Are Navigators psykers?

[Katharon]

So I recently got into an argument with a friend over whether or not Navigators are psykers or not. He claims that they are simply mutants, end of discussion. I counter argued that they are mutants with a developed gene that gives them psykic latent powers but that they do not manifest them in the same way that a Primaris Psyker wielding warp lightning would. Kind of the whole "all navigators are mutants, but not all mutants are navigators" theme I guess? Anyway, we couldn't agree and so I'm here to see what the larger world at large thinks.

[DWest]

In simplest terms, Navigators are passive, not active. They can see the Warp, and manipulate themselves (or the vessel they're piloting) around the currents of the Warp, but they can't actively generate a Warp Charge. The closest a Navigator comes to an active Psyker-like effect is the Third Eye, which seems to reflect or refract a bit of the Warp when open.

[Wolfshade]

I would disagree with DWest, in one of the HH anthologies a loyalist ship (DA I think) is best by horrors from the warp. A navigator then uses her third eye to perform some kind of witchfire attack on the beasties. Though certainly that and the ability to see the empyrean are all their skills are.

[Mr Mystery]

Yep. 100% Psykers. A specific, stable variant of psykers.

Third Eye attack has always been around, and is filthy!

[Agramar]

Mutants and psykers

[Poseidon]

I forgot which books but several mention them being psychers. The great houses of the navigators have a higher propensity for being psychic and is the only way for them to rise in rank. They don't practice the violent methods but more meditation to see into and through the warp. It's why in several ship books they are the first to be attacked when the gellar field goes offline. The strongest psychic resonance gets attacked first being the best soul for daemons. Also they have the third eye which sees psychically through the warp.
Also link http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Psyker
Although several times I've read of navigators having a small pychic attack.

[Agramar]

I forgot which books but several mention them being psychers. The great houses of the navigators have a higher propensity for being psychic and is the only way for them to rise in rank. They don't practice the violent methods but more meditation to see into and through the warp. It's why in several ship books they are the first to be attacked when the gellar field goes offline. The strongest psychic resonance gets attacked first being the best soul for daemons. Also they have the third eye which sees psychically through the warp.
Also link http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Psyker
Although several times I've read of navigators having a small pychic attack.
Wolfblade is a good source,for example

[bfmusashi]

The Rogue Trader RPG books by Fantasy Flight go into this a fair bit. They're psyker mutants that are hella different mechanically but still drop reality destroying warp fueled doom on fools. I think an analogy is where a psyker is a gateway through which the boundless energy of the warp can be channeled and altered through force of will, a navigator has a much more personal and developed relationship with the warp. It's kind of like a jet engine and a flame thrower, they're very different but it really doesn't matter if you're the guy on fire.

[hyudun]

Really depends on how you define "Psyker" and why you're even asking the question in the first place.

In a strictly semantic sense, I say "no" because a Navigator's powers and vulnerabilities are different from those more commonly considered to be Psykers. E.g. Grey Knights recruit Psykers, not Navigators; Psykers have to be soul-bound, Navigators do not (as far as I've read); you probably need a Psyker for that summoning ritual, not a Navigator; etc.

However, if you ask something like "are Navigators considered Psykers for the effects of a Null Rod/Condemnor stake/Pariah/etc?", then I'd say "yes".

So why does it matter to you/your friend if a Navigator is a Psyker or not?

[DWest]

I was of the impression the Third Eye was more like a Medusa effect though- it just happens while, rather than having to be fired.

[Just_Me]

Navigators are artificially constructed species that taps into psychic energy in very specific ways for very specific purposes. For most intents I would say they are definitely psykers, just of a very different kind than naturally occurring ones.

Consider it this way; both planes (i.e. jets, propellor planes, etc.) and helicopters are aircraft. They operate because of essentially the same principles (airflow, lift, thrust, etc.). However, the way they take advantage of these forces are very different at all but a very basic level and as a result their respective performance and capabilities are radically different. Both can achieve powered flight but each can do things that the other cannot. Actually, a comparison between birds and helicopters might be more accurate in this case, one is naturally occurring and evolved and the other is purely artificial. Again, the most basic forces and principles involved are similar but their functions are incredibly (almost unrecognizalbly) different and don't really resemble each other (nor is a helicopter particularly intended to resemble or replicate birds).

[Morgrim]

The FFG books, in particular the 'Navis Primer' which deals extensively with navigators and astropaths, makes the explicit point that navigators aren't psykers. They're not affected by Nulls or other forms of psykic suppression and they can't benefit from any sort of boost either. They just have what is, in essence, a tiny portal to the Immaterium in their heads. The effects of them aggressively using their warp eye is described as being pretty similar to what any trained sorcerer could do with a naturally (or not) occurring warp rift, just on a smaller scale. Psykers channel the energy of the warp to change reality. Navigators don't change the real world, they just strip away the veil from others.

[Wolfshade]

Hmm, so there we have it official "Not a psyker".

[Lord-Boofhead]

I was of the impression the Third Eye was more like a Medusa effect though- it just happens while, rather than having to be fired.

Nope, that was a **** up by Ian Watson In the Dracco books. Everywhere else states otherwise.

[Pssyche]

As early as Rogue Trader, 40K was very specific about Navigators.
The fluff said "Navigators are Mutants...have the ability to navigate through Warp Space. Although this is a Psychic Ability, Navigators never have other Psychic Powers".
The Rules for rolling up a Navigator's Profile stated "Navigators never have Psychic Powers".


10390

[bfmusashi]

And for a more recent source, just to show consistency, the Rogue Trader RPG specifically says they are not psykers, don't suffer perils, don't use powers the same way, and don't get possessed by daemons BUT anything that affects psykers affects them too. They don't let loose the warp, they express their relationship with it.

[Poseidon]

Wait so you are saying fantasy flight games a completely different company that is leased rights for an rpg is more canon than gamesworkshop. Forge world, and black library... What? I mean I realize that games workshop has gone a little crazy with a few authors. He uses his powers to see into the warp. He's a psycher... Just like every eldar is a latent psycher just because they don't all cast fortune doesn't make them any less a psychic race....

[Dlatrex]

From THH:The Outcast Dead there were two interesting points with Navigator Roxanne Castana


"‘No,’ said Roxanne. ‘I warned you!’

The thug pawing at her belt suddenly spasmed as though a high voltage electric current was passing through him. Blood-flecked froth burst from behind his teeth and his eyes boiled to glutinous steam within their sockets. He screamed and rolled off Roxanne, clawing at his smoking skull and thrashing as though assaulted by a host of invisible attackers.

‘What did you do?’ snarled the second man, scrambling away in terror.

Roxanne sat up and spat a broken tooth, her anger and hurt too powerful for any thoughts of mercy to intrude. She fixed the frightened man with her gaze and, once again, did the very thing her tutors had always warned her never to do."

And later, when she's helping her friend Kai the astropath.


Warmth spread from Roxanne’s hands, passing from her flesh and into his. Her breathing deepened, and Kai felt the touch of her strange manifestation of psychic energy. The Navigators were a breed apart from astropaths, and no one beyond the confines of the Navis Nobilite truly understood the full extent of their powers. Kai’s breathing deepened, and he felt as though his very essence was being drawn into Roxanne....

That said, neither the Astropath nor the 1000 Son seem to detect her with the ease that most Psykers recognize like form. Roxanne also does not act with the same level of revulsion as the other pskyers when encountering the pariah, although the pariah DOES seem to include her when preparing his Animus Speculum.

It looks like they wish to keep the Navigators behind the veil a bit yet!

[bfmusashi]

Wait so you are saying fantasy flight games a completely different company that is leased rights for an rpg is more canon than gamesworkshop. Forge world, and black library... What? I mean I realize that games workshop has gone a little crazy with a few authors. He uses his powers to see into the warp. He's a psycher... Just like every eldar is a latent psycher just because they don't all cast fortune doesn't make them any less a psychic race....

Nope, I was saying it showed consistency on the concept. As Pssyche showed this is how they've been since 1st edition. Using the warp does not make you a psyker, your ability to act as a conduit is. Navigators are not conduits, they perceive local warp conditions and, since it's a place made of emotion and energy that responds to will, make changes. The eldar are a different bucket of worms.
And Black Library is just the worst as a source for anything as basic mechanisms change between books. Can you hear in space? Sometimes. Do warp drives make giant fissures in real space that suck everything around them into the warp? Sometimes. Does Khorne employ librarians? Sometimes.

[hyudun]

They're not affected by Nulls or other forms of psykic suppression.

Well, that destroyed any preconceived notions of similarity I had between the two.

[joosterandom]

I'd say they are, but they're also too far removed from any kind other kind of psychic that it makes sense to just consider them as not.


Nope, that was a **** up by Ian Watson In the Dracco books. Everywhere else states otherwise.

Technically no. The Inquisition trilogy was written around 25 years ago, way before any other 40k novel. The inconsistencies in those books are more because there was nothing to be consistent with when they were written.

[Mordred]

Psycher, just a diferent type. Astropath's and grey Knights are both psychers, but different at the same time.

[Pssyche]

I'd say they are, but they're also too far removed from any kind other kind of psychic that it makes sense to just consider them as not.



Technically no. The Inquisition trilogy was written around 25 years ago, way before any other 40k novel. The inconsistencies in those books are more because there was nothing to be consistent with when they were written.

The first book of the Inquisition Trilogy was released in 1990.
And whilst there may not have been a great deal released at that time, perhaps he could have at least had some consistency with the original source material which had been published some three years before in Rogue Trader and which presumably he'd read.

[David Nagy]

In short- yes, they are. But it's not that simple; a navigator is a very specific, very specialized type of psyker that has the ability to look at a much broader picture. A psyker, specifically, is a front line, immediate weapon. But they are both technically in the same category

[Dlatrex]

Well to keep us current, a bloke just posted this to the BOLS facebook post:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/N/Navigator.pdf

Some excerpts:


Unit
Composition
•1ExpeditionaryNavigator

UnitType
•Infantry(Character)

Wargear
•Archaeotech pistol
•Close combat weapon
•Refractor field
•Ætherlabe staff

Special Rules
•Navigator Powers
•Fear
•Independent Character

Notice any characteristic missing?

It then goes on to to say:



Navigator Powers
Navigators have a range of powers, one of which may be attempted in the phase indicated so long as the Navigator is not engaged in an assault. These powers do not count as Psychic Powers and the Navigator does not use Warp Charge points or have access to any Psychic Disciplines.

Hah hah! Case closed...

...

...


However, the Navigator does count as a Psyker for the purposes of rules that work against Psykers, such as Hatred (Psykers) or weapons that have additional rules against Psykers. In order to use a Navigator power, the Navigator must make a Leadership test. If the test is passed, the chosen power is used as described. If the test is failed, the power is not used and the Navigator and their unit is Pinned (though they do not Go to Ground)

Well damnit. That is about as clear as mud. As I said before, I think that a case could certainly be made that they are a *type* of Psyker if far removed from what we usually think of. That said, GW wants to leave this one obfuscated for now...

[ReveredChaplainDrake]

When I think of navigators, the one that comes to mind immediately is Eurydice Marvellion / Octavia from the Soul Hunter series. In particular, I remember one scene where Ruven (the resident Chaos Sorcerer) makes a mental comment to the effect that he can do with force of will the kind of stuff that Octavia can only do through a genetic fluke. And of course, there's that whole sector-wide psychic screech stunt that Talos pulls by exploiting and weaponizing Octavia's navigator's eye. So strictly speaking, I would say yes, Navigators are psykers, and yes, they can be dangerous. They just usually aren't. Even in that psychic screech event listed above, no one in-universe had ever heard of or even thought of using a navigator in such a way.

If you're talking rules, I would probably say no. After all, by a strict definition of "psyker", every last Eldar, be they Guardian, Aspect Warrior, Ranger, Harlequin (maybe; don't entirely remember how they work) and so on is a psyker. They just aren't trained with their powers in such a way that (1) they could use them in combat, or (2) that their aptitude for psychic powers could make them particularly vulnerable to anti-psyker shenanigans (Perils of the Warp, Culexus Assassins, Shadow in the Warp, etc...). They might be annoyed or aggravated, but nothing so reliably lethal that it can't just be represented by a particularly bad string of luck on one's to-hit rolls.

[Perry K]

I think a distinction needs to be made by whether or not you mean in-game or in-fluff.

First off we also need to have some kind of working definition of a psyker, as the fluff has well established that manifest in a myriad of ways. A basic definition might be "anyone/thing who/that harnesses, uses, accesses or views the warp through some means related to their body and/or mind rather than technology."

Under this definition (supported by referral evidence form the fluff that actually names them as such) Navigators are Psykers. They've been specifically bred to carry a special type of mutation that makes them such.

There are functionally only two sources of psyker power among humans: Mutation and granting of the power by a greater Warp entity (Emperor included). Saying that they are mutants has no bearing on whether or not they are psykers.

In game, the rules tell you fair and square they count as psykers, it's just that their powers were crunch wise designed to be more consistent and also the fact that 30k falls under 6th ed rules technically, they simply bothered to delineate the fact that you don't use them in the psychic phase. Don't confuse expedient crunch for canon lore.

[bfmusashi]

We could also get into the weirdness of whether sorcerers are psykers too, since they affect the warp through ritual and pact instead of innate ability.

[sfshilo]

They are sanctioned psykers. It is all over the fluff...

[bfmusashi]

I think you may be confusing them with Astropaths.

[Xaric]

if that is so then why do the black templars use them arnt they strictly agienst anyone using or seeing into the warp?

[bfmusashi]

In their codex they use astropaths and navigators out of necessity, but exclude librarians.