Would you play in this environment?

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

1850 All But the big guns (All supplements except Escalation)
All codexes and supplements Approved. FW still needs cleared by TOs.

3 Games at 2.25 hours each. There will be a 30 minute break after game 2 for dinner.

Registration starts at 11 AM, Pairings begins at Noon.

Entry Fee: $15 Fully Painted, $20 Unpainted or Partially Painted


House Rules

Grimiore only applies to the Daemon USR (so max of 3++)

Any 2+ rerollable save only saves on a 4+ on the reroll (so 2+ then 4+)

Void Shield Generators can be no larger than a standard CD, Vengeance weapon Batteries bases do make a good stand in.

Skyshield Landing Pads are not strong enough to support Super heavies or Gargantuan Creatures. They may not benefit from the 4++. Non-Skimmer non-flyer vehicles that wish to get onto or off of a Skyshield must make a Dangerous Terrain test.

No "Come the Apocalypse" allies.

Necron Overlords in Catacomb Command Barges do not confer their 3+ to the vehicle but do lose Independent Character.

Forge World will be allowed, but please have a readable way to present to the TO and your opponents. Ipads/tablets/printed copies/books are all fine, they MUST be readable. If you do not have a readable list of the rules, the TOs reserve the right to deny use of a unit. Additionally, please check with TO first to see if a FW unit is approved.

When choosing Warlord Traits, players roll one die and look across all applicable tables (this includes BRB tables, Codex Tables, and Escalation/Stronghold Assault Tables) and chooses the Warlord Trait they want. For example, you roll a 4, you can choose from the options of what a 4 is on the BRB tables, your codex table, or the Escalation/Stronghold Assault tables. You may only choose one.




This is the rules for an upcoming local tournament i am wondering if i should even bother.. i mean no offense but seriously a page of rules and corrections... so now not only do i have to know my 7th edition rules in and out but you want me to remember your house rules?



yes?
no?

[The Tisroc]

Sure. It sounds like fun. I dig how the TOs are taking control of their own gaming destiny! Go for it!

[DarkLink]

You should keep in mind that 40k's rules are so loose, TOs are basically required to houserule things. I don't know why a half-page list is so suprising.

[Rev. Tiberius Jackhammer]

Those rules seem incredibly reasonable to me, not much to remember, and likely improves enjoyment. I'd say go for it, and print it out if you're concerned about remembering it.

[daboarder]

While the rules seem incredibly reasonable (Expect no Come the Apoc alies, there are some really cool army themes you can use that for) they only touch on maybe half the armies out there, I dont see a fix for serpent shield, Jetseers, Tau etc. By makin these hard rules your just changing which army is king of the pile (and not changing even that much).

Better Philosophy:

"Don't be a dick"

[silashand]

I like all of it. Would definitely attend something like it.

[Houghten]

If you want to ban Escalation, remember to also ban the Ork Stompa, since it's a Codex unit now so you don't need Escalation to play it.

Likewise the entirety of the Imperial Knight codex.

[Blood Shadow]

If you want to ban Escalation, remember to also ban the Ork Stompa, since it's a Codex unit now so you don't need Escalation to play it.

Likewise the entirety of the Imperial Knight codex.

In addition:

Why stipulate Super Heavies can't use the sky shield if Super a Heavies from Escalation are banned? This implies that some are allowed...
Why are Jump Troops forced to take a dangerous T test when leaving the sky shield?

Not intentionally shooting holes, but just pointing out home made rulings can create contradictions that don't exist in the normal rules....

Regardless YOLO play in the tournament, 3 games is more than no games.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Why are Jump Troops forced to take a dangerous T test when leaving the sky shield?

Non-Skimmer non-flyer vehicles that wish to get onto or off of a Skyshield must make a Dangerous Terrain test.

[Mr Mystery]

While the rules seem incredibly reasonable (Expect no Come the Apoc alies, there are some really cool army themes you can use that for) they only touch on maybe half the armies out there, I dont see a fix for serpent shield, Jetseers, Tau etc. By makin these hard rules your just changing which army is king of the pile (and not changing even that much).

Better Philosophy:

"Don't be a dick"

Yep. What he said. Got no issue with house rules of any stripe, but in a Tournament condition where Egos are on the line, got to be careful you're not just redefining what a filthy list is :)

[Charon]

Not intentionally shooting holes, but just pointing out home made rulings can create contradictions that don't exist in the normal rules....

Because not all superheavies come from escalation.
Knights and Stompers do exist.

[Caitsidhe]

I agree that it is better to just ban Super Heavies rather than Escalation. Banning the other super heavies while leaving Imperial Knights is inconsistent.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

Or how about you just play the game with the rules they have....I mean I know that's shocking, but maybe just maybe the game will be more interesting more diverse and will allow you to use and grow your collection.... I've already used and played against superheavies and formations their not bad.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Or how about you just play the game with the rules they have....I mean I know that's shocking, but maybe just maybe the game will be more interesting more diverse and will allow you to use and grow your collection.... I've already used and played against superheavies and formations their not bad.

Because Superheavies are designed to have the game revolve around them. Thus any tournament that allows them ends up having its meta revolve around them.

[Mr Mystery]

Dude they're making suggestions is all.

If you want Superheavies, let the points system bring the restriction. If you don't, then it's a flat no to all.

To do otherwise is indeed inconsistent, as a TO likely to just generate whining from those who feel hard done by.

[Wolfshade]

I remember a little while ago, there was a Tournament that allowed superheavies, it hink this was back in erm 5th?

And because of the issue of balance, it meant that the winner was the guy/gal who could get the most super heavy for their points. I think it was won by someone with an eldar flyer IIRC.

More generally, I expect some house rules / "clarifications" in Tournies.

It is best to see them first and decide whether or not to play then to find them out as you go along.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

all their accomplishing is to shift the winners and the losers. by cherry picking who and what is deemed okay and what is deemed evil. heck i dont even play eldar or tau but i do not see a reason o just add restriction after restriction and think that is okay. As soon as To's start to pick winner's and loser's what does that really accomplish? FAQ's are not meant to pick winners and looser's their meant to clarify a rule. if you want the game fixed fix it through missions it's not that hard to do. but instead they simply ban this or ban that and fail to see it has far reaching effects. so they don't do lords or war either.. what do you do with gaz? or how about logan? their moving towards the trend of making special characters lords of war and under their rules their no longer usable. or things like knights and stompas... their in legal codocies yet now your telling me what i can and cannot run out of a core book?

[silashand]

To do otherwise is indeed inconsistent, as a TO likely to just generate whining from those who feel hard done by.

I doubt that. As long as the rules are stated up front who cares? Don't like it, don't attend. Anyone who attends an event knowing they won't like it has issues IMO...

Frankly, let the people who want to run such an event do it if they like. If they get enough players and the attendees enjoy themselves then that's the point of playing. If they don't get enough players then, and only then, should they need to modify their event to attract people.

To those saying it just shifts the winners and losers, oh well. Maybe people are just sick and tired of the same d-baggery all the time and if this forces people to not bring screamerstar, jetseer, etc. then so be it. I am all in favor of that. Contrary to some people's belief, allowing everything does not necessarily make for a more fun environment. Given the comments I have heard from many, many players over the years I would say it actually detracts from the fun for everyone except the players who want to field such d-bag lists. Comp is coming to 40K and I for one am happy about it.

[Caitsidhe]

The issue is simple. You either allow all super heavies or you allow none of them. Allowing Knights while disallowing other super heavies is inconsistent and unfair. For example, a Chaos player only has access to super heavies through Escalation unless he/she takes "comes the apocalypse allies" which isn't as good as the people who don't have to do that. Good Tournament Organizers aren't trying to redistribute wins. They are trying to make the event as fair for everyone as possible. Games Workshop can't be bothered with balance; that leaves it up to local organizers to adjust.

For example, one of the ways I deal with super heavies (not having easy access to Drop Pods full of Sternguard w/Melta or the Command Squads that simulate this) is to use Be'Lakor and juice him with another DP using the Book of the True Names. Since he has a STR-7 and Armourbane, he has a reasonable shot within two rounds of combat of taking a Knight down. The 2+ Invulnerable save gives him a fighting chance against the many, many wounds he is likely to receive from stomps. The changes above (which I would play under) cut back on my most effective counter to Super Heavies.

Good Tournament/Event organizers spend the time required to consider unintended consequences and balance. If Knights are in then the other Super Heavies need to be in. All in or all out.

[Lordofchaos]

If they are going to restrict 2+ re-rollable then why restrict the grimiore. Why the higher fee for unpainted/half-painted armies, are they going to be able to participate in the full prize support? Too many restrictions and some against specific armies is not the way to go, makes those who travel to play want to stay home.

[silashand]

Too many restrictions and some against specific armies is not the way to go, makes those who travel to play want to stay home.

So what? Then they will stay home. And this affects those who choose to attend how?

Besides, I travel to play and I would be happy to attend an event like this.

[bfmusashi]

I would not attend as the Escalation ban seems unfair to me.

[HsojVvad]

Complete UTTER BS! Another play my way or go home. Pick on Necrons and a few others while a lot of other abuse still goes on eh?

Shameful Pathetic and OH SO WRONG.

What's next? 1999+1?

[Eldar_Atog]

The only problem I see with this is not giving a specific list of FW units that can be used. I'm sure the TO will try to avoid being biased but it's inevitable that someone is going to feel like they were treated unfairly.

"Bob got to bring his super-duper uber unit. Why can't I use my uber toy? Bob's toy is clearly more broken than my toy. You always take Bob's side! Why don't we all just give Bob first place now? I bet you and Bob are going on your honeymoon after the tournie."

Heh, I'll probably spend the rest of the day making this argument more and more ridiculous in my head :)

[Mr Mystery]

I'm always concerned/paranoid (probably the latter) that all tweaks do is boost up the local meta.

After all, it's only our local experiences that we tend to have. There may be a couple of filthy armies knocking around that most struggle with, and the obvious temptation is to tweak allowances to prevent those two armies. Risk here is that those from the local area get an unfair advantage, as the stuff which traditionally gubs their forces is shut out.

No reason not to have crack at it though!

[The Tisroc]

Complete UTTER BS! Another play my way or go home. Pick on Necrons and a few others while a lot of other abuse still goes on eh?

Shameful Pathetic and OH SO WRONG.

What's next? 1999+1?

What is the problem? This is one tourney amongst many. It serves it's niche. What is wrong with that? Are you suggesting that all tourneys need to be the same? No TOs should ever tweak their own events? I don't understand where you are coming from. Please explain. Cheers.

PS The lower pricing for fully painted armies is there to encourage and reward folks who bring fully painted armies. I love the idea. I've always wanted to play in a "Painted Armies Only" tournament.

[Anggul]

Complete UTTER BS! Another play my way or go home. Pick on Necrons and a few others while a lot of other abuse still goes on eh?

Shameful Pathetic and OH SO WRONG.

What's next? 1999+1?

If it's their tournament. Yeah. Play their way or go home. They're gone out of their way to organise it, you don't have to play. It's good for people who don't like the whole game revolving around one big model and prefer it to be a game of separate squads positions and fighting it out.

I don't think most super-heavies are overpowered, but I don't particularly enjoy most games revolving around one powerful expensive model either. I personally find it quite boring unless it's, say, a significant part of a narrative campaign rather than every couple of battles in a tournament. If you don't feel that way, go to a different tournament.

[Wargamer30]

Given the cheap entry cost and being able to enter unpainted models (which is great for me:)), I would enter. Most of the house rules don't effect SW anyway.

[Chumbalaya]

Clearly OP has his mind made up, so I'm guessing this thread is a thinly veiled excuse for him to ***** about it.

Those rules sound reasonable to me. 40k needs to be reigned in to even approach playability, especially in an organized setting.

[Caitsidhe]

Clearly OP has his mind made up, so I'm guessing this thread is a thinly veiled excuse for him to ***** about it.

Those rules sound reasonable to me. 40k needs to be reigned in to even approach playability, especially in an organized setting.

The rules sound reasonable enough to me too, except that I think all the super heavies should be out, not just the ones in Escalation. All out or all in. Tournament Organizers dot he work snd setup. If they advertise how they are going to do it, it is fine by me. If I don't like it, I don't go.

[John Bower]

Only thing I can't understand is the DT test for infantry units moving on/off the Skyshield; that seems harsh. After all it has ladders to get up there, and if you think about it; that also means you can't deploy from say a Valk which you could if it wasn't on the Skyshield and that just makes the thing pointless. It already got nerfed in that you must deploy in your zone not your half, so why nerf it more? Other than that I think it's quite a reasonable set of rules; I don't play tourneys as I prefer fluff (sorry but I have done and the minute entrance fees and prizes get involved in a 40k tourney it stops being fun and gets way too serious). I don't understand that as I've played in 2 X-Wing tournaments and they were both still very much about having fun.

[HsojVvad]

If it's their tournament. Yeah. Play their way or go home. They're gone out of their way to organise it, you don't have to play. It's good for people who don't like the whole game revolving around one big model and prefer it to be a game of separate squads positions and fighting it out.


They are still a bunch of whiney babies though. "Oh I can't play against Necrons so they need a nerf" If you want to be taken serious, you adjust ALL Armies. EVERY S I N G L E Army and not just one or two. Adjust everything to be fair. They haven't done it.

So yes they are a bunch of whiney babies. "I spent the time to orginze, You pay me the money, but play my way so I or my friends have an easier time to win."

Said it once, will say it again. When trying to balance the game, you do it for everyone, not single out one or two armies and leave the rest unchanged.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Only thing I can't understand is the DT test for infantry units moving on/off the Skyshield; that seems harsh.

Iff you're gunna critique, please actually read the rule. It says "Vehicle."

Sorry if this come across a bit snappy, but I already quoted this in bold on the last page to someone.