there are no wolves on fenris

[The Last Lamenter]

They keep dropping this phrase all over the universe like it's hugely significant, but I'm missing something here, why do they keep saying it and why is it important? Someone help me. It's like in the text they'll be having a deep conversation that's rife with poetry and myth, then there'll be a lull in the conversation and Someone will say,"there are no wolves on fenris..." And it's like we as readers are supposed to be dropping our jaws in reverent aghast at this bombshell revelation.

[DWest]

The implication is, Fenrisian Wolves are technically deeply devolved Abhumans; the Canis Helix was developed by the first wave of settlers to Fenris in order to engineer the people to survive on the icy death world. Which means, first off, that the Space Wolves aren't space vikings, they're Astartes who recruit from an already-established population of space vikings. Moreover, their Apothecarion never removed the Canis, but rather worked around it, which is why you get the "Wulfen", who are Space Wolves who have semi-devolved as part of their augmentation. Even worse, Thunderwolves are implied to be Wulfen who went all the way feral.

As for the larger implications, it casts the Space Wolves in a bad light, basically making them out to be hypocrites; they punish other forces for deviating from the Imperial Creed, while they themselves are highly deviant. But, this is a trait already present in the Wolves, just look at their unbending hatred of psykers while at the same time making great use of Rune Priests, who are okay because they draw upon the "Wyrd of Fenris", which if that isn't the Warp, then it implies something even worse, that the very rock of Fenris is tainted by Chaos, the same way Caliban was.

On a related note, I wonder if the GW design team will read their own notes, with the new Helfrost stuff; if Rune Priests really do draw on some power innate to their homeworld, then it would make much more sense for Helfrost guns to be basically Psycannons charged with a very specific type of energy, but they'll probably end up being lasers fired through magic ice crystals or similar shenanigans.

[Megad00mer]

The implication is, Fenrisian Wolves are technically deeply devolved Abhumans; the Canis Helix was developed by the first wave of settlers to Fenris in order to engineer the people to survive on the icy death world. Which means, first off, that the Space Wolves aren't space vikings, they're Astartes who recruit from an already-established population of space vikings. Moreover, their Apothecarion never removed the Canis, but rather worked around it, which is why you get the "Wulfen", who are Space Wolves who have semi-devolved as part of their augmentation. Even worse, Thunderwolves are implied to be Wulfen who went all the way feral.


This is what I took away from it as well but it does beg the question, was it just coincidence that the "Wolf-Like" Primarch landed on the world where the population already contained "Wolf-Like" genetics? Seems very convenient since the Primarchs supposedly landed on their homeworlds by chance. In one of the Horus Heresy novels, it's even implied that Leman Russ had canine DNA in him.

Did some force then purposely send him to Fenris, or was it just a million to one coincidence?

[DWest]

Did some force then purposely send him to Fenris, or was it just a million to one coincidence?
Well, aside from the obvious answer of "yes, the Chaos Gods stole all 20 Primarchs and chucked them at planets", you're most likely on to something. The easiest example, of course, is Magnus the Red, who landed on a planet infested with psychic parasites, where his talents with the Warp would be the most useful. Going a bit further, I wonder if the reason some of the loyalists didn't turn was because two or more of the Ruinous Powers were competing over them, and thus neither one influenced the target sufficiently to turn him. Consider Guilliman- in Ultramar he has a society that glorifies martial superiority almost enough to be Khornate, and values faultless perfection almost enough to be Slanneshi, but since Khorne and Slannesh are opposed, did they end up cancelling each other out?

[Mr.Pickelz]

It should also be noted, that Leman's origins involve being raised by wolves. Now whether that is some cool story to help his reputation, or he was raised by Wulfen abhumans remains a mystery. However, Leman Russ clearly has/had genetic stability problems; Rune Priests tap into an ancient power that is inherent to Fenris; The humans who settled Fenris as part of the golden age of exploration had used the Canis Helix as a way of survivability. The Terran legion is hinted at not containing the genetic deviancy as those who are raised on Fenris and recruited into the 6th Legion. IE, the operation and conversion into Space Marines activates and manipulates the Canis Helix in such a fashion as to cause physical underlying mutation. This can be seen in the elongated fangs, the extra body hair, the attitude/social culture, etc.... This mutation often brings them into argument/war with the Inquistion and Ecclesiarchy, as such mutation is attributed to chaos influence.
To the Space Wolves however, this Geneticly empowering "upgrade", from human to space marine, isn't tolerated in certain individuals, thus they become Wulfen (aka werewolf looking fellows) Some individual's mutation however, ends up going the extra length and turns a human into a super wolf, known as Fenrisian Wolves (aka, the Fast Attack unit choice). When Magnus the Red spoke those words,"There are no Wolves on Fenris..." he basically told that all the wolves that are attributed to Fenris are actually people with genetic issues, and if you can put two and two together, the biggest wolves are indeed "fallen" Space Marines (aka, Thunderwolf mounts, "Space Marines riding Space Marines"). This dark secret has shaped the Space Wolf legion/chapter and one reason the Wolf Brothers successor chapter of the Space Wolves was deemed Exterminatus. Thus leaving the Space Wolf Legion (which was already one of the smaller legions) no successor chapters. This leads to the Space Wolves having the potential to utilize the strength of an Astartes Legion, which in conjunction with the genetic deviancy, brings the Space Wolves into discord/distrust/dislike/etc... with certain Imperial organizations.

So basically, We as readers/players already knew that the Space Wolves are allowed to exist while giving the finger to the rules and the people enforcing them. Now however, Magnus the Red dropped this big secret in stating that the Space Wolves have even more, and bigger, issues than anyone previously knew about. (players/readers and/or non-Space Wolf forces)

Something to note is that, the 13th Company, the black stone, the forgotten. Show a high quantity of mutation (werewolf units) after being ordered by Leman Russ to chase the Thousand Sons around the Eye of Terror. Which the 13th company has managed to survive at until the 13th Black Crusade. They even took part in the World wide Campaign and if you can find the Eye of Terror codex, you will find the 13th company's rules inside. If you read Ragnar's books by William King and Lee something-or-another, Ragnar meets the 13th company and requires their help to achieve his goal. it is noted there as well, that the 13th Company showcases the best-case scenario for someone who falls victim to the Wulfen issue.

[daboarder]

This is what I took away from it as well but it does beg the question, was it just coincidence that the "Wolf-Like" Primarch landed on the world where the population already contained "Wolf-Like" genetics? Seems very convenient since the Primarchs supposedly landed on their homeworlds by chance. In one of the Horus Heresy novels, it's even implied that Leman Russ had canine DNA in him.

Did some force then purposely send him to Fenris, or was it just a million to one coincidence?
Probably not, there is no coincidence or random in chaos.

[This Dave]

This is what I took away from it as well but it does beg the question, was it just coincidence that the "Wolf-Like" Primarch landed on the world where the population already contained "Wolf-Like" genetics? Seems very convenient since the Primarchs supposedly landed on their homeworlds by chance. In one of the Horus Heresy novels, it's even implied that Leman Russ had canine DNA in him.

Did some force then purposely send him to Fenris, or was it just a million to one coincidence?

This is just a personal theory so do with it what you will. When the Chaos Gods stole the Primarchs they were still in their gestation tubes and weren't fully "cooked" yet. So when these tubes landed on the various planets they finished infusing the Primarchs with the local DNA. This is why all of them seem to be precisely suited to the planet they landed on. Russ is wolf-like, Magnus became a powerful Psyker, Guilliman became a space Roman, Cruze became Batman, etc.

If this is indeed the case it makes total sense why the Chaos Gods wanted them away from the Emperor. Can you imagine if all 20 of them took on His aspects?

[John Bower]

The implication is, Fenrisian Wolves are technically deeply devolved Abhumans; the Canis Helix was developed by the first wave of settlers to Fenris in order to engineer the people to survive on the icy death world. Which means, first off, that the Space Wolves aren't space vikings, they're Astartes who recruit from an already-established population of space vikings. Moreover, their Apothecarion never removed the Canis, but rather worked around it, which is why you get the "Wulfen", who are Space Wolves who have semi-devolved as part of their augmentation. Even worse, Thunderwolves are implied to be Wulfen who went all the way feral.

As for the larger implications, it casts the Space Wolves in a bad light, basically making them out to be hypocrites; they punish other forces for deviating from the Imperial Creed, while they themselves are highly deviant. But, this is a trait already present in the Wolves, just look at their unbending hatred of psykers while at the same time making great use of Rune Priests, who are okay because they draw upon the "Wyrd of Fenris", which if that isn't the Warp, then it implies something even worse, that the very rock of Fenris is tainted by Chaos, the same way Caliban was.

On a related note, I wonder if the GW design team will read their own notes, with the new Helfrost stuff; if Rune Priests really do draw on some power innate to their homeworld, then it would make much more sense for Helfrost guns to be basically Psycannons charged with a very specific type of energy, but they'll probably end up being lasers fired through magic ice crystals or similar shenanigans.

Why do I get the feeling you'd seen something from WD when you say that? It's too accurate; so either you got a sneaky look or..... Wiiiiitch.... Burn the heretic.... !!!

[DWest]

Well, stand up the stake, I suppose; I haven't seen the WD yet, it was just a guesstimate based on "this would fit with already-established constructs in the world, and be cool (no pun intended)".

[Dlatrex]

This is just a personal theory so do with it what you will. When the Chaos Gods stole the Primarchs they were still in their gestation tubes and weren't fully "cooked" yet. So when these tubes landed on the various planets they finished infusing the Primarchs with the local DNA. This is why all of them seem to be precisely suited to the planet they landed on. Russ is wolf-like, Magnus became a powerful Psyker, Guilliman became a space Roman, Cruze became Batman, etc.

If this is indeed the case it makes total sense why the Chaos Gods wanted them away from the Emperor. Can you imagine if all 20 of them took on His aspects?

While a nice theory, that would seem to explain the result, I think at least within the HH novels there is enough evidence to contradict this etiology for the idiosyncrasies of each of the Primarchs. A good example would be the discussion of the Primarch Project in deliverance lost, which talks about how the source that the Emperor uses selectively turns on and off expressions from the Ur genetic sample, when it is distilled down to an individual Primarch. I believe they even use Russ's DNA as an example. =)

[Tyrsday]

In the Unremembered Empire, Guilliman muses on the fact that both the coincidences of the various Primarchs home worlds and how they suited that Primarch so well and The Emperor himself are too perfect to have been coincidences and The Emperor being the perfect being that he is would have had the foresight to want battle tested and forged generals rather than cookie cutter officers, but I have my own separate theory about Guilliman having Aspergers so take that with a grain of salt.

As far as the Terran marines being concerned, the rune priest, "Longfang," was a Terran, one of the last and one of the oldest, in Prospero Burns and he was subject to the effects of the Canis Helix, being long in the fang and the yellowing of the eyes and hardening of the skin. The Horus Heresy Book 3: Extermination also mentions that, along with the Salamanders and Alpha Legion, the Space Wolves were part of a secret project called the Trefoil that further differentiated them from the other legions. Also, somewhere someone responded to "There are no wolves on Fenris," with "Because they're all in space," but I can't recall who.

[Chris22]

As I understand it, Magnus had traveled back in time through the warp and had seen Fenris when it had first been colonized. To survive the harsh conditions, some of the early human colonists voluntarily or involuntarily evolved into wolves. Thus all the "wolves" on Fenris are actually descendants of humans and are not true wolves.

Furthermore, many of the Space Wolf Aspirants can't handle the effect of the gene seed and the Canis Helix and mutate into full blown wolves as well.

So all the "wolves" are former humans or failed Aspirants. It may also mean that the still human population of Fenris has also evolved slightly and they may all possess canine DNA. Thus, the entire population of Fenris and the Battle Brothers of the the Space Wolves may all be mutants.

[JimmyWolf]

Personally, and I say personally with as much emphasis as I can because I've seen this become a surprisingly touchy subject in the past, Magnus is just being either pedantic or demeaning.

If they really are mutated humans that are now wolves his point is one designed to inflame feelings of hatred against the Space Wolves in his own Legion, not a statement of fact. He is trying to childishly score points by facetiously attacking at least 10,000 years of poor choices. I'm sure the Space Wolves could easily respond "Well there aren't any humans in the Thousands Suns" since most are now ash. But thats all it would be, a childish insult, not meant to be taken as a statement that has gained the level of interest it has.

Think about it, if we take it literally by Magnus' logic, there are no humans on Earth. Why? Because our DNA mutated from apes at some point in the unknown past. Acceleration of that process through manipulation does not make the result any less valid. So there are Wolves on Fenris now, whether or not there were ever supposed to be.

The second point is one of being deliberately demeaning. It's important to note context, Magnus' legion has been hounded by the Wolves since before the Heresy, and while I'm not entirely sure which book this appears in I'm pretty sure it's after the events of Prospero. He has, on a number of occasions, referred to them as "dogs", "lapdogs of the Emperor", "damned Wolves" etc and while this statement is not one he has repeated in the same way, it can easily be interpreted as just another insult. They aren't Wolves, they're dogs, cowards and suck-ups to the failures of the Emperor, never questioning orders or thinking about anything other than fighting, ale or heritage. He may even have been referring to someone questioning him on dealing with "the Wolves" when they're clearly talking about the Chapter, not the animal, making this point more likely. More of the quote would be helpful here.

Again, personally, even as a Space Wolves player and Thousands Sons sympathiser (if I played CSM I would play TS) I've always found it weird that people take this as though it's some sort of amazing mystery that demands hours of discussion. I've always interpreted it as another insult and nothing more.

[Charon]

There is a third point and I think this is the point Magnus is refering too. The warp. There are no wolves to him as they wolves do not have wolf souls but human souls. Sure it is meant as an insult too (as the space puppies do know that the people of their homeworld and their own geneseed is capable of degenerating them into wolflike beasts) but I almost sure he meant the spirit/souls. Iirc he also told Ahriman to "look at them".

[Meph]

Interesting viewpoints all. What I picked up 'from the 'There are no wolves on Fenris' statement was that it's about perception, and how things seem to be. The Fenrisian wolves aren't 'true' wolves (i.e. Canis Canis) from Terra because they were genetically modified long ago in Fenris' past, they're different animals. Just as the Space Wolves seem to be brainless barbarians held on a leash and blindly obedient when unleashed. While the Vylka Fenryka are cunning, capable warriors, using their barbaric image as a tactical tool, but also capable of patient and controlled actions.
In short, never judge a book by it's cover.


And my perspective on the Canis Helix is that it comes from Leman Russ, and not from the Fenrisian humans, as it's generally implied in the lore that the Astartes inherit most their genetic traits from the geneseed, and most of their character from their homeworld. It's also hinted at that the powers of Chaos may have tampered with the Primarchs' genes during their theft and dispersion from Terra. Sanguinius being the most obvious example by his wings. Magnus probably lost his eye and got his powers tweaked, Corax & Vulcan got their pigment mutation, Russ got his beast-gene, etc... While the Emperor envisioned a different role for each of the Primarch, I doubt that entailed such severe physical mutations as his vision entails a 'perfect' humainity.

Anyway, that's my mumbling-over-a-pint-rave. :)

[Just_Me]

The second point is one of being deliberately demeaning. It's important to note context, Magnus' legion has been hounded by the Wolves since before the Heresy, and while I'm not entirely sure which book this appears in I'm pretty sure it's after the events of Prospero.

The most notable exchange where this phrase was used actually took place during a (relatively) friendly pseudo-philosophical discussion involving Magnus, Ahriman and representatives of the Space Wolves (or to give them their own name, Vlka Fenryka). The conversation is recounted in "A Thousand Sons" and predated the burning of Prospero by an undetermined number of years, and in fact even predated Nikea. It should also be noted that at the time there WAS friction between the two Legions but Magnus personally viewed the Wolves as being kindred spirits in some way, what with their prolific use of Rune Priest psykers and shamanistic techniques of using/warding Warp energies. In fact, if I recall correctly he repeatedly counseled his sons throughout that book not to underestimate the Wolves and not to be taken in by what he regarded as a facade of savage primitivism, and it seems that he regarded them as having a very deep but unscientific understanding of the Warp. Taken in this light his statement might more appropriately be read as a). a typical example of Magnus just bursting to let everyone know that he knows things, and b). a veiled effort to reach out to the Wolves and establish common ground (given his own Legion's struggles with genetic stability).

As for the curious coincidence of the various Primarch suitability to their worlds we will probably never have a clear answer, but we do have several facts to build upon. As per "Deliverance Lost" we know that the unique genetic manipulations of each Primarch (including the splicing of non-human DNA elements) was present from inception at the hand of the Emperor. In addition, in the same novel we see that the Emperor had at some time constructed "Primarch scaled" living quarters for all 20 of his sons in the Imperial Palace but that they had gone unused and unknown (Corax speculates that they were where he and his brothers were supposed to be raised). As per the aforementioned "A Thousand Sons" we know that the Canis Helix is NOT something unique to the Wolves Geneseed, but rather present in the populace of Fenris as a result of ancient genetic manipulation by human settlers during the Dark Age of Technology (not at all surprising as it seems like this sort of thing was relatively commonplace at the time, leading to the various abhumans and the Navigators among others). The similar lupine characteristics of Terran Space Wolves could be explained by the action of the Omophagea implant which allows an Astartes to integrate basic knowledge/information by eating the flesh of an organism and absorbing and interpreting genetic material (scientifically this is WAY out there in fringe biology but there have been some recent findings which weirdly imply it might not be complete bull****). If Terran-born Astartes consumed the flesh of some of manipulated organisms in ecosystem of Frenris it MIGHT have had the effect of "grafting" the Canis Helix into their genetic makeup, particularly if they ate the flesh of Fenrisian "wolves."

Those are facts, now we get into speculation. In the dream/vision experienced by Horus in the Davinite Lodge after his injury in "False Gods" he is shown the actual events of the abduction and scattering of the Primarchs, during which the Emperor attempts to intervene then think better of it and allows matters to take their course. The actual literal truth of these events is suspect as the Dark Gods were using this experience to manipulate Horus, however none of the other visions he was shown (e.g. a view of the Imperium of 41st Millennium) were discernibly untrue, just provided out of context. The whole thing is rather like the self-fulfilling prophesy in Macbeth which causes Macbeth to take actions which bring it about, actions he almost certainly would NOT have taken if he had never heard the prophesy; Horus is shown one possible vision of the repercussions of his rebellion out of context which prompts him to act and actually bring that eventuality about (ironically, if the Ruinous Powers sought outright victory in the Heresy they might have actually been somehow taken in by their own ploy and prompted a 10,000 year stalemate). Next, Guilliman's aforementioned musings (Either in "Know no Fear" or "Unremembered Empire") that the Primarchs collective suitability to the worlds where they arrived was too coincidentally perfect to be anything but contrived and his speculation that it was the Emperor who was responsible. Finally, in "Scars" Magnus' shade alludes to the fact that there was some element of control/manipulation in where the Primarchs ended up, to the point that certain of them were "meant" to go to different places but that undefined "entities" intervened and altered some of their arrivals.

This suggests to me at least one of three things; the Emperor always intended to scatter them but the Chaos Powers preempted him, the Chaos Powers intended to scatter them to confound the Emperor but he intervened enough to manipulate where they ended up to suit his plans/their natures, or that the Chaos Powers intended to scatter them but fell to infighting about where to send them and certain among them changed the intended plan to suit their own goals. Personally I think the weight of evidence seems to come down on the second scenario; that the Ruinous Powers scattered them to screw up the Emperor's plans but that he didn't let them have all their own way. There is also another possibility that has long occurred to me, based on the fact that the Warp and Realspace seem to resonate with each other with like calling to like in symbolic/metaphysical ways. This has the effect of placing odd and idiosyncratic limits and boundaries their interactions. For instance the Powers of the Warp can't just punch holes into Realspace wherever and whenever they want, certain conditions have to be met first, Khorne can initiate incursions at points where violence is rampant (more specifically violence for its own sake rather than to achieve a goal), Slaanesh where acts of wanton debauchery have taken place, etc. Certain regions/places seem to be more vulnerable than others simply because the boundaries between dimensions are naturally thin there. All of this speculation is a long way of explaining my personal thought that maybe the Ruinous Powers could ONLY send the Primarchs to worlds which specifically resonated with their nature/attributes/potential.

So the short version is; there are no wolves on Fenris because the "wolves" are humans/astartes succumbed to atavistic genetic expression of their own manipulated DNA, Magnus is a know-it-all who likes to show off from time to time, and the Primarchs didn't end up where they did by accident.