Enginseer Using Awaken the Machine on one Sentinel in a squad of 3 confusion

[Xaric]

Ok so me and another person are having a debate does the wording of this rule act like a sort of split fire for instance i have 2 autoguns armoured sentinels and 1 missile launcher armoured sentinel in a squad if a enginseer useis awaken the machine on the missile launcher sentinel would it be able to target another unit?

As the rule states (Awaken the Machine) the Enginseer may choose a single friendly astra militarum vehicle within 12". That vehicle gains the power of the machine spirit special rule.

[Charistoph]

I would say that is a pretty close interpretation. Some main differences is timing, as Split Fire must be done first, while the Machine Spirit doesn't care when it happens.

The only sticky point might be that it calls it out as being a weapon you wouldn't normally fire at full BS, when Walkers just don't care about those limitations. It's a poor sticking point, but it exists, so be aware of it.

[Xaric]

Its more for the use of using the missile launcher one at say a unit of very weak units that i could hit with the blast marker and use the other 2 auto cannons on say a light skimmer.

[thepolytheist]

The only sticky point might be that it calls it out as being a weapon you wouldn't normally fire at full BS, when Walkers just don't care about those limitations. It's a poor sticking point, but it exists, so be aware of it.

This is pretty clear in PoTMS. Since the bonus target only applies to a weapon you couldn't normally fire, it doesn't do anything for walkers.

[Xaric]

This is pretty clear in PoTMS. Since the bonus target only applies to a weapon you couldn't normally fire, it doesn't do anything for walkers.

wait where does it say that for walkers it clearly saids single friendly astra militarum vehicle as PoTMS said may choose one of its guns to fire at another target

[Charistoph]

wait where does it say that for walkers it clearly saids single friendly astra militarum vehicle as PoTMS said may choose one of its guns to fire at another target

Read what I wrote earlier and look at the PotMS rule. The weapon allowed to fire at a separate target is the additional one you are allowed to fire at full BS. Walkers are always allowed to fire at full BS (besides Ordnance and Stunned) when they fire, so there is no "one more weapon" that the Machine Spirit can fire. Therefore, since it doesn't have it, it can't fire it at a separate target.

As I said, it is a sticky point, but not a good one.

The way its written it would be just as useless to an Immobilized, Heavy, or Stationary Vehicle, just like Walkers.

[buggle]

Give it a hunter killer, job done

[Houghten]

Meh, I've often seen stationary Land Raiders use PotMS to fire their "additional" weapon at a different target to the rest of their weapons, even though they can already fire them all, and nobody's ever objected to that. Why then should they object to a Sentinel getting to do the same?

[CoffeeGrunt]

Especially since it'll only miss anyway.

[Tyrendian]

I aggree that PotMS works on walkers - the real question here to me is if that PotMSed Sentinel can fire at a different target than the rest of the squadron. So it 1) has to fire all its weapons at the same target as his buddies and then 2) it gets to fire one at something else. Thing is, then it wouldn't have any weapons left to fire at the original target (well, except for HKs maybe)... hmmm... I'd probably allow in in my games, but that's just me...

[Houghten]

So it fires no weapons at one target (which is totally a thing it can choose to do) and then the PotMS'd weapon at another. What problem?

[Charistoph]

Meh, I've often seen stationary Land Raiders use PotMS to fire their "additional" weapon at a different target to the rest of their weapons, even though they can already fire them all, and nobody's ever objected to that. Why then should they object to a Sentinel getting to do the same?

Experience in previous editions with different wording or where it is not used properly is not the definition of Rules As Written, I'm afraid.


Give it a hunter killer, job done

That really has nothing to do with it. The Walker could have 2000 guns, and none of them would qualify as the "one more weapon than normal" as they can ALL fire normally.

[Houghten]

I think I've established well enough in previous threads that I don't give a flying fish about your ridiculous readings of "Rules As Written."

[Charistoph]

I think I've established well enough in previous threads that I don't give a flying fish about your ridiculous readings of "Rules As Written."

If you care not for the Rules As Written, why bother participating in this forum? The place for your own Homebrew Rules farther down.

[Houghten]

I rather hoped the quote marks and the use of the adjective "ridiculous" would make that clear. "Rules As Written" is just "Rules As Interpreted By Someone Who's Really Sure They're Right."

[Charistoph]

I rather hoped the quote marks and the use of the adjective "ridiculous" would make that clear. "Rules As Written" is just "Rules As Interpreted By Someone Who's Really Sure They're Right."

If you think I am wrong, prove it with the words of the rules, not with how people are running it. That last is precisely "Rules As Interpreted By Someone Who's Really Sure They're Right."

Please note, that I do agree on people playing game how they want to. However, one should be aware of how the rules are presented for those times you meet someone new and can guide them in to your meta, and not automatically assume that everyone plays by your House Rules.

Edit: Just to demonstrate I'm not completely talking out of my arse, here's the rule: "(T)he vehicle can fire one more weapon at its full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted. In addition, this weapon can be fired at a different target unit to any other weapons..." I left out the part about the conditions of not being able to use it and otherwise being a normal shot, and added the bold to point out the significant points.

Is it stupid the way it's written? Probably. Should it be House Ruled to allow for situations where you can fire everything anyway? Again, probably. I do not dispute it. Heck, I would even encourage it. But at least I would recognize it as a House Rule.

[Xaric]

point 1 what if i did this after i have used Awaken the machine on the missile sent then when shooting with the squad and used the 2 autogun sent at 1 target then opt the sent with the missile not to fire but then choose him agien to target another unit because i am classing this new shot as fireing another weapon and thus would be a additional weapon as now in 7th ed you now can select the weapon you are firing instead of how it was in 6th ed.

point 2 what if they can fire all auto cannons at 1 target that is at say 40" but the other sent has a plasma cannon that cant possibly hit due to its range but can hit another target in range technicly its the same as point 1 that it can not fire but your opting it as a new shooting attack using this as a new weapon.

By this interpitation it is choosing another shooting attack and shooting a weapon at another target.

[Charistoph]

point 1 what if i did this after i have used Awaken the machine on the missile sent then when shooting with the squad and used the 2 autogun sent at 1 target then opt the sent with the missile not to fire but then choose him agien to target another unit because i am classing this new shot as fireing another weapon and thus would be a additional weapon as now in 7th ed you now can select the weapon you are firing instead of how it was in 6th ed.

You cannot shoot a weapon twice in the same turn (baring explicit unique special rules, which Power of the Machine Spirit is not one). By sending the Missile first, you are declaring what it's doing. Power of the Machine Spirit does not care when the Shooting Attack is committed, while Split Fire explicitly states to perform the Split shot(s) first, then resolve the rest of the unit's fire against a different target.

If you start by firing the Missile, stop, change your mind, and then fire the Autocannons first, it makes no difference with Power of the Machine Spirit.


point 2 what if they can fire all auto cannons at 1 target that is at say 40" but the other sent has a plasma cannon that cant possibly hit due to its range but can hit another target in range technicly its the same as point 1 that it can not fire but your opting it as a new shooting attack using this as a new weapon.

By this interpitation it is choosing another shooting attack and shooting a weapon at another target.

It's not the choosing another shooting attack/weapon that's the problem nor being able to pick a second target first, it's picking a weapon that you would not normally be able to shoot at full BS. That's the original condition that's the sticking point. A target being out of range is not preventing you from firing at full BS at it, you won't be able to make a shot at all.

[Houghten]

If you think I am wrong, prove it with the words of the rules, not with how people are running it. That last is precisely "Rules As Interpreted By Someone Who's Really Sure They're Right."
Of course it is! That's my whole point! There is, always and forever, only Rules As Interpreted.
Your interpretation just doesn't work. When your interpretation calls for a Land Raider to only be able to target two things if it moved, your interpretation is not sensible and therefore not valid.

- - - Updated - - -


By sending the Missile first, you are declaring what it's doing.

By "missile sent," I believe he meant "missile Sentinel."

[Tyrendian]

If you think I am wrong, prove it with the words of the rules, not with how people are running it. That last is precisely "Rules As Interpreted By Someone Who's Really Sure They're Right."

Please note, that I do agree on people playing game how they want to. However, one should be aware of how the rules are presented for those times you meet someone new and can guide them in to your meta, and not automatically assume that everyone plays by your House Rules.

Edit: Just to demonstrate I'm not completely talking out of my arse, here's the rule: "(T)he vehicle can fire one more weapon at its full Ballistic Skill than normally permitted. In addition, this weapon can be fired at a different target unit to any other weapons..." I left out the part about the conditions of not being able to use it and otherwise being a normal shot, and added the bold to point out the significant points.

Is it stupid the way it's written? Probably. Should it be House Ruled to allow for situations where you can fire everything anyway? Again, probably. I do not dispute it. Heck, I would even encourage it. But at least I would recognize it as a House Rule.

also, everything plus one is kind of still everything, just with a twist. So while I do agree that the way you read it is indeed in the rules as written, I don't think it's the only way that passage can be interpreted, and to me the other way just plain makes more sense while still being covered by RaW.

[Xaric]

You cannot shoot a weapon twice in the same turn (baring explicit unique special rules, which Power of the Machine Spirit is not one). By sending the Missile first, you are declaring what it's doing. Power of the Machine Spirit does not care when the Shooting Attack is committed, while Split Fire explicitly states to perform the Split shot(s) first, then resolve the rest of the unit's fire against a different target.

If you start by firing the Missile, stop, change your mind, and then fire the Autocannons first, it makes no difference with Power of the Machine Spirit.



It's not the choosing another shooting attack/weapon that's the problem nor being able to pick a second target first, it's picking a weapon that you would not normally be able to shoot at full BS. That's the original condition that's the sticking point. A target being out of range is not preventing you from firing at full BS at it, you won't be able to make a shot at all.

OOOOO i get it now just been reading the condition for split fire and yes ok i get it now thanks for clearing that up

[Mr.Pickelz]

Couldn't you "Run" with the Sentinel then invoke Power of the Machine Spirit, to fire the Missile Launcher in the same shooting phase?

[Lord Krungharr]

Couldn't you "Run" with the Sentinel then invoke Power of the Machine Spirit, to fire the Missile Launcher in the same shooting phase?

I was just thinking of that, excellent idea! I think that would qualify as a yes.

[Charistoph]

Couldn't you "Run" with the Sentinel then invoke Power of the Machine Spirit, to fire the Missile Launcher in the same shooting phase?

Unless one has the appropriate allowing one to run and shoot, I don't think so. Running stops all shooting, just like Flat Out does, which disallows PotMS to work.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Plus Running with one Sentinel means running with all of them due to Vehicle Squadron rules.

Given that Leman Russes are Heavy, does this ruling also apply to those? I.e., PotMS means nothing and thus there isn't actually much use for it in this Codex, as the Fliers also do not benefit.

More to the point, do static Land Raiders, the Storm Raven, Talon and Stormfang/Wolf also not benefit, as they also may fire 4 weapons and thus never need Snap Shot one under normal circumstances.

[Charistoph]

Plus Running with one Sentinel means running with all of them due to Vehicle Squadron rules.

Um, not quite. Vehicle Squadron rules do not seem to cover Running at all. The Run rule covers that all by itself.


Given that Leman Russes are Heavy, does this ruling also apply to those? I.e., PotMS means nothing and thus there isn't actually much use for it in this Codex, as the Fliers also do not benefit.

More to the point, do static Land Raiders, the Storm Raven, Talon and Stormfang/Wolf also not benefit, as they also may fire 4 weapons and thus never need Snap Shot one under normal circumstances.

That's one of the funny things about the wording of this rule. I don't know why they had to restrict it to "one more weapon" than you can fire at normal BS. It's also part of what makes this whole thing so sticky.

[Mr.Pickelz]

After reading through the rules for; Running (Pg. 38); Walkers (pg. 90); Vehicle Squadrons (pg. 79); And, the Power of the Machine Spirit (pg. 169)
In the situation with 3 Sentinels, The PotMS would work on the Missile Sentinel after it ran during the shooting phase. However, the Run movement requires the whole squad(unit) of walkers to move, which means the other 2 Sentinels with Autocannons cannot shoot. This would give the IG (AM) player a negative gain by sacrificing the 2 Autocannons so you can move closer with a Missile Launcher. Therefore defeating the purpose of using PotMS to allow the Sentinel Unit to shoot at two different targets.

In My Opinion,
using PotMS on a single Sentinel in a Squadron will hurt you more than help. As noted by the use of it on Flyers and Heavy Vehicles, it is also a waste of the ability. The only Vehicles I can think of PotMS helping is Chimera chassis vehicles (Hellhounds, Basilisks,etc...), and that new Taurox thing. A Medusa that can move up and shoot is a pretty scary thought.