New Grey Knights

[DarkLink]

The codex has leaked. GKs have been my main, and just shy of exclusive, army for many moons, so I'll go over everything in it (no, not posting pictures). I'm not exactly pleased, but at least I know how Tyranid players feel. If GW wanted to teach me a lesson in empathy...


Warlord Traits:
They're mediocre to bad.

1. Daemonslayer gives you Hatred: Daemons, and lets you cast Banishment (and only Banishment, no other powers) on a 2+. Draigo has this by default.

2. Hammer of Righteousness: Warlord and Unit gain Hammer of Wrath. Kinda cool, but GKs wreck face in assault normally in the cases where they actually want to be in assault, so it really doesn't matter much.
3. Unyeilding Anvil: Warlord and friendly units in 12” gain Stubborn. Who cares, they’re all ATSKNF anyways.
4. First to the Fray: Actually kinda cool. Warlord and unit reroll scatter and deepstrike T1. Neat, but you only rarely get it and the rest suck.
5. Perfect Timing: Warlord and unit get Counter Attack. Kinda cool, Not terrible, at least. But trust me, having Counter Attack constantly available via The Grand Strategy in the 5th ed codex, and it really isn’t anything special for GKs. Your Warlord is usually part of a unit that everyone runs away from in terror already, unless you take one of the non-combat HQs that you want to keep out of assault, Counter Attack or no.
6. Lore Master: You generate one more power from Santic Daemonology than normal. This denies you Psychic Focus, so unless you planned on rolling all on Santic anyways, not a very good deal, and since you already have most of the Santic powers scattered through your army already, WTF would you want to roll on Santic with your one shot at Divination or Telepathy? Sounds good, really isn’t.

Special rules: Nothing new here.

Armory:
Basically everything is either nerfed or more expensive. Swords lose the Invulnerable save bonus, Halberds are still decent but with +1 Str instead of +2I, but they now cost everyone points to upgrade which means they’ll rarely be worth taking. Staves are only good for getting Adamantium Will in a unit, otherwise they’re terrible. Since offensive psychic powers are pretty crappy against GKs already, probably not worth the points most of the time either. And Hammers are still great, same as before, but now everyone costs 10pts to upgrade to them, which is a huge hit to Terminators and Paladins (at least Terminators are cheaper, but getting the hammers you need into the units will erase most of that point discount, so meh).

Psybolt Ammo is gone. Which makes basically every single shooty GK unit overpriced storm bolters.

Psycannons are Salvo, so they’re utterly worthless on power armor guys now. Still good on Terminators, and the Heavy Psycannon is awesome with the option for Heavy 6 shots in addition to the Heavy 1 Large Blast, but between the loss of Psybolt Ammo and crappy Salvo Psycannons, power armor GKs are pretty crappy now.

Psilencers gained Force, but before anyone gets too excited remember that they’re still Str 4 with no AP, which means they won’t actually be putting any wounds on Riptides or Wraithknights, rendering Force utterly pointless. Still terrible.

Incinerators now have Soul Blaze, and they’re still a better Heavy Flamer, so that’s cool, but GKs are already good at killing stuff up close. They’re cheaper for most units now, too, so you might see some, say, Interceptors with them, but otherwise there’s nothing much to look at here. Terminators and Paladins will still take Psycannons, and power armor GKs will still mostly sit on the shelves.

Psyk-out Grenades can now be thrown as a small blast at Str 2, and cause a Perils if they hit, which is pretty sweet.

Brotherhood Banner: Still +1A, now reroll failed morale in 12”. Except I think only Paladins can take it now.

Relics:
Nothing game changing here. The armor one gets you FNP and IWND, which is pretty cool, but you can’t get it on Draigo so meh. You can make some kinda cool HQs, but nothing particularly awesome like the Shield Eternal Chapter Master on a Bike with a Thunderhammer that every single Space Marine player just happened to have in their collection.

Now for the units:
Lords of War:
DRAAIIIIIIGGGGGGGGOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!: Supreme Grand Master Lord Kalgor Draigo, Knight of Titan, is still a boss. Cheaper, now has AP2, makes Paladins Objective Secured. He lost the ability to generate powers (no more Precog for him), but has Gate of Infinity which is kinda cool (and if you’ve read Pandorax, this makes sense that he has it). He’s only Str/T 4 now, but Eternal Warrior and the Titansword(+3 Str Ap2) means that isn’t a big deal. He’s now Str 7 and has Hammerhand. The real problem is that he’s a Lord of War. I want to punch whoever was stupid enough to think up this idea. In order to take Draigo, you now have to pay for an HQ and Troops. Draigo’s main thing was taking Paladins, and Draigo and friends are already prohibitively expensive, which means that you basically can’t take them outside of like, Apocalypse. The circumstances in which you will be able to run Draigo are much more limited. BTW, everyone lost The Grand Strategy, which singlehandedly could account for the points decrease for Draigo on its own it was that awesome of a rule. So Draigo went from someone who was a great force multiplier for your army, to someone who is just really good at punching other people in the face. Not exactly a win, but I’ll take a Str 9 AP2 Draigo anyways.

But seriously, characters as Lords of War is just stupid. The lack of FOC swaps is just stupid. No one like Unbound, GW, quite trying to push the poorly conceived mess of FOC shenanigans on us. The only good thing to come of it was army-specific FOCs, which is admittedly pretty cool, but not at the cost of being trapped into taking crappy troops choices to meet minimum requirements and then losing to Objective Secured Wave Serpents or whatever.


HQ
Crowe/Brotherhood Champions:
BCs are 150pts now, gained a second wound, but lost a ton of stuff and weren’t exactly good to being with. Crowe is kinda good in that he gained IC (finally), but he got more expensive and is still only two wounds. BCs are worthless, Crowe’s a little better than he was but not great. Still gets Cleansing Flame, though, which is awesome.

Librarians:
These guys got a massive points drop. 110 base, 25 for ML3. Can’t get a 2++ in assault now, but this is a solid HQ choice. Cheap warp charges, and access to Divination and Telepathy. Probably going to be everyone’s default HQ now.

Brother Captains: Same stats, same points. No more broken grenades, but they still generate powers from Telepaty and Divination so that’s cool. Grand Masters are a 35pt upgrade, which is totally worth it. While you don’t get The Grand Strategy anymore, you get ML2 and 4 base attacks. And Psycannons are much cheaper on these guys. With the FNP armor, a Daemonhammer or Falchions, these guys are pretty beefy, though they’re still only 3W. Not too bad.

Techmarines: Way, too expensive for a single wound model. They were only good for grenade caddies in the previous codex, and with no more 2++ warding staves, rad, or psykotroke grenades, they lost their only raison d’etre.

Brother Captain Stern: Still overpriced, with worthless special abilities. But, hey, he got lightly cheaper. Yay?


Elite:
Purifiers: Psycannons suck on PAGK, so meh. They also went up in points to 25 a model. They did gain ML2, however, which is kinda cool, and they still get Cleansing Flame. And now their cc attacks all have Soul Blaze, which is… something? Could be worse, but now these guys are mostly just for driving forward and burninating all the daemons (and other things).

Paladins: The Hammer to Draigo’s Anvil, Paladins are still pretty beefy. Their upgrades are slightly cheaper, but they now have to pay for cc upgrades like Hammers, so it’s a wash. If you ran the Apothecary, which it massively worth it now at a mere 20pts, your unit will be cheaper, but a bare-bones unit of Paladins just got significantly more expensive. Combined with the fact that you’re now screwed over with a troops and HQ tax since Paladins and Draigo, well, aren’t, and I don’t see it easy making a list that can actually fit these guys in even though they’re still pretty awesome. One of the few good things in this codex, and GW totally cockblocked GK players with their stupid FOC shenanigans that no one actually allows. Le sigh.


Troops:
Terminators: Significantly cheaper. Now, the nerfs to NFWs negate a lot of that, but they’re still cheaper Terminators, and they don’t care about Salvo on Psycannons. Are they good? Well, how many people run cheap CSM Terminators, or SW Wolf Guard in Terminator armor? Yeah… so not bad, but getting a much, much, much needed point decrease doesn’t make them amazing, just better. You can get better results from these guys, but they’re not quite going to carry the codex for us.

Strike Squads: More expensive, and with the loss of Psybolt ammo and the Psycannon nerf there’s little reason to run these poor guys. They’re just overpriced Marines now. They were pretty solid, and now they’re worse in every meaningful way.

FA:
Storm Raven: Lost Psybolt Ammo. Lost Mindstrike Missiles, but at least it gets the Str 8 missiles instead, so meh. Pretty good, but significantly less so lacking Psybolt Ammo and considering that GKs are very, very point starved so it can be hard to fit something that won’t be on the table fighting for a few turns into a list.

Interceptors: The unit is slightly cheaper, down to 24 from 26 points per model, but you now have to pay the stupid sergeant tax, so it’s not a big decrease. Lacking psybolt ammo, and with crappy psycannons, the only thing these guys are good for is dropping Incinerators on people for lols, but Dreadknights do it just as well and aren’t overpriced Marines, so there’s not much going for Interceptors.


Heavy:
Dreadknights: Terribl… oh, wait, these guys are actually pretty sweet. They got massively cheaper, and the Heavy Psycannon now can get Heavy 6 shots. They lose the cool reroll-everything from the Sword (which is now, like, Master Crafted or something stupid), but these guys are pretty boss. Now, they’re still as expensive as a Riptide but only have 4 wounds and need to be close to fight, so they’re not actually anything crazy OP, but they’re actually good now.

Dreadnoughts: They got more expensive, and lost psybolt ammo, and don’t have Drop Pods. Why does GW hate Dreadnoughts so?

Purgation squads: They lost Astral Aim, and gained… Night Vision. And psycannons on PAGK are terrible thanks to Salvo. And even if you did want to spam Incinerators or something, at least take Purifiers instead. No one will ever take these.


Land Raiders and variants: They’re Land Raiders. They lost psybolt ammo, but Land Raiders are still pretty awesome right now. What more do you want from me?






Basically, almost everything in the codex got nerfed. It might have been justified in, like, 5th edition. Not in 6th, and certainly not in 7th. Eldar and Tau just shoot GKs off the board, and in 7th GKs struggle to keep up with malestorm missions because they're terrible balanced for elite armies. The codex seems like it's heavily reliant on a handful of workhorse units (HQs, Dreadknights, Land Raiders), and GW couldn't have done a better job at forcing GK players to use their crazy Unbound/FOC crap to make your list actually function as an army. Outside of maybe one or two builds, there isn't much a GK player can do within the standard FOC. The custom GK FOC helps a little, and is actually pretty cool, except it limits your heavy support slots (which means fewer Dreadknights, the new best unit in the codex) and you can't fit very much Objective Secured into your lists. Since everyone is now playing missions with a bajillion objectives, and GKs aren't going to be great at tabling people like Tau are, they likely won't be making much of a showing in tournaments.



But, hey, at least we're not Tyranids, amiright ;).

- - - Updated - - -

I might have missed something, and I left out a few minor things here or there, but this is basically the codex. So if you come around with an "but, like, what about Inquisitors man", I hate to break it to you, but you're out of luck.

[daboarder]

....Am I the only one not a fan of the direction the 7th ed books are going?

I mean who is the idiot that let the "less codex options" BS out of the closet, because the removal of all the FOC swaps is essentially just that (and no unbound while I am a fan, should not have to be the solution for a myriad of reasons)

I'm just not liking the design philosophy.....

[Caitsidhe]

Eh. No one mentioned the "rumored" rule about GK and Daemons getting buffs against each other. I take it that was false?

[Anggul]

Wow. I'm glad they removed the more silly wargear, but there was no reason to nerf the units themselves directly. Sounds crap. Commiserations from a Tyranid player.

[Varou Graou]

So, basically, it's a codex ripped off a third of its units...
With most of it nerfed as well as their gears...

Damm, why the two armies i own had to be Tyranids and GK :'(

With the last codices, Games Workshop releases feels more like a fortune wheel, with player hoping for a nice fun playable codex, more than a rule updated and freshened codex as it used to be in previous years...

(sorry for typos and else, am not english).

[Blood Shadow]

First what I love about GK and Inquisition is their unique and fluffy equipment and special forces war gear.....but it seems like it's being completely faded out

:'( Psy bolt ammo - why? it's not OP if it is then just adjust the points cost accordingly, it's just lazy to delete it

:'( Rad Grenades - I loved the unique aspect of GK grenades, hopefully they'll keep them in the =I= dex, it'd be horrible to lose them completely.

:'( Mind Strike missiles - whilst Str 8 AP2 isn't a bad boost the flavour is lost a little here, less bothered but still I feel everything is getting dose of vanilla, makes the reboxing of the vehicle kits even more bizarre.....

It could be as simple as wargear means you have less models in your army, if you can't model psybolts you might as well delete them so you can fit another Paladin in your army...

Did the guys at GW surf the internet for every Matt Ward rant and look to purge the game of his insidious touch? It does seem like they're going out of there way to remove all of the things he put in. After the nerf to Draigo's stats I'm actually really curious to see what's going to happen to the likes of Mephiston.....reduced to Str4 T4 Int4 and a 3+Sv?? Not that I've ever played with either, I just like the fact that they exist.

Without psy-bolts as allies is a PAGK ever worth taking? I'll be curious to see how they measure up vs say Ld 10 2+Sv SM honour guard with Relic blades or VV with powerweapons or Wolfguard with frost weapons? Not that I think GK will be bad, they probably wont (other than still needing SR to take on flyers and tanks - though even more so now) I just think they're being watered down.

:'( The Force Heavy Psilencer seems interesting at first, until you realise that you'll need all twelve shots to stand even the remotest chance of taking out a T4 character.....losing the wound on a 4+ is really disappointing.

I'm just hoping that there's something to get excited about in the dex

[Defenestratus]

Personally - I'm liking the fact that the units that I like got points drops - making the GK easier to ally into my existing BA force which is how I feel they should be used.

I know its not a popular opinion regarding the changes, but I'm probably going to finally put down some coin on a squad of GKT to put in my BA army.

[Slacker]

At least this release has no new "Oooh! Shiny!" (I happen to have a terminal case of this particular syndrome.) So, unlike with my Tyranids, I can just buy a book and be disappointed instead of a book and all the new kits and cards... and be disappointed.

--- edit ---
So at least my wallet feels a little sense relief?

[Caitsidhe]

The changes to GK are just another step in the direction Games Workshop wants us to take. They don't want people fielding single faction armies. They want everyone buying lots of stuff from different armies. If you look at the new GK through that prism, you will see that they are far better as small allied detachments for people who want to bolster their Warp Changes and have acess to Santic. Look at the price reduction in Librarians. :D Look at the favoring of Terminators. What you are going to see is lots of allied Detachmens or combined arms detachments that include 1-2 Librarians and some Terminators. :D

[Defenestratus]

The changes to GK are just another step in the direction Games Workshop wants us to take. They don't want people fielding single faction armies. They want everyone buying lots of stuff from different armies. If you look at the new GK through that prism, you will see that they are far better as small allied detachments for people who want to bolster their Warp Changes and have acess to Santic. Look at the price reduction in Librarians. :D Look at the favoring of Terminators. What you are going to see is lots of allied Detachmens or combined arms detachments that include 1-2 Librarians and some Terminators. :D

My thought exactly.

I wonder if the bit of fluff where GK's kill everyone who saw them is still in place.

[Caitsidhe]

My thought exactly.

I wonder if the bit of fluff where GK's kill everyone who saw them is still in place.

It is what they want. It is part of an idiotic plan which they have been trying to foist since 6th Edition. The problem, which they refuse to accept, is... 1) Nobody has to buy anything from them to add these allied detachments. The glut of models on the market (legit and not so much) make it unecessary to go to them. 2) People are not playing larger games. They are embracing smaller games because of clunky rules and the impossibility to keep up with all the rules sources. 3) They have managed to bury nearly all good will which makes people even less inclined to favor them and find it easier to justify less than savory sources.

Since the end of 5th Edition, wherein the average game size in my area was 2500pts, games have shrunk to between 1500-1850pts for almost every single organized game. Most pick up games (what few there are) mirror the event sizes as most people want to practice and try out their lists for the tournaments. Moreover, Tournament Organizers have (because of bad, vague rules writing and spam rules) limited sources. These two pragmatic truths deter massive purchases or the need to expand into multiple armies for the average player. There will always be fanatics, but most people play ONE army with at most a touch of some other detachment. That detachment doesn't require Games Workshop. :D

For example, I can easily "tart up" some of my Terminators to be fallen GK. Hell, that is a much better use for CSM Terminators (turning them into GK gone bad) than their natural state. I've already set aside the models, raided my bits for the appropriate guns, and presto chango I've just added more Warp Charges to my army and access to Void Grenades. :D

[silashand]

....Am I the only one not a fan of the direction the 7th ed books are going?

I'm just not liking the design philosophy.....

Pretty much everyone I've spoken to would agree with you. The new direction is just dumb. I wonder what they will do in 6 months when their mid-year financials are still in the doldrums? Oh, I know. Raise prices! That'll fix it! :rolleyes:

[Caitsidhe]

Pretty much everyone I've spoken to would agree with you. The new direction is just dumb. I wonder what they will do in 6 months when their mid-year financials are still in the doldrums? Oh, I know. Raise prices! That'll fix it! :rolleyes:

Depends on whether or not they hire a real CEO or just a "yes-person" for Kirby.

[jtwilliams37]

Seriously? This is like beating up a blind kid.

I don't get it. Why even bother putting out a new codex? I haven't played in months because of Eldar/Tau domination now I have no incentive to ever play again.

We had a few big weaknesses that needed address - for one lack of High Str low AP weaponry. Instead of getting some of that we got... nerfed across the board? Salvo psycannons? Really? Marines have Meltas, Fists, Launchers, Lascannons, Vehicles with Str 8 AP2 Large blasts, grav guns. We get... Lascannons removed (inquisitorial henchmen) and psyflemen removed. So we have what, hammers and... ? Draigo's new weapon? I just can't fathom this level of incompetence; it's like they're trying to get people to quit the game.

Why can't they get it through their heads that I want to play MY ARMY. I chose my army very carefully cause I liked the looks and the fluff. I don't want to have to buy other guys and ally. I hadn't played in a while but I kept my eyes on the game's climate because I was hoping for a change that would make it bearable again... but this is the final nail in the coffin and my wallet is closed to GW forever. Think this is why Matt Ward quit?

[40kGamer]

Games in my area are definitely dropping in size. In 5th edition games peaked at 2-2.5k and since the transition to 6th and then 7th, they have dropped to 1750-1850.

The 7th edition trend seems to be remove the majority of unique flavor from the codex and shoehorn something into the new detachments/formations. I'm still trying to decide how I feel about it.

[Caitsidhe]

Games in my area are definitely dropping in size. In 5th edition games peaked at 2-2.5k and since the transition to 6th and then 7th, they have dropped to 1750-1850.

The 7th edition trend seems to be remove the majority of unique flavor from the codex and shoehorn something into the new detachments/formations. I'm still trying to decide how I feel about it.

Chances are we won't have to get too used to it. I expect as soon as the last hardback is out the new Edition will drop. :D They will just reimagine the entire setting all over again. We are in the Apocalypse now, apparently, since you can take comes the apocalypse allies. They are making a big deal out of the end times in Fantasy too with the return of Nagash. They are just going to spam all the books and immediately retire the current setting. The next Edition won't have a number or anything like that. It will just have a new name.

[40kGamer]

Must resist urge to be cynical.... :)

I'm guessing WFB 9th next year and 8th edition in 2016. :p

From everything I've seen out of the Grey Knights Codex they look to be a solid allied detachment but will struggle on their own.... A Librarian + Termies looks to be a solid addition to any imperial army.

[Caitsidhe]

Must resist urge to be cynical.... :)

I'm guessing WFB 9th next year and 8th edition in 2016. :p

From everything I've seen out of the Grey Knights Codex they look to be a solid allied detachment but will struggle on their own.... A Librarian + Termies looks to be a solid addition to any imperial army.

Hell, not just Imperial. :D I see them as a wonderful addition to my Chaos. I have no fear of using "comes the apocalypse" allies, although I always model them as Fallen Version of their type. The ability to back up Daemon Princes on steroids w/super-psykers on the cheap appeals to me. I'll be able to have Santic and Malefic with no downside and average 9-12 Warp Charges with ease (without having to build for it with lots of little Daemons). :D

[vonDietdrich]

The 7th edition trend seems to be remove the majority of unique flavor from the codex and shoehorn something into the new detachments/formations. I'm still trying to decide how I feel about it.

My only thought is 'they actually pay people to write this stuff?'

Like.. it seems that most of the codex editing consists of deletions and nerfs, with about four one-page charts of formations/new FOC/warlord traits and relics that would take maybe 30 minutes of chalkboard time to come up with apiece. The actual production value of the codexes and their constituent rules has gone WAY down.

[Blood Shadow]

I think it was summed up when someone mentioned we're now paying just for rules updates rather than progressive or interesting codexes.

That said I think I can see a better game coming out of the vanillaisation of codexes, the less war gear and peculiar rules the less mistakes made

[Chumbalaya]

I never thought I'd see the day Grey Knights got Nidded. Well, it's here.

Sorry, GK players.

[DarkLink]

Don't worry, it's not as bad as Daemonhunters was, and unlike most Grey Knight players I know what that was like ;).

[silashand]

Don't worry, it's not as bad as Daemonhunters was, and unlike most Grey Knight players I know what that was like ;).

Indeed. While I enjoyed my DH army it was almost never effective :).

[Xaric]

Nerf?? what is this i call it rebalanced from what i see is people are butt hurt because now they need to use there brain and come up with a list and not use the standard cookie cutter build from the forums people forget GK are a elite army meaning there is meant to be some form of skill to use them also you guys will be dominating the psyker phase vs most army's now.

I heard a lot of GK players cry out for a lord of war lately now you get one i hear some people are complaining about it no way to please people i guess...

How about this instead of complaining about the new codex before anyone has really played any games with it. Try to think of a positive mindset about the changes after all everything has a reason to why it gets changed its not always well lets Nerf this and this so they buy new models after all everyone who is a GK player already have the dreaded baby carrier also there is not new kits so it cant really be that. Look at what happened to Tyranid players when they got there new book they moaned because there old builds became useless but now they have played it for a wile and have become quite a powerful army.

[Reldane]

Nerf?? what is this i call it rebalanced from what i see is people are butt hurt because now they need to use there brain and come up with a list and not use the standard cookie cutter build from the forums people forget GK are a elite army meaning there is meant to be some form of skill to use them also you guys will be dominating the psyker phase vs most army's now.

I can understand some logic, most grey knight players have an army built around draigo, crowe (or coteaz) and in general they should be encrouaged to look for new lists however in this case the issue is that there isn't much choice in the book. There is only a handful of units to pick from (strike, purifier, purgation, interceptor, terminator, paladin, dreadnaught, dreadknight) so there are very limited number of builds. I would point out that whilst terminators have gotten cheaper base the hefty cost for the hammer means most squads stay roughly the same in cost and with points increases on strike squad this isn't going to make the troop choices that those players avoided any more attractive. It is also worth noting that as an elite army it can be difficult to fit much in around the required expensive troops so list variance is curtailed again.

For myself, I don't run named characters however the changes to psycannons make power armoured grey knights very unappealing, purifiers might still make it into my armies armies but it will be rare that I will want to play the army going forward.

The big difference between the nid book and the grey knight book is that the nids generally got cheaper (tevigron, hivegaurd not withstanding) this opened up a lot of new options that previously had not been takeable (tyranofex being the best example). With a lot of the grey knight units getting more expensive (strike, purifers, purgation, dreadnaughts) along with the loss of the main anti tank unit (psyfilemen) few new options will be opened up.

I am not sorry to see psybolt, brainmines, rad and psychotrope grenades vanish, but melta and plasma guns would have made the blow less harsh. There is still no option for non terminator Librarian, or for a character to join interceptors. In fact I do not personally see any new lists, tricks or even ideas for how to build an army

[daboarder]

Nerf?? what is this i call it rebalanced from what i see is people are butt hurt because now they need to use there brain and come up with a list and not use the standard cookie cutter build from the forums people forget GK are a elite army meaning there is meant to be some form of skill to use them also you guys will be dominating the psyker phase vs most army's

I heard a lot of GK players cry out for a lord of war lately now you get one i hear some people are complaining about it no way to please people i guess...

How about this instead of complaining about the new codex before anyone has really played any games with it. Try to think of a positive mindset about the changes after all everything has a reason to why it gets changed its not always well lets Nerf this and this so they buy new models after all everyone who is a GK player already have the dreaded baby carrier also there is not new kits so it cant really be that. Look at what happened to Tyranid players when they got there new book they moaned because there old builds became useless but now they have played it for a wile and have become quite a powerful army.



Heres the thing. These claims people are making and do make are completely valid. They always are. GW consistently breaks builds from one codex to the next. Its not even gimmicky bs builds but actual core concept lists. And thats not even going into the fact that entire units are being consistenly split into multiple sources....i mean if its worked for the last 20 years do you really expect people to buy the stupid "they couldnt fit those units in" or the "it makes more sense like this". So next time you feel the need to be the tough guy do us all a favour and dont post.


Oh and for the record I have pretty much no vested interest in GKs either way. Ive just had this crap happen to my own thousand dollar investments and therefore understand peoples disgust

- - - Updated - - -

Oh and that wait and see bussiness is crap weight of experience tells anyone with half a brain that initial thoughts are valid. Theres been only 1 or 2 actual instances where that was ever wrong

[Wolfshade]

I'm still not 100% sold on the idea of "man-sized" lords of war.

The thing is, as is always the case, there will be a new cookie-cutter army, changing the rules re-balancing, nerfing however you want to call it doesn't change that.

Someone will post an army that they consider to be efficient and so the new normal spreads.

And yes some of the combos that they had before could be quite ridiculuos but it seems the response has been a bit overkill.

Certainly though if you see pysflemen in *every* (not every) GK build one needs to consider if that option is undercosted.

I don't know,

[Chmmr_X]

There is one thing that was missed out: The Grey Knights Detachment

Requirements: 1 HQ, 1 Troops
Optional: 1 HQ, 3 Troops, 4 Elites, 2 Fast Attack, 2 Heavy Support, 1 LOW, 1 Fortification
(All units must be from the Grey Knights faction)

Special Rules:
Brotherhood Commander: Able to repick warlord trait
Rites of Teleportation: Able to start making reserve rolls on first turn on a 3+ for all units that are deep-striking. All units that enter the game in this manner can shoot and run in the turn that they arrive, in any order. (Pseudo Fleet)

I feel that this has a place. Include a Cypher in, infiltrate with a squad with a Teleport Homer, and you can have hell coming into your opponent's doorstep very quickly.

Or, you can have a pseudo Drop Pod army. Go 2nd, make the enemy shoot at nothing on turn 1, then you DS in and kill what he has on table. (Similar to the Eldar tactic in 5th Ed where the entire army is reserved)

[40kGamer]

Heres the thing. These claims people are making and do make are completely valid. They always are. GW consistently breaks builds from one codex to the next. Its not even gimmicky bs builds but actual core concept lists.

Oh and for the record I have pretty much no vested interest in GKs either way. Ive just had this crap happen to my own thousand dollar investments and therefore understand peoples disgust.

The way 7th edition rules are going I expect to see Wave Serpents and Riptides sent to the shelf when their time comes around. It's funny that as a long time player you know that every edition/codex there will be some units you might get to take off the shelf and some that get put on the shelf with hopes that they will someday be viable in the rules again... some units like Banshees and Harlequins have been on the shelf for a long, long time.

Unless Grey Knights are totally unplayable in the new dex I'm not convinced this shakeup is that horrible. More than 50% of what people called Grey Knights armies that I played since the last codex dropped were full inquisition. Occasionally a Draigowing or Purifier list would pop up but I have yet to see a single player in my area field Strike or Purgation squads.


I'm still not 100% sold on the idea of "man-sized" lords of war.


I'm with you on this one. Seems crazy to place a man sized model in the same category as a Titan or Superheavy.

[Caitsidhe]

The only point of the shake ups is to stimulate sales, by invalidating what was good and trying to create a rush to buy something new. This is now combined with breaking a Codex into 2-4 books (perhaps more as the year goes on). Their new tactic is to trying and get people to buy multiple armies as well. So yes, whatever was hot will be useless or neutral compared to something else.

*The truly ironic thing is that if they truly built interesting, BALANCED armies where everything had a niche, sales would stay pretty level and continuous across the product line. Releasing books with units that are entirely pointless all but ensures models are issued which won't sell at the time of issue.

[Defenestratus]

The only point of the shake ups is to stimulate sales, by invalidating what was good and trying to create a rush to buy something new. This is now combined with breaking a Codex into 2-4 books (perhaps more as the year goes on). Their new tactic is to trying and get people to buy multiple armies as well. So yes, whatever was hot will be useless or neutral compared to something else.

*The truly ironic thing is that if they truly built interesting, BALANCED armies where everything had a niche, sales would stay pretty level and continuous across the product line. Releasing books with units that are entirely pointless all but ensures models are issued which won't sell at the time of issue.

YOu know I'd agree with you in the age before the internet - the problem is that some d-bag posts a "killer list" and like sheep, people will just take that list and run with it.

I'm not at all opposed to them granulating the codexes. Chaos players should be really optimistic because there's never been more of a chance of getting legion-specific books with this model. For the first time in a long time I'm considering adding an allied detachment of GK's to my BA army... and that makes me happy because I like the GK Termie models but I never wanted to start a third army.

I referred to the GK as the "+1" army on a new blog that we're starting up. (http://www.unrememberedlegion.com/?p=1371)

[Wolfshade]

Of course shake ups are to generate sales. But then everything GW is to that same end. The horror!

But slightly more seriously, how often did you face grey knights and it was just draigo and paladin wings. With a handful of pysflemen?

If you look through the army lists for grey knights on just this forum you will see loads of examples of almost indentical armies, and you know what, that is kinda boring. So if that changes that, then great!

We also know, that there are people who do buy models without rules or that are "sub-par" because the model looks cool, or because they want to paint it or they are a collector type.

What you cannot expect is a codex released in 6th to fully work in 7th, so of course it should be re-released and updated. Ok this wasn't the codex that everyone was expecting. It seems a little conservative and I hope isn't a mark of the future. I wanted new kits, new shiney things, not just re-rulled existing things. I wanted as surprising as the centurions, or the dreadknight, or riptide etc. though not necessarily a "big" kit. Just something new flavoursome and gorgeously sculpted.

I also disagree about sales being continous across the product line. New things sell better than older things. Otherwise FIFA/Proevo/Madden/F1 n would sell as well as n+1, but they don't. Then there are numbers I doubt anyone would expect to sell the same number of named HQs as Elites.

The argument of balance is a joke, in a game of this level of complexity you cannot achieve balance and also, what you think of balanced another person may not. How many house rules have we seen that have been brought in to achieve a "balance" and yet others have decried as just as unbalanced.

[Charon]

Actually I dont believe in "legion-specific books".
As GW stated that they wont compete with rules/models from FW, HH already has these.
I also think that we will not see new models for units like Noise Marines, as FW already has Kakophoni. You remember when everyone told us that we will get Chaos Knight Dataslates and conversion kits in no time?

[Wildcard]

There are three pressing thoughts on my head now.

First is the ideology of an army book / Codex: It costs standard $, it has units with unique visuals and rules in it and most importantly in this case, the army chosen can manage on its own against any other army there is, given the player has chosen wisely of course.

With all the talks (and more or less proof) that the grey knights have been watered down and the major shortcoming present in the previous incarnation of the codex have not been adressed, you can say with clear conciousness that it is plain wrong.

GK,BA,AM,SM,CSM etc as a full priced codexes have the means (through variety or superiority) to be wielded alone.

Secondly, I've heard lots of arguments that "Grey Knights rely on close combat to open armoured targets".. Well, in the game design lies one broblem:GK are just as fragile/sturdy than any other marine. Even the BA that are considered the most assault oriented army have meltaguns, multi melta landspeeders and so forth, so they are not forced into melee against some heavy armored unit that will hit them before their hammers can swing. And as we know, there is a huge difference in threat to ones safety when shooting and close combat are compared. Oh, and you still need to catch those vehicles by foot in order to assault them.

Third problem is when unit or wargear changes its functionality. Adjusting or tweaking the effectiveness is one thing, but changing the role or purpose is altogether a different thing.
I have 100+ GK PAGs and Terminators/Paladins, most equipped with NF Halberds. And now i am looking at a project, where i have to break the finished models, find the old sprues, new arms and weapons (most likely falchions then), build and paint them. Just because the fundamental change from survivability (hit first) to the hitting power (+1s). And then they give us +2str hammerhand :confused:

Not cool, not cool at all..

/EDIT:
I hardly ever used coteaz or henchmen (ofc i tried them few times out of curiosity), nor did i rely on psyflemen (they were always shot down first anyway). So i used mainly Termies and purifiers, some random Strike Squads and few times paladins on bigger games.

[Caitsidhe]

The argument of balance is a joke, in a game of this level of complexity you cannot achieve balance and also, what you think of balanced another person may not. How many house rules have we seen that have been brought in to achieve a "balance" and yet others have decried as just as unbalanced.


If we were talking about "perfect balance" I would agree with you. The more complex a game the harder that is to achieve. However, we are not talking about perfect balance. We are talking about at least attempting it. For the record, I don't consider 40K that complex a game. I think pretty good balance can be achieved. It is a system based on throwing a D6 and has a limited number of Stats. If costs were standardized to those Stats and a specific value to any special rules which apply across the board, you would end up with getting what you pay for. Some actual game testinging wouldn't hurt. :D It is hilarious that the people who write the rules are also the people who play the game least.

[Xaric]

wish people would stop mentioning balance when ever a new book comes up... as wolfshade said this game is complex over a lot of years want to know what balance try useing the rule books made by GW with no house rules want to know why this is balanced because it is a 3ed party that made the rules giving the rules and not rules genirated by each of the players playing the game because each one could be that kid we all knew at a young age that must always win because of the rules he plays in his house.

[daboarder]

As cait said. No its not that complex. No where near it

[40kGamer]

The base game isn't so complex that it should be so wildly out of balance. It's obvious that GW has no serious interest in balancing their rule system. Paraphrasing a bit - They still refer to themselves as "a model company that just happens to make rules." If they really believe that why don't they release an army with no rules and see how well it sells.

As for the GKs, it looks like they lost some of their flavor, just like the wolves. Now I truly fear how the pen will fall on my Dark Eldar.

[DarkLink]

Nerf?? what is this i call it rebalanced from what i see is people are butt hurt because now they need to use there brain and come up with a list and not use the standard cookie cutter build from the forums people forget GK are a elite army meaning there is meant to be some form of skill to use them also you guys will be dominating the psyker phase vs most army's now.

Basically every single unit in the codex got significantly worse, with the exceptions of Librarians, Dreadknights, Draigo, and Terminators. In case you were confused, getting nerfed means that something got worse. So, by definition, almost the entire GK codex was nerfed. Most of said nerfed units were not particularly good in the first place. Several of them, in fact, were terrible. Terminators weren't very good to begin with, and really only got slightly cheaper while losing psybolt ammo and brotherhood banners, so they only really got slightly better. Draigo, Dreadknights, and Librarians does not a codex make.

Just as important, the FOC layout of the codex is terrible. GKs are a very elite army, and we don't get a lot of units. Filling up your minimum troops and HQ takes up a lot more points for us than for basically every other army in the game, and now we're required to do so to get to any of the good things in the codex. At least the special detachment reduces us to one troops choice, but Strike Squads are terrible now and foot Terminators aren't particularly good so you'll want to invest more than the minimum to avoid just throwing away points, meaning every single list is stuck wasting points on mediocre crap, all because GW wants to force you to use Unbound. That's half the problem with the codex right there.



I heard a lot of GK players cry out for a lord of war lately now you get one i hear some people are complaining about it no way to please people i guess...

Huh? WTF are you talking about? I could have told you a year ago that making Draigo a LOW is bull****, and I would have been as correct then as I am now. Not that I ever heard myself or really any other GK players asking for Lords of War, because GKs don't really run superheavies and we can always take allies for that if we want. So really, not only did we get something we didn't want, but in the process of getting it we lost one of the only good HQ choices in the codex.

I would not have turned down a Doom Dread Nemesis Knight, though. Who wouldn't want a Terminator wearing a Dreadknight wearing a Titan for a Lord of War?




How about this instead of complaining about the new codex before anyone has really played any games with it. Try to think of a positive mindset about the changes after all everything has a reason to why it gets changed its not always well lets Nerf this and this so they buy new models after all everyone who is a GK player already have the dreaded baby carrier also there is not new kits so it cant really be that. Look at what happened to Tyranid players when they got there new book they moaned because there old builds became useless but now they have played it for a wile and have become quite a powerful army.

The codex really didn't change very much, except in a few specific and very important ways. Some wargear just went away and points got shuffled a little bit. This "elite" army with very few units and options just lost options, special rules, and many of the things that made the army functional. The very, very few things that got better only really add up to one or two possible lists. This isn't rocket science. Sure, the internet exacerbates moderate talk into extremist rhetoric, but that does not mitigate the fact that the GK codex took a significant hit when it was already a middle tier codex at best in 6th and 7th. Plus, while most of the internet is mostly just follow the leader when it comes to opinions, there are plenty of competent players who have a solid handle on what is good and what isn't, particularly when they're intimately familiar with a particular army. So dismissing anything anyone says about anyone being even remotely negative is ironically judgmental given your signature.

And Tyranids literally only got good because they got a bunch of brutally awesome formations months after the initial release; their initial clamor was quite justified. They just got another boost from some new Forgeworld units that cover up some key weaknesses in the codex, namely the new and awesome rules for Malenthropes.


wish people would stop mentioning balance when ever a new book comes up... as wolfshade said this game is complex over a lot of years want to know what balance try useing the rule books made by GW with no house rules want to know why this is balanced because it is a 3ed party that made the rules giving the rules and not rules genirated by each of the players playing the game because each one could be that kid we all knew at a young age that must always win because of the rules he plays in his house.

I've found a few lists so far I'm reasonably happy with. That doesn't mean that this was a good release, or that I'm happy with the codex. Beyond those few builds, most everything is pretty bad, or just plain terrible. Where the previous codex had great internal balance where you could make basically every unit work if you wanted, the new codex is split into haves and have-nots. I have nearly a full company of power armor Grey Knights that are just going to sit on the shelf collecting dust now. I might play a unit of Purifiers on occasion, because Cleansing Flame is pretty hilarious. But there are very limited options when you're faced with Eldar, Tau, Daemons, SM Bikers/Drop Pods, etc. That there are at least a few options and that we might be able to figure out one or two more as time goes on is not cause for celebration.

[Xaric]

Nerf really your that delutional to belive that is what nerfing meens... wow did you come from a video game? nerf by factor is changing a rule set in a current edition because it is belived to be overpowered when the thing that is being changed is still in said edition.

Reballanced meens a outdated rule in a older edition considered to be unstable to the new rule set edition you do recall we are now in 7th edition not 6th and this new edition comes with a new phase.

now on to the lord of war when apoc came out and escaltion i heard alot of issues regaurding "where is the grey knights lord of war" some people out right refusing to play games with lord of wars because well grey knights had a hard time when fighting lord of wars without one.

onto your next point maybe they removed stuff for some reason being that those units are in another book or to make the army less overbearing with its rules but that is down to the creators it could also be legal reasons because having no model for a unit in the book could make issues like the chapter house lawsuit. i agree with the point regaurding negitivity but i can do that too dismissing anything anyone says about anyone being even remotely positive is ironic to what you coment on my signature :)

Limited options? the limits are what you see them as if you think outside the box a unit can have more useis then what other people think it could have that is the reason we play thease sort of games to outwit and outplay your foes the problem latly people belive a list should be able to steamroll a player because of its construction heres a exsample i use IK because the model is sexy and they are powerful there was people telling me i was gonna win because knights are OP do you want know what happend turn 2 vs tau he managed to get a unit behind my knight and a riptide that i was going to blow the hell out of infront of me the unit that he got on my flank it blew up the knight in that turn because he put me in a position that i could not defend myself that there was not over powered nore was it broken i call it he outplayed me and won the match because he did somthing i did not expect from a tau player and that there is how people should be playing the game using wits not building a list that have a define perpous like taking heldrakes because you think your going up agienst horde army's versitility is the aim here not define perpous

Sorry about spelling the spell checker site has gone down :(

[Halollet]

Nerf really your that delutional to belive that is what nerfing meens... wow did you come from a video game? nerf by factor is changing a rule set in a current edition because it is belived to be overpowered when the thing that is being changed is still in said edition.

Reballanced meens a outdated rule in a older edition considered to be unstable to the new rule set edition you do recall we are now in 7th edition not 6th and this new edition comes with a new phase.

now on to the lord of war when apoc came out and escaltion i heard alot of issues regaurding "where is the grey knights lord of war" some people out right refusing to play games with lord of wars because well grey knights had a hard time when fighting lord of wars without one.

onto your next point maybe they removed stuff for some reason being that those units are in another book or to make the army less overbearing with its rules but that is down to the creators it could also be legal reasons because having no model for a unit in the book could make issues like the chapter house lawsuit. i agree with the point regaurding negitivity but i can do that too dismissing anything anyone says about anyone being even remotely positive is ironic to what you coment on my signature :)

Limited options? the limits are what you see them as if you think outside the box a unit can have more useis then what other people think it could have that is the reason we play thease sort of games to outwit and outplay your foes the problem latly people belive a list should be able to steamroll a player because of its construction heres a exsample i use IK because the model is sexy and they are powerful there was people telling me i was gonna win because knights are OP do you want know what happend turn 2 vs tau he managed to get a unit behind my knight and a riptide that i was going to blow the hell out of infront of me the unit that he got on my flank it blew up the knight in that turn because he put me in a position that i could not defend myself that there was not over powered nore was it broken i call it he outplayed me and won the match because he did somthing i did not expect from a tau player and that there is how people should be playing the game using wits not building a list that have a define perpous like taking heldrakes because you think your going up agienst horde army's versitility is the aim here not define perpous

Sorry about spelling the spell checker site has gone down :(

I'm sorry, but how do you consider PAGKs being able to use Psycannons effectively, unstable? If that's not a "nerf" then I'll call that a kick in the balls.

And how does taking away things give us the same or more options? Strikes can't use Psycannons worth a damn anymore, same with Purgs. Our diverse CC weapons got hacked to medioctrity. Liked that different weapons did different things and there was debate which to take in what ammonts. Now if you're trying to save points, take a sword, otherwise take flachions and hammers because there's no real point to taking anything else. That's a kick-in-the-balls/nerf or whatever you want to call it.

When Tau came out, here's something new and cool that your army was missing!

When Eldar came out, here's a something awesome and here some new toys to play with!

When Space Marines came out, here's some rules to make your own custom chapter(s) with lots of toys!

Then Nids came out, bland, bring big bugs and walk forward. If you want to do something else, give us more money.

Then Guard came out, removed special rules and tanks galore leaving blandness

Now GKs, more blandness.

Sorry, but the game is still coming down from that high of awesomeness and new toys. When all armies are nothing but stale bread maybe then people will freaking out so much.

[Halollet]

Just had a thought about that psylencer. Instead of trying to knock out a riptide with it, wouldn't it be better going after smaller things to negate their feel no pain? I'm looking at you death company and plauge marines!

[DarkLink]

Nerf really your that delutional to belive thatis what nerfing meens...

So when I say that "nerf" means that a particular unit got weaker, and the definition of nerfed is: " a nerf is a change to a game that reduces the desirability or effectiveness of a particular game element. The term is also used as a verb for the act of making such a change" (wikipedia). Frankly, I'm pretty sure you don't know what nerfed means.


wow did you come from a video game?

Whether your game is played on a computer, console, tabletop, or on paper, the definition of nerfed remains exactly the same.


nerf by factor is changing a rule set in a current edition because it is belived to be overpowered when the thing that is being changed is still in said edition.



Coherent sentences, please.


Reballanced meens a outdated rule in a older edition considered to be unstable to the new rule set edition you do recall we are now in 7th edition not 6th and this new edition comes with a new phase.


Rebalanced just means that something changed, presumably with the intention of either nerfing it or buffing it to maintain balance. Balance doesn't inherently have anything to do with "stability", which I can only assume you use to mean functionality within the rule set. Thing is, Grey Knights had perfectly functional rules in 6th and 7th. There weren't really any outstanding "how does this work" questions. Really, the only FAQs were for the Aegis and what psychic powers each unit generated. And it's not like GW cares if it has nonsensical rules as it is. The new codex was only nominally intended to clean up rules issues. The main intent was to "rebalance" the Grey Knights, but more importantly to give them a release to drive sales.

Regardless, this is an utterly irrelevant point. GW "rebalances" things every single codex. It's simply a thing that happens. It doesn't mean they do a good (or bad) job inherently. You're basically responding to my claim that the new codex is much more limited than the previous one with "but they got a new codex". That's not an argument, just an uninformed statement that really isn't even relevant to the discussion at hand.


now on to the lord of war when apoc came out and escaltion i heard alot of issues regaurding "where is the grey knights lord of war" some people out right refusing to play games with lord of wars because well grey knights had a hard time when fighting lord of wars without one.



News to me. Doesn't matter anyways. We didn't actually get a Lord of War. We got an HQ disguised as a Lord of War. People were pissed off when it happened to Ghaz, and they're pissed off now that it happened to Draigo. You're incredibly obtuse if you think that, by asking for a Lord of War, people actually meant "take one of our only good HQ choices and then swap around his position in the force org chart to make it prohibitively expensive to take him... unless you play our awesome patented Unbound (tm) rules!!!!". And if you're pretending that we should be happy that is very much not in the spirit of what we asked for, when many of us weren't even asking for it in the first place, and then accusing us of being whiny that we're pissed off at it, then you're just being a dick.



Limited options? the limits are what you seethem as if you think outside the box a unit can have more useis then what otherpeople think it could have that is the reason

The limits are what the rules restrict you to being able to do. This game is not rocket science. What you're refering to does in fact exist. Take Genestealers. Genestealers are terrible. Fragile, and generally pretty bad. But, they have a few little tricks they can pull that makes them situationally worthwhile, thanks to Infiltrate and the Broodlord's ability to take psychic powers.

But that requires that you have some sort of special rule or ability or something that you can take advantage of. Without that, you're stuck with the exact same tricks every single other person in the game can pull. Which doesn't work out well when they do it with a unit that is just plain better than yours. That math is pretty easy to do.

When you consider a unit like Strike Squads though, they have absolutely nothing that they can do that you can't do better with something else in the game, or even in the codex. There really aren't any unknowns involved. Their shooting, lacking psybolt ammo and good psycannons, is pretty terrible for their points. For their points, they're only marginally better than Tactical Marines. For any halfway competent player, it doesn't take fifty games of experimentation to figure out that these guys are not very good.

Keep in mind that I've been playing Grey Knights for a very long time now. This is still almost the exact same unit as it was previously, and the same loadout loses Str 5 storm bolters and psycannons are terrible on them, for exactly the same overall points cost. The two things that made them a decent (and I say decent because they weren't amazing) were str 5 storm bolters and psycannons. They lost those two things. They got nerfed (because that is, in fact, what nerfed means), and they did not gain any new special rules or tricks that would allow for any "outside the box" thinking. If there were said options, trust me, us GK players would have found it at some point over the last half a decade and been like "hey, this is a fun little trick you can pull". And, no, the new detachment that lets you deepstrike T1 doesn't help Strike Squads. It just works better with other units.

To replace the string of nerfs, GKs gained effectively no new special rules or abilities that fall into the "unknown quantities" category. The few that did, like the deepstrike detachment, are best used in other ways than trying vainly to make Strike Squads decent (and remember, Purifiers can't deepstrike, so it does them no good).



we play thease sort of games to outwit and outplay your foes


To outwit and outplay your foes, on a level playing field. That last part is kind of important, and completely undermines this part of your argument.


the problem latly people belive a list should be able to steamroll a player because of its construction heres a exsample i use IK because the model is sexy and they are powerful there was people telling me i was gonna win because knights are OP do you want know what happend turn 2 vs tau he managed to get a unit behind my knight and a riptide that i was going to blow the hell out of infront of me the unit that he got on my flank it blew up the knight in that turn because he put me in a position that i could not defend myself that there was not over powered nore was it broken i call it he outplayed me and won the match because he did somthing i did not expect from a tau player and that there is how people should be playing the game using wits not building a list that have a define perpous like taking heldrakes because you think your going up agienst horde army's versitility is the aim here not define perpous




...huh? You mind running that by us in english?

From what I could grasp, it sounds like you're accusing us of complaining because Grey Knights aren't going to auto-table every single army they face. That's just plain insulting. If you think I, and all Grey Knight players categorically, are only in it to to curb-stomp people, you're just being rude. I began playing Grey Knights years before the 5th edition codex, when Daemonhunters were tied with Necrons for being the worst army in the game. When the 5th ed codex came out, I never ran Draigowing or Purifier spam or Acolyte spam or any of the other super-cheesy lists. And the GK's reign ceased the second 6th came out, so any GK bandwagoners have left long ago. Take your insults elsewhere.

In 6th and the beginning of 7th, GKs were a solid mid-tier codex, trending slightly downwards as they aged. We just needed a few cool new toys to play with, and to update some of the units that turned out to be bad in 7th to be rebalanced. Well, they got rebalanced. All those units that were bad before? Now they're worse (which, again, is the precise definition of a nerf, since you apparently don't know what that means). Except Librarians and Dreadknights. They're pretty good now. Not awesome, but pretty good.

So, naturally, we're pretty annoyed about it. So you can take your self-righteous complain-about-complaining attitude elsewhere, at least if you're going to continue to be as disrespectful and insulting (and incoherent) as you have been.







And by the way, while I'm not particularly happy with the new codex, I'm not super angry about it or anything. It only sounds like that because whenever anyone expresses any opinion that's even slightly negative, it's construed as whining and complaining and then people who don't know anything start talking ****. Naturally, the response to said insults is going to sound negative, creating a sort of death spiral. So instead of attacking anyone who has a negative opinion, maybe you should, y'know, not attack them for their opinion just because it's not all sparkles and sunshine.



Sorry about spelling the spell checker site has gone down

That's what elementary school was for.

- - - Updated - - -

It's not really worth the extra effort for killing stuff with FNP, I think. There's not that much of it, really. Unless you know you're going to be facing Plague Marines or something, and in that case you'll still net more points dropping the Daemon Princes. Really, as cool as it sounds on paper, I doubt psilencers will last through playtesting. I don't see the circumstances in which a psilencer is better than a psycannon to come up very often, and the only platform on which they aren't mutually exclusive is the Dreadknight, in which case it might be pretty solid.

[Blood Shadow]

Just for the record, I actually like the new GK codex, is it me or has the fluff section just got massively more informative? Seems like there's more than before?

[DarkLink]

I haven't seen any of the non-rules stuff. And like I said, I've thought up a few lists that I like. I'll be annoyed that a large portion of the codex will just get ignored for the next few years and most of my collection will sit on the shelf, but whatever.

[The Tisroc]

Where can I find the rules that has Draigo making Paladins "objective secured"? I bought the codex today and cannot find that. Perhaps I am going blind. My mother warned me that might happen...

[daboarder]

That would probably be because there isn't one

[The Tisroc]

Page one of this thread indicated there was such a rule and I've been frantically looking for it...

[daboarder]

Was past tense

[DarkLink]

Well, this is awkward...

[daboarder]

So they do or dont go to troops now?

[DarkLink]

They don't go to troops, but I thought Draigo still gave them obsec. Now that I look at his entry, there's nothing there about it.

[fedratsailor]

theres one thing forgotten about Strike squads, Deep strike. I know they don't seem the best option compared to the survival/abilities of terminators, but as cheep 5 man reserve units, they have some possible options especially in maelstrom games.

[DarkLink]

It's not like they couldn't deepstrike before. Just now you can trade obsec for the ability to deepstrike turn 1. Thing is, deepstriking is still terrible for basically anything that's not in a drop pod. You scatter all over the place, you don't have control over when you come on the board, and since GKs are such an elite, low model count army, you can't afford to have a fifth of your army hiding in reserves.

[Blood Shadow]

You know I never notice in codex space marines that DCCW became flat power fists (unwieldy) that affects the Dreadknight too; so now in pretty much having to take the Nemesis greatsword or else be Int 1.

I guess you can choose to make AP Smash attacks instead of using the power fists, but who is going to do that for the small upgrade cost.

Also do psycannons seem really expensive now that they're essentially a 24" autocannon? Autocannons are dirt cheap to those that can take them, seems odd that the psycannon is 3x more in points.

[Xaric]

Page one of this thread indicated there was such a rule and I've been frantically looking for it...

Those was posted before the codex was in the Geniral public so it was expected to take it as a grain of salt

[Xaric]

It's not like they couldn't deepstrike before. Just now you can trade obsec for the ability to deepstrike turn 1. Thing is, deepstriking is still terrible for basically anything that's not in a drop pod. You scatter all over the place, you don't have control over when you come on the board, and since GKs are such an elite, low model count army, you can't afford to have a fifth of your army hiding in reserves.

Wow you are obessiveive over being negitive to most of the things said for one i can say this is rubish what i see here yes deepstriking is risky but if you take the propper steps the risks can be minimized and can be viable to win games for instance reserving vunirbal units that are really strong can save there lifes insted of loosing them because you did not get to go first secondly ever heard of wargear that reducesis scatter or have 0 scatter if they deploy 6 inchis within a unit with say a locator beacon.

I know how to deepstrike because i played a deepstriking army aka daemon's when you useing plaguedrones to get up the field and have models deepstrike near them because the drones have a icon of chaos and deepstriking nurgle plaguebearers having FNP or beasts with IWND being nearly unkillable and making enemys fire all guns at that unit out of panic that if they dont kill them they will assult on the next turn wile the other things in your army can advance up the field and get into possition it can win you games and before you mention but if your unlucky with dice rolls to be honist if your unlucky with dice rolls even without deepstriking you can loose the game...

[daboarder]

Wow you are obessiveive over being negitive to most of the things said for one i can say this is rubish what i see here yes deepstriking is risky but if you take the propper steps the risks can be minimized and can be viable to win games for instance reserving vunirbal units that are really strong can save there lifes insted of loosing them because you did not get to go first secondly ever heard of wargear that reducesis scatter or have 0 scatter if they deploy 6 inchis within a unit with say a locator beacon.


You really don't get who you are talking too do you?

[templarboy]

No ghosts and no servo skulls. Hopefully we get a dataslate for Mordrak before I strip my Ghosts and repaint them......I am happy that Crowe is now an IC. It was stupid that he wasn't before.

[DarkLink]

Don't get me wrong, the new deepstrike detachment is cool, and I'm planning on trying it out. It is really the one big unknown with the new codex that needs to get played with. But with regards to Strike Squads specifically, it doesn't really do much to solve their specific issues (and with Dreadknights and Interceptors, you're better off just deploying them and teleporting to avoid bad luck on reserve rolls and scattering onto things, and Purifiers and Purgation squads can't deepstrike, and Draigo comes with Gate of Infinity, so really maybe it doesn't bring that much to the table after all).

I think the real reason it will be useful is to reduce your minimum troops requirement so you can get to the good stuff in the codex faster. Take a Librarian and a unit of Termintors, then fill up on Paladins, Dreadknights, etc.

[DWest]

You know I never notice in codex space marines that DCCW became flat power fists (unwieldy) that affects the Dreadknight too; so now in pretty much having to take the Nemesis greatsword or else be Int 1.
Unwieldy does not slow the Dreadknight or a Dreadnought down. The full text of the special rule in the 7e book is: "A model attacking with this weapon Piles In and fights at Initiative step 1, unless it is a Monstrous Creature or Walker." Not sure why they went through the trouble of changing things to make them use Power Fists instead of DCCW though, it's not like GW has a problem with having multiple weapons with the exact same profile everywhere else (see Cyclone vs Typhoon Missile Launcher, for one).

[Blood Shadow]

Oh ok thanks for the clarification