Assault ramps on a flyer

[Ravingbantha]

Forgive me if this has already been discussed before, sometimes my nerd-fu is weak. But what is the point to a flyer being an assault vehicle? A flyer starts in reserve, so comes in turn 2 at best. However units cannot assault the turn they arrive from reserve. So bringing in your flying transport and deploying your assault troops in the same turn just won't happen. You can drop them off and let them charge next turn, but that defeats the purpose of assault vehicles. Or you can hang out in a holding pattern and hope your opponent doesn't focus on your flyer penata waiting to see goodies fall out.

So am I missing something? I've never used an assault flyer before, as my wolves are just now learning to fly.

[Wolfshade]

No, that has summed it up fairly well.

Only you don't need to disembark when you arrive you can move in the flyer and assault from that, protecting the cargo from shooting.

[daboarder]

there is also the skyshield...

[CoffeeGrunt]

If it's not an Assault Vehicle, you can't Charge the turn they exit it anyway. So you'd Fly in Turn 2, get out Turn 3, and Charge Turn 4.

The last one or two Turns are theoretical, because you'd have to be playing a very crappy opponent for there to be anything left to charge after two turns of waiting...

[Kevlarshark]

Actually it seems like the transport version has an assault ramp, the one with the massive coldcannon only has a rear hatch...

Seems the designers are very against assaults where your opponent has no reasonable chance to react. So no assaulting out of pods, outflank, infiltrate, deepstrike or flyers arriving that turn from reserve.

I think now with overwatch (and variable charge length) assaulting the turn you arrive is not as potentially powerful as it once was. Then again when you could appear then assault it was very frustrating for your opponent who usually ended up with his backfield support units in Combat with your assault elements without you having to go through the tactical process of avoiding incoming fire and position them for a charge. Just appear assault.

But if you think assaulting out of a flyer is hard to pull off, try assaulting out of a Rhino!

[CoffeeGrunt]

Given that Dirge Casters exist, a Chaos army could tear through a CQC-incompetent armies' lines without any hope of reacting. I'm not sure how people are still seeing Overwatch as enough to stop, say, a squad of Khorne Beserkers all on its own.

[Caitsidhe]

Forgive me if this has already been discussed before, sometimes my nerd-fu is weak. But what is the point to a flyer being an assault vehicle? A flyer starts in reserve, so comes in turn 2 at best. However units cannot assault the turn they arrive from reserve. So bringing in your flying transport and deploying your assault troops in the same turn just won't happen. You can drop them off and let them charge next turn, but that defeats the purpose of assault vehicles. Or you can hang out in a holding pattern and hope your opponent doesn't focus on your flyer penata waiting to see goodies fall out.

So am I missing something? I've never used an assault flyer before, as my wolves are just now learning to fly.

Your Nerd-Fu isn't that off. You are discerning the built it foolishness of Assault planes. The option to start on the board with a Skyshield helps offset this a "little bit," but overall they are not effective at delivering troops. Nothing that comes from reserves is particularly good for assault because most games are 5-6 Turns long. The math is brutal. Consider:

1. Coming in from reserves the furthest your plane can off load troops is a mere 6" in. It would have to choose to arrive via Hover rather than Zoom and said troops could still NOT assault because they arrived from reserves. :D

2. Coming in Zoom the plane can be 36" forward but the troops can't get out (short of some deepstrike option from the plane).

3. A plane starting on the table could be full deployment forward on the Skyshield and then get another 6" from that before disembarking. This is hardly worth anything since ground troops can walk that far. :D

The current rules, which were dutifully and painfully NOT TESTED worth spit make very little sense. In general, with Games Workshop, the better you are supposed to be in the "fluff" at Assault, the less effective you will be at it on the table. :D Assault vehicles tend to be the least efficient way of getting people across the table. Most of the issue stems from the restriction of not being able to offload if the vehicle has moved more than 6". No matter how you slice your bread, you are looking at Turn 3-4 for your first assault when coming from Reserve. If you start troops on the table, on foot or in a land based assault vehicle, you can (if not blown off the table before reaching the target) assault far earlier.

[Tynskel]

The rules are fine.
They are designed to prevent cheese on a cheese board, and do that quite well.

There has to be risks. If you want to charge out of your flyer, your flyer has to be moving slow enough (i.e. hover) so it is dangerous for the vehicle.
Nothing wrong with that.

Considering Stormravens have a solid amount of hull points, they can work. Like all aspects of the game, you need to give your opponent something else to shoot at the turn you hover.

[Ravingbantha]

The problem is in a real scenario, your opponent is going to find ways to surprise you. There are times you won't have a chance to react. There is none of this in the game, I guess its a matter of opinion. I love surprises, having to react to an unexpected situation. For me this creates the greatest challenge and thus the most fun.

Right now its "I have a transport flyer in reserve, your turn. Now my flyer is on the table, your turn. Now I land and charge you, surprise!!! Bet you never saw that coming did you?"

[Caitsidhe]

The rules are fine.
They are designed to prevent cheese on a cheese board, and do that quite well.

Actually the rules are designed to encourage large armies that sit on either side of the board and shoot at each other, i.e. a higher model count.


There has to be risks. If you want to charge out of your flyer, your flyer has to be moving slow enough (i.e. hover) so it is dangerous for the vehicle.

There are no risks because there are not people doing it. Since the dawn of 6th Edition (and continuing until now) I've seen only ONE plane successfully deliver a cargo of assault troops. :) This is because it doesn't work and most people don't try.


Nothing wrong with that.

There is nothing wrong with it, no. People just don't use them as they are billed. There is a lot of humor in it though, i.e. that assault vehicles are never used as such because of they are utter garbage at doing it. :D


Considering Stormravens have a solid amount of hull points, they can work. Like all aspects of the game, you need to give your opponent something else to shoot at the turn you hover.

Again, no they don't work. They will never work. You appear to have missed the brutal timing and math aspect. If you use them to deliver your expensive, quality assault troops you are ensuring that a significant portion of your army will NOT get into combat sooner than the 3rd or 4th Turn (when the game is already half or more than half over). :D If you are invested in winning the game via assault, this is tantamount to setting a bomb with only a thirty second timer and you have ten stories of stairs to go down before you can get out of the blast radius. :D

[Charon]

Actually that is not entirely true.
There are assault vehicles which are great (Venom/Raider) but the units transported are lackluster.
Then you have the big assault vehicles with solid troops that crouch across the battlefield in a painful slow pace.

The assault flier is in fact a good compromise.
Yes, you probably only arrive at turn 2. But then you safely assault in turn 3 nearly anywhere on the board without exposing your troops or having a vehicle made of wet papertowels.
Is it worth? Probably not.. its still melee. Is it really THAT bad? Not at all.

[Caitsidhe]

Actually that is not entirely true.

Not entirely true? No. But MOSTLY true.

[Charon]

A compelling argument...

[Path Walker]

I can't imagine what its like to have hobby omnipotence like Cait and know how everyone plays the game.

And apparently everyone plays the game in a world where objectives and victory points don't win missions.

[Lord Krungharr]

When one puts an assault flyer on the Skyshield they are not trying to assault 1st turn generally. They aim to assault turn 2, having moved 12", then maybe flat out, in Turn 1. Of course I'd just go with a Land Raider, but it's not altogether a bad idea.

The board zone-pressure that an incoming assault unit can put on an enemy, forcing them to act a certain way. That can be very valuable. Plus many have some shooting they can do as well when they come in. If an army has a bunch of flyers like this it's always good to have something to augment the Reserves Rolls.

Most commonly though, the flyers are great at Zooming in, blowing away something important, and then the dudes inside (or ladies! or things!) take the place of whatever just got destroyed, just on Turn 3.

Assault is certainly very very effective if one can get there. My Chaos Marines vs Tau-dar yesterday proves that. With cover saves and psychic buffs, it can be vastly more devastating than shooting. Flyers are just a different manner of delivery requiring more finesse and proper support/timing.

[Caitsidhe]

I can't imagine what its like to have hobby omnipotence like Cait and know how everyone plays the game.

And apparently everyone plays the game in a world where objectives and victory points don't win missions.

It is very fine. A large portion of my collection was free courtesy of Games Workshop when they used to offer Prize Support. However, I would be remiss in claiming omnipotence. What I have is practical, regular experience. I play often and widely.

[marful]

Given that Dirge Casters exist, a Chaos army could tear through a CQC-incompetent armies' lines without any hope of reacting. I'm not sure how people are still seeing Overwatch as enough to stop, say, a squad of Khorne Beserkers all on its own.
Could you elaborate on this?

I'm trying to figure out how a Dirge Caster (-1 Leadership within 6") is going to "tear" through an army that lacks CQC...

[Demonus]

Dirge Caster stops enemies within 6" from Over Watching.

Not an ideal scenario but you COULD assault on turn 3 if you:

1. Had some TH/SS wolfguard in your flier
2. Flew on in turn 2.
3. Were shot down and survived :)

[Charon]

You can assault on turn 3 anyways (IF you arrive at turn 2)
You arrive at turn 2, can Zoom up to 36" (and possibly 12" - 24" Flat out for 60" movement. Thats basically ANYWHERE on the table)
Turn 3 you switch into hover mode, go up to 6", disembark another 6" and charge up to 2d6"

[DWest]

Given that Dirge Casters exist, a Chaos army could tear through a CQC-incompetent armies' lines without any hope of reacting. I'm not sure how people are still seeing Overwatch as enough to stop, say, a squad of Khorne Beserkers all on its own.
If you're thinking "how is Overwatch going to do enough Wounds for the unit receiving the charge to win the combat?" you'd be correct that Overwatch isn't going to do it, but you'd also be missing the value of Overwatch. This is a situation that actually happened to me at a recent tournament:

My Imperial Guard are huddled up in their deployment zone, holding enough objectives to win the game if they can stay put. The opponent has driven his Land Raider Crusader with 15 Blood Claws and a Wolf Lord over to where he can deliver a charge. Barkies pile out and then declare charge against a Vet squad holding the left flank. Wolf player needs 6" to get into contact. I fire Overwatch, score one kill. Because of the way the Blood Claws are stacked (owing to the terrain in the area, among other variables), losing the front-most model makes the charge distance 7" now. Wolf player rolls 6". Overwatch from a 92 point squad has successfully defeated the charge of a ~350 point squad.

Did I get lucky? Very much so. But most assault squads end up in a sort of lumpy wedge formation (on account of terrain, previous casualties, disembarking rules, and wanting to be spread out to keep from being blast-marker'd to pieces), and so it's usually the case that if you can get 1 kill on Overwatch it adds 1" to the charge distance, and 3 kills adds 3" to the distance.

[Tynskel]

1) I've seen plenty of Stormravens execute hover assaults.
2) People are using them this way (see 1)
3) Plenty of people use assault vehicles of all sorts.
4) and all assault armies pretty much charge on turns 3 or 4. It's been that way for 20 years. Look up Tyranids, Orks, Black Templars, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels, and Space Wolves. Assault is still the major portion of the game for them. Tyranids are a 'top tier' army, contrary to internetz belief. They do it through shooting, and crushing assaults at turns 3 and 4.


Actually the rules are designed to encourage large armies that sit on either side of the board and shoot at each other, i.e. a higher model count.



There are no risks because there are not people doing it. Since the dawn of 6th Edition (and continuing until now) I've seen only ONE plane successfully deliver a cargo of assault troops. :) This is because it doesn't work and most people don't try.



There is nothing wrong with it, no. People just don't use them as they are billed. There is a lot of humor in it though, i.e. that assault vehicles are never used as such because of they are utter garbage at doing it. :D



Again, no they don't work. They will never work. You appear to have missed the brutal timing and math aspect. If you use them to deliver your expensive, quality assault troops you are ensuring that a significant portion of your army will NOT get into combat sooner than the 3rd or 4th Turn (when the game is already half or more than half over). :D If you are invested in winning the game via assault, this is tantamount to setting a bomb with only a thirty second timer and you have ten stories of stairs to go down before you can get out of the blast radius. :D

[Charon]

Look up Tyranids, Orks, Black Templars, Dark Eldar, Blood Angels, and Space Wolves. Assault is still the major portion of the game for them.

Just no. Unless you count Beaststar as a "major portion" it is pretty much shooting all the way.

[Tynskel]

Just no. Unless you count Beaststar as a "major portion" it is pretty much shooting all the way.

Look up Tyranids, Orks, Black Templars, ———, Blood Angels, and Space Wolves. Assault is still the major portion of the game for them.

[LCS]

I have to wonder, is Tynskel just a troll account? He doesn't seem to have a solid grasp of the rules (or game in general) and is always trying to play Devil's advocate.

[Anggul]

Stormravens work as transports because they have flexibility. They have the option of dropping off the squad mid-flight and continuing to be hard to hit and be a gunship. Other flying transports aren't much good because they don't have 'skies of X', so have to hover. It seems to me that a Land Raider is pretty much always better.

[40kGamer]

There are no risks because there are not people doing it. Since the dawn of 6th Edition (and continuing until now) I've seen only ONE plane successfully deliver a cargo of assault troops. This is because it doesn't work and most people don't try.

The only assault flyer I trust to deliver troops is the Caestus. AV13 makes a big difference! :)

[Tynskel]

I have to wonder, is Tynskel just a troll account? He doesn't seem to have a solid grasp of the rules (or game in general) and is always trying to play Devil's advocate.

Caitsidhe, and you are telling me that I 'brought this upon myself'?
Really now?

Seriously, LCS. Cut the crap. I have the rules, and I know them exceptionally well.
Like that Monster Hunter: Unit re-rolls failed To Hit rolls against Monstrous Creatures, and this may be carried over to ICs.
or that: Allies of Convenience: Are enemy models that cannot be targeted, cannot move within 1” of the ally, cannot benefit from anything listed in ‘Battle Brothers’, are affected by attacks that effect ‘enemy’ units within a certain range.
or maybe tenacity the personal warlord trait: where the warlord gains FNP.


or maybe to stay on topic: Assault Vehicle Passengers disembarking can Charge, unless they arrived from reserve.

I am a productive little internet troll. Spawning 5000+ posts on BoLS. If you aspire to be like me, I recommend doing this first:
http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?21435-Tynskel-s-Guide-to-Interpreting-Rules&p=194151&viewfull=1#post194151

[Caitsidhe]

Caitsidhe, and you are telling me that I 'brought this upon myself'?
Really now?

What I am saying (on which I was crystal clear in my previous post) is that I have no pull with any Moderator here. I made no comment to them. I don't even report people when I think they are over the line. If they decided to ban you, they did so because you brought it on yourself and they were doing their jobs. I think I should point out that you are behaving in a manner that will probably get you in trouble again. You are insulting the Moderators, whomever banned you last time in particular, by suggesting that they didn't do their job right and were at my beck and call. I think you should drop the subject and privately go apologize to him/her. Your temper is your own worst enemy. For the record, unlike LCS, I don't think you are a Troll. I just think you are a guy who has a hard time controlling his mouth sometimes. I can sympathize.

[Tynskel]

What I am saying (on which I was crystal clear in my previous post) is that I have no pull with any Moderator here. I made no comment to them. I don't even report people when I think they are over the line. If they decided to ban you, they did so because you brought it on yourself and they were doing their jobs. I think I should point out that you are behaving in a manner that will probably get you in trouble again. You are insulting the Moderators, whomever banned you last time in particular, by suggesting that they didn't do their job right and were at my beck and call. I think you should drop the subject and privately go apologize to him/her. Your temper is your own worst enemy. For the record, unlike LCS, I don't think you are a Troll. I just think you are a guy who has a hard time controlling his mouth sometimes. I can sympathize.


I did forget to apologize for my cover comment about tank traps—the 5+ vs 4+. I usually catch those mistakes before they happen. The tank traps always grant 4+ cover, but, as before are subject to many other rules. Like LoS, etc.

I don't apologize unless it is warranted. If the forum rules are not being applied consistently, there is no case or reason for me to apologize. Many posters in the 'landing pad' thread were consistently breaking the forum rules. Punishing one person makes no sense, especially since there were no warnings from the moderators, not public announcements of bannings (not necessary to mention who was banned, but just stating the banhammer). This is very inconsistent from BoLS in the past. I've seen the moderators, moderate. Recently, both on DISCUS and the lounge, the moderators are not moderating anymore. Apologizing, clearly, there's no benefit to the forum moderators (as they are breaking their own rules), the general posters (because they break the rules as well), nor even myself (because I get ripped on by other posters). It would be—what is called—appeasement, and I don't ascribe myself to that kind of behavior. Instead, I actively point out inconsistencies. Which is what I do in the rules forums, anyhow—point out inconsistent applications of the rules.

I'm pretty sure i'm a troll, but fuzzy at some points. This is my tagline:
QUOTE Jwolf: "Besides, Tynskel isn't evil, he's just drawn that way. :)"

[Caitsidhe]

I don't apologize unless it is warranted.

This might be the kind of attitude that gets you into trouble. Our being here isn't a right, it is a privilege. I'm just saying.


If the forum rules are not being applied consistently, there is no case or reason for me to apologize. Many posters in the 'landing pad' thread were consistently breaking the forum rules. Punishing one person makes no sense, especially since there were no warnings from the moderators, not public announcements of bannings (not necessary to mention who was banned, but just stating the banhammer).

You are making a couple of assumptions here, and we will have to agree to disagree on several of them. I have always found each individual Moderator VERY consistent. Some prefer to give warnings. Some bring the hammer. That individual is within their jurisdiction to decide either. The truth is those being nice with warnings are under no obligation so you shouldn't expect it. We should be playing nice in the first place. You are also assuming that other people didn't get spoken to or banned. Remember, bans are not announced. The only way anyone will know if you were banned (unless I'm missing some Scarlet Letters somewhere) is if you tell them. :D I wasn't aware you had gotten a temporary Ban until a friend of mine mentioned it and you confirmed it here. I've gotten my knuckles rapped here before and it was between me and the Moderators. Since I understand the reality of a Forum and their jurisdiction, I accepted their judgement, apologized for my behavior and moved on. I can get pretty intense in my debates but I do my best to stay within the rules of the site. Sometimes, despite trying hard, we stray. Individual Moderators are consistent, but you might get hit by a Moderator you were not expecting, and thus is better to always reread (in cold blood) posts before hitting submit.


This is very inconsistent from BoLS in the past. I've seen the moderators, moderate. Recently, both on DISCUS and the lounge, the moderators are not moderating anymore. Apologizing, clearly, there's no benefit to the forum moderators (as they are breaking their own rules), the general posters (because they break the rules as well), nor even myself (because I get ripped on by other posters). It would be—what is called—appeasement, and I don't ascribe myself to that kind of behavior. Instead, I actively point out inconsistencies. Which is what I do in the rules forums, anyhow—point out inconsistent applications of the rules.

I'm not sure I follow all of this but it comes down to you NOT being a Moderator and thus you don't get to decide who is and who isn't breaking the rules. That is their gig. It is still my opinion that you are courting another ban by this whole insulting digression. Are you doing it on purpose?

[Tynskel]

This might be the kind of attitude that gets you into trouble. Our being here isn't a right, it is a privilege. I'm just saying.



You are making a couple of assumptions here, and we will have to agree to disagree on several of them. I have always found each individual Moderator VERY consistent. Some prefer to give warnings. Some bring the hammer. That individual is within their jurisdiction to decide either. The truth is those being nice with warnings are under no obligation so you shouldn't expect it. We should be playing nice in the first place. You are also assuming that other people didn't get spoken to or banned. Remember, bans are not announced. The only way anyone will know if you were banned (unless I'm missing some Scarlet Letters somewhere) is if you tell them. :D I wasn't aware you had gotten a temporary Ban until a friend of mine mentioned it and you confirmed it here. I've gotten my knuckles rapped here before and it was between me and the Moderators. Since I understand the reality of a Forum and their jurisdiction, I accepted their judgement, apologized for my behavior and moved on. I can get pretty intense in my debates but I do my best to stay within the rules of the site. Sometimes, despite trying hard, we stray. Individual Moderators are consistent, but you might get hit by a Moderator you were not expecting, and thus is better to always reread (in cold blood) posts before hitting submit.



I'm not sure I follow all of this but it comes down to you NOT being a Moderator and thus you don't get to decide who is and who isn't breaking the rules. That is their gig. It is still my opinion that you are courting another ban by this whole insulting digression. Are you doing it on purpose?

This is getting off topic.
I can start a different thread.