BAN the Invisibility!

[Lost Vyper]

NO.ONE.TEST.PLAYS.THESE.

C´mon........

Today i saw what Invisibility does, when its cast in to a 10 man Terminator squad with a Librarian and a Grandmaster...

BATREP up tomorrow...

C´mon........

NO.ONE.TEST.PLAYS.THESE.

FAQ it up AND FAST!!!!! How the hell did it get past to the book? :confused:

- Lost Vyper

[40kGamer]

I'm likely to see it for the first time tomorrow so I'm anxious to see just how evil it can be!

... and I suspect you're correct and noone actually playtests things anymore. :(

[DarkLink]

It's basically the same as the whole 2+ reroll issue. It's not quite as powerful, but it still makes units like Terminators or Wraithknights virtually unkillable, and it's much more flexible than the various 2+ rerolls as you don't have to jump through loopholes to make it work. All you need is to roll invisibility, and that's it.

[Charon]

You can have it both. And in many cases it didnt take a loophole. Daemons for example made the 2++ reroll from their codex alone (even more safe now with malefic)

[DarkLink]

But you still had to cast Forwarning and also get the Grimnoire off, or do some similar combination of abilities, and you were relatively limited to getting the reroll only on certain units. Invisibility is much easier to cast than comboing abilities, and you can toss it on anything. Ergo, more flexible.

[The Herald of Corrosion]

NO.ONE.TEST.PLAYS.THESE.

C´mon........

Today i saw what Invisibility does, when its cast in to a 10 man Terminator squad with a Librarian and a Grandmaster...

BATREP up tomorrow...

C´mon........

NO.ONE.TEST.PLAYS.THESE.

FAQ it up AND FAST!!!!! How the hell did it get past to the book? :confused:

- Lost Vyper

You do know how to kill that, right? Take Codex Inquisition. Take a ton of Condemnor boltguns (Technically I think you can take 2 per inquisitor. And inquisitors are cheap). Even only hitting on 6's, eventually you'll hit. That's a perils roll per hit. Rinse. Repeat if necessary.

- - - Updated - - -


But you still had to cast Forwarning and also get the Grimnoire off, or do some similar combination of abilities, and you were relatively limited to getting the reroll only on certain units. Invisibility is much easier to cast than comboing abilities, and you can toss it on anything. Ergo, more flexible.
Um. About that. It's a limited chance to get it unless you spend a ton of points on warp charges to get off Invisibility that could be just as well spent elsewhere.

Plus it isn't like your Superheavy has to roll to hit to stomp them or tank shock, right?

[daboarder]

You do know how to kill that, right? Take Codex Inquisition. Take a ton of Condemnor boltguns (Technically I think you can take 2 per inquisitor. And inquisitors are cheap). Even only hitting on 6's, eventually you'll hit. That's a perils roll per hit. Rinse. Repeat if necessary.

- - - Updated - - -


Um. About that. It's a limited chance to get it unless you spend a ton of points on warp charges to get off Invisibility that could be just as well spent elsewhere.

Plus it isn't like your Superheavy has to roll to hit to stomp them or tank shock, right?

Condemnors have changed

[DarkLink]

Um. About that. It's a limited chance to get it unless you spend a ton of points on warp charges to get off Invisibility that could be just as well spent elsewhere.

Casting a WC2 power is not difficult. It really isn't. It is not easy for your opponent to reliably block it, either. Throw six dice at it, and you've got an 89% chance of passing the test, and your opponent needs to roll ~18 Deny dice to get in the ballpark of a 50% chance of blocking it. You only have a 1/4 chance of Perils, and Perils doesn't actually do anything half the time now anyways, so your actual odds of taking a wound are closer to 1/8, and most of the stuff that will be casting Invisibility will have 3 wounds so who cares about Perils? So I'm not sure what your point is.

[Krefey]

For me, I reckon Invis should only work in one phase. I.e. only snap shots and not also 6's to hit in combat. I think that would be a reasonable change. That or make it WC 3.

[Lexington]

"Invisibility may only be cast on a unit consisting entirely of infantry models. Successful to-hit rolls against a unit affected by Invisibility must be re-rolled."

There.

EDITED: To not use All The Words.

[daboarder]

"Invisibility may only be cast on a unit consisting entirely of infantry models. Any model or unit that makes a shooting attack against a unit affected by Invisibility must re-roll successful to-hit rolls."

There.

um yeah that stipulation makes no sense. its hardly broken in your variant when thrown on non infantry units

[Lexington]

It's not really a balance thing. I just think invisible Knights and Bloodthirsters are dumb. :p

[daboarder]

as opposed to invisible terminators?

Or invisible Hordes of gaunts?

[Caitsidhe]

So far I've seen (and used) invisible Knights, Daemon Princes, Helldrakes, Terminators, and various other Lords of War. It is straight up sick and the best evidence yet that the game designers do not play test at all... and that they are entirely asleep at the wheel.

[Lexington]

as opposed to invisible terminators?

Or invisible Hordes of gaunts?
Eh, sure. Seems to me that Knights (and other Super Heavy dealies) are so damn big and noisy, being invisible's not a huge advantage. Maybe just put the restriction on them? I dunno. Just so long as we have something that usefully tones down the current power.

[daboarder]

See I would have figured the same from say a swarm. But lets be honest, its not the biggest abstract in the game

[Path Walker]

Rerolling successful checks is a terrible mechanic when you already have things that reroll failures. You'd get stuck in a loop.

[Charon]

Rerolling successful checks is a terrible mechanic when you already have things that reroll failures. You'd get stuck in a loop.

You dont.

[Krefey]

Rerolling successful checks is a terrible mechanic when you already have things that reroll failures. You'd get stuck in a loop.

Apart from teh rule that states you can't re-roll a re-roll.

[Anggul]

I don't see why it has to exist at all. Shrouding already represents the psyker hiding things. Remove it entirely and come up with something else.

[Lost Vyper]

Go see it in action!

http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?47103-Iyanden-vs-Inquisition-GK-2500p-HD-VIDEO-BATREP

[Haighus]

Casting a WC2 power is not difficult. It really isn't. It is not easy for your opponent to reliably block it, either. Throw six dice at it, and you've got an 89% chance of passing the test, and your opponent needs to roll ~18 Deny dice to get in the ballpark of a 50% chance of blocking it. You only have a 1/4 chance of Perils, and Perils doesn't actually do anything half the time now anyways, so your actual odds of taking a wound are closer to 1/8, and most of the stuff that will be casting Invisibility will have 3 wounds so who cares about Perils? So I'm not sure what your point is.
I think the point was in terms of reliably rolling it at the beginning of the game in the first place.

[Caitsidhe]

What Invisibility SHOULD have been is a two Warp Charge version of Shrouding which CANNOT be ignored or altered by weapons which normally ignore cover. In addition, those shooting at or engage in close combat should all be considered to be BS and WS-1. This would allow for the Tau to still be able to improve their chances of hitting, but not ignore the cover saves. It would force most people to hit on a 5+ (and against crappy troops it might not make them any worse).

The biggest issues in the game (which clearly were not tested adequately) are the ability to Ignore Cover, Invisibility (as it currently stands) and the ability to easily abuse Invulnerability saves. All of these things are easily fixed. Don't hold your breath. *In addition, I think units capable of assault (like FMC) who use Jink should pay a penalty for having done so. The 6th Edition rule requiring them to roll three dice and lose the highest for assault if they Jinked would be a good counter balance.

[DarkLink]

I think the point was in terms of reliably rolling it at the beginning of the game in the first place.

There are plenty of armies that can effectively guarentee that they get any given power. Belakor in particular automatically gets it, Daemons, CSM, GKs, Eldar all can spam enough psykers to have solid odds, and there are some other sources like Tigirius who has like a 75% chance of getting it on his own. If you want to abuse invisibility, you can write a list that will reliably get it.

[Lord Krungharr]

If they let flamer and blast templates hit them, as nothing works against unseen models like indiscriminate area attacks (napalm anyone?), then I'd be okay with it. They probably should've left the WS1 in combat alone, as even the Predator was somewhat visible when cloaked, he just had a very high weapon skill and initiative.

At least there's potential to hit them with flamers and blasts if the invisible unit is not the target of the attack, though it's so random with blasts, and probably very limited on hits with the tiny bits of flamer that may stick out enough.

I threw 6 dice at invisibility twice in a game and both times failed to cast it with Belakor. 1 Perils wound too. It gets dangerous, unless you're Eldar with all the Ghost helms and Shards of Honduras or whatever it's called to reduce the cost of the power to WC1.

[rpricew]

I wish we could get invisible hordes of Gaunts... alas, it is not possible. :)

[Tynskel]

I wish we could get invisible hordes of Gaunts... alas, it is not possible. :)

Come the Apocalypse!

[DarkLink]

If they let flamer and blast templates hit them, as nothing works against unseen models like indiscriminate area attacks (napalm anyone?), then I'd be okay with it. They probably should've left the WS1 in combat alone, as even the Predator was somewhat visible when cloaked, he just had a very high weapon skill and initiative.

At least there's potential to hit them with flamers and blasts if the invisible unit is not the target of the attack, though it's so random with blasts, and probably very limited on hits with the tiny bits of flamer that may stick out enough.

I threw 6 dice at invisibility twice in a game and both times failed to cast it with Belakor. 1 Perils wound too. It gets dangerous, unless you're Eldar with all the Ghost helms and Shards of Honduras or whatever it's called to reduce the cost of the power to WC1.

How did you perils but not pass? Also, the odds of success on 6 dice are about equal to a ld 10 power last edition.

[Lost Vyper]

What Invisibility SHOULD have been is a two Warp Charge version of Shrouding which CANNOT be ignored or altered by weapons which normally ignore cover.

THIS! I would try to get this SO HARD! I applaud you sir! See GW, s*** aint so hard! :0

[gory_v]

I think it would be a bit more balanced if it simply had everyone shooting at BS1 rather than 'snap shots.' It would at least open up the option to target them directly with templates/blasts.

In regards to getting it off, if your psyker can't reroll its psychic tests, you have to commit a lot of WC dice in order to reliably cast it and if you perils, there's a 1/3 chance for it to bite you in the ***. If your psyker CAN reroll tests (Tiggy/spell familiar/etc) then you're committing less dice on the idea that get a redo if you fail the first time. If done this way, it's statically easier to deny with fewer warp charges manifested. It's happened to me surprisingly often, but that's bc my buddy and I have committed our lists to providing 14-18 WC base via henchmen squads in razorbacks from GK.

Yes, there are those such as Tau, Necrons, and DE that don't have access to psychic powers, but they make up for it in other ways that those who do have access to psychic powers can't. DE is probably worst off, but they still very much hold their own with the boost that 'jink' got in 7th ed, poison, and that dirty dirty beast pack. I'm sure they'll only improve further when their codex gets updated. You could argue that Orks also have a rough go against psychic armies, but they are able to field more models and beat more face than most.

To sum it up, Invis is broken, but it shouldn't be banned. It could be watered down, but then it becomes useless if you do it too much.

[Mr Mystery]

Stupid question is stupid, but I can't be arsed to nab my book.

Normally, you can't use template weapons to snap fire, so can't use them against Invisible units. Nice and clear there.

Does this prevent me using template weapon to overwatch against Invisible units?

[Caitsidhe]

Stupid question is stupid, but I can't be arsed to nab my book.

Normally, you can't use template weapons to snap fire, so can't use them against Invisible units. Nice and clear there.

Does this prevent me using template weapon to overwatch against Invisible units?

No because Template weapons have a special rule which allows them to Overwatch differently. They don't roll to hit. They do a D3 automatic hits. :D

[Mr Mystery]

More or less what I thought :)

Got it into my head that although templates can overwatch, Invisible would make it a super-snap-fire type thing.

Cheers dude.

[Lord Krungharr]

How did you perils but not pass? Also, the odds of success on 6 dice are about equal to a ld 10 power last edition.

I passed the 3rd time with the Perils.

Doesn't matter what the current odds = in terms of LD, now it means more odds of taking Perils :(

[DarkLink]

You were lamenting the unreliability of casting powers. I pointed out that the odds are the same as last edition in this case. Perils is also more likely, sure, but half the time Perils doesn't do anything, so your odds aren't actually that much worse than last edition.

[John Bower]

Hmm, thanks for a cracking weeze; I'll remember the invisibility next time I go against my mates Eldar, hehe, Take a GK detachment with a Vindicare and cast Invisibility on him (here's hoping I can roll it up) then let's see him single shot the dude in cover like he did last time I used one.

[Mr Mystery]

Hmm, thanks for a cracking weeze; I'll remember the invisibility next time I go against my mates Eldar, hehe, Take a GK detachment with a Vindicare and cast Invisibility on him (here's hoping I can roll it up) then let's see him single shot the dude in cover like he did last time I used one.

Dude, never tempt the Dice Gods!

[John Bower]

I don't need to, they hate me anyway... lol

[40kGamer]

Used an 18 WC Eldar army over the weekend with summoning and invisibility. As far as invisibility goes, 4 x Spiritseers all rolling on telepathy let me get it every game, once multiple times. All I can say is that it is an amazing ability. It let 6 warlocks, a Spiritseer and an Archon grind down a unit of 6 Centaurians with Calgar, Tigurius, Coteaz and an Inquisitor over a few assault phases. Of course the Archon did all of the heavy lifting! Nothing like an invisible whirlwind of death with a huskblade and a shadowfield... :)

Still, with the crazy formations, death stars and ridiculous combos I played over the course of the day, I'd say invisibility is a small drop in a very big pond of things for people to abuse...

[Hettar]

I thought invisibility worked out quite when facing 4 knights, allowed my Eldar army a chance to destroy them with out worrying at all, Fight cheese with cheese because that's how cheesehammer 40k goes down!

[Caitsidhe]

I thought invisibility worked out quite when facing 4 knights, allowed my Eldar army a chance to destroy them with out worrying at all, Fight cheese with cheese because that's how cheesehammer 40k goes down!

You must have been quick on your feet. Invisibility doesn't help at all against Stomps and with four Knights on the table it would have been impossible to avoid being assaulted. How did you pull it off?