoke to the events team also regaurding this fact and they also said a formation is a formation so please stop with the non-sense you are claiming.


And I have one that says they aren't, congratulations and welcome to your GW rules induction.


Bloody hell what is with the rules forum lately, Shoulds, would, I asked a guy who knows a guy....NONE of these belong here.

This place isn't for discussing how the game should work its about discussing how the game DOES work....

Apoc and 40k are two distinct games and despite their overlap they REMAIN two distinct games. The ONLY place to find the rules for apocalypse formation (their movement, deployment, and bonuses) is in the apocalypse rule book.

- - - Updated - - -


Sorry, but in this case, you're a little off, the BRB doesn't provide an exclusive list. Now, I don't think any of the Apocalypse books specifically list the Super-Heavies as Lords of War Role (since the last version didn't have that Role in anything but Horus Heresy), but Forgeworld does list the ones they sell that are considered to be Lords of War for different factions.

Details, but his core point is accurate


Xaric, here is an example....The plague reaper may not be taken as chaos as a LoW, it appears neither on the FW list or the GW one

[The Tisroc]

I can't read Xaric's posts. The consist of endless run on sentences. Xaric, please learn to use punctuation! You might be making valid points! I don't know because your posts are almost completely illegible! Mate, is English a second language for you? If so, I'm not mocking you. We have a lot of folks on this board that speak and write in English as a second language.

Please start using short sentences. Begin them, put forth an idea, and then end them. Start each sentence with a capital letter and end it with a punctuation mark. Please stop writing walls of text without punctuation. Cheers.

[Theik]

Sure, you can use apocalypse formations, but then you are playing unbound (or apocalypse) by default.

[Charon]

Sorry, but in this case, you're a little off, the BRB doesn't provide an exclusive list. Now, I don't think any of the Apocalypse books specifically list the Super-Heavies as Lords of War Role (since the last version didn't have that Role in anything but Horus Heresy), but Forgeworld does list the ones they sell that are considered to be Lords of War for different factions.

I would agree on that but he wrote:


Big question here are you reading from FW books or GW you do know they are two companys and i did say GW publications

Also I have to admit I don't like FW. Not enought that GW only caters to the imperial faction, Forgeworld also has the same policy.
And adding your own products deliberately via a self written allowance into a game of a vast different power level (Reaver Titans in normal 40k games... sure...) is kind of bad style.
Dont get me wrong I think FW does decent rules most of the time (unlike GW) but at the end of the day I look at this list and my DE feel more screwed than they already are.

[Charistoph]

Also I have to admit I don't like FW. Not enought that GW only caters to the imperial faction, Forgeworld also has the same policy.
And adding your own products deliberately via a self written allowance into a game of a vast different power level (Reaver Titans in normal 40k games... sure...) is kind of bad style.
Dont get me wrong I think FW does decent rules most of the time (unlike GW) but at the end of the day I look at this list and my DE feel more screwed than they already are.

And FW is owned and operated by GW, making anything they write a GW publication. Forgeworld isn't like Chapterhouse, a completely independent company.

Also, they didn't print the rules for all of those models listed, many came from the more Citadel-side of the company in the Apocalypse book, they just noted which ones they produce the models for.

That having been said, a few of them wouldn't be able to fit well in a Battle-Forged list that WASN'T at Apocalypse point levels, anyway.

[Xaric]

I can't read Xaric's posts. The consist of endless run on sentences. Xaric, please learn to use punctuation! You might be making valid points! I don't know because your posts are almost completely illegible! Mate, is English a second language for you? If so, I'm not mocking you. We have a lot of folks on this board that speak and write in English as a second language.

Please start using short sentences. Begin them, put forth an idea, and then end them. Start each sentence with a capital letter and end it with a punctuation mark. Please stop writing walls of text without punctuation. Cheers.

Sorry but i suffer from dyslexica as my professionals in this field who tryed to help me with this condition at school but thanks for your insenistive remarks would it make you feel better if my account was removed would that make you happy? i have been trying to spell words and such and make coherant parigraphs but sorry the gramma/spell checker site i use is down at the moment...

[The Tisroc]

Insensitive remark? Hardly. I'd just like a few more sentences per paragraph. It would make your posts infinitely more readable. Why would I want your account deleted?

[Gleipnir]

Apocalypse Formations are most definitely not the same as Standard Formations, though in many cases GW will take the units from an Apocalypse Formation and make a Standard equivalent formation for use in non-apocalypse games.

They have already done so with examples from Tyranids, Orks, and Assassins thus far.

[hisdudeness]

i can not post the email on here because you would just claim i have changed it to suit my own wording so i ask you send a email to [email protected] and they should send a email within 48 hours.



You do realize that emails from any means nothing...there is a storied history of multiple answers for the same question. The only valid sources are the BRB, Codexes, and FAQs.

[Gleipnir]

The Apocalypse Book is neither Escalation, nor a Codex (like Orks, Space Wolves and Grey Knights).
So yes to things like Baneblade (Escalation), Thunderhawk (Escalation), Stomper (Codex: Orks) and no to things like Warhound titan (Apocalypse)

As was said previously this is incorrect since the FW downloads page has a more current list of Lords of War units for use in standard play, the Warhound Titan among them.