If X = Y, then 40K?

[YorkNecromancer]

So 'Guardians of the Galaxy' is coming out. The film is based on a comic created by Dan Abnett.

Does that mean we can therefore call GotG a 40K movie? :D

[Wolfshade]

No.

[Mr Mystery]

He didn't create it. He reinvented old characters.

Plus, I get to see it on Wednesday, before you guys.

Nyeah nyeah nyeah nyeah nyeah!

[Wolfshade]

"Before you guys" assumes that I am going to see it at all...

[Mr Mystery]

Ah you've ruined it now. Bumhat.

[Wolfshade]

#winning

[YorkNecromancer]

Hey, don't feel bad. I'm still jealous.

This is the only Marvel film I've been excited to see other than 'Winter Soldier' (Iron Man films are okay, but I don't really like Tony Stark, and the Thor films are just dull apart from Loki).

Plus Rocket Raccoon is a boss in MvC3. Oh what's that Ryu? Your super combo is a giant dragon punch? Mine is A G******NED AIRSTRIKE!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ay1YAgp68qQ&feature=player_detailpage

[Wolfshade]

Of course we could already do such things.

James Swallow (BA:Omnibus, Nemesis, Flight of the Einstein, etc.) also wrote teh original concepts for a couple of Voyager episodes (One #193, Memorial #236) but we wouldn't mention anything with Neelix in it as a 40k series ;)

[YorkNecromancer]

You say that, but I've always worked under the assumption that Star Trek is part of 40k's continuity - it's the much-feared Dark Age of Technology, predating the coming of the Emperor by some 25,000 years.

What happened to all those Star Trek species like Neelix?

The Great Crusade.

Oh hi Klingons. What's that you say? A Bat'leth? Sorry, I couldn't hear you over the sound of your body exploding from bolter shells. Yeah, that sharp blade is totally deadly against this fully enclosed power armour.

Oh hi Borg. What's that you say? Power fields that modulate to resist phaser fire but that are completely vulnerable to kinetic weapons? Sorry, I couldn't hear you over the sound of this hyper-velocity Autocannon. The one that's just turned your buddies into chum. Oh what's that? You can fight at total efficiency with 98% damage? Cool story, bro. And one the War Hounds and their Primarch Angron would just love to put to the test. He's just invented this thing called a 'Chainaxe' and he's been itching to test it on something squishy that screams.

You know I'm right. :D

[Wildeybeast]

A Klingon could take a space marine. Discuss.

[Mr Mystery]

One of my fave things about 40k that.

Set so far in the future, it doesn't invalidate other Sci Fi.

Like Firefly :)

[Wolfshade]

A Klingon could take a space marine. Discuss.

from behind.....fnar!

[bfmusashi]

Since the established power curve is klingon<augmented human<vulcan I think there's a fair bit of evidence that klingons die pretty fast in a 40k setting. Their most shameful moments involve losing the sword of Kahless to space bugs and an entire war to small furry balls that are born pregnant. Of course, space marines insist on getting really close to dangerous things so they can use their chainsaw swords, so klingons clearly have the tactical advantage.

And with that I officially don my nerd hat, the hat in which I nerd. 10092

[Psychosplodge]

A Klingon could take a space marine. Discuss.

Wildey used live hand grenade...

No, except in the fevered imagination of people inhabiting startrek forums.

[DWest]

I would expect a single Klingon could take a single Space Marine in close combat, but he'd be shuffling off to the afterlife shortly afterward. If there was any sort of range involved though, where the Marine could get his bolter into play, then our Klingon would quickly be taking up a new career in interior decorating.

[Charon]

Even in Star Trek Klingons can get beat up by normal humans. The only way for a Klingon to take on a Space Marine is when he sleeps, without armor and the Klingon aims with a Disruptor from 100 ft away.

[Psychosplodge]

Really?
How many times have we seen unaugmented humans give a klingon a kicking?
A fluff space marine (as they only have fluff klingons) would redecorate with the klingon at either range...

[Wolfshade]

No marines are taller bigger and stronger than Klingons and as has been demonstrated before genetic modified super solider (Khan) can kill Klingons quite readily in CC.

What we need to consider is the power of the disrupters, since they can vapourise people they must be far more powerful than Imperial weaponry such as the lasgun, even hotshots just leave a sticking great hole rather than vapourising the target, so in that respect the disrupter must be more akin to a lascannon (though strangely they seem to just scortch scenery....) so if they are shooting they might have a chance.

[Wildeybeast]

Are we talking about original series Klingons or TNG ones?

[Psychosplodge]

But as you say they just scorch scenery so I'd imagine they'd do little against power armour.

[eldargal]

They punch through body armour or vaporise people though so it's hard to say.

[Mr Mystery]

No marines are taller bigger and stronger than Klingons and as has been demonstrated before genetic modified super solider (Khan) can kill Klingons quite readily in CC.

What we need to consider is the power of the disrupters, since they can vapourise people they must be far more powerful than Imperial weaponry such as the lasgun, even hotshots just leave a sticking great hole rather than vapourising the target, so in that respect the disrupter must be more akin to a lascannon (though strangely they seem to just scortch scenery....) so if they are shooting they might have a chance.

Have you seen the scale issue between the ships? Nothing in Star Trek, barring perhaps a Borg Cube, could really do damage to even a lowly Cobra Destroyer!

[Psychosplodge]

They certainly don't design their ships for ramming.

[Wolfshade]

Size isn't everything, it's all about technology hence David beat Goliath. So while the 40k ships are much larger their weaponry is less potent. As the disruptors on Klingon vessels are upscaled versions of the tiny hand held ones. And if they small couple of gram pistol type weapon can destroy buildings then scaled up they must be devastating. Indeed we see the laser weaponry drilling to the cores of planets, something which doesn't really happen even with fleets lance batteries in 40k. So while theya re much bigger, they would still fall to the fire power and would be totally out maneourved. The only hope would be that the fighters make a large enough ablative sheilding.

[Psychosplodge]

IDK, the Imperial fleet deals with Eldar ships with a wall of ordnance, Cyclonic torpedoes can split planets apart. Startrek ships are woefully inadequate for planetary bombardment. The Imperium of man routinely outfits ships for it.
It could be a case of the armour is so thick to withstand the weapons.

[eldargal]

In DS9 there was that Romulan/Cardassian fleet with upgraded but not ultra-unusual vessals which pulverised a world (what they thought was the homeworld of an enemy) with 20 ships, something that would require much larger Imperium ships with specialised weaponry to do and possibly more of them too depending on the weaponry. So weaponry in Star Trek could well be much more destructive.

[Psychosplodge]

We have a published WD piece that says it takes one ship and 5 cyclonic torpedoes to render a world uninhabitable.

sorry magna melta




Rocks are NOT ‘free’, citizen.

Firstly, you must manoeuvre the Emperor’s naval vessel within the asteroid belt, almost assuredly sustaining damage to the Emperor’s ship’s paint from micrometeoroids, while expending the Emperor’s fuel.

Then the Tech Priests must inspect the rock in question to ascertain its worthiness to do the Emperor’s bidding. Should it pass muster, the Emperor’s Servitors must use the Emperor’s auto-scrapers and melta-cutters to prepare the potential ordinance for movement. Finally, the Tech Priests finished, the Emperor’s officers may begin manoeuvring the Emperor’s warship to abut the asteroid at the prepared face (expending yet more of the Emperor’s fuel), and then begin boosting the stone towards the offensive planet.

After a few days of expending a prodigious amount of the Emperor’s fuel to accelerate the asteroid into an orbit more fitting to the Emperor’s desires, the Emperor’s ship may then return to the planet via superluminous warp travel and await the arrival of the stone, still many weeks (or months) away.

After twiddling away the Emperor’s time and eating the Emperor’s food in the wasteful pursuit of making sure that the Emperor’s enemies do not launch a deflection mission, they may finally watch the ordinance impact the planet (assuming that the Emperor’s ship does not need to attempt any last-minute course correction upon the rock, using yet more of the Emperor’s fuel).


Given a typical (class Bravo-CVII) system, we have the following:

Two months, O&M, Titan class warship: 4.2 Million Imperials

Two months, rations, crew of same: 0.2 MI

Two months, Tech Priest pastor: 1.7 MI

Two months, Servitor parish: 0.3 MI

Paint, Titan class warship: 2.5 MI

Dihydrogen peroxide fuel: 0.9 MI

Total: 9.8 MI


Contrasted with the following:

5 warheads, magna-melta: 2.5 MI

One day, O&M, Titan class warship: 0.3 MI

One day, rations, crew of same: 0.0 MI

Dihydrogen peroxide fuel: 0.1 MI

Total: 2.9 MI


Given the same result with under one third of the cost, the Emperor will have saved a massive amount of His most sacred money and almost a full month of time, during which His warship may be bombarding an entirely different planet.

The Emperor, through this – His Office of Imperial Outlays – hereby orders you to attend one (1) week of therapeutic accountancy training/penance. Please report to Areicon IV, Imperial City, Administratum Building CXXI, Room 1456, where you are to sit in the BLUE chair.


For the Emperor,

Bursarius Tenathis,

Purser Level XI,

Imperial Office of Outlays.

[eldargal]

Yeah like i said it depends on teh loudout, cyclonic torpedoes aren't standard.

[Wolfshade]

It was Tal-Shiar and Obsidian Order technically....

But that is because the D'deridex-class, B-type is awesome. This is without taking into account the big birdie that the Picard clone built for Nemsis

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Also unihabitable isn't non-existant

[eldargal]

Tal Shiar are Romulan and Obsidian Order are Cardassian.:p

Yup, whereas the above mentioned fleet were doing massive damage to the crust very quickly and I think would have been down to the mantle within an hour or something. Much firepower, very destructive. wow.

[Psychosplodge]

Meh, We all know the Star wars ships would win anyway :p
But I still think the 40K ones would outdo the star trek ones.

[Wolfshade]

They are not the militaries of either planet, nor were they acting on behalf of their respective governments.

Plus the scimitar (picard's clone ship) with it's radiation weapon can strip life in seconds which is shorter than torpedos or virus bombs etc.

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Meh, We all know the Star wars ships would win anyway :p
But I still think the 40K ones would outdo the star trek ones.

I think that the star wars have the problem of the 40k they are big and not movable, so require fighter wings, but there weaponry and defensive systems aren't great

[Tyrendian]

But that is because the D'deridex-class, B-type is awesome. This is without taking into account the big birdie that the Picard clone built for Nemsis

which is still something like a tenth the size of proper Imperial battleships; same for Negh'Var and Sovereign, which are something of the staple "big ships"...
it's impossible to say who would win a space fight though, mainly because we can't really gauge how the respective shielding techs work out against the other's weapons... the larger size of 40k weapons will probably be offset somewhat by manouverability on the Trekkies' part, but weapon range is another matter - from what I remember Lances have ranges in the hundreds of thousands of kilometers, while Trekkies usually fight at single or at most double digit kilometer ranges...

[Psychosplodge]

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I think that the star wars have the problem of the 40k they are big and not movable, so require fighter wings, but there weaponry and defensive systems aren't great

I think these comparisons (http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/FiveMinutes.html) based on observations give a reasonable idea.

[daboarder]

I only see one civilisation that has survived 10,000 years of war against everything from itself to voracious aliens, re-awakened automatons, Cokneys, and Malicous Sentient Gods of raw emotion

[Psychosplodge]

That's a good point.

[Wolfshade]

which is still something like a tenth the size of proper Imperial battleships; same for Negh'Var and Sovereign, which are something of the staple "big ships"...
it's impossible to say who would win a space fight though, mainly because we can't really gauge how the respective shielding techs work out against the other's weapons... the larger size of 40k weapons will probably be offset somewhat by manouverability on the Trekkies' part, but weapon range is another matter - from what I remember Lances have ranges in the hundreds of thousands of kilometers, while Trekkies usually fight at single or at most double digit kilometer ranges...

We have already established that 40k weapons are less powerful comparing the effects of a standard issue bolter vs a standard issue phaser/disrupter. Then upscaled to affects on planets...


I think these comparisons (http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/FiveMinutes.html) based on observations give a reasonable idea.

A couple of things I wouldn't trust anyone who has such a badly formatted webpage, then goes on to make comparisons between military ships and the Enterprise which is a science vessel not a capitol warship as claimed throughout (fool). If you must compare it to a starfleet ship then you have two options really, the Defiant or Vengance (STID).

[Psychosplodge]

The page is very old.
Is the Enterprise not the flagship?

[daboarder]

That's a good point.

Thank you, I think it illustrates the point.

Remember its not just the gun, its how far you are willing to go, and the Trekkie and Wars universes don't make a regular thing of exterminatus. No one does "total war" quite like the imperium

[Wolfshade]

No.

A flagship is any ship commanded by an admiral, indeed any navy would have a number of flagships. Then you have the flagship of the fleet (which the Enterprise is akin to). Then any ship in charge of a group would be the flagship so when Defiant takes over command of the fleet it becomes that fleet's particular flagship.

In the motion pictures where Kirk is an admiral the Enterprise is a flagship

Most of the time though the Enterprise is captained by a captain, without a fleet so it is wrong to call it a flagship as it has neither a fleet to command nor an officer of flag.

It is sometimes used in the venacular to say it is the best in the fleet but that isn't an official title.

[Psychosplodge]

Right.
So they're doing it wrong.

[Wolfshade]

Essentially.

[Tyrendian]

then goes on to make comparisons between military ships and the Enterprise which is a science vessel not a capitol warship as claimed throughout (fool). If you must compare it to a starfleet ship then you have two options really, the Defiant or Vengance (STID).

maybe so, but the Galaxy and Sovereign are still some of the best the Feds actually have, and can hold their own against Negh'Var and D'Deridex, which are warships and no doubt there. So I don't really see your point... or rather. maybe it's less a matter of tech and capabilities but of approach - the Federation is (or tries to be at least) a largely peaceful organisation, which can't be said for either the Empire or the Imperium of Man...

[Wolfshade]

My point was the comparison between a dedicated troop transport from Star Wars with the Enterprise-D. It is like comparing an APC with a bus/coach and saying that the APC is superior. It is as you go on to state the approach which matters. If Starfleet are capable of build a scientific exploration vessel that can stand against ships of the line then what on earth (pun not intended) could they do if they decided to scrap the peaceful design philosphy and go for an out and out attack cruiser (the closest is the Defiant which is phenomenally powerful given its size, indeed is arguably more powerful than even the Enterprise-E)

While the Galaxy and Sovereign classes are some of the most technologically advanced ships that starfleet commands they are not warships and even if they are designed to operate in hostile times they are still design principally for science and exploration so any comparisons between Starfleet and any military organisation are misguided.

Better comparisons would be with the militaristic species like the Breen, Klingons, Cardassians and Romulans.

[Quick 40k equivalency

Klingons - Orks
Romulans - Eldar
Cardassians - Imperium of Man]

[Mr Mystery]

Us, this thread. I love it.

http://images.techhive.com/images/article/2012/05/nerd_fight_tex-100000258-larg-100000274-large.jpg

Also, Imperium has a great many extremely potent psykers. As we've seen many times, Trek has no set or standard defence procedure. Mindbum the Captain, or Security, and wipe out the command crew. Ship in deep, deep troub.

Other point on the ships? Boarding actions. Trek just doesn't have the numbers!

[Wolfshade]

You can't use psykers inside vehicles it's in the BRB - flippant response :)

But given that you couldn't use psykers in BFG one can only assume that you can't really do it in the hectic ship to ship combat.

There are psykers in Trek, though they are almost universaly "good aligned" so have non-military uses.

As for ship capturing, it is crude and inefficient. Both can teleport, certainly you wouldn't have one ship capturing one 40k ship, it would take days to try and do or would require a full planterary invasion force (indeed we see in 40k fiction the best way to board a capitol ship is to go alongside and launch across tubes) but this only really happens if the one ship already has no defences in which case it is probably best just to aim at the reactors and blow the ship up. History shows that a captured ship and its crew will sometimes revolt and take the ship back.

So yes it is impractical for ST to capture a 40k ship, or anything remotely ship of the line size. With the manouerability of the ST ships it would be difficult to capture it in 40k but far far more possible.

Indeed WW2 Britian captured just 2 ships, Germany captured 2 UK ships. It was uncommon then with the ease naval warfare. Modern ship capturing has been done by small craft with militias vs large cruisers with very few personnel.

[Mr Mystery]

It's more of a staple in 40k though, certainly more than Trek (though Trek does have attempts, but those seem more to do damage than take control).

Imagine a Dreadclaw to The Bridge of any Trek vessel. That's game over right there man, right there!

Also, see the Defiant? Probably not a great deal bigger than a 40k Bomber (BFG fighters alone were compared in size to Jumbo Jets!). And 40k bombers travel in packs.

[Wolfshade]

It would be, but trying to hit that target would be difficult especially given the limited manourvrability of the dreadclaws, perhaps the assault ram would have a better chance.

It is true that the defiant is small, 152m, compared with the thunderhawk at 26m, bomber 20m so it is a scale larger but still tiny even in the trekverse, but don't forget the defiant still can outshoot the enterprise so it's smallness is not such an issue

[Wildeybeast]

In terms of ship boarding, trek clearly has the edge. Teleportation is much more effect and reliable, allowing you to dump your away team right next to key features (bridge, warp core) and take them with surgical strikes before the ponderous space marines can respond. By contrast, the space marines are mostly limited to firing boarding torpedoes and fighting their way through, with trek ships easily being able to seal of various sections of their ships through bulkheads and internal force fields.
Furthermore, most of the naval battles would be against the imperial navy and trek teams would carve their way through the puny humans on board with ease.

On the enterprise debate, it sits some where between a ship of the line and survey vessel. The federation has purely scientific vessels and ones outfitted solely for fighting, the enterprise is designed to do both and whilst it is not often the flagship, it is virtually always their most advanced ship.

[Mr Mystery]

You joking?

The sheer scale of the important stuff on a 40k ship is frankly staggering. Plus, nobody seems to wear any armour at all, leaving them horribly vulnerable to the 'hey, what's safety?' conditions on board a 40k craft.

[Wolfshade]

I disagree in one of the HH books, a loyalist ship is being invaded and there are two teams one heads to the bridge the other to the engine room, that is all you need, from their you can seal off those areas and take out anything else. In the same way you can do that on a Trekverse ship.

Despite it being huge it is still controlled by humans.

Reading the descriptions though most naval ratings just wear uniform not armour after all they are behind their shields and hull plating to protect them.

[AirHorse]

Wouldn't Spock just go back in time and cheat anyway? :P

[bfmusashi]

Everyone from at least the 31st century onward in the Federation can muck in the timeline with near impunity. Enterprise is also where a small team of unarmed augments killed every klingon on a Bird of Prey in close combat. Which lead to the Klingon augment program, which gave us TOS Klingons.

[eldargal]

Assuming anyone considers Enterprise canon.><

[Psychosplodge]

Still better than any episode of Voyager with kes in it...

[Wolfshade]

Still better than any episode of Voyager with kes in it...

Truer words have never been spoken.

[eldargal]

Nope, even Kes episodes are superior to Enterprise. That show was an abomination.><

[Psychosplodge]

I quite like the non-timewar episodes.

[Wolfshade]

I liked the idea of enterprise, they hadn't got to the ascended morality of TOS or TNG, the prime directive was shakey and the technology wasn't there.

[Tyrendian]

the time travel thing is a very good point to consider in any potential conflict "between universes" though - Trekkies will probably get some "mysterious benefactors" to make sure they don't loose too badly :)

[eldargal]

The idea was good, the execution was terrible in the end it just amounted to 'Well **** we have none of the cool stuff and our writers aren't good enough to make what we have work so **** IT! Bring in the Romulans, Ferengi, BorG and everything oh and **** we forgot to tell the actors playing Vulcans they had no emotions but **** it just roll with it now ok?'.><

[Psychosplodge]

the time travel thing is a very good point to consider in any potential conflict "between universes" though - Trekkies will probably get some "mysterious benefactors" to make sure they don't loose too badly :)

Well if the Q interfere, the chaos gods could take offence at someone else playing with their "toys".

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The idea was good, the execution was terrible in the end it just amounted to 'Well **** we have none of the cool stuff and our writers aren't good enough to make what we have work so **** IT! Bring in the Romulans, Ferengi, BorG and everything oh and **** we forgot to tell the actors playing Vulcans they had no emotions but **** it just roll with it now ok?'.><

Well I'd assume the romulans should be there. And based on first contact I can see where the borg and the loop thing would work.
But the ferengi shouldn't be there, didn't Picard first contact them?

[eldargal]

Well they knew about the Romulans and went to war with them around the time Enterprise was set but the whole thing was wrong and they showed what Romulans looked like when the first face to face contact was in a TOS episode. But somehow they had spies running around Vulcan and **** meeting Starfleet officers and being exposed and it was just a mess. The Borg storyline at least made sense but it was a still retcon used to bring in a cool and popular (and ratings bringing) race back because they had nothing better to do. An yep Picard made first contact with the Ferengi, but they still managed to appear in Enterprise. See above re: ****ty writers needing to bring cool stuff from teh future.

[Mr Mystery]

Still better than any episode of Voyager with kes in it...

http://ts3.mm.bing.net/th?id=HN.608033349184129964&pid=1.7

[Psychosplodge]

lols

If ferengi are species 180 why are other alpha quadrant species in the thousands?

[Wolfshade]

Picard made first official contact with them but they were known of before, they are mentioned in the pilot or was it just generic merchants eitherway, they were more aggressive and less business in TNG than DS9 anyway.

As for the low number it could be a different type of numbering so 180 could be the 80th subtype of type 1.

Otherwise you end up with wormwholes/caretaker/or some other deus ex machina

Also, if 1 Cube knows how to do trime travel, ala first contact, then all cubes know how to do time travel. So it is concievable that the borg should really be able to assimulate everything and go back in time to reverse teh Wolf 359 issue. Unless the materials are so rare that there is only enough for 1 ship ever.

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Don't forget that the erm, race speaks in metaphores, Timber his arms wide, Jillard at Tanagra, when the walls fell, them, they were well known of yet they did not have "first contact" made for decades.

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Of course all of this wants me to play BotF with a Borg & Dominion mods

[Psychosplodge]

No The Race are lizards from iirc Tau Ceti aplha?

[bfmusashi]

I will hold Voyager as the nadir of the franchise.
Worst Kes era episode: Paris and Janeway have salamander babies.
Worst Seven era episode: Seven fights The Rock in the Square Circle and is still somehow boring.
At its worse Enterprise was just pretentious and boring with inconsistent characters. Voyager just didn't give a crap about its core concepts (limited supplies and a fractious crew) a season in. I can not disagree more with you about Vulcans Eldargal. They are always shows as emotional jerkwads who have slightly more self control than everyone else and revel in expressing that. Except maybe Tuvok, but he was stuck on a ship of idiots.

[Wolfshade]

TOS season 1 Spock was always being a ******* to McCoy

[Psychosplodge]

It's not the salamander babies that bother me about that one. It's the idea that warp 10 is some arbitrary barrier that **** happens if you go past it. Surely it's just a number?
I mean what would the odds of all warp capable cultures using the same scale?

[Wolfshade]

In "All Good Things" doesn't the future ship go faster than warp 10?

[Psychosplodge]

Probably.
But wasn't passing "the warp ten barrier" given as the reason for janeway and paris to "evolve" and bang?

[eldargal]

Yep. T'was a silly episode. Still think Voyager at its worst was better than Enterprise.:p

[Wolfshade]

Yes pretty much.

There was a re-calibration of the warp factor at some time.

But VOY did demonstrate sustained transwarp capabilities so that would break the theoretical warp 10 barrier

[Psychosplodge]

The future enterprise reached warp 13... no salamanders....

[eldargal]

Headcanon it that Paris just ****ed it up somehow.

[Wolfshade]

Could be either re-scaled warp system, or continuing to use warp scale for transwarp numbers, so warp 13 is transwarp 3

[Wildeybeast]

The only redeeming feature of voyager is the presence of howling mad Murdock. Janeway was the worst captain ever, which is a shame because she is excellent as Flemeth. Though Enterprise wins the award for worst series ending ever.

[Wolfshade]

I like VOY, though ingoring the doctor episodes, Kes & Neelix and any episode before the Scorpion pt I

[eldargal]

Janeway was an excellent captain.><

[Wolfshade]

Janeway was an excellent captain.><

Despite people messing with her hair every episode!

[Psychosplodge]

Later Janeway was better than early Janeway.
I Think Wolfie seems to have the best way to watch Voyager

[Wildeybeast]

Janeway was an excellent captain.><

Worst. Captain. Ever. And I include in that list Archer, Riker on the rare occasion he is trusted enough to be left in charge and Ferris Bueller's mate from Generations who took his starship out of port equipped only with an engine and oxygen supply.

[Wolfshade]

At least she was fairly joined up, look at DS9 you have Bashir who is a drug mutated super genius who makes stupid mistakes and generally shows complete lack of intelligence at times, then other times he knows everything. Incosistent.

[eldargal]

No way, Archer was horrendous.

[Wildeybeast]

Janeway's problem is rather than make a female captain with her own identity, they tried to make a female Sisko. It didn't work.

[eldargal]

Don't see that at all.

[Wildeybeast]

But then you like Voyager so your judgement is clearly flawed. :p

[Wolfshade]

What, she got less annoying when she shaved her head and grew a goatie?

[Wildeybeast]

'I'm softly spoken but with a steely determination and no-nonsense attitude and BALLS, which I must have had to make to it to the top as a woman/ethnic minority because I couldn't have possibly got here on my own merit or having any other character traits.'

'Also, I'm not f#*^ing Picard.'

[Mr Mystery]

Janeway was an excellent captain.><

If she ain't no Captain Baldylocks, she ain't no Captain at all.

I mean seriously - Picard is someone you can see the crew following into hell and back.

Janeway? I dunno. Seems a bit whiny to me at times.

[Wildeybeast]

I'm glad someone else agrees

[Mr Mystery]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Khrpy4V0-U4

Set phasers tae Malky!

[bfmusashi]

Janeway suffers from not being Captain "Fiction's most delightful Marry Sue" Picard. I say that as an ardent Picard fan, but the dude did lead an alien invasion that crippled Star Fleet, but faced zero repercussions. Janeway gets thrown into a strange part of the galaxy, has to make first contact with a sometimes hostile crew and arrange for resources on the fly. She's also got to fight the borg and the undine alone while having no one to talk to. I excuse her weirder behavior as expressions of stress. Archer has not been trained for his job, as his job is brand new and no one has experience in it. He's watched an alien race retard the progress of his people into the stars under the guise of friendship. That there are so few horrible first contacts during these initial missions is a credit to him.

[Mr Mystery]

Not like Picard had much of a choice in that matter now is it? He literally wasn't himself.

Picard does massively benefit from being an actual proper actor of course. Interviews with the rest of the case praise his assistance in raising their own game.

For my money? Had Patrick Stewart not been cast, TNG would have sunk largely without trace.

Especially when he deals with Q. Brilliant facial expressions, and a distinct 'FFS, what now?' air!

[eldargal]

Picard was unusually brilliant and was the break out role for one of the best British actors alive so it is a bit hard to compare on that front. Janeway is extremely competent and efficient in extremely difficult circumstances in my opinion.

[Mr Mystery]

Just don't like the character. Actress and acting is fine.

Didn't take to any of the Voyager crew.

Fave line?

'No, I am not dead. Because I refuse to believe the afterlife is run by you (meaning Q). The universe is not that badly designed'.

Glorious!

[Denzark]

Picard was not a breakout role he was well established in international film...

[eldargal]

He was a prominentish actor yes, he was not the huge star he was after TNG ended.

[bfmusashi]

He wouldn't be on my wife's celebrity do list if not for tng.

[eldargal]

Yup, it made him a household name is the point I'm getting at. He wouldn't be a pop culture icon without TNG, he wouldn't have got the X-Men roles without TNG probably and he admits himself he will mostly be remembered for TNG and he is happy with it.

[Wolfshade]

It was on the back of TNG that he got voted as the world's sexiest man