Jink: Suggested Rewrite Faq

[Caitsidhe]

The changes to Jink in 7th Edition have been rather profound. There have also, due to a lack of play testing, had several unintended consequences. Right now the only downside to using Jink is that you will be doing Snap Shots on your subsequent Turn. This isn't much of a downside to units that don't shoot or don't care, particularly those used for close combat. I want to state up front that my Winged Nurgle Daemon Princes have been having a field day. They now have a 2+ Cover save at all times, and fear only those things which ignore cover. They never even bother going to the air (not that I did much before) which means they aren't slowed down in assault at all. They no longer have to hop from cover to cover.

What I am suggesting is that the rule for Jink needs to be expanded in the Faq thus:

In addition to only being able to fire Snap Shots, units which use the Jink rule must, on the next assault (and this includes the one they are engaged in currently if they Jink against Overwatch) roll 3D6 and drop the highest die when determining their charge range. They still suffer the -2" for terrain (unless they have another rule that mitigates that). This same rule applies to any troops which disembark from an assault vehicle which used the Jink rule.

[Ben_S]

That would be changing the rule, rather than an FAQ. Is it necessary? (What evidence do you have that it was unintended?)

I don't see (fluff wise) why jinking should penalise a CC-focused FMC. There may be a case from the point of view of rules/game balance. I've not played with FMCs under either 6th or 7th, but I gather that they took a bit of a hit due to changes elsewhere in the rules, so maybe the jink helps even it out. But the increased availability of a jink cover save is indeed a boost for Nurlge DPs in particular - perhaps the cost should have been adjusted accordingly (at least, for winged DPs).

[Harley]

Doesn't a FMC have to be Swooping to use Jink and if so cannot assault the same turn anyhow?

[DarkLink]

Don't see a need for this. Your Nurgle DP is one of relatively few units affected, and he's what, like 300pts? That's reasonably tough for a 300pt model.

[David Crossley]

Doesn't a FMC have to be Swooping to use Jink and if so cannot assault the same turn anyhow?

No, it just states that FMC's have jink and vector strike in addition to all the other special rules MC's have. Vector strike obviously can only be used when swooping or zooming, whereas Jink has no such restriction.

[Charon]

What I am suggesting is that the rule for Jink needs to be expanded in the Faq thus:

In addition to only being able to fire Snap Shots, units which use the Jink rule must, on the next assault (and this includes the one they are engaged in currently if they Jink against Overwatch) roll 3D6 and drop the highest die when determining their charge range. They still suffer the -2" for terrain (unless they have another rule that mitigates that). This same rule applies to any troops which disembark from an assault vehicle which used the Jink rule.

So basically you want to hit dark eldar even harder?

[Caitsidhe]

No, I don't want to any particular group hit harder than others (Dark Eldar). But I do think that Bikes which are jinking to incredible levels (usually due to their awesome riding skills) should be slowed down on the assault when they are doing the crazy serpentine. I do think that FMC with Shrouded (and there are ways to get it without being Nurgle) probably don't need to be a 2+ cover save without some penalty for it. :D My commentary is based on rules in balance and nothing more. I'm talking about weakening my own models too (mine more than most).

Right now Jink penalizes someone shooting but not assaulting. That is weird from a narrative standpoint, and it is weird from a balance standpoint. It interacts in horrific ways with Be'Lakor. Assuming he casts invisibility on himself or another Winged Nurgle Prince you are looking at a close combat monster that most people need a six to hit who then proceeds to ignore your hit on a 2+. If they intended for that interaction, they are idiots. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt on an oversight. Why would anyone every take ANY Winged Daemon Prince that wasn't Be'lakor or Nurgle? The investment in a Daemon Prince is just too steep not to take the one that will get a crazy save against all shots that don't ignore cover.

But to put things in perspective, consider my Nurgle Bikers tricked out and shrouded. Led by the appropriate CSM Warlord on a Bike, or simply racing side by side with the aforementioned Daemon Prince toward the target, and things get ugly very quickly. If this was their way of trying to put assault back into the game, I think it is ham-handed and doesn't work across the board. Look, I'm a very logistical player. If these things stay in the game as they stand, I'm going to use them. I would prefer lots of things get fixed but barring that I will have to use the weapons other people do. As my friend Kerstan (who has been playing me since 7th hit) can tell you, Winged Nurgle Daemon Princes have been so far over the top it hasn't even been funny. We have watched as two entire armies (it was two on two game) fired everything they had at my Daemon Princes and the net sum was a wound applied to each before said DPs proceeded to destroy the opposing armies with no support from the rest of my points.

[Caitsidhe]

Here is something I have already tried out, courtesy of Be'lakor. As a FMC who has Shrouded innately and all the Telepathy powers you are guaranteed to be able to keep up with your Bikes (assuming you don't Turbo Boost although I suppose if he was in the air he could keep up then too). Be'lakor casts the WC-1 Shrouding and hops alongside a full unit of tricked out Nurgle Bikers (with or without a CSM Lord too). Invisibility will be on one unit or the other. At the speed afforded them, both units will be on top of the opponent in record time and which of the crazy super-charged units are you going to shoot at when they both have a crazy save?

[Charon]

You cant just ignore the massive colateral damage you are doing to other armies just because 1 or 2 units might be a problem.
A more easy fix to MoN FMC would be to allow jink only when actually flying not when jumping.

Jink beeing better for melee than for shooting is ok balance wise as shooting is anyways superior to melee in nearly every other aspect.

[Caitsidhe]

You cant just ignore the massive colateral damage you are doing to other armies just because 1 or 2 units might be a problem.
A more easy fix to MoN FMC would be to allow jink only when actually flying not when jumping.

Jink beeing better for melee than for shooting is ok balance wise as shooting is anyways superior to melee in nearly every other aspect.

The problem is Jink wasn't created just for Flyers, nor is it just a problem for Flyers. Jink is just another easy to get save which can be boosted to extreme levels. It isn't that hard to get it with rerolls too. :D

[hyudun]

Yeah, the rest of my chaos army tends to under-perform so much that I'm not sure this is an issue worth addressing, and assaulting in general with anything is hard enough as it is.

Also, I tend to charge only when I can get <6 inches with the 12" jump move anyway. My DPs are usually used to hunt slower/stationary units or serve as a counter-charge, so I'm not sure this rule change would have a significant enough impact to your liking.


Edit: grammar

[Charon]

The problem is Jink wasn't created just for Flyers, nor is it just a problem for Flyers. Jink is just another easy to get save which can be boosted to extreme levels. It isn't that hard to get it with rerolls too. :D

An "easy to get save"...
What was jink in 6th then when you just had to move 0,01" to get your 5+ jink without drawbacks?
Still curious how DE "deserve" the collateral damage effect you would put on their already nerfed vehicles ("there is no escape", 5+ jink gone)?
Thats like "Oh **** there is a spider in my apartment. I better burn down the house. Neighbours? Dont care about them its about my apartment."

[DarkLink]

Yeah, definitely not seeing the issue here. The DP CSM bike list is only particularly nasty due to Invisibility. It's not like last edition Nurgle DPs couldn't assault out of flyer mode and still get a 2+ cover. I mean, heaven forbid expensive units actually be decently survivable, or that an assault unit be decent.

[hyudun]

An "easy to get save"...

Let's not also forget that it is pretty easy to deny for a number of armies as well.

[Caitsidhe]

Heh. Ok, I tried. It may be that my perspective on this is different since I've been extensively testing the combinations and found myself ripping the ever living crap out of things. If the rest of you think it is fine, perhaps I'm being too hard on myself.

[DarkLink]

Yeah, not saying it isn't a powerful ability, but how survivable is a 4 wound Daemon Prince with a 3+ cover on the ground? Not 300pts survivable. Assault units have to be fast and durable to reach assault, without that they're worthless. Not that I think GW puts that much thought into their rules, but that's a solid reason why Jink precludes shooting normally but doesn't affect assault.

[LCS]

An "easy to get save"...
What was jink in 6th then when you just had to move 0,01" to get your 5+ jink without drawbacks?
Still curious how DE "deserve" the collateral damage effect you would put on their already nerfed vehicles ("there is no escape", 5+ jink gone)?
Thats like "Oh **** there is a spider in my apartment. I better burn down the house. Neighbours? Dont care about them its about my apartment."
Dat straw man. Nice.

[Path Walker]

Dat straw man. Nice.

Does anyone else turn off as soon as some guy who took "Internet Arguments 101" uses "straw man argument" incorrectly?

An analogy isn't a straw man argument.

[Caitsidhe]

Yeah, not saying it isn't a powerful ability, but how survivable is a 4 wound Daemon Prince with a 3+ cover on the ground? Not 300pts survivable. Assault units have to be fast and durable to reach assault, without that they're worthless. Not that I think GW puts that much thought into their rules, but that's a solid reason why Jink precludes shooting normally but doesn't affect assault.

He will have a 2+ save even on the ground, except in close combat. Winged Nurgle Daemon Princes (being shrouded) have a 2+ Cover save due to Jink at all times. Combined with Invisibility (and the fact that said DP carrying the Black Mace and going first will destroy considerable numbers) is very survivable. Mine have been holding up to ridiculous amounts of fire and close combat. On top off that, if you have the points and max out their ML and pour it into Biomancy, you have a pretty good chance at being Toughness-8 and/or having Eternal Warrior and IWND. I seem to get Life Leech frequently and then heal what little damage I take.

[Anggul]

Shrouded is pretty much the only situation that warrants this, and even then it's not a huge deal. If anything the only change that needs to be made to jink is to make it less harsh on dedicated gunboats like Fire Prisms.

[Lord Krungharr]

Does anyone else turn off as soon as some guy who took "Internet Arguments 101" uses "straw man argument" incorrectly?

An analogy isn't a straw man argument.

I think straw men would get Stealth and Shrouded due to being skinny and looking like terrain, but would suffer instant death to weapons that use the flamer template.

[DarkLink]

He will have a 2+ save even on the ground, except in close combat. Winged Nurgle Daemon Princes (being shrouded) have a 2+ Cover save due to Jink at all times.

Oh, I know, I was just comparing to last edition when you were always flying and had a 3+ cover instead (terrain plus Shrouding). He's pretty survivable, but less so and slower to boot. That he's still very survivable is a good thing, otherwise he wouldn't be worth all those points.

Now, Invisibility is broken, and Iron Arm kinda is too. Those powers are absolutely absurd, especially when you can toss them on stuff like the Daemon Prince. But it's those powers that are broken, not the Jink rules.

[LCS]

Oh, I know, I was just comparing to last edition when you were always flying and had a 3+ cover instead (terrain plus Shrouding). He's pretty survivable, but less so and slower to boot. That he's still very survivable is a good thing, otherwise he wouldn't be worth all those points.

Now, Invisibility is broken, and Iron Arm kinda is too. Those powers are absolutely absurd, especially when you can toss them on stuff like the Daemon Prince. But it's those powers that are broken, not the Jink rules.

Oh God, Iron Arm on a nurgle demon prince. Played against a friends CD/CSM summoning army. The extra demons were annoying, but manageable. However,his 80 point herald that turned into a Great Unclean One took me three turns of CC to kill. He was against 5 Deathwing Knight, a GK Librarian, Azrael,and a DA librarian. 80 points held off almost 800 for three turns. Balanced.

[John Bower]

Looks to me like a case of typical GW not proofreading what they have written. I bet the intention is jink while flying, not while running around on the ground. Remember that when gliding you follow all the normal rules for Jump infantry, which don't have Jink. I think unfortunately GW do sometimes expect people to apply some common sense instead of thinking 'can WAAC players make use of that rule or bend it somehow for advantage?'

If a player said his FMC was jinking to me I'd say 'oh so you're swooping then? In that case you can't be charging me.'

[Anggul]

Looks to me like a case of typical GW not proofreading what they have written. I bet the intention is jink while flying, not while running around on the ground. Remember that when gliding you follow all the normal rules for Jump infantry, which don't have Jink. I think unfortunately GW do sometimes expect people to apply some common sense instead of thinking 'can WAAC players make use of that rule or bend it somehow for advantage?'

If a player said his FMC was jinking to me I'd say 'oh so you're swooping then? In that case you can't be charging me.'

Not at all. They're still in the air, but they're gliding rather than swooping at full speed, so they can still twist and turn out of the line of fire. It's pretty clearly intentional to slightly make up for the inability to charge after switching to glide.

[John Bower]

Not at all. They're still in the air, but they're gliding rather than swooping at full speed, so they can still twist and turn out of the line of fire. It's pretty clearly intentional to slightly make up for the inability to charge after switching to glide.

I'll see if you think that when somebody has one against you and casts Invisibility on him as well.... ;)

[marful]

Looks to me like a case of typical GW not proofreading what they have written. I bet the intention is jink while flying, not while running around on the ground.
If only "flying models" could Jink, then what about Bikes, Jet Bikes and Skimmers. Under that rules addendum none of those could Jink as they can't fly (the first of which runs around on the ground.)

Or...

Jink is independent of a model being able to fly. And is in fact representative of a models agility and evasive ability.

[daboarder]

Looks to me like a case of typical GW not proofreading what they have written. I bet the intention is jink while flying, not while running around on the ground. Remember that when gliding you follow all the normal rules for Jump infantry, which don't have Jink. I think unfortunately GW do sometimes expect people to apply some common sense instead of thinking 'can WAAC players make use of that rule or bend it somehow for advantage?'

If a player said his FMC was jinking to me I'd say 'oh so you're swooping then? In that case you can't be charging me.'
Because THIS THING
9929
is clearly crawling on the ground when not swooping

[DarkLink]

If a player said his FMC was jinking to me I'd say 'oh so you're swooping then? In that case you can't be charging me.'

And when he pulls out the rulebook and points out that it's explicitly legal? Do you just make up rules in your head and hold your opponent to them? That's a nice trick. Maybe next time I play someone I'll tell them that there's a rule that prevents them from shooting any of my units.