Were female Primarchs the next step in the Emperor's plan?

[Mr Mystery]

How do!

So, background says - no female Space Marines, because there aren't. And chromosomes and that.

Yet, was that always The Emperor's plan?

Let's look at what we know about The Primarchs, and their creation.

Bare bones - They were 'spun off' from The Emperor's own DNA. Tinkered with, Gene Scienced (FOR SCIENCE!). And, ultimately, whisked away incomplete. They hadn't properly finished cooking when the Chaos Gods wheefed them away.

The Legionnes Astartes? They were the best of a bad situation. A consolation prize, created from what The Emperor had left over. Literally the scraps left over from the process of creating the Primarchs. One could argue, the Space Marines as we know them we something of an emergency Plan B.

So, being made largely from the Emperor's genetic template, and The Emperor being male, it seems likely that it was easier to make The Primarchs male as well. Yet the level of genetic engineering involved, and that we have seen from the Heresy novels there were stages in between, as The Emperor tinkered ever further, could suggest that the Primarchs were not necessarily the final step in his experiments.

We also know that The Emperor was definitely working toward a timescale. He knew the Warp Storms were about to abate, hence the Unification Wars being launched when they were (he had been waiting for a while!). The abduction of The Primarchs was something of a set back.

So what if having successfully created the pinnacle of man's potential in male form, was the next step to create female Primarchs, and thus enabling the possibility of 'purebred' Primarchs, the result of y'know, between the various Primarchs.

I mean, The Emperor was seeking to dominate the Galaxy. It makes no sense to limit his options of super warriors to just half the populace. As it is, only a minority of male candidates would survive the implantation and training. But, if his work never fully came to fruition? It makes a lot more sense. He was forced to go off, if you'll excuse the unintentional pun, half cocked.

[Dalleron]

I don't think female primarchs were the next step in the Emprah's master plan. If the main goal of the primarch program was "bigger better faster stronger" then I think he was stuck using males, because lets face it, men are, GENERALLY speaking, bigger and stronger than women. I would say that there was no plan to breed primarchs, as a primarch was supposed to be the pinacle of the science. However, were you wanting to do something along those lines, you would need a jacked up super lady to give birth to the offspring that would come from the union.

I don't agree that space marines were emergency plan B. They were created to be the army the primarchs would lead into battle across the galaxy. Perhaps they could have been made better had the primarchs not been stolen/abducted or whatever you wanna call it.

[YorkNecromancer]

I always liked the idea that the two 'unknown' Primarchs were women, and that's why they're unknown - with the coming of the Imperial Creed and its more explicit misogyny, they became deniable. Either that or Malcador the Sigillite had some super-secret plan for them - some Chaos Daemon that cannot be killed by a man, so he makes sure that the female marines are in hiding until this Chaos force rears its head.

That's obvious not the case, because Games Workshop, but it always struck me as an easy way to introduce female marines into the fluff without overturning years of fluff - just have it turn out that the whole 'Men only!' genetics codswallop was a lie Malcador put in place; a dark secret all Apothecaries are sworn to uphold as part of their initiation.

You could even use it to introduce a new Chaos power - bring back Malal or something.

[Scion_of_Terra]

I was under the impression that Malcador was in favor of female space marines - as I recall, there's a bit in one of the HH books where he suggests the potential merits of 'battle-sisters'; Big E thinks he's joking and laughs it off. So if anyone, it's the Emperor who was the misogynist.

As for the Primarchs, they were supposed to be a way for the Emperor to administrate a galaxy-spanning empire, seeing as how he can't be in two (or twenty) places at once. They're not supposed to be soldiers, but mini-Emperors for him to delegate stuff to. Having armies of them would be counter-productive, as eventually there'd be too many competing Primarchs for an effective administration.

Finally, I don't think the Space Marines were necessarily an absolute last-ditch plan - Emps already had his Thunder Warriors before he started working on his Primarchs, and he used his research to create a more stable version of super-soldier as armies for the Primarchs to lead once he had found them. So he was planning on having both Primarchs and Space Marines in his empire.

Anyway, that's my two cents. The Emperor protects.

[eldargal]

Yup Malcador was totes proposing female Marines instead of chaps, which at the very least implies the technology allows it and the prohibition against it is just bollocks rather than actual science. I don't know if the Emperor intended to make female Primarchs though, I think he was a but of sexist **** to be honest.

[Path Walker]

I don't the Big E ever thought about using the Primarchs as anything more than vassals, he wanted to rule the Imperium himself, thats why he called himself the Emperor after all, he created the Primarchs to lead his armies and thats all, after the Crusade was done, he had no plan for them because he wouldn't need them any more, he's shown in the past (with the massacre of the Thunder Warriors) to have no problem in disposing of his gene-weapons once he's done with them.

[m3g4tr0n]

To be perfectly honest...no.

[Denzark]

I think when you see something in 40K FICTION that you think is an 'ism' from the 21st Century REAL WORLD, in 99% of cases you will be mistaken. I think the writers are too busy writing about dastardly aliens and supermen in giant robotic armour blowing sh*t up to think 'Oh hey, I am writing this book in Kent so I must have 12.78% characters from ethnicity a and 35.5% from sex b'.

I think they may occasionally signpost when a character's character is sex/age/rac/species/ist but that is character. If it isn't there, don't look for it and you may get more enjoyment.

I don't think the Emperor is a misogynist at all. He shows he will take whatever steps are necessary for the survival of the species against all else. With the Silent Sisters, female imperial army etc, there is clearly no imperial dictat against the use of females.

It is far more likely to be: a. Sticking with the (admittedly unscientific) science that says zygotes are for male use only or b. The fact that the homo sapiens from whence the primarchs originate, have the male as generally (yes feminism thread followers, generally) physically stronger.

To that end I doubt that female primarchs were the next step at all.

[John Grammaticus]

I always liked the idea that the two 'unknown' Primarchs were women, and that's why they're unknown - with the coming of the Imperial Creed and its more explicit misogyny, they became deniable. Either that or Malcador the Sigillite had some super-secret plan for them - some Chaos Daemon that cannot be killed by a man, so he makes sure that the female marines are in hiding until this Chaos force rears its head.

The two lost Primarchs are referred to as "brothers" a few times, so whilst it is a really interesting idea it doesn't seem to fit. If they needed a LOTR-style witch king assassination I'm sure female members of the Officio Assasinorum could help?

[Mr Mystery]

It's literally taken as read that The Primarchs were the be all and end all of the Emperor's genetic tinkering, because that's where he stopped.

What isn't so well discussed is why he stopped. Had he really got to the end of it, or was there more to come?

Imagine Primarchs of both genders, able to birth yet more Primarchs. Can you think of a better Regent for each system than an honest to goodness Primarch?

Males would be easier to start with, to get right, as it would be easier to genewright the same gender as the donor tissue. Females could take a bit longer, as things need to be rekeyed. Yet, Sister of Silence, that many psychic blanks? That to me suggests some level of female super solider plan was under way.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Given how flawed the Primarchs were, Primarchs breeding would probably kill off Mankind and take up ownership of the Imperium, if not enslave them at the least.

[Mr Mystery]

But where did the flaw begin?

Was it nature, or nurture?

[CoffeeGrunt]

Does it matter, in all honesty? The flaws developed, whether it was by birth or by tutelage is irrelevant. Best case scenario is that dynasties of Primarchs form and war amongst other dynasties. Worst is that the Primarchs unify to enslave/overtake Mankind, seeing them as weak and unworthy of protection.

A family of Angrons would not warrant existence.

[Denzark]

I thought the flaws were what happened when Chaos stole the Primarchs away.

I don't consider it to be clear - if he needed only 20 Primarchs for his great plan, then there was no next step - beyond conquer the galaxy and fight chaos. If he needed more, why did he not make 40, 80 at the first step? Only logical thought on this is either - wait and see the first control group of 20 - or that making 20 was such an effort that, after chaos disrupted it, he considered otherwise.

Cos if he could have done it again, why wouldn't have he?

[John Grammaticus]

The length of time each Primarch was exposed to the warp is suggested to have had an influence, in the First Heretic, it says Lorgar was exposed/ held by Chaos for the longest and so became the first to turn traitor (excluding II/ XI Legions).

My thinking: Each Primarch is developed from part of the Emperor so by saying that a Primarch became evil because of his nature is to say that the Emperor is partly evil or conflicted, which goes against the idea of the Emperor as a God. So either the Primarchs fell because the Emperor was partly evil (nature) or because Chaos corrupted them completely (nurture). Equally the Chaos gods gave the Emperor the tools to create the Primarchs so maybe they tricked him into incorporating an evil gland or heresy organ as he was making them (nature). This all relates back to the question of who the Emperor really is, is he God, a very powerful human/ superhuman or even a rebel Chaos God?

As for why only 20 it seems to be suggested that it was about the timing of the Chaos Gods intervention to kidnap the Babymarchs, the technology to shield the development of more Primarchs from the influence of Chaos was lost, much like the gate Magnus broke when he sent his warning that was irreplaceable (The Emperor clearly didn't write down his working when making all these cool toys)

[Psychosplodge]

No, Malcedor while basicly confirming from his statement in whichever book it was that its possible, also essentially confirms the Emperor dismissed the idea as a joke as well.

[m3g4tr0n]

It's literally taken as read that The Primarchs were the be all and end all of the Emperor's genetic tinkering, because that's where he stopped.

What isn't so well discussed is why he stopped. Had he really got to the end of it, or was there more to come?

Imagine Primarchs of both genders, able to birth yet more Primarchs. Can you think of a better Regent for each system than an honest to goodness Primarch?

Males would be easier to start with, to get right, as it would be easier to genewright the same gender as the donor tissue. Females could take a bit longer, as things need to be rekeyed. Yet, Sister of Silence, that many psychic blanks? That to me suggests some level of female super solider plan was under way.


If you add a female primarch, and she ends up attaching herself to a male primarch, will they still be 100% loyal to the Emperor? Doubtful. Horus Heresy aside, the primarch couple would inevitably be less loyal.

[John Grammaticus]

As to the "technical difficulties" of creating female Primarchs, the fact that the Emperor is (presumably) genetically male = XY. Female is XX but even if a foetus has only one X chromosome (XO) it will still develop as a female. Biologically female is the default sex, without a Y chromosome the phenotype (the actual development of the body based on the genotype) is still mainly female. This is also why guys have nipples.

As to reproduction, XO is also known as Turner's syndrome and people with this condition are infertile and only have primitive ovaries. Therefore the Emperor would need to either create a new X chromosome or double up on his single one (which would increase the risk of recessive diseases). Where he would get this from isn't clear as to add in human DNA into the Primarchs would reduce their superhuman-ness. That's all assuming the Emperor and Primarchs are restricted to simple genetics. X chromosomes are far longer than Y chromosomes so it would take some doing to make a new one as the Y chromosome can't simply be modified into an X.

[eldargal]

If you add a female primarch, and she ends up attaching herself to a male primarch, will they still be 100% loyal to the Emperor? Doubtful. Horus Heresy aside, the primarch couple would inevitably be less loyal.

You mean if they add a female primarch and the boys start following her around like little idiot puppies trying to impress her. I also don't see why introducing a female primarch would suddenly make them less loyal, that seem an extremely dubious assumption and I want to see how you support the argument.

[Wolfshade]

Also, they would be brother and sister and that would be weird.

[eldargal]

Also, they would be brother and sister and that would be weird.

Circe of the Golden Lions legion.:p

Homeworld: Philadelphos. Damn I should do this for a HH army.

[Wolfshade]

Nothing like brotherly love...

[bfmusashi]

If he had the ability to create super ladies, why didn't he? At some point he had to have looked around and thought "Man, dating these kids all the time is kind of old, maybe I should make a fellow immortal. Y'know, have someone to talk to and maybe hook up with sometimes." I think it's a pretty problematic window into his character, not his technology, that this was avoided. As to lady Astartes I figured it was because the Marines were disposable, and men are almost always more disposable than women from a propagation standpoint.

[Wolfshade]

Being immortal he knew that teenage girls are too much of a handful even for him.

I think the question of sex is irrelevant, I don't think that they can reproduce sexually.

Or maybe the big E filled in the missing dna strands with frog dna so in the male rich environment they will turn female! When the allfather returns he shall be the allmother!

[bfmusashi]

Sex isn't performed solely for the creation of offspring for most individuals :) She wouldn't be a teenager forever like the women he supposedly made his babies with and she'd get that joke that was really popular in 500 AD. You can't put a price on that.

[Mr Mystery]

Main point I've been trying (and failing!) to make...

The Primarchs are considered the pinnacle of the Emperor's work, by dint of being the last thing he created, and by far the most powerful.

Yet it's only kind of assumed that there was no further step. We know he was unable or otherwise unwilling to recreate them after their abduction. But what if they were just the next step, and more was planned.

John Grammaticus raises some really cool biological points, and kind of (ish) supports my theory that it would be easier to create male clones, than somehow tinker with genomes to make female Primarchs. But it seems, given the level of tinkering that went on with Primarchs that such a feat may not have been beyond The Emperor's capabilities, had he kept the kids at home.....

As for a family of Angrons? Who knows how Angron should have turned out. He had the Butcher's Nails driven into his skull from a relatively young age, addicting him to rage and punch ups! Ditto many of the traitor Primarchs. It's a gross over simplification, but most of it stemmed from Daddy issues of one kind or another. If they'd been raised on Terra, and able to come to terms with their status under The Emperor's tutelage, instead of largely on their own, who knows what might have happened? Certainly given the abduction, it seems the Chaos Gods didn't want them being raised on Terra!

[CoffeeGrunt]

It's almost like 40K is a setting where great plans are torn asunder by thirsting Gods before they come to their utopian fruition, eh? Given the alluded-to Daemonic influence in creating the Primarchs, Chaos had a hold on them from the beginning. Something, somewhere would have turned against the Imperium, and a family of Primarchs would reap a terrible toll on the galaxy at large. Who's to say that growing up with daddy on Terra would have solved any of their issues anyway? The Emperor was a pretty bad father when he was present, nevermind his absence.

[Mr Mystery]

It is very dystopian. And very post-Imperial Britain, which is another thread in itself!

It's also hard to say whether The Emperor knew the Heresy would happen or not. There's suggestions here and there it was allowed for, but perhaps not the actual outcome.

Was The Emperor even an actual father? Was that his intent? I see him more as a Doctor Manhattan. Only barely, nominally human.

[Anggul]

The Emperor's goal was for humanity to reach full psychic potential and dominate the galaxy. It has nothing to do with gender. As said, the Primarchs were just tools for this goal.

[spagunk]

... the Primarchs were just tools for this goal.

I see what you did there.

[OKnights112]

I don't the Big E ever thought about using the Primarchs as anything more than vassals, he wanted to rule the Imperium himself, thats why he called himself the Emperor after all, he created the Primarchs to lead his armies and thats all, after the Crusade was done, he had no plan for them because he wouldn't need them any more, he's shown in the past (with the massacre of the Thunder Warriors) to have no problem in disposing of his gene-weapons once he's done with them.

You are right, there was not a plan for them after the Great Crusade but the Big E had something in mind for them. In the HH book, Corax goes below the Palace to a great chamber where the Primarchs could go after the Great Crusade.

[Anggul]

I see what you did there.

Aw yiss. Moronic man-children every one of them.

Except the Khan. The Khan is cool. Go read Scars.

[Tomgar]

No, because the Emperor worked for Ubisoft and female Primarchs would have meant, like, quintuple the budget or something.

In seriousness, nah I don't think so. The Emperor always struck me as quite sexist and more than a bit ****-esque in his methods. In his mind, women were probably there purely to breed more males to become soldiers and the idea of female Space Marines probably wouldn't even have occurred to him, echoing the way the ****s viewed women. Love the notion of him being Doctor Manhattan-esque btw, I'd love to see that explored!

I'd love the idea of female marines and Primarchs though. Not even as some separate legion but mixed in amongst the males.

[The_Gonk]

No, because the Emperor worked for Ubisoft and female Primarchs would have meant, like, quintuple the budget or something.

In seriousness, nah I don't think so. The Emperor always struck me as quite sexist and more than a bit ****-esque in his methods. In his mind, women were probably there purely to breed more males to become soldiers and the idea of female Space Marines probably wouldn't even have occurred to him, echoing the way the ****s viewed women. Love the notion of him being Doctor Manhattan-esque btw, I'd love to see that explored!

I'd love the idea of female marines and Primarchs though. Not even as some separate legion but mixed in amongst the males.

If you think your civilisation is under threat of extinction then you'll try to keep women out of harms way for biological reasons. So, it depends on the context in which The Emperor was creating the Primarchs. The Heresy stuff suggests The Emperor was working under a high level of threat, so the creation of female marines doesn't make much sense. It makes even less sense if there was any (any at all) greater risk in the process. The Emperor, though, may not be gendered at all depending on how things turn out. Old fluff said 'he fathered children' but this could be explained as genetic manipulation.

[Captain Bubonicus]

They'd all end up like Angron.

[Thamagorgos]

I always saw the Emperor more as a Stalin-esque figure in the lore... At best he is a benevolent tyrant, and at worst he is a genocidal despot.

That said, I don't think it would be in his character to create female primarchs or marines, because dictators usually tend to be a bit sexist, and he isn't really anything more than a dictator once you boil him all the way down to his core.

On a side note, I could have sworn that I've seen female space marine figures from old school 40k back in the Rogue Trader days. I mean, the space marines did have autonomous robots as heavy weapons platforms, so it isn't a big stretch.

[StraightSilver]

The thing is Space Marines (Adeptus Astartes), AFAIK, are neither male, nor female, they are both.

GW based Adeptus Astartes on biblical Angels, hence the Emperor's "Angels of Death". They certainly begin as "male" but once all of their implants are received and their geneseed matures and after extensive mental and chemical conditioning they give up their sex and become androgynous post-humans.

Angels in the Old Testament were neither male nor female, had no sex organs and were unable to naturally reproduce which is why they were so jealous of mankind, who they felt were unworthy of the ability to procreate.

Marines maintain their male sexual organs (although it is unclear whether they choose not to use them through psycho-conditioning or can't due to hormonal changes) and but they also gain geneseed, which is effectively the female part of reproduction that allows them procreate asexually.

So the question of why aren't there any female Space Marines is moot, as technically there aren't any male ones either, they forgo sexuality in order to gain their post human status and are effectively androgynous.

Now I know that might not fly as they certainly look male, but then so do all pictures of Angels in the Old testament which is pretty much what they are based on, and of course all Adeptus Astartes begin as male aspirants, but that's because their bodies are strong enough to undergo the changes needed.

However as has been already stated all foetuses begin as female and eventually become male or female in the womb.

Marines start life as Male and then become both male and female when all their implants are finished.

My point being is that I believe that the Primarchs, although clones of the Emperor were also effectively androgynous and therefore technically neither male or female.

And of course the Emperor himself was the result of multiple Shaman combining into one being, and it's never clear that they were all necessarily male.

[TBM]

All the other Primarchs were male, and all the lost unknown ones just happen to be female? That's way too convenient. If the Emperor was interested in creating female Primarchs, why would he have created 96% of their number as males? That's not the action of a man capable or willing to allow women into his legend.

[notwolf]

why only 20? why not do it again? hubris.

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If you add a female primarch, and she ends up attaching herself to a male primarch, will they still be 100% loyal to the Emperor? Doubtful. Horus Heresy aside, the primarch couple would inevitably be less loyal.

valid.

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You mean if they add a female primarch and the boys start following her around like little idiot puppies trying to impress her. I also don't see why introducing a female primarch would suddenly make them less loyal, that seem an extremely dubious assumption and I want to see how you support the argument.

nonono. LOVE.

[Kirsten]

You mean if they add a female primarch and the boys start following her around like little idiot puppies trying to impress her. I also don't see why introducing a female primarch would suddenly make them less loyal, that seem an extremely dubious assumption and I want to see how you support the argument.

the boys managed that pretty well all on their own anyway.


No, because the Emperor worked for Ubisoft and female Primarchs would have meant, like, quintuple the budget or something.

lol

[Guilliman's Ghost]

19088

[CoffeeGrunt]

You brought back a year-old thread for that? C'mon man, at least try harder.

[Psychosplodge]

But is it the thread or one particular comment?

[Ravingbantha]

Typically speaking, the reasons females are, more often than not, excluded from combat roles, is because they lack the capacity to do what a male counterparts can. It's not a 'let's hate on women' thing it's a reality thing. The US military has recently allowed women into combat roles, very few have actually been able to complete that training, and the few who have, did so because the fitness standards were lowered.

A female Space Marine would simply not compete with a male Space Marine, it's a matter of physical structure. Look at the World's Strongest Woman Kati Luoto, She can Squat 254lbs. Compare that to that to the world's strongest man Brian Shaw, who can Squat 825 lbs. Katie can deadlift around 374lbs Vs. Brian doing 880 lbs. Not to knock Kati's accomplishments in any way, she can clearly lift far more than my fat butt can, but I'm trying to compare apples to apples here. A Female Space Marine would be a waist of resources, yes they would be far more powerful than any Guardsman ever thought of being, but given the investment of resources, you're only getting half to one third of the return. Men are also more prone to the type of violence that comes with warfare, that's not to say a woman can't bring that type of violence, but we are talking about diminishing returns here. While there are many great women warriors throughout history, they are the exception not the rule. Which is part of the reason we know their names. You would be hard pressed to find enough women in the galaxy with the desire to become a marine, who also have the capacity for the violence necessary, are willing to give up ever having children, and could survive the implantation process, to fill an entire chapter, much less a legion.

[CoffeeGrunt]

So you've got a list of reasons why it's unlikely, not why it's impossible.

[Path Walker]

You would be hard pressed to find enough women in the galaxy with the desire to become a marine, who also have the capacity for the violence necessary, are willing to give up ever having children, and could survive the implantation process, to fill an entire chapter, much less a legion.

House Escher of Necromunda Hive Primus. There is one good source of warrior women, on a recruiting world of the Imperial Fists, and thats only one one of the many Hives on one of the thousands of Hive Worlds. You have worlds where everyone has to be Rambo to survive, the women there, after 15,000 years, will be only to happy to join up. You think any neophyte knows what they're signing up to then they become an Astartes? The childbearing question is such a pathetic thing to bring up when aspirants are usually under 10, almost all from planets where fighting is the norm, they're survivors first and foremost.

[CoffeeGrunt]

I sincerely doubt Catachan goes easy on the ladies either, and on Cadia, it doesn't matter what gender you are, you're either hitting the target with your lasgun by age 10, or you are the target.

[Mikhail233]

You would be hard pressed to find enough women in the galaxy with the desire to become a marine, who also have the capacity for the violence necessary, are willing to give up ever having children, and could survive the implantation process, to fill an entire chapter, much less a legion.

So how do they fill Sister of battle convents?

[Andrew Thomas]

So how do they fill Sister of battle convents?

They train them out of the Schola Progenium. Anyone who has read the fluff or played Dark Heresy would know that. Like I've said before, they're less nuns with guns, more heavily armed and less peaceful Peace Corps.

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House Escher of Necromunda Hive Primus. There is one good source of warrior women, on a recruiting world of the Imperial Fists, and thats only one one of the many Hives on one of the thousands of Hive Worlds. You have worlds where everyone has to be Rambo to survive, the women there, after 15,000 years, will be only to happy to join up. You think any neophyte knows what they're signing up to then they become an Astartes? The childbearing question is such a pathetic thing to bring up when aspirants are usually under 10, almost all from planets where fighting is the norm, they're survivors first and foremost.

And utterly unsubstantiated in the fluff.

[Andrew Thomas]

Aw yiss. Moronic man-children every one of them.

Except the Khan. The Khan is cool. Go read Scars.

Good ol' Khagan. Good kid.

Vulkan? Bit of a Mary Sue, but I like him. Too bad about Angron, Konrad, and the Doublemint Twins.

[Ravingbantha]

House Escher of Necromunda Hive Primus. There is one good source of warrior women, on a recruiting world of the Imperial Fists, and thats only one one of the many Hives on one of the thousands of Hive Worlds. You have worlds where everyone has to be Rambo to survive, the women there, after 15,000 years, will be only to happy to join up. You think any neophyte knows what they're signing up to then they become an Astartes? The childbearing question is such a pathetic thing to bring up when aspirants are usually under 10, almost all from planets where fighting is the norm, they're survivors first and foremost.


So how do they fill Sister of battle convents?

Neither of these examples take into account the surgery needed to turn a person into a marine. As I said, it's a matter of finding the right combinations to make one. Most chapters have a hard enough time filling their ranks as it is with men fulfilling all the criteria.

[CoffeeGrunt]

Thankfully, it's a deliberately-malleable setting with very few hard rules, and the process of creating a Space Marine is steeped in pseudoscience, so we don't have to worry about it being, "incorrect." :)

[Mr Mystery]

I think it's more the Astartes are overly fussy.

I find it curious that in the modern era, Chapters struggle to find quality recruits, when during the Great Crusade that really, seriously wasn't an issue at all for the Legions - which were comprised of hundreds of thousands of Astartes.

Now, we do have to take into account Geneseed degradation, and that there's no new sources of Geneseed - plus the culture shock the heresy brought about.

But even then, I think it's more the Chapters wanting the best of the best than the process itself.

[Psychosplodge]

And utterly unsubstantiated in the fluff.

There's plenty of references to female soldiers in the imperium of man in the fluff.
The first Cain book is about integrating two Valhallan single sex units into a mixed unit plus some side story about shooting xenos or something.
The Lieutenant in Space Marine.
Just two easy to find examples without any effort. It's not beyond thought that something like house Escher would provide a perfect source of recruits for the Imperial warmachine. I've got a feeling there's a reference somewhere in the background to the Necromunden 7th being a female regiment.

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Now, we do have to take into account Geneseed degradation, and that there's no new sources of Geneseed - plus the culture shock the heresy brought about.

But even then, I think it's more the Chapters wanting the best of the best than the process itself.

It could also be the rejection rates are artificially high due to the ritualisation and lack of understanding. In the great crusade they implant a neophyte and he gets a bit green round the edges they knew what needed doing to rebalance things and make him well again. M41? bollocks lost another one...

[Mr Mystery]

That is also true.

Man, I love how the true enemy - the only true enemy in 40k is ignorance.

Then I look around at our world, and really start to panic

[Morgrim]

Baseline women cannot put on the same muscle mass as baseline men, I totally agree. But as soon as you add steroids into the equation that gap narrows massively until you have only slight variations, ones that are comparable to the variation between groups of male body builders. So by the time you graft on all the bits that go into making a Space Marine, you're going to get the same kind of result no matter what starting bodymass you began with.

The trials for applicants have very little to do with strength. They have a lot to do with courage, grit and determination. Because those are things that can't be taught; any weedy kid with enough attitude can be taught to do pushups, but a prime athlete can't be taught to run headfirst into gunfire. (That's one of the reasons the special forces trials are more about endurance than physical skills. You've got to have a certain minimum, but you get multiple chances at those bits. The hardest part is not dropping out before the end.) And that's not a gendered trait.

[Mr Mystery]

Indeed.

Remember, Astartes are raised well above human. They're post-human - an idealised vision of the perfect warrior.

And that's achieved through serious gene tinkering.

The whole gist of this thread is 'what if?', based on the sure and certain knowledge that the abduction of the Primarchs meant the Astartes we know today were essentially a stop gap measure - Mr Emperor Sir needed to find his kids, and that necessitated an army.

Who knows how delayed the Great Crusade might've been had the Primarch's not been scattered? We're told it was the clearing of Warp Storms that meant the Crusade was launched, but was that simply because it was Mr Emperor Sir's first chance to find them, and at least try to get his plans back on track? We'll never know.

We also know from one of the novels (I forget which, apologies) that Malcador had advocated female Astartes over male, so that at least suggests, if not confirms, it could be done - but given Mr Emperor Sir is, as far as we know, male, it may have been simple expedience - it was easier to work from his chromosomes than adapt it to a wider set.

The concept that women are less violent than men is entirely subjective, if not outright wrong. It's a societal expectation for the most part - and if you've ever seen women scrapping on a Friday night (affectionately known round my way as Bacardi Bruisers), let me tell you it's not a pretty sight at all - it's far more vicious than the 'grab, tussle, wrestle on the floor' you tend to see drunken blokes going for. I'm talking eye gouging, hair pulling, scratching, biting, strangulation - that's not the actions of a gender not disposed toward physical violence at all.

[CoffeeGrunt]

And if you wanna say, "yeah but women don't fight as well as men," let me introduce you to the Peshmerga (http://abcnews.go.com/International/women-war-meet-female-peshmerga-fighters-taking-isis/story?id=39142160). Kurdistan is actually far better at gender equality than most countries, and arguably better in some ways than the West. They've been part of the Kurdish military since 1992 facing off against Saddam as well as ISIS.

Not to mention many female units throughout history who were generally erased afterwards as women in war were historically seen as a dishonourable last resort. Their role was to be victims or to be protected in most societies, even when they weren't.

[Andrew Thomas]

There's plenty of references to female soldiers in the imperium of man in the fluff.
The first Cain book is about integrating two Valhallan single sex units into a mixed unit plus some side story about shooting xenos or something.
The Lieutenant in Space Marine.
Just two easy to find examples without any effort. It's not beyond thought that something like house Escher would provide a perfect source of recruits for the Imperial war machine. I've got a feeling there's a reference somewhere in the background to the Necromundan 7th being a female regiment.

Totally not what I was disputing.

[Psychosplodge]

Ah It read like you were disputing the idea of recruiting from house escher. My bad if I read that wrong.

[Dyolfnai]

A Primarch on a period, the galaxy will burn!

Actually that might explain Angron 😜

[Path Walker]

Neither of these examples take into account the surgery needed to turn a person into a marine. As I said, it's a matter of finding the right combinations to make one. Most chapters have a hard enough time filling their ranks as it is with men fulfilling all the criteria.

Yes the imaginary super-surgery and genetherapy couldn't possibly apply to women, how would they possible do such a thing?

By just making it up?

Oh... wait...

Your point is based of a made up thing not being able to work on women, when its just as easy for GW to say it does work on women. Can you quote me precisely where it says that the space marine creation process can only work on men?

[eldargal]

A Primarch on a period, the galaxy will burn!

Actually that might explain Angron 😜

Female primarchs can't have burnt much more of the galaxy than the men did.

- - - Updated - - -



Your point is based of a made up thing not being able to work on women, when its just as easy for GW to say it does work on women. Can you quote me precisely where it says that the space marine creation process can only work on men?
There is a line somewhere about how the Marine organs only work on men because they require 'male hormones' to function, the trouble with that is there is no such thing. There are no male exclusive hormones, not even testosterone. But even if it were an actual reason, it's made up, they have complete control over it, they could change it in an instant.

[Psychosplodge]

They're gamedesigners goddamit Jim, not a doctor.

[grimmas]

Yes the imaginary super-surgery and genetherapy couldn't possibly apply to women, how would they possible do such a thing?

By just making it up?

Oh... wait...

Your point is based of a made up thing not being able to work on women, when its just as easy for GW to say it does work on women. Can you quote me precisely where it says that the space marine creation process can only work on men?

It's in the original creation of a Space Marine article in White Dwarf 98 and reprinted In the Compilation and more recently in the Index Astares apocrypha and possibly in other more recently in other publications, it came up in HH Scars. It says the implants are keyed to male hormones and tissues types so men only Space Marines. It is fantasy though so entirely made up.

[Denzark]

It remains canon in this fictional universe. May be bad RL science, but remains canon.

Actually MM (I think) came up with an interesting point. Why do current chapters have such difficulty recruiting when legions didn't?

Leads to the question, why would you limit your recruiting pool because its so hard to achieve success, ie why use only males if females would give more chance of success based on sheer numbers?

Or is it because the base average male is more robust in terms of physicality?

Is it even simpler - the warrior cultures that the SM recruit from - Fenris, Plains People, Inwit, Baal etc - have admittedly nails women - but don't want to give up their tribe's breeders?

You could say 'well the imperium could get some exceptional female stock with military skills built in from places like Cadia'.

But why would they degrade the Cadian's planetary strengths by recruiting to SM chapters?

[CoffeeGrunt]

The Marines also draw from other sources, such as Hive Gangers or criminals; anyone who would be good stock and a bit murderous.

[grimmas]

They don't have difficulty they just need less recruits, chapters are only (mostly) 1000 strong not 100000+ With no upper limit like a Legion a restriction imposed by the Imperium itself rather than one of necessity. They have also changed role from the main stay of the military to a special operations force so take casualties at a far lower rate, due to much smaller deployments.

Canon wise it could only be men or women and they chose men they're not using female recruits because they don't just fancy it, it's because the implants won't work on them. That's the fluff

On the subject of Primarchs an important point on them is made in Preatorian of Dorn, they aren't and never have been human they're beings created by the emperor there's no evidence to suggest they have any reproductive capability (not entirely necessary in a functionalily immortal being) or indeed represent a related species they might be unique being in themselves. They certainly possess some very different physical characteristics wings, metal skin etc.

[CoffeeGrunt]

IIRC Magnus is described as not even having anything worldly or so mundane as internal organs. I've always believed the Primarchs were effectively daemons bound by weird science to become something more. Might explain their childish emotions, too. :P

[grimmas]

I'm not sure on full daemons but Vengeful Spirit does suggest that the Emperor did enter into some sort of pact with the chaos gods to allow for their creation. They do all seem to possess a few character flaws don't they 😖

[Psychosplodge]

More than that, didn't it say he didn't uphold his end of the bargain he struck with them?

[Denzark]

I've only just re-read it in the last 3 weeks and that was notable to me. Did Emp foresee treacehry by Chaos - or was it the other way round. When various people in the series get into the lab (it seems to get an almost daily influx of psychic visitors) did they cause the damage, or is it all just some massive holodeck episode?

All in all I get a sense of inevitability when considering the heresy. Leads me to ask, was that exactly the way Emp planned it all?

[Mr Mystery]

I dunno.

There's definitely hints that, perhaps, this was the Emperor's plan all along.....but it just doesn't feel very 40k to me at all.

I much prefer him thinking he's got it all planned out like a Clever Mr Emperor Sir, all the while Tzeentch is awaiting just the right moment to drop a celestial spanner in the works.

All planned? Too clean.

Oh.....that's gone wrong then - Mmmm! Futility!

[CoffeeGrunt]

Yeah, I can't help but feel that the Emperor is supposed to be the epitome of, "best laid plans of mice and men." Even a super-psychic God-human can still have his plans torn asunder by the Chaos Gods in ways he couldn't have even imagined. He was the best of us, but he was still ultimately very human.

[Mr Mystery]

However, I do like the idea that a returned Emperor has at least a chance to turn the tide - a background of futility and screaming at the night is fun, but not as much fun as when there's a chance, no matter how slim, they might survive to see the new dawn.

Which is why I'm intrigued by the Black Crusade books, and Eldrad's current shenanigans - indeed all the recent 40k background where against all expectations, it seems the clock is grinding on to at least one minute to midnight after all these years.

And for me? We have AoS to thank for that. I know the usual group were all butthurt that Chaos triumphed, yet it was all for naught (Old World wasn't a Chaos victory....and that's on Archaon. They wanted it, but Archaon blew it up!), but to have actual, genuine hope in the background is very interesting paradigm shift - it's not about trying to keep that last candle burning, but seeing how many more you can light from that single flame - and can you light them faster than Chaos can snuff them? So much more interesting than 'everything you do is ultimately completely futile'. I mean, it's almost certainly completely futile...but only almost.

For those not au fait with AoS....we're currently at the same sort of stage as The Great Crusade. Mankind ascendant, pushing back the night - though with less genocide and more of a 'look, if we all just pull together now, and sort out our differences later' type alliance. Some solid gains made, but still far from enough. Whether we'll see some kind of Heresy type era (if we do, my money is on either Malekith/Malerion or Nagash being the ones, rather than the Stormcast) remains to be seen!

I really hope Black Crusade helps to lever 40k out of the corner it boxed itself into - ultimately, the victor is going to be Chaos, or Tyranids - and most likely Tyranids. Everyone else is just about holding their own. I know it's intended to be grim and dark, but you've still got to have that light. (me, I want Abaddon to break out of the Cadian Gate with a massive force, then snuff it. This will change the face of the Chaos threat. They're no longer unified, but no longer largely contained. They could be anywhere or everywhere. So much more interesting!)

[Denzark]

I don't want the prime threat to be tyranids or necrons - I worry someone will do an Imperial/Chaos fistbump and that is too unlikely.

[Mr Mystery]

I think a more dispersed Chaos threat is a greater Chaos threat.

I mean, right now, if the Imperial Forces could take out Abaddon whilst he's in the Eye of Terror, pretty much everything is ruined for Chaos - no central leader figurehead means infighting, leading a lack of organisation. That's the Imperium's best hope really - especially as the power vacuum in such a small (galactically speaking!) area would be devastating due to the attrition and murder and that.

But.....break out of the Eye with the invasion fleets? Scatter them around the Galaxy in 'about as co-ordinated as you can hope for' manner? That's powerful - forces the Imperium to spread it's forces, and particularly it's Astartes really, really thinly.

Then introduce the anarchy back to Chaos. Have Abaddon ultimately fail, and pay for that with his life (one way or another). Suddenly, you've got hundreds if not thousands or even tens of thousands of Chaos Warbands abroad in the wider Imperium, with no-one and nothing to answer to.

That could potentially relieve some pressure on the Cadian system, but at the cost of mobility elsewhere - think of the number of key worlds then requiring a permanent, heavy garrison to ward of Chaos attacks?

That to me is where Black Crusade needs to wind up - change the picture, alter the face of warfare if not the actual balance of power. Kill off some characters, but not armies (that would be really, really dumb. And nigh on impossible!)

[Mr Mystery]

Hmmm....

Wonder if Fabius Bile has been able to adapt Geneseed for implantation into women.

I mean, if anyone's so much as tried it, it's gonna be Fabius 'just for the lols, really' Bile. And he's the most likely to succeed, seeing he clone Primarchs and that.

[Jmaximum]

I always liked the idea that the two 'unknown' Primarchs were women, and that's why they're unknown - with the coming of the Imperial Creed and its more explicit misogyny, they became deniable. Either that or Malcador the Sigillite had some super-secret plan for them - some Chaos Daemon that cannot be killed by a man, so he makes sure that the female marines are in hiding until this Chaos force rears its head.

That's obvious not the case, because Games Workshop, but it always struck me as an easy way to introduce female marines into the fluff without overturning years of fluff - just have it turn out that the whole 'Men only!' genetics codswallop was a lie Malcador put in place; a dark secret all Apothecaries are sworn to uphold as part of their initiation.

You could even use it to introduce a new Chaos power - bring back Malal or something.

I believe the name is 'Malice', which, contrary to the name, was pro-Emp/mankind and wanted to HELP against the other chaos dominant powers (there's been multiple hints that there's more than 4 major chaos powers). And, seeing as GW now has the license to LoTR, and the 'I cannot be killed by man blah blah blah'. And, no $#!t, there were two, TWO!, female space marines minis made back in the 80's.