Daemon Prince Armies broken?

[Blackcloud6]

In the past few months, and especially since the 7th Edition come out, I have yet to see an army with more than one Daemon Prince lose. And all the games I've either played in or watched, the contest is not even close, the daemon Prince Army just slaughters the opposition. All the enhancements one can give the Princes seem to make there nearly impossible to beat; they can swoop in and go about destroying units. Heck, in many of the games, the most damage to the Prince army is caused by perils of the warp.

What does it take to defeat these guys? Do you have to have a list specifically tailored to beat them? What would Space Marines or IG have to do to beat them? I'm to the point to tell my opponents that if they are going to bring more than one Daemon Princes that they have won and I'll just stay home.

[Caitsidhe]

In the past few months, and especially since the 7th Edition come out, I have yet to see an army with more than one Daemon Prince lose. And all the games I've either played in or watched, the contest is not even close, the daemon Prince Army just slaughters the opposition. All the enhancements one can give the Princes seem to make there nearly impossible to beat; they can swoop in and go about destroying units. Heck, in many of the games, the most damage to the Prince army is caused by perils of the warp.

What does it take to defeat these guys? Do you have to have a list specifically tailored to beat them? What would Space Marines or IG have to do to beat them? I'm to the point to tell my opponents that if they are going to bring more than one Daemon Princes that they have won and I'll just stay home.

As someone who always has 2-3 Daemon Princes in his army, I can assure that I lose often enough to be nettling. :D

[Blackcloud6]

As someone who always has 2-3 Daemon Princes in his army, I can assure that I lose often enough to be nettling. :D

How are you getting beat? And which Daemons are you: Slaneesh. Khorne, Tzeentch or Nurgle?

[Demonus]

Recently partnered with CSM with my Chaos Daemons. I took 20 Plague Bearers, Fateweaver, 2 Tzeentch DPs with spells, and 5 screamers. Partner took Nurgle Marines in Rhinos, Hell Drake, a DP of Nurgle, and some bikers. We ended up facing a blood Angels army that was 3 Land Raiders filled with Assault Marines, and 3 Storm Raven gun boats. In the end we quit midway through turn 4 losing by 6 points. Our DPs were getting shot by lots of guns (3+ save seems good at the time but massed fire whittles you down) and then one of my DP despite being kitted out for battle (had invis, grimoire on him, and endurance) almost died from excess instability wounds when my screamers in assault with him vs 20 assault marines got smoked.

Now of course if you are JUST facing DPs and GDs with all spell casters, sure they are quite tough to beat, but Id still say concentrated mass fire to remove 1 at a time is the way to go. They can't invis everybody...

[hyudun]

Massed str 5-7 shooting scare me (as a CSM player fielding 1 or 2 DP's) the most.

Space marines in particular have:
Sternguard (hellfire rounds)
Dakkapreds (autocannon & heavy bolters)
Mortis dreadnought (non-contemptor) (double autocannons & skyfire)
Command squads with plasma/grav guns, especially on bikes (though grav is useless against belakor)
Devastator centurions with heavy bolters and hurricane bolters

IG have:
Heavy weapons teams with autocannons and the ignores cover order
Punisher gatling guns
Vets with a lot of plasma guns

Generally, you'll want to bait them into assaulting a transport or something that will die immediately so you can counter-shoot. I particularly like White Scars since hit-and-run is so useful.

Alternatively, use Terminators w/ TH&SS or get a force weapon (probably a staff or axe to wound reliably).

Either way, your best bet is to bait it rather than try to catch it. You need to be careful and make sure your units are close enough to support each other without exposing your counter-shooting units to the DP's movement & assault radius.

I'm sure there are other options, but the above is what I'd consider to be the most vanilla.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

I don't think they are unbeatable. I will say if your list does not have a counter to flyers let alone monstrous creatures then you will have trouble with them anyway. Personally I go for a balanced all comers list it gives you the tools to handle anything and everything you face.

[Blackcloud6]

I don't think they are unbeatable. I will say if your list does not have a counter to flyers let alone monstrous creatures then you will have trouble with them anyway. Personally I go for a balanced all comers list it gives you the tools to handle anything and everything you face.

What are some counters to monstrous creatures?

[Blood Shadow]

What are some counters to monstrous creatures?

Shooting:
Auto cannons
Missile Launchers
Las Cannons
plasma
Melta
Large squads with rending
Snipers

In CC:
Power fists
Thunder Hammers
Krak grenades
Melta bombs - often not considered but very viable with Henchmen or Melta vets in a suicide squad

Specific tactics are to challenge the MC with the Grimoire of True names from codex: Inquisition

Another would be to take your own MC equivalent, Lysander, Mephiston even Straken can layout the pain

But by far the best tactic is to spend a turn shooting everything you have at it, twin linked las on Landraiders are great, the LR is a DP Magnet, just make sure something heavy is inside it.

[Caitsidhe]

How are you getting beat? And which Daemons are you: Slaneesh. Khorne, Tzeentch or Nurgle?

I use Be'Lakor and Winged Nurgle Daemon Princes. They get brought down (however difficult it may be) with simple volume shooting. Terminators w/Storm Shields also do well as long as the unit is sizeable enough not to be wiped before they get to act. The chief advantage Be'Lakor and Winged Nurgle DPs have is being Shrouded so they always have the option for a 2+ Jink. They are 2+ in Ruins automatically. However, there are ample options to ignore cover. Even when you can't ignore cover, enough shots will bring them down.

[SON OF ROMULOUS]

well there is all of what was listed above as counters but for me its always been weight of fire. small arms fire and a lot of its threatens anything and everything in the game. and with it being most monstrous creatures can be hurt with everything from lasguns to boltguns to shurken weapons there's usually plenty to destroy them. its the same as taking on a unit of 2+ save modesl weight of fire eventually overwhelms any opponent. you can only make so many saves before you mathematically fail one. that and grounding checks on flying monstrous creatures once their brought down their a lot more vulnerable. what i would suggest is focus fire bring down and kill one before you move on to the next target. if you wound all of them but fail to kill them then their still threats.

[Boscolamb]

My first choice to counter DP would be to use a squad of Grey Knight Terminators or Paladins. I also suspect that an IG army loaded down with max. lascannons could also ruin his day. It also depends on how smartly the daemon player protects and screens his DP with lesser units like daemonettes.

Another thing that has lessened the DP effectiveness (IMO) is that in 7th ed. he can no longer go from Swooping to Glide mode (or is that vice-versa?) and still assault in the same turn. That is huge and leaves him vulnerable to fire for a turn (just as if he had used Deepstrike). Of course, in my last game I also used some psyker ability to increase his invuln. save from a 5+ to a 4+. That was fun and new to me!

[Blackcloud6]

My first choice to counter DP would be to use a squad of Grey Knight Terminators or Paladins. I also suspect that an IG army loaded down with max. lascannons could also ruin his day. It also depends on how smartly the daemon player protects and screens his DP with lesser units like daemonettes.

Another thing that has lessened the DP effectiveness (IMO) is that in 7th ed. he can no longer go from Swooping to Glide mode (or is that vice-versa?) and still assault in the same turn. That is huge and leaves him vulnerable to fire for a turn (just as if he had used Deepstrike). Of course, in my last game I also used some psyker ability to increase his invuln. save from a 5+ to a 4+. That was fun and new to me!

But not everyone can, nor should field Grey Knights (not that I've found your's to be useful in our combined games as they stayed on the Ship watching the last quarter of a football game while the Sisters were down on the planet fighting for their very lives waiting for the promised reinforcements... But I digress...).

Also, now it seems there were issues wight Deamonettes being difficult to deal with with all the re-rolls they had.

[Xaric]

Easy way to beat Daemon prince Strength 10 weapons and instant death weapons they do not have eternal warrior so you can one shot them also take a Quad-gun with someone with BS 5

If you hit them at the end of the phase they must take a grounding test this can chip another wound off them also invest in taking a lord of war as daemon prince can be stomped by walkers and the bigger MC.

[Caitsidhe]

Another useful counter is Hammer of Wrath attacks. Bug players using Carnifexes (particularly the shootyfex kind) can move forward and then Hammer of Wrath for a D3 such STR-9 attacks each. Such attacks also hit invisible units which is a good extra counter as my own Daemon Princes are often invisible. So far, I've lost Daemon Princes to Hammer of Wrath attacks made by Carnifexes, Bikers, and even a STR-10 single hit from a Knight.

[Boscolamb]

But not everyone can, nor should field Grey Knights (not that I've found your's to be useful in our combined games as they stayed on the Ship watching the last quarter of a football game while the Sisters were down on the planet fighting for their very lives waiting for the promised reinforcements... But I digress...).

Maybe they were just unmotivated to make their Reserve rolls to rescue the cannon fodder the Sisters were? It would also help if my GK ever actually got a chance to fight actual Daemons. All I ever seem to battle are CSM or Orks. No daemon player ever challenges my GK because they must be so damned awesome and lethal to them (I guess).

[BrianDavion]

But not everyone can, nor should field Grey Knights (not that I've found your's to be useful in our combined games as they stayed on the Ship watching the last quarter of a football game while the Sisters were down on the planet fighting for their very lives waiting for the promised reinforcements... But I digress...).

.


you should be glad, had they shown up they proably woulda killed your sisters and bathed in their blood :)

[daboarder]

Any flier heavy army will drop like a tonne of bricks against a Tau list. the huge volume of fire and ignores cover just shreds them

[Andrew Thomas]

Any flier heavy army will drop like a tonne of bricks against a Tau list. the huge volume of fire and ignores cover just shreds them
Not to mention the easy, risk-free access to Skyfire when you want it.

[jenkatron]

@ original post

What army are you running, it will be easier to say where your best options lie?!