Lictor Deployment

[Essayons]

Hello all. This is my first post on BOLS and I'm hoping you can provide me some guidance on the new Tyranid Codex.

It seems that the Lictor has lost its ability to deploy individually. The entry says that a Lictor brood is 1-3 models (nothing new here), but I can't find a rule that allows them to deploy separately. Am I missing something? Without a stated rule, your three Lictors would be deployed as a unit, and this seems to run counter to the "lone hunter/stalker" role that a Lictor is intended to fill.

Any input?

Thanks,
Essayons.

[Ferro]

They changed that 'loner' thing. They deploy and act as a unit. At least you can take nine of them now, if you're insane.

[Fizyx]

They changed that 'loner' thing. They deploy and act as a unit. At least you can take nine of them now, if you're frieking awesome.

Fixed that for you :D

[Essayons]

Frankly that sucks. I would like to use more than one Lictor, but don't relish the idea of burning a FOC slot to do so. It seems, however, that this is the only way to make it happen. A grouping of Lictors (a flock?) just doesn't feel right from a background perspective though.

E.

[AbusePuppy]

Frankly that sucks. I would like to use more than one Lictor, but don't relish the idea of burning a FOC slot to do so. It seems, however, that this is the only way to make it happen. A grouping of Lictors (a flock?) just doesn't feel right from a background perspective though.

E.

I think a bigger problem would be that they have to stand there for a turn gawking in surprise that they burst out from the bushes and scared themselves.

I'm just gonna use Lictor models to represent my Ymgarl Genestealers. At least they aren't totally worthless.

[pgarfunkle]

A brood of Lictors doesn't seem too contradictory to the fluff, when you think about solitary Lictors they tend to operate behind enemy lines and without support. On the battlefield they operate as a team in the same way as a unit of special forces would. I seem to remember in the months running up to the codex release people complaining about how a Lictor all by itself in the battlefield doesn't make any sense, well now we've got groups of them lol.

As for not being able to assault on the turn they arrive it's the same problem that Guardsman Marbo among others, and deep strikers really, have to deal with. Just jump them out in cover and assault next turn, they benefit from stealth and if somebody does assault at least they can hit and run. Its what I'll be doing (once I've found my nids in the mess that is the attic lol).

[Ghoulio]

Another really awesome thing about lictors is that you can't use any of their abilities until they have been on the board for a full turn. So, if you have Hive Commander on your Hive Tyrant a Lictor is 100% totally useless since even if he comes out on turn 2, his bonus doesnt go into effect until turn 3 and at that point it is totally redundant since you are already rolling on a 2+ anyways. Same goes for deepstriking beacons since they have to be on the board for a full turn to use it...sigh. Some of the worst thought out rules in the codex (this and the tunnel). I wish Lictors could just freaking infiltrate and have night fight rules when shooting at them. THEN they would be awesome (or at least usable). I keep reading how they made lictors better, but I just dont see it. The only thing that is good is the fact that they have fleet now...thats it.

[HsojVvad]

I don't understand this thing that people keep complaining about. Some people say he can't do anything when he comes on the board. Yes it sucks that he can't do CC any more but he still gets 2 shots to shoot at a target still.

That is just like the last version of him having only 2 CC attacks in last edtion. I guess it can't Rend anymore, but with so many people saying how rending got nerfed, is this such a big deal now?

For the people who say he can't do anything, that is just a lie, and it makes your point moot since you are not giving out all the facts.

Now really give out all the facts. What is so bad about the Lictor now? All I see, is he lost 1 Attack when he DS in, the pheromone is worse, his cover save is worse now, but he is cheaper now, and you can take more than one without taking up more elite slots. Is he as good as before? I am not shure since I havn't played last edtion. But reading this the 4th and 5th edtion lictors side by side they seem the same.

When he DS in 4th he would get shot to pieces, but has a hard chance to DS in. In 5th edtion, he has an easier chance to DS in and still would get shot to pieces. So exactly what is your problem with the 5th edtion Lictors?

As for fluff of them being loners, well they didn't like being shot up all the time in 4th edtion, so they decided to band together so now they get shot up together instead of alone.

I am still learning the rules, so please explain nicely why they are so bad compared to to the last edtion, I still see them the same as they were last edtion. If they sucked now, they must have sucked in 4th edtion as well.

[sebi81]

as long as he could attack when deepstriking and didn´t kill the entire squad he attacked, he wasn´t shot. for example he could attack a devastor squad, so the devastors couldn´t shoot an perhaps even get eaten a round later.
now he can easily appear next to the devastor squad and shoot at them killing one or even two if he´s very lucky and gets shot after that...

[AbusePuppy]

Now really give out all the facts. What is so bad about the Lictor now? All I see, is he lost 1 Attack when he DS in, the pheromone is worse, his cover save is worse now, but he is cheaper now, and you can take more than one without taking up more elite slots. Is he as good as before? I am not shure since I havn't played last edtion. But reading this the 4th and 5th edtion lictors side by side they seem the same.

1. His pheremone trail only works once he is on the board. It provides a +1 per brood, rather than a reroll for each Lictor you took. This is bad because not only will it not come up until too late, but you also can't use it to try and hold off reserves that you don't want to arrive yet. Did you want those Warriors to pop out of a Trygon hole? Oops, sorry, they arrive the same turn and so you can't so it. Enjoy walking across the battlefield.

2. His cover save went from (generally) 2+ to 3+. Ask Terminators and Space Marines how big of a difference that is. (Protip: that +1 bonus doubles your survivability, all the more so because it ignores AP.)

3. He can't assault the turn he arrives. This is critical. he can't hide in combat anymore (not that he could before, either, with a 5+ save) and he's easier to kill with shooting because of #2, above. The extra wound is nice, but not sufficient. This also means that he is never a "surprise!" unit like he could be in the last codex- as bad as he might have been, he at least had the potential to show up and ruin a tank with S6 rending hits.

4. He doesn't have a free reroll to hit anymore (feeder tendrils), nor does he grant it to others nearby. Rerolling 1s with ST doesn't count, it's not even a fraction as good.

5. He needs to make Instinctive Behaviour tests now and isn't Fearless. (Before, Fearless meant that you could auto-pass IB tests.) Moreover, his IB response is lurk. This means that the Lictor, a dedicated close-combat specialist unit, sits around on its @$$ hoping no one notices it. Is this fluffy? Sure. Is it stupid when it happens? Extremely.

6. The Elites slot is the happenin' place for cool kids to hang out. Lictors are that dorky four-eyes that gets duped into buying beer and then kicked the hell out of the party. Before, he had to fight with Tyranid Warriors (meh) and budget Carnifexes (good, but you didn't always want three of them.) Now? Aside from virtually all our AT firepower (Hive Guard, Zoanthropes)- each of which are fantastic units, I might add- there's Venomthropes, Ymgarl Genestealers, the Doom of Malan'tai, and their older, cooler cousin Deathleaper. Do you think the nerdy kid is going to get any hot makeouts with competition like that? Hell no he won't. He's gonna go home and cry about it to his collection of X-Men comics. I speak from personal experience here.

In short, Lictors have tons of strikes against them and very little for them. What do they do that other units don't do better? Ymgarl Stealers are a better surprise assault unit, and more flexible to boot. Pretty much the entire Elites section is better at hunting tanks. Venomthropes are better utility. Heck, freaking Pyrovores are better at dealing with units in cover. (Lictors are the one of three guys in the codex with frag grenades, you remember.) There is nothing they do that another unit doesn't do better, except look cool.

Oh man, and they do look cool and have awesome fluff! But they're terrible units and there is no reason to buy them. GW did, admittedly, make them better in many ways. And worse in others. Overall, it was really a wash, and for a unit that was uniquely terrible (in a codex with many terrible units, I might add) that just doesn't cut the mustard.

[Ghoulio]

You know...i find it funny. People keep saying that Lictors are better then they were, but i seriously beg to differ.

- For starters as people have mentioned you could assault the turn you came in which is way better then his stupid flesh hook attack. I mean, its Assault 2 and he is BS 3. So each one gets ONE str 6 shot that can only glance the turn they come in, that is terrible. The old lictor could assault vehicles and get 4 str 6 shots that typically auto hit and could pen (this is just from personal experience)

- The other big thing he was used for other then killing stray basilisks was giving any unit near him preferred enemy. This has come in handy so many times for me.

- As mentioned before a better cover save (basically 2+ always) which is huge.

- Could be seen as a benefit or a boon is the ability to be field individually.

For me the only two things that have improved are

- 1 more wound (otherwise stats are the EXACT SAME)
- Fleet

Thats it. Everything (in my opinion) was better previous edition and I would happily pay a mesely 15pts to get him back.

[HsojVvad]

You know...i find it funny. People keep saying that Lictors are better then they were, but i seriously beg to differ.

- For starters as people have mentioned you could assault the turn you came in which is way better then his stupid flesh hook attack. I mean, its Assault 2 and he is BS 3. So each one gets ONE str 6 shot that can only glance the turn they come in, that is terrible. The old lictor could assault vehicles and get 4 str 6 shots that typically auto hit and could pen (this is just from personal experience)

- The other big thing he was used for other then killing stray basilisks was giving any unit near him preferred enemy. This has come in handy so many times for me.

- As mentioned before a better cover save (basically 2+ always) which is huge.

- Could be seen as a benefit or a boon is the ability to be field individually.

For me the only two things that have improved are

- 1 more wound (otherwise stats are the EXACT SAME)
- Fleet

Thats it. Everything (in my opinion) was better previous edition and I would happily pay a mesely 15pts to get him back.

Ok, now I believe the 5th Lictors suck now, or at least are worse off. As I said, I didn't see anyone explain themselves, and you have done exactly that. Now I can see why Lictors are worse off now than before. I totally forgot about the preferred enemy. Thanks for clearing it up.

[whitestar333]

I think we're spoiled by how the 5th edition codex made our army ridiculously awesome. Does no one remember the days of 4th edition anymore? Tyranids got way better in 5th edition, with almost no downsides, unlike some other armies. Sure, venom cannons weren't as reliable at tank killing, but the prevalence of cover saves (at a 4+, mind you) was unprecedented and that made lictors even more survivable than before.

If anything, the new codex just realigns us with where our army is supposed to be on power level. That includes everything from venom cannons to mind lance to our lictors. Back then, our lictors got a 3+ cover save and, although they sucked, they had to strike the vehicle armor they were facing. Being able to strike rear armor now is a gift in 5th edition, and again, I think we were spoiled by the switch over to 5th, and our codex needed to be re-aligned with proper points values (feeder tendril genestealers anyone?).

That said, I think lictors are still really effective and much more useful in a variety of situations. You all seem to claim that lictors were great at busting tanks, but how many people ACTUALLY took them? Come on, you know as well as I do that you'd never take one because you'd have to deep strike into terrain. There might be no tanks anywhere near that terrain, or you might scatter away. And you never assaulted devastators either, because you might mishap on top of them. Let's be real here, the lictor has changed to the point where it's feasible to actually take them for their points cost. Besides, you can actually more reliably deal with vehicles because you can place the lictor pretty much anywhere you want! You want to take care of that basilisk? You have a better chance of doing it now with flesh hooks because you can place yourself exactly where you need to be. You can hit side/rear armor with ease with S6 RENDING attacks! So what if it's AP -? You can keep that sucker from shooting or even blow off it's weapon. If they shoot your lictors, that's less shooting at the rest of your griblies. If they don't shoot your lictors, they'll feel your wrath.

Oh and by the way, re-rolling 1s for scything talons is exactly half as good as preferred enemy because you hit pretty much everything on a 3+ anyway, so you re-roll 1s instead of 1s and 2s. Trust me, it's still really awesome.
Plus, they're Ld10, so IB will likely never matter. Sure, it will happen, but less often than marines fail a morale/pinning check.

I believe that lictors, although not a super powerful unit, have a much better place in this new codex, and are now balanced to the point where they're worth taking. The trick is finding the appropriate usage beyond the "I'm going to beat/shoot the piss out of you" style of armies that everyone is so fond of.

[DarkLink]

I think we're spoiled by how the 5th edition codex made our army ridiculously awesome. Does no one remember the days of 4th edition anymore? Tyranids got way better in 5th edition, with almost no downsides, unlike some other armies. Sure, venom cannons weren't as reliable at tank killing, but the prevalence of cover saves (at a 4+, mind you) was unprecedented and that made lictors even more survivable than before.


Well, 5th ed did end the reign of Nidzilla as the most powerful army in the game (next to the Eldar flying circus). Other than that, yeah.

[Caldera02]

Only thing that has bothered me about the new lictors is that everything they do, marbo does better.

I love my lictors and wanted so badly to play with them in the last codex but they sucked. I hoped that would get better. They did overall but as has been said already, there are better elites now. Now Deathleaper on the other hand, is freaking awesome :P

[AbusePuppy]

*deletia*

Alright, so let me pose this question to you: what is it that Lictors are good at? Keep in mind the other units in the Elites slot when you say this.

It isn't tank-killing. Zoanthropes in a Mycetic Spore are better at this by a long shot. Lictors are marginally better at stunning/shaking AV10 (due to two shots and no psychic test), but Zoanthopes are more survivable (3++), have better range (18" is way more useful than 6") and can actually kill vehicles.

It isn't anti-infantry. Ymgarl Stealers get something like twice to three times as many attacks for the points and can assault the turn they enter play. Oh, and they can perform reasonable anti-tank as well (S5 rending) and have comparable toughness (three T4/4+ wounds vs. three T4/3+ wounds, given roughly equal points).

It isn't cover-busting. Pyrovores in a Mycetic Spore inflict far more casualties (130 pts = two heavy flamers and six S6 shots OR four S6 rending shots). Even assuming the Lictors live to get the charge in, they are going to take several turns to make up the difference, and those are turns you're getting shot during.

It isn't utility. Deathleaper does everything a Lictor brood does and then some for roughly the cost of two Lictors. More importantly, he's extremely difficult to shoot (average spotting distance 10") and can teleport to wherever you need his beacon to be next turn or to contest.

So what is it Lictors do? I will admit that they are better than they were last codex, if not by much. But what do they do? Every other unit in the codex (bar Carnifex and Broodlord) got massively improved. Lictors were left in the cold. It's utterly bizarre.

[HsojVvad]

It looks to me like the Individual characters are really the way their counterparts are suppose to be. From reading the rules, I was thinking that the Death Leaper is suppose to be the way the Lictor should be.

Maybe just use the Death Leaper and say it's the Lictor. Then if you don't like the Death Leaper I guess just dn't bother with it then. I don't think there should be more than one Lictor anyway, not 3 of them in a brood so just having the Death Leaper would be good and fluffy if you like the rules for the DL.

[whitestar333]

First of all, I must say that although mycetic spores are great, they are not flawless deep strikers. They are monstrous creatures, and you must disembark within 2", leaving you with some flexibility, but they are a big footprint and they can still scatter off the board and mishap. Similarly the ymgarl genestealers can potentially suffer casualties if your opponent moves into the cover you choose. Maybe those genestealers will come in too soon or too late, and then you just lost a ton of points.
I think that lictors are better at taking care of small, isolated units (just as their fluff portrays). I see lictors as a utility unit - capable of doing many different things you ask it to do. Sure, there are units that do certain parts better, but a lictor does all of those things, and fills several niches, depending on what you're lacking in at the time. Try to consider all of the things the lictor has available to it, and see the big utilitarian picture. I'm not gonna try to get you to stop using zoanthropes, but why not use zoanthropes, pyrovores, AND lictors? Maybe those lictors will come out first, go to ground (2+ cover), and then allow your zoanthropes/pyrovores/whatever to show up exactly where you need them? Maybe your lictor can harrass a small squad and then hit and run away only to catch another squad halfway across the board (3d6" at end of turn + 6" move + d6" fleet + 6" assault = "average" of 26"). Let's also not forget that lictors are one of the few units in our codex who can strike at initiative when assaulting through cover.

Just give the poor guy a shot!

[BuFFo]

Lictors got worse in the new codex.

I didn't think it could be possible lol. :p

They deploy as a unit and stay together like any other unit in the game now. Fun times. Not really.

[AbusePuppy]

First of all, I must say that although mycetic spores are great, they are not flawless deep strikers. They are monstrous creatures, and you must disembark within 2", leaving you with some flexibility, but they are a big footprint and they can still scatter off the board and mishap.

Really, how often do you see Drop Pods mishap? I think I can count the number of times I've seen it on one hand. And while they are less accurate than the Lictor's ability, to be sure, the 18" range of the Zoanthropes' gun and 12+d6" assault radius of Ymgarl Stealers more than makes up for any imprecision.



Similarly the ymgarl genestealers can potentially suffer casualties if your opponent moves into the cover you choose. Maybe those genestealers will come in too soon or too late, and then you just lost a ton of points.

Lictors are just as vulnerable to coming in too late/early as other units (although their superior placement gives them something of an edge there). Unless the cover you select is unusually small, it's not hard to squeeze a small squad (6-7 members) into one edge of the terrain if they try to block you off of it. Your opponent needs to stuff a unit with an unusually large footprint into most terrain to block it off enough to stop you from deploying in it.


I think that lictors are better at taking care of small, isolated units (just as their fluff portrays). I see lictors as a utility unit - capable of doing many different things you ask it to do. Sure, there are units that do certain parts better, but a lictor does all of those things, and fills several niches, depending on what you're lacking in at the time. Try to consider all of the things the lictor has available to it, and see the big utilitarian picture. I'm not gonna try to get you to stop using zoanthropes, but why not use zoanthropes, pyrovores, AND lictors? Maybe those lictors will come out first, go to ground (2+ cover), and then allow your zoanthropes/pyrovores/whatever to show up exactly where you need them? Maybe your lictor can harrass a small squad and then hit and run away only to catch another squad halfway across the board (3d6" at end of turn + 6" move + d6" fleet + 6" assault = "average" of 26"). Let's also not forget that lictors are one of the few units in our codex who can strike at initiative when assaulting through cover.

As I said, Deathleaper does the utility job better (he gets nearly as many attacks, makes up for it on rends and is much harder to kill.) Furthermore, Ymgarl Stealers are generally superior anti-tank (since the opponent can't just drive 12" away and laugh at them quite so easily) and blatantly better anti-infantry. Zoanthropes also have their "secondary" power, the AP3 blast- which does a rather handy job of killing the most common variety of infantry.

The problem with the "I'm gonna run around and harass small squads!" plan is that even "small" squads are a reasonable threat to them. They can't effectively hide in CC because T4 and a 5+ means they will usually get torn up pretty badly from just a round or two of combat (even a four-man Devastator squad averages a wound a turn on a Lictor). What do you do if your opponent isn't stupid enough to leave squads isolated from each other? Combined fire is an important part of most any kind of shooting army (and an assault army will tear a Lictor to pieces), so expecting your opponents to have two- and three-man shooty squads scattered around the board, isolated from the rest of his forces, seems like a pretty bad plan.

Flesh Hooks are nice for striking at initiative. It's rather annoying that they decided that no other unit in the codex would be allowed to take them, however. And the fact that Carnifexes, of all things, get the only other grenades.... I NEED TO STRIKE AT MY I1, I CANNOT AFFORD TO HAVE IT BE REDUCED!

[BuFFo]

Carnifexes can have up to Initiative 4 I believe, on the charge.

Which is pretty nice.

[Caldera02]

Yes standing still they are I 1, but on the charge they can be I4 with furious charge. So frag grenades becomes important. I do miss giving my other units frag grenades though. That alone is probably my biggest growing pain with my new nids. That's all it is though, I am learning to deal with it.