Conscripts in Unbound Armies

[Lord Krungharr]

Hello everyone, can an Unbound Army have lone units of Conscripts wandering around? Or must they be taken as part of a full Infantry Platoon?

Seems like one would need to take the whole Infantry Platoon, but I thought I could be mistaken on that.

What say ye?

[Katharon]

It's technically a requirement. You do have to take the Platoon to take the Conscripts. I was hoping that they would make Conscript squads a separate unit, like they do with Veteran Squads. Would make themed FoC-following armies that much easier to create.

[daboarder]

As Katharon said, unbound means you draw your units from where you like, said units must still follow all their own choice constrictions however.

IE: You still need abaddon as you black legion warlord to take the Bringers of despair

[John Bower]

As Katharon said, unbound means you draw your units from where you like, said units must still follow all their own choice constrictions however.

IE: You still need abaddon as you black legion warlord to take the Bringers of despair

Forgive me if I'm mistaken; I'm breaking from a game and both my RB's are with the game, but doesn't it just say something about using 'any models you like from your collection' but of course a unit is still a unit? However once you pick a platoon each 'part' of that platoon is counted as a separate unit for all game purposes. So my understanding (and again I could be wrong) is that you could grab your conscripts off the shelf and plop them on the tabletop.

[daboarder]

any model you like doesn't mean you can run 4 special weapons in a tac squad....same thing, conscripts are only an option for an infantry platoon with their own inherent restrictions just like the tac squad

other similar restrictions would be death company dreads still requiring 5 death company marines, Dedicated transports too are only an option for a squad not something you can throw down on their own.

[Theik]

I am personally of the belief that you can run conscripts without the rest of their platoon. There is a pretty big difference between running 4 special weapons in a tactical squad (you made a squad with illegal equipment) to using a squad that normally requires a platoon.

Unbound quite literally says "use whichever units from your collection you want."
Is a conscript squad a unit? Yes.
So you can use it, despite the fact that you can normally only do so with a platoon.

Can you give your conscript squad multi-meltas, plasma weapons and a holy hand grenade? No, because that is not a legal unit.

[daboarder]

Unbound never allows you to ignore unit rules/options/restrictions. please quote a rule that states I can ignore the rules for a unit to field any models I wish.

You wish to take the "use any models" to the extreme then yes I may take 4 specials in a Tac squad, as I have those models, however being intelligent we are able to determine that this is indeed not the case and unbound does not mean all structure and rules are ignored. (ie: Allies interaction)

[Captain Bubonicus]

I disagree - "simply use whatever units [emphasis added] from your collection you want" seems pretty straightforward. Your "4 specials in a unit" example is spurious, because the rule specifies units, and not models.

[daboarder]

right, and Conscripts are a unit That has a option which states it may only be taken when other unit are taken, so your point?

Composition: 1 Platoon Command Squad, 2-5 Infantry Squads, 0-5 Heavy Weapons Squads, 0-3 Special Weapons Squads and 0-1 Conscripts Squad. Each Infantry Platoon counts as a single Troops slot on the force organisation chart.

[Katharon]

Unbound quite literally says "use whichever units from your collection you want."
Is a conscript squad a unit? Yes.
So you can use it, despite the fact that you can normally only do so with a platoon.


Except that the Conscript Squads do not become a separate unit until they are deployed on the table. When "purchasing" them with your points for list-building, then they are part of a single unit, i.e. the Infantry Platoon. [See daboarder's post above this.]

[daboarder]

Thanks Kath

[Theik]

Except that the Conscript Squads do not become a separate unit until they are deployed on the table. When "purchasing" them with your points for list-building, then they are part of a single unit, i.e. the Infantry Platoon. [See daboarder's post above this.]

Conscripts:
Unit composition: 20 Conscripts

It says right there that it is a unit. And nothing in that unit entry states that it has to be taken alongside a platoon, only that a platoon may include one squad of conscripts. That's a restriction on the platoon, not on the unit.

The "rule" as far as you can even call it for unbound states that you can take any unit you like. That includes, if you ask me, units that should normally be part of a platoon, as it does not actually mention the requirement, only that you can take any unit you want. Likewise, you could use a unit of Tyrant Guard without a Hive Tyrant, simply because "use any unit you like" trumps "you can take one tyrant guard unit per hive tyrant".

Platoons and command squads are there for providing guidelines on how to make your battleforged army. If a Platoon didn't exist, Imperial Guard players wouldn't be able to field enough troops, because nothing they can put on the table is worth that much in points. That doesn't mean the fact that a unit of Conscripts normally comes in a Platoon (in a bound army) somehow makes it impossible to take them in an unbound army without taking the rest of the platoon, as it clearly states "use any unit you like."

[John Bower]

right, and Conscripts are a unit That has a option which states it may only be taken when other unit are taken, so your point?

Ah well there you have it; it 'counts as' a single troops slot. But it is made up of multiple 'units'. So in an unbound army you could in theory take whatever of those individual 'units' you like. 4 Specials in a Tac squad would be breaking any rules as even unbound doesn't allow that; each unit has to follow it's own restrictions; but not the restrictions on how you choose it. If you think about it your way Guard have a hard time with Kill Team; due to the fact that it's hard to keep even a single platoon within the 200 point limit. but if you take the individual squads using 'unbound' rules; it becomes a lot easier and a lot more fluffy.

[daboarder]

except you dont, you literally may not purchase Conscripts AT ALL, unless you purchase a platoon. THAT IS IN THE UNITS OWN RULES

[Caitsidhe]

Conscripts don't have an "option" they have a listed REQUIREMENT. As others have pointed out, you are still required to observe the requirements of the unit. Conscripts only get on the table a specific way.

[daboarder]

option was a poor choice of words on my part, both you and kath have made the point better than I

[Katharon]

What daboarder means by using "option" is that by taking an Infantry Platoon you have the option to take a Conscript Squad with the Platoon. No platoon? No conscripts. End. Of. Discussion.

[Theik]

I feel like we are argueing in circles here, but here goes:

I want a unit of conscripts in a bound army. Looking at their entry it says you can take up to one conscript unit per infantry platoon, so I have to take the platoon for it.

Now I am playing bound and it says, quite literally, use any unit you like. This replaces the standard requirement of force organisation slots, including the normal method of using platoons.

I understand that you are trying to read-as-written a vague rule as if there was some sort of major thought put into it, but that is just silly. The whole idea for unbound is that you are not bound to standard restrictions for unit selection, and platoons are a standard restriction.

[Charon]

including the normal method of using platoons.

nope. You are free to ignore the FOC but not retrictions on units itself.
No dedicated transport without parent unit. No conscripts without parent platoon.
No Pathfinders without Illic. No Ghost Knights without Mordrak.

[Ssyrie]

I just looked at the rule book and it doesn't say you can ignore restrictions, nor dose it say you can't. What it says is:

"simply use whichever units from your collection you want."

So without an official FAQ there currently is no right answer. Personally though, unclench and quit being such uppity rules lawyers and try to have some fun.

[Theik]

nope. You are free to ignore the FOC but not retrictions on units itself.
No dedicated transport without parent unit. No conscripts without parent platoon.
No Pathfinders without Illic. No Ghost Knights without Mordrak.

Who says you can't take a dedicated transport without a parent unit? I guess you, because the rule clearly doesn't say so. If they have a unit entry in the book, you can use it. Obviously you can't have Pathfinders without Illic, because Pathfinders are not a unit entry, they are simply an upgrade Illic provides to a unit. As for Modrak, I can find a unit entry for them, so I can include them.


The rule literally states, as Ssyrie states, "simply use whichever units from your collection you want.".
Nowhere does it specify that you have to follow ordinary unit restrictions, which everything you have listed are. In fact, the rule also doesn't mention you can ignore the standard force organization chart, so I suppose by your logic, that means you can't ignore it and you are not allowed to take any heavy units without first taking an HQ and 2 troops.


The whole idea behind unbound is that you can take the units you want. Now you are trying to somehow twist this into a real "rule" by adding things that aren't there.

[daboarder]

I really have to wonder if you guys have actually ever read an army list...I mean the ded transport van only be purchased through other unit entries....

The whole idea behind unbound is that you are not bound by FOC not that you can throw out all rules restrictions.

[Ssyrie]

I really have to wonder if you guys have actually ever read an army list...I mean the ded transport van only be purchased through other unit entries....

The whole idea behind unbound is that you are not bound by FOC not that you can throw out all rules restrictions.

The only written rule for unbound is "simply use whichever units from your collection you want."

Unbound is basically Apocalypse on a small scale, and that allowed all sorts of rule breaking with regards to codex restrictions. Remember when Daemon/Witch Hunters had Imperial assassins that said 1 per army, not in Apocalypse. They even created a formation for fielding multiple assassins.

People need to get out of this rigid mindset and lighten up. The game is about fun and trying things out. If I played someone and his Lord Commissar had a Razorback or his Grey Knights had a blob of Conscripts, big deal. There are plenty of fluffy reasons why something like that might happen, and if you've got one I want to hear it.

[daboarder]

and that tells me to ignore unit entries where?

How do you actually purchase Constcripts OR dedicated transports without first purchasing Platoons or other units? (READ THE LIST)

Can you quote rules for that?

NO you cannot


I dont mind house rules and fun, but using that to support your rules argument is the silliest thing you can do.

[Ssyrie]

and that tells me to ignore unit entries where?

"simply use whichever units from your collection you want."

It says I can use whatever unit I WANT. If you don't like the lack of restrictions, don't play Unbound.

[daboarder]

Sorry. Could you please qoute the conscript unit entry, as far as im aware thats the only one with conscript rules....

I mean if you can ignore your own unit entry then surely I can. It would be great to ignore that part of thw unit entry with maximum squad sizes....I meam its a unit I own right?

How about id I run the parasite in my nid list? It doesnt have updates rules...but its a unit I OWN that cool?

[Ssyrie]

Ok, I have found the answer to the OP question.

In the 5th edition codex, all the units in an infantry platoon were marked with an asterisk and on the bottom of the 2nd page the the codex stated: "*Note that the units on these two pages may not be chosen individually - only as part of an Infantry Platoon"

In 6th edition, no such restriction is listed on any of the platoon units. The only restriction is the minimum and maximum of a particular unit you can have as part of an Infantry Platoon and still only count as one spot on the FOC. But it doesn't state you can't buy any of them as an individual unit that would take up a troop choice, even in a Battle-Forged list.

I know it's a RAW vs RAI debate, but the old restriction actually isn't there any more.

Also, the only two rules for purchasing dedicate transports is that they take the same FOC slot as the unit they were bought with and only that unit can start the game inside it. Since unbound doesn't use the FOC the first part is meaningless, and the second just means that your unit will have to start the game outside the transport and board on turn one. It never actually says you can't just buy one because you have the points lying around.

- - - Updated - - -


Sorry. Could you please qoute the conscript unit entry, as far as im aware thats the only one with conscript rules....

Certainly


Each Infantry Platoon may include one squad of Conscripts.
Unit Type:
Infantry
Unit Composition:
20 Conscripts
Wargear:
• Flak armour
• Lasgun
• Frag grenades
Options:
• May include up to 30 additional Conscripts..........3 pts/model

It says you can buy one as part of an Infantry Platoon, but doesn't say you have to. It would just take a troop choice on the FOC to do that.

[daboarder]

And that little selection box for platoons?...thats part of the rules princess

Its not raw vs rai its just deciding to ignore common sense

The rules do not allow you to purchase conscripts that are not part of a platoon. Job done

[Ssyrie]

And that little selection box for platoons?...thats part of the rules princess

Its not raw vs rai its just deciding to ignore common sense

The rules do not allow you to purchase conscripts that are not part of a platoon. Job done



INFANTRY PLATOON
Composition: 1 Platoon Command Squad, 2-5 Infantry Squads, 0-5 Heavy Weapons Squads, 0-3 Special Weapons Squads and 0-1 Conscripts Squad. Each Infantry Platoon counts as a single Troops slot on the force organisation chart.


All it says is what you can put in an infantry platoon to count as a single troop slot. But at no point, unlike previous editions, does it say you can't buy one of those squads individually. In previous editions it specifically said they had to be bought as part of the platoon, it does not say that anymore.

[PaladinSL]

Unbound as I understand it basically just gives you unlimited FOC slots, nothing else changes.

It's going to be personal to every individual however and realistically generally shouldn't matter as unbound is about fun, not competition.

I went the easy route and banned UB at my club, if you want to deviate from the Combined Arms FOC, you need to have a formation datasheet in your hand.

Solved the arguments for me at any rate.

[daboarder]

TROOPS

INFANTRY PLATOON
Composition: 1 Platoon Command Squad, 2-5 Infantry Squads, 0-5 Heavy Weapons Squads, 0-3 Special Weapons Squads and 0-1 Conscripts Squad. Each Infantry Platoon counts as a single Troops slot on the force organisation chart.


Each Infantry Platoon may include one squad of Conscripts.

Thats the ONLY way to include them in your army mate, they do not have an independent unit entry

[Blood Shadow]

You definitely have to take an Infantry platoon to unlock conscripts in an unbound army by the rules, but I see absolutely no issue with making an all conscript list for a fun game as long as you're not loading them with ICs to create 50 man death stars.

and to be honest you'd be only hurting yourself in not taking the other platoon squads

[daboarder]

Unbound as I understand it basically just gives you unlimited FOC slots, nothing else changes.

It's going to be personal to every individual however and realistically generally shouldn't matter as unbound is about fun, not competition.

I went the easy route and banned UB at my club, if you want to deviate from the Combined Arms FOC, you need to have a formation datasheet in your hand.

Solved the arguments for me at any rate.

Its a shame you choose to do that, you can run some cool lists with unbound (I myself run a Chaos Terminator Lists, and really the only change is dropping 100 pts of cultists, so theres nothing to gain there by forcing me into a bound lists)

[John Bower]

I just looked at the rule book and it doesn't say you can ignore restrictions, nor dose it say you can't. What it says is:

"simply use whichever units from your collection you want."

So without an official FAQ there currently is no right answer. Personally though, unclench and quit being such uppity rules lawyers and try to have some fun.

Actually you have it spot on; there is no right answer; it's whatever you and your opponent agree.

[Charistoph]

Actually you have it spot on; there is no right answer; it's whatever you and your opponent agree.

Actually, that last part is always the right answer. The problem is getting people to have an agreement. This can lead to arguments that PaladinSL's club has because they apparently can't just sit down and talk about it first without some heat.


Unbound as I understand it basically just gives you unlimited FOC slots, nothing else changes.

As pointed out, it is written as, "simply use whichever units from your collection you want." It says nothing about the FOC, though it could be heavily implied.


It's going to be personal to every individual however and realistically generally shouldn't matter as unbound is about fun, not competition.

Totally agreed.


I went the easy route and banned UB at my club, if you want to deviate from the Combined Arms FOC, you need to have a formation datasheet in your hand.

Orks and Space Wolves have a Detachment FOC of their own that isn't a Formation, Allied, or Combined Arms, and let's not even get in to the fact that the Inquisition and Imperial Knights don't have Troops to fill the requirements of an Allied or Combined Arms Detachment so have to use their own.

Banning it is a bit harsh, but not having it being used for tournaments your organize is perfectly fine and understandable. But hey, if it's only causing arguments, it's for the peace of the club and those wackos should iron them out before the game starts.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that it is simply just Apocalypse ran small, so someone asking for or agreeing to fighting an Unbound game with me should expect almost anything. If someone wanted to run nothing but Conscripts for an Unbound game, I'd shrug my shoulders and hope I brought enough pie plates and Heavy Bolters.

[Caitsidhe]

Personally, I'm of the opinion that it is simply just Apocalypse ran small, so someone asking for or agreeing to fighting an Unbound game with me should expect almost anything. If someone wanted to run nothing but Conscripts for an Unbound game, I'd shrug my shoulders and hope I brought enough pie plates and Heavy Bolters.

People can always agree to waive any rules or costs. That isn't in question. The standard, however, is that one must pay the required unit cost short of special agreement. Currently, that requires the purchase of that Platoon to get Conscripts. There is no gray area on the matter. The only reason we are even having this conversation is someone wants to pay bargain basement prices for improved troops across the line without doing the unit requirement.

[John Bower]

People can always agree to waive any rules or costs. That isn't in question. The standard, however, is that one must pay the required unit cost short of special agreement. Currently, that requires the purchase of that Platoon to get Conscripts. There is no gray area on the matter. The only reason we are even having this conversation is someone wants to pay bargain basement prices for improved troops across the line without doing the unit requirement.

How pray tell is WS/BS of 2 any kind of 'improvement'? No, what he wants to field is a fluffy list that's made up of conscripts like was fielded in one of the Ghosts books. It was a whole company of nothing but conscripts. And just as if you field them in the TT version they pretty well got mullered.

[daboarder]

do not mix fluff and rules, while said discussions have their place, THIS forum is for discussing how the various hodge podge of rules interact.

And one of those interactions is that Codex rules and requirements trump BRB one.

Conscripts may only ever be purchased in a platoon.

[Katharon]

daboarder is correct. Just like anyone else that has been stating the fact, repeatedly, I would add. If you want to take an army of only Conscripts, then talk to your opponent and see if he or she cares that you'd be breaking the rule requirements in the Codex to be able to do so. If you want to follow the rules of the codex, then do so. What you do is your own concern.

However, because you have asked us here, on the rules forum section for an answer, we have given it to you; and that answer is no, it's not legal. How you choose to handle that answer is irrelevant to the fact.

[daboarder]

Furthermore, Fluff can be "easily" justified, because it is easy to understand that conscripts don't retain their WS/BS2 stats for very long, they either get proficient or they die.

[Charistoph]

People can always agree to waive any rules or costs. That isn't in question. The standard, however, is that one must pay the required unit cost short of special agreement. Currently, that requires the purchase of that Platoon to get Conscripts. There is no gray area on the matter. The only reason we are even having this conversation is someone wants to pay bargain basement prices for improved troops across the line without doing the unit requirement.

That's why I classified it as my opinion, rather than the rules.

This is rather similar to the concept of: "Can I take Rhinos and Razorbacks in Unbound without buying them as a Dedicated Transport?" On one hand, the rules state one thing, that you can take whatever you want in your collection. On the other hand, they won't have a battlefield role and one USUALLY must buy them with another unit.

In the same vein, I do not see a rule in the C: AM that says one must take an Infantry Platoon to get a Conscript Squad, either, but I am running off an old digital version that may not be up to date, and not the hardback. All it says is that it has an Infantry Platoon contains this mix, and all of it counts as one Troops slot.

So, from that perspective, a Conscript Squad could count as a whole Troops Slot choice on its own. Scary.

[Ssyrie]

That's why I classified it as my opinion, rather than the rules.

This is rather similar to the concept of: "Can I take Rhinos and Razorbacks in Unbound without buying them as a Dedicated Transport?" On one hand, the rules state one thing, that you can take whatever you want in your collection. On the other hand, they won't have a battlefield role and one USUALLY must buy them with another unit.

In the same vein, I do not see a rule in the C: AM that says one must take an Infantry Platoon to get a Conscript Squad, either, but I am running off an old digital version that may not be up to date, and not the hardback. All it says is that it has an Infantry Platoon contains this mix, and all of it counts as one Troops slot.

So, from that perspective, a Conscript Squad could count as a whole Troops Slot choice on its own. Scary.

Exactly. It's almost as if the writers just assumed that we would understand that any part of the platoon could only be bought as part of one, without actually telling us directly (as they did in previous editions). And I think everyone knows what happens when you assume something. Also, a dedicated transport is still a transport. You just couldn't have anyone inside when they deploy if not bought with a unit, but you could have them standing next to them to board on turn 1.

List building in unbound should be simple, if you have the points you can buy it. The only exception is allowing two or more of a particular Unique unit.

[Katharon]

The codex in any edition (from 2nd to 6th) has never allowed you to take conscripts without the parent platoon. Ever. I know, I've played IG since 2nd.

Charistoph, when you say "old digital version" I am more than a little worried. GW's digital versions always update themselves with new updates and changes. It sounds like your pdf version -- the provenance of which I will not question here -- is probably a bit skewed or even wrong. Do yourself a favor and just go buy the codex. It's a nice coffee table piece.

As to your assertion that you "do not see a rule in the C: AM that says one must take an Infantry Platoon to get a Conscript Squad," allow me to give you the page number: p. 94 & p. 95.

"Infantry Platoon | Composition: .... 0-1 Conscripts Squad." (p.94)

"Conscripts Squad | Each Infantry Platoon may include one squad of Conscripts." (p.95)

Codex entry, page 36, under the heading of "Infantry Platoons" and NOT "Conscript Squads."


---

Look, I'm sorry, but you lose. There is no ambiguity here. None. Whether you choose to accept that fact is irrelevant to the fact itself. Facts don't change just because we don't like them. And like I said earlier, if your opponent doesn't mind you breaking the Army List rules for creating a unit, then go ahead and field Conscript Squads without their rule-required parent platoon. That's fine for you as long as your opponent also agrees. No one is stopping you. However, it will not change the fact that you are still in violation of the codex requirements.

[Theik]

The codex in any edition (from 2nd to 6th) has never allowed you to take conscripts without the parent platoon. Ever. I know, I've played IG since 2nd.

Charistoph, when you say "old digital version" I am more than a little worried. GW's digital versions always update themselves with new updates and changes. It sounds like your pdf version -- the provenance of which I will not question here -- is probably a bit skewed or even wrong. Do yourself a favor and just go buy the codex. It's a nice coffee table piece.

As to your assertion that you "do not see a rule in the C: AM that says one must take an Infantry Platoon to get a Conscript Squad," allow me to give you the page number: p. 94 & p. 95.

"Infantry Platoon | Composition: .... 0-1 Conscripts Squad." (p.94)

"Conscripts Squad | Each Infantry Platoon may include one squad of Conscripts." (p.95)

Codex entry, page 36, under the heading of "Infantry Platoons" and NOT "Conscript Squads."


---

Look, I'm sorry, but you lose. There is no ambiguity here. None. Whether you choose to accept that fact is irrelevant to the fact itself. Facts don't change just because we don't like them. And like I said earlier, if your opponent doesn't mind you breaking the Army List rules for creating a unit, then go ahead and field Conscript Squads without their rule-required parent platoon. That's fine for you as long as your opponent also agrees. No one is stopping you. However, it will not change the fact that you are still in violation of the codex requirements.

Except you do not have any facts. You read "take any unit you want", believe you read "you have infinite FOC slots and no mandatory slots", and you are now broadcasting your version of unbound as fact, when in fact you have an oppinion based entirely on what you believe unbound should be.

Until a FAQ clarifies what "take any unit you want" means you have no facts whatsoever.

[Caitsidhe]

Until a FAQ clarifies what "take any unit you want" means you have no facts whatsoever.

Wrong. Until there is a Faq which says otherwise, you must apply "rules as written" and per that, you must abide by the listed Unit costs and restrictions. That means the only way to take Conscripts is by taking a Platoon. That is the heart of the matter. Conscripts have a built in restriction in that they only come as part of a different unit. This isn't rocket science. Yes, you may take any unit you want, abiding by that unit's restrictions. Conscripts have a specific requirement, i.e. they come as part of a Platoon. RAW demands that until a Faq or Errata says otherwise, that you must abide by that.

[Theik]

Wrong. Until there is a Faq which says otherwise, you must apply "rules as written" and per that, you must abide by the listed Unit costs and restrictions. That means the only way to take Conscripts is by taking a Platoon. That is the heart of the matter. Conscripts have a built in restriction in that they only come as part of a different unit. This isn't rocket science. Yes, you may take any unit you want, abiding by that unit's restrictions. Conscripts have a specific requirement, i.e. they come as part of a Platoon. RAW demands that until a Faq or Errata says otherwise, that you must abide by that.

Except it doesn't say you can ignore the FOC either, so by your logic you can use any unit, as long as you follow all the normal rules... So you can use any unit as long as you follow the FOC, so.... Hey, you're playing a battleforged army now.

A platoon is NOT a unit, its a FOC entity, a collection of units that takes up one slot. If you do not use FOCs, you also do not use FOC entity collections like platoons.

[Katharon]

A platoon is NOT a unit, its a FOC entity, a collection of units that takes up one slot. If you do not use FOCs, you also do not use FOC entity collections like platoons.

Page 94, under the head of "Infantry Platoon": "Each Infantry Platoon counts as a single Troops slot on the force organization chart."

Ergo, it's a troop choice. The composition of which includes "1 Platoon command Squad, 2-5 Infantry Squads, 0-5 Heavy Weapon Squads, 0-3 Specialist Squads, and 0-1 Conscript Squad."

You have to take the platoon to take the conscripts. Even in unbound. End. of. Discussion.

[John Bower]

Page 94, under the head of "Infantry Platoon": "Each Infantry Platoon counts as a single Troops slot on the force organization chart."

Ergo, it's a troop choice. The composition of which includes "1 Platoon command Squad, 2-5 Infantry Squads, 0-5 Heavy Weapon Squads, 0-3 Specialist Squads, and 0-1 Conscript Squad."

You have to take the platoon to take the conscripts. Even in unbound. End. of. Discussion.

And in the BRB it also says that the rules are guidelines; feel free to change what you like as long as you and your opponent agree. Which since it is in the Rulebook in itself makes it a rule. I would personally have no issues with a whole force of Conscripts. Back in the old codex it did say 'the units on the following pages may only be taken as part of a platoon' but it doesn't say that anymore. Unbound is unbound; per the BRB; take any models in your collection and I'm pretty sure you only have to obey size and points restrictions and of course loadout.

Tactical SM squad with 3 MLs' - illegal; it doesn't follow the restrictions for loadout
Conscript squad consisting of 20 conscripts with lasguns - legal; it follows the normal restrictions for that 'unit'.

[Theik]

Page 94, under the head of "Infantry Platoon": "Each Infantry Platoon counts as a single Troops slot on the force organization chart."

Ergo, it's a troop choice. The composition of which includes "1 Platoon command Squad, 2-5 Infantry Squads, 0-5 Heavy Weapon Squads, 0-3 Specialist Squads, and 0-1 Conscript Squad."

You have to take the platoon to take the conscripts. Even in unbound. End. of. Discussion.

Yes, its a troop slot, nobody disagrees with that. Its not a unit though, so going by strict read as written, you can't even take it.

[Caitsidhe]

Yes, its a troop slot, nobody disagrees with that. Its not a unit though, so going by strict read as written, you can't even take it.

Sure you can, if you take a Platoon. If you don't take a Platoon, I agree... you can't take it. It seems that we have worked this out and surprise... surprise... surprise... the answer was you can't take Conscripts without taking a Platoon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TnkJ8_BmSI

[Katharon]

Sure you can, if you take a Platoon. If you don't take a Platoon, I agree... you can't take it. It seems that we have worked this out and surprise... surprise... surprise... the answer was you can't take Conscripts without taking a Platoon.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TnkJ8_BmSI

You do realize that I've been arguing against the ones that say that they can take Conscripts without the platoon, right?

[Charistoph]

The codex in any edition (from 2nd to 6th) has never allowed you to take conscripts without the parent platoon. Ever. I know, I've played IG since 2nd.

Where in the 6th Edition Codex does it say that? After all, that's the point of this discussion after all.


Charistoph, when you say "old digital version" I am more than a little worried. GW's digital versions always update themselves with new updates and changes. It sounds like your pdf version -- the provenance of which I will not question here -- is probably a bit skewed or even wrong. Do yourself a favor and just go buy the codex. It's a nice coffee table piece.

It's called "too lazy to check for an update." Look it up. I was qualifying my statement in case there was an update since I had last downloaded it. And the hardcover book would have been even far more out of date than the epub I have access to. And why should I spend that much for a hardcover book I won't use when I can buy a Vindicator, Predator, or Vanguard squad with the same monies that I will use? ePubs usually work just fine for reference.


As to your assertion that you "do not see a rule in the C: AM that says one must take an Infantry Platoon to get a Conscript Squad," allow me to give you the page number: p. 94 & p. 95.

"Infantry Platoon | Composition: .... 0-1 Conscripts Squad." (p.94)

"Conscripts Squad | Each Infantry Platoon may include one squad of Conscripts." (p.95)

Codex entry, page 36, under the heading of "Infantry Platoons" and NOT "Conscript Squads."

Okay, and which part is where it says that these squads may only be purchased as part of a Infantry Platoon? I don't seem to see it in your quote. All it is saying is the requirements of an Infantry Platoon and the capacity for a squad to be included in such a purchase.


Page 94, under the head of "Infantry Platoon": "Each Infantry Platoon counts as a single Troops slot on the force organization chart."

Ergo, it's a troop choice. The composition of which includes "1 Platoon command Squad, 2-5 Infantry Squads, 0-5 Heavy Weapon Squads, 0-3 Specialist Squads, and 0-1 Conscript Squad."

You have to take the platoon to take the conscripts. Even in unbound. End. of. Discussion.

That's not what he said. An Infantry Platoon cannot be a single unit in this edition, EVER. It is a minimum of two and a maximum of 15, 21 if you include Transports. A unit in 40K is a separate operating entity. Since a Command Squad will always operate separately from an Infantry Squad or Conscript Squad, it will continue to be a separate unit.

Unbound does not care about Choices, it cares about Units. The only time any restrictions apply to an Unbound army is if you run a Formation, at which point, it is required to run the Formation as described in order to get any attending bonuses.


You do realize that I've been arguing against the ones that say that they can take Conscripts without the platoon, right?

You do realize he quoted someone you were arguing against, right?

[Caitsidhe]

You do realize that I've been arguing against the ones that say that they can take Conscripts without the platoon, right?

Yes. I'm arguing against them too. Basically, he just came around to saying them rules as written that you can't take them at all. :D I disagreed and said you can, "with" a Platoon.

[Caitsidhe]

Unbound does not care about Choices, it cares about Units. The only time any restrictions apply to an Unbound army is if you run a Formation, at which point, it is required to run the Formation as described in order to get any attending bonuses.

Except that Unbound says you must abide by any unit restrictions. These units have a built in restriction, i.e. that they come part of a Platoon. They might Faq/Errata it, but until they do, that requirement is in black and white. It indicates the only way to get Conscripts is via that method. However, if I were to play the Devil's Advocate and try to argue for the other side, I would point out that if the Platoon rule was IGNORED and we can just break them out, that they would NOT count as Troops anymore (not that Unbound cares about such things in general) because the Platoon is the Troop choice, NOT the individual parts. Taking them independent would waive that benefit.

[Charistoph]

Except that Unbound says you must abide by any unit restrictions. These units have a built in restriction, i.e. that they come part of a Platoon. They might Faq/Errata it, but until they do, that requirement is in black and white. It indicates the only way to get Conscripts is via that method. However, if I were to play the Devil's Advocate and try to argue for the other side, I would point out that if the Platoon rule was IGNORED and we can just break them out, that they would NOT count as Troops anymore (not that Unbound cares about such things in general) because the Platoon is the Troop choice, NOT the individual parts. Taking them independent would waive that benefit.

As said before, where does it say this? The only rules quoted so far is how to create an Infantry Platoon and allowing a Conscript Squad to be included in such. Nothing quoted so far states that it is a requirement that any and all such Squads must be purchased as part of a Platoon. As has also been pointed out, this WAS a stated requirement in previous codices.

As a case of previous edition's rules not carrying over, I should also point out that in previous Tau codices any more than one version of a weapon on a suit automatically made it Twin-Linked, but the current codex has no such restriction and the FAQ supported this.



I guess it all boils down to how you define "may".

If you believe "may" is restrictive to, "only in these circumstances", then yes, a Conscript Squad "may" be purchased as part of an Infantry Platoon.

If you believe "may" means, "Have the ability to", "Have Permission to", or "Have the opportunity or permission", then it translates a bit differently to being able to be taken as one, but not restricted to that option.

Now, since I "may" take a Guardsman with a Specialist Weapon, it does not mean I "must" take a Specialist Weapon. So, I believe that answers the definition of "may" as the writers use it.

[daboarder]

How do you even purchase them without buying a platoon show me the rules......you'll see the only entry is part of the platoon army list entry.

Seriously. ...by your logic then you could just take them by themselves in any list because nothing specifies you cant....how silly is that idea? Pretty silly

[Charistoph]

How do you even purchase them without buying a platoon show me the rules......you'll see the only entry is part of the platoon army list entry.

Seriously. ...by your logic then you could just take them by themselves in any list because nothing specifies you cant....how silly is that idea? Pretty silly

It appears on my end just like the Veteran Squad entry, aside from the little entry of being allowed as a member of a Platoon, so it would be a Troops choice. And yes, it would follow that it would work outside Unbound that way, too.

[daboarder]

It appears on my end just like the Veteran Squad entry, aside from the little entry of being allowed as a member of a Platoon, so it would be a Troops choice. And yes, it would follow that it would work outside Unbound that way, too.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOI4OF7iIr4

[Charistoph]

Except it doesnt, its within the "platoon" entry only.

GOD YOU ARE SICKENINGLY WRONG!!

you are trying to seriously argue that Conscripts are their own FOC entry as well?

Thats just too dumb, I think we're done here

As I said, this is what I see on my end. The ePub version may have certain display differences from the hardback. I have mentioned this at least once. This does not make me wrong, just have a different perspective which is attributing to my paradigm. I have not yet been able to look up a hard copy to compare it with as yet.

In the border 3.5 Edition, the Platoon was listed in a box and referenced other units as part of its squad, so far as I remember (it has been a while since I've had the book and even longer since I wanted to reference it).

In 5th, both the Platoon and the squads are written as FOC entries, with an asterisk on the end of every unit name in the platoon. After the Conscripts the description it lists what the asterisk is for: "Note that the units on these two pages may not be chosen individually - only as part of an Infantry Platoon." This has been noted before.

In 6th, on the ePub I find no boxes and no asterisks. The closest it even comes to indicating this as being part of the same Choice besides the aforementioned Infantry Platoon description and squad inclusion lines is the word Troops and chapter heading at the top of only the Platoon Command Squad. Other than that, every single squad entry is written just like every other squad entry in the army list.

However, since you are unlikely to believe my word on this by the above-quoted response, I have taken the liberty of performing screen shots and redacting the stats and points and attaching them here:
10674
10675
10676

[Theik]

Yes. I'm arguing against them too. Basically, he just came around to saying them rules as written that you can't take them at all. :D I disagreed and said you can, "with" a Platoon.

No, i said you can't take a platoon in unbound because a platoon is not a unit.

[Katharon]

mods don't like me right now apparently.

[Caitsidhe]

No, i said you can't take a platoon in unbound because a platoon is not a unit.

Hrm. Interesting argument. I'll have to reread and consider.

[Charistoph]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kffacxfA7G4.

As has been pointed out, just because something has been done in previous editions, does not always carry over in new versions. Ever think that they have allowed this because people want to field the squads separately? In other words, they deliberately want people to pull this kind of bull****. It IS useful for things like Kill Team, as an example.

As further evidence of how they set requirements in a codex, look at how the Servitors are purchase for Engineseer. None of this is listed in the Platoon squads.

[John Bower]

No, i said you can't take a platoon in unbound because a platoon is not a unit.

Unbound doesn't prevent that at all; just because it says you can take any 'units' you like.

I think P121 of TR settles it. First paragraph; and not a direct quote; Sometimes a units army list entry includes an option that will allow you to take multiple units as part of a single slot such as Astra Militarum Infantry platoons; where this is the case all the units are individual entities for all other purposes.

I think the key word is allow it's not a 'you must' but permission to. so nothing anywhere actually prevents you now from taking infantry squads; heavy weapons teams et. al. individually. A platoon is pretty much the first 'formation' if you like that appeared in a codex; except it has no benefits other than having a single troops slot; if anything by taking them on their own all you would do is stymie yourself to less troops but hey that is your decision.

As to unit restricions the only think I could find was under 'battleforged' where said about some units having no 'Battlefield Role'; those units where it says they must have another unit to basically unlock them must be part of the detachment that contains the other unit. So for instance if you take Kharn as your warlord he unlocks Berzerkers as troops; but to get them as troops they can't be part of a 2nd detachment; they have to be in his.

As usual it is all there; everything if you look for it. It seems some of the same people choosing to use the fact that something is no longer printed as an argument for one thing are using a similarly unprinted old rule to prove their argument the opposite way this time.

At the end of the day what is the problem if he want's to bring all Conscripts; Gak me they are WS/BS2 have no options beyond lasguns and a 50 man unit at best. Sure you could take a lot of them in an unbound list >1k but even so; they won't be very useful. A platoon's strength lies largely in it's ability to be merged; and the number of other options it has; heavy weapons and specialists all acting in concert and the fact they take up a single troops slot.

In a BF army that is almost read you would not take the units any other way unless maybe you wanted to play 'kill team'. But in an Unbound army there would be no benefit in having to take a platoon other than the benefit of 'merging' the squads; which you would not be able to do because they wouldn't be part of a platoon if you took them as 'units' instead without taking a platoon.

[Charistoph]

In a BF army that is almost read you would not take the units any other way unless maybe you wanted to play 'kill team'. But in an Unbound army there would be no benefit in having to take a platoon other than the benefit of 'merging' the squads; which you would not be able to do because they wouldn't be part of a platoon if you took them as 'units' instead without taking a platoon.

And the really sad part is, only the Infantry Squads can merge, not the Specialist, Command, or Heavy Weapon Squads, just the Infantry Squads. So even the merging is quite limited.

[John Bower]

Yeah, but in fairness to them you shouldn't need them to; they are support whereas the lowly grunts can be useful as a blob with only their lasguns; FRFSRF on 50 lasguns at 12" can be pretty lethal. Won't make any differ to the HWT's or specialists though; do you see what I mean?

[Charistoph]

Yeah, but in fairness to them you shouldn't need them to; they are support whereas the lowly grunts can be useful as a blob with only their lasguns; FRFSRF on 50 lasguns at 12" can be pretty lethal. Won't make any differ to the HWT's or specialists though; do you see what I mean?

Yes, but how about 95 from one Order? That's just Infantry and Conscripts. Half of a Specialist Squads also carry Lasguns, too. And then there's the possibility of the Command Squad, too. Of course, they'd all have to be in range, but still...

[John Bower]

Yes, but how about 95 from one Order? That's just Infantry and Conscripts. Half of a Specialist Squads also carry Lasguns, too. And then there's the possibility of the Command Squad, too. Of course, they'd all have to be in range, but still...

Actually that was from a single order; and thinking about it would be 150 shots. :)

50 dudes with 3 shots each. On top of that 9 HWT's with autocannons for another 18 S7 shots (they don't get to FRFSRF but hey with that firepower who needs it?) then the special squads can use what they have. It's the strength of the Guard. :)

[Caitsidhe]

Actually that was from a single order; and thinking about it would be 150 shots. :)

50 dudes with 3 shots each. On top of that 9 HWT's with autocannons for another 18 S7 shots (they don't get to FRFSRF but hey with that firepower who needs it?) then the special squads can use what they have. It's the strength of the Guard. :)

Yes and no. I've fought several armies of late built around the principle of spamming shots. The problem is that you don't get them all. There isn't enough room and the army has to spread out Braveheart style. Wily opponents just stack a flank and roll you up. Merely by doing so they put two thirds of your shots out of range. If you crunch your people up close together in huge mobs to try and avoid this to maximize fire, you get pie-plated into oblivion. In short, at least when I play Guard, there seems a point at which there is serious diminishing returns by spamming more bodies.

[Katharon]

There isn't enough room and the army has to spread out Braveheart style. Wily opponents just stack a flank and roll you up. Merely by doing so they put two thirds of your shots out of range. If you crunch your people up close together in huge mobs to try and avoid this to maximize fire, you get pie-plated into oblivion. In short, at least when I play Guard, there seems a point at which there is serious diminishing returns by spamming more bodies.

This comes down to an individual player's ability to effectively deploy and control the movement of his opponent's forces. Clever deployment and planning can be used to fix the problem you presented here.

[Charistoph]

Actually that was from a single order; and thinking about it would be 150 shots. :)

And I was mentioning more as if you could combine the Conscript and Infantry Squads in to one blob and THEN give it FRFSRF. Assuming no Specials or Heavies, and all in double tap range, that would get up to 285 shots from 95 models. And that's not including the Lasguns from the Specialist Squads (if you could combine them as well).


50 dudes with 3 shots each. On top of that 9 HWT's with autocannons for another 18 S7 shots (they don't get to FRFSRF but hey with that firepower who needs it?) then the special squads can use what they have. It's the strength of the Guard. :)

Combined Infantry Squads can only get a maximum of 45 Lasguns for FRFSRF, as the Sergeants do not get them. That reduces it down to 135 Lasgun Shots (assuming all 45 are in double tap range). You can only get 50 Lasguns FRFSRF from Conscripts. But even then, the Infantry Blob will statistically average more damage with only the lasguns than the Conscripts. And that's not considering all the fun stuff like Plasma Guns being added in to the mix.

[Katharon]

Combined Infantry Squads can only get a maximum of 45 Lasguns for FRFSRF, as the Sergeants do not get them. That reduces it down to 135 Lasgun Shots (assuming all 45 are in double tap range). You can only get 50 Lasguns FRFSRF from Conscripts. But even then, the Infantry Blob will statistically average more damage with only the lasguns than the Conscripts. And that's not considering all the fun stuff like Plasma Guns being added in to the mix.

I personally find it ridiculous that Infantry Squad sergeants cannot take a lasgun. It's even in the Uplifting Primer that all Guardsmen below the rank of Lieutenant are required to have a lasgun, with any secondary weaponry depending on the unit and resourcefulness of the individual. They should have had the Sgt. come equipped with a Lasgun, laspistol, and a ccw. But then I guess that was too good for them...bah-humbug.

[Caitsidhe]

This comes down to an individual player's ability to effectively deploy and control the movement of his opponent's forces. Clever deployment and planning can be used to fix the problem you presented here.

Explain? I'm not certain how clever deployment overcomes the requirement for physical space to field a certain number of bodies. No matter how you slice it, a significant number of your Guard are not in range to shoot.

[Katharon]

Control of territory by threat of force combined with an aggressive-reactive stance. With an IG army, you can force an opponent to deploy in certain ways by the placement of your own forces (dependent upon if you deploy first; if second, then how you move in the first and second turns can do the same). Do you want to force any enemy infantry to focus on your left flank instead of your right? Place a few tank (Demolishers or Punishers) combined with a few heavy weapon team squads on the flank which you don't want them to focus upon. Have sacrificial units to act as bait in some situations (small infantry squads, special weapon teams, etc). Deploy combined blob squads in central axis positions to be able to react to any flank.

Those are the kinds of ways you can force an opponent to move according to your wishes. And sure, not every member of a blob squad may be in range to begin with, but that's where the aggressive stances comes into play. Just because you're IG doesn't mean you have to go gun-line every time.

[Caitsidhe]

Control of territory by threat of force combined with an aggressive-reactive stance. With an IG army, you can force an opponent to deploy in certain ways by the placement of your own forces (dependent upon if you deploy first; if second, then how you move in the first and second turns can do the same). Do you want to force any enemy infantry to focus on your left flank instead of your right? Place a few tank (Demolishers or Punishers) combined with a few heavy weapon team squads on the flank which you don't want them to focus upon. Have sacrificial units to act as bait in some situations (small infantry squads, special weapon teams, etc). Deploy combined blob squads in central axis positions to be able to react to any flank.

Those are the kinds of ways you can force an opponent to move according to your wishes. And sure, not every member of a blob squad may be in range to begin with, but that's where the aggressive stances comes into play. Just because you're IG doesn't mean you have to go gun-line every time.

That isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the law of diminishing returns. Spamming lasguns (and compliments) tends to fizzle out because of range and sheer biomass forcing you to deploy in a way you cannot possibly get all the shots on the target, let alone double tap. What you are talking about is entirely beside the point and has nothing to do with the problem that I am talking about.

[Charistoph]

Just a little update on the buying Conscripts separately, since no one who had the book bothered to mention this before now (as apparently yelling and having the post converted to a Bieber nest was preferable), and I finally managed to look at the book.

And it IS a bit different than the ePub I have access to. The hardback book is much like 3.5 Edition book in that the Infantry Platoon is marked out in a block which contains all the Squads inside it (sort of, as it goes over two pages), which is how the Engineseer and Servitors are set up (yeah, I checked them just to make sure there was a link).

Now, this isn't as literal a definition of a combined connection like the previous codex, or one that is as easily translatable over to the simple digital format that the ePub offers, but it is a quite notable symbolic unification of the Troop choice option for those with eyes to see.

So, it largely depends on if you choose to go a more literal interpretation (i.e. only written) or the full symbolic interpretation on which way to go. Personally, I would have no problem with a Conscript squad being fielded as a Troops choice on its own (they were before, and they have the numbers to work it) so long as the opponent talked to me about it first, but the more specialized squads would be more sensibly purchased as part of the Platoon, anyway.

[John Bower]

Just a little update on the buying Conscripts separately, since no one who had the book bothered to mention this before now (as apparently yelling and having the post converted to a Bieber nest was preferable), and I finally managed to look at the book.

And it IS a bit different than the ePub I have access to. The hardback book is much like 3.5 Edition book in that the Infantry Platoon is marked out in a block which contains all the Squads inside it (sort of, as it goes over two pages), which is how the Engineseer and Servitors are set up (yeah, I checked them just to make sure there was a link).

Now, this isn't as literal a definition of a combined connection like the previous codex, or one that is as easily translatable over to the simple digital format that the ePub offers, but it is a quite notable symbolic unification of the Troop choice option for those with eyes to see.

So, it largely depends on if you choose to go a more literal interpretation (i.e. only written) or the full symbolic interpretation on which way to go. Personally, I would have no problem with a Conscript squad being fielded as a Troops choice on its own (they were before, and they have the numbers to work it) so long as the opponent talked to me about it first, but the more specialized squads would be more sensibly purchased as part of the Platoon, anyway.

But that said the BRB P121 does say specifically 'allows' you to. A Platoon no longer forces it on you the way it did in the last codex. I think that is for a good reason as it made it hard for IG players to play 'Kill Team' missions; where anything other than a command and 2 squads would take you over the 200 points very quickly; which was very restrictive on them in that version of the game. I think they realised this and deliberately removed the 'must be purchased as part of... ' to allow individual units to be purchased that way. Then if you look at apocalypse there's a formation there that would entirely break the rules as you can buy just HWT's for it.

[Katharon]

That isn't what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the law of diminishing returns. Spamming lasguns (and compliments) tends to fizzle out because of range and sheer biomass forcing you to deploy in a way you cannot possibly get all the shots on the target, let alone double tap. What you are talking about is entirely beside the point and has nothing to do with the problem that I am talking about.

As I said before, this is a case of deployment and fire-and-movement (aka aggressiveness). /Move/ the /frak/ forward and get your guns into range. Learn to coordinate units and movement properly and you won't have too many problems with "biomass" clogging up the drain.

[Caitsidhe]

As I said before, this is a case of deployment and fire-and-movement (aka aggressiveness). /Move/ the /frak/ forward and get your guns into range. Learn to coordinate units and movement properly and you won't have too many problems with "biomass" clogging up the drain.

And no amount of moving is going to change the fact that more than one body (and unit) CANNOT occupy the same space. Look, I'm not saying that you can't mitigate the problem (you can) but it is a problem. There is a point at which spamming bodies is detrimental, i.e. you cannot possibly get a return on your investment. Worse still, your own troops will be in your own way. I've fought countless engagements against this kind of Imperial Guard Mob against good and bad players. There is only so much you can do because there is only so much deployment space. A smaller army will always be able to stack a flank and effectively reduce your shooting by half (and sometimes two thirds). I know this for a fact because that is what I do; it is tried and true.

I think Imperial Guard (I hate their new name and kind of ignore it) are an excellent army. A properly balanced IG army is one of my toughest matchups. A spammed mob, however, is just a tedious game that I know I'm going to win. There is no getting around the diminishing returns. At a certain point you are just getting in your own way, forced to spread out so far as to lose tactical focus, and hobbling yourself to one of two modes of battle, i.e. gun line (defensive) or go for broke wave after wave of aggressively moving forward in a sacrifrice play (offensive). While I grant you that being forced to deploy in this way does effectively narrow your opponent to deploying in a stacked flank, there isn't much downside for the opponent. Thousands of years of warfare have taught the basic lesson of hitting a large infantry force at a single point of concentration and then rolling them up.

I want to be crystal clear. I do think Imperial Guard benefit from solid numbers. I just think the mathhammer being engaged in earlier is ridiculously optimistic to the point of being unrealistic. You simply will NEVER get all those shots. It is far better to talk about the shooting you will get in a reliable way than some sort of mythical best case scenario which is simply not going to happen. Imperial Guard that I find the hardest to beat have a solid core with ample spam shooting (against a strategic, small area of effect) but are properly dispersed into options which allow them to overlap with blasts, large blasts, air support, and artillery. This in turn, reduces the area required for deployment and gives the Imperial Guard back the options to avoid too much damage from one flank or the other being stacked.

[Charistoph]

But that said the BRB P121 does say specifically 'allows' you to. A Platoon no longer forces it on you the way it did in the last codex. I think that is for a good reason as it made it hard for IG players to play 'Kill Team' missions; where anything other than a command and 2 squads would take you over the 200 points very quickly; which was very restrictive on them in that version of the game. I think they realised this and deliberately removed the 'must be purchased as part of... ' to allow individual units to be purchased that way. Then if you look at apocalypse there's a formation there that would entirely break the rules as you can buy just HWT's for it.

That is why I wrote the last paragraph, it largely goes on how you want to interpret those things. Some people are literal to a fault and cannot/will not consider symbolic meanings that are not specifically called out.

[Caitsidhe]

That is why I wrote the last paragraph, it largely goes on how you want to interpret those things. Some people are literal to a fault and cannot/will not consider symbolic meanings that are not specifically called out.

That is because RAW (rules as written) doesn't require subjective opinion. If you have to consider symbolic meanings (which may mean different things to different people), then it is not RAW.