Number of powers a psyker can cast

[Krefey]

OK, so we had a discussion on another forum I frequent about the number of powers a psyker can attempt to manifest per turn.

I will use a Mastery Level 1 psyker as my main reference.

One side was saying that the inital part of teh rules that says "A pskyer can cast a number of powers determined by his mastery level" to mean that a psyker could not cast more than their mastery level (i.e. a ML 1 psyker can only attempt one power a turn).

The toehr side argued that the section under "Manifesting a psychic power" where it states you can continue to attempt to cast a power so long as you have enough warp charge points left indicated that a ML 1 psyker could actually attempt to manifest more than one power a turn.

What says BoLS?

[David Crossley]

BoLS will probably have people arguing both as well, tbh. It's worth noting that the second argument, where a Psyker can cast until the player runs out of powers or warp charge, allows Ahriman to potentially cast a total of 15 witch fire powers a turn, thanks to the black staff rules, which doesn't exactly sound like something GW would intend.

[daboarder]

OK, so we had a discussion on another forum I frequent about the number of powers a psyker can attempt to manifest per turn.

I will use a Mastery Level 1 psyker as my main reference.

One side was saying that the inital part of teh rules that says "A pskyer can cast a number of powers determined by his mastery level" to mean that a psyker could not cast more than their mastery level (i.e. a ML 1 psyker can only attempt one power a turn).

The toehr side argued that the section under "Manifesting a psychic power" where it states you can continue to attempt to cast a power so long as you have enough warp charge points left indicated that a ML 1 psyker could actually attempt to manifest more than one power a turn.

What says BoLS?

You can attempt to cast each power once.

The number of powers you have is determined by your mastery level.

The exception to the rule is ahriman, with his potential for 5 witchfires he can cast each one 3 times plus his force weapon

[Mr Mystery]

What DB said.

So even with infinite dice available to him, your bog standard ML1 only has a single power he can attempt to cast.

And attempt is key word. Succeed or Fail, you can only attempt to manifest each power for each psyker once, outside of any given unique rules.

[40kGamer]

What DB said.

So even with infinite dice available to him, your bog standard ML1 only has a single power he can attempt to cast.

And attempt is key word. Succeed or Fail, you can only attempt to manifest each power for each psyker once, outside of any given unique rules.

Actually all ML1 Psykers have 2 guaranteed powers now - Primaris + roll.

[daboarder]

Actually all ML1 Psykers have 2 guaranteed powers now - Primaris + roll.

3 if they also have a force weapon.

however the total powers they know still is dependent upon the mastery level. they cannot know 4 powers.

The dependence isn't the linear 1 to 1 that most people assume (you know what they say about assumptions) and the rules never state it is, but there is a dependence there.

[40kGamer]

3 if they also have a force weapon.

however the total powers they know still is dependent upon the mastery level. they cannot know 4 powers.

The dependence isn't the linear 1 to 1 that most people assume (you know what they say about assumptions) and the rules never state it is, but there is a dependence there.

Interesting, so an ML 1 Psyker can know 2-3 but can only manifest 1 each turn? So far I've never used more than 1 per turn as the main roll for the ML1 Psykers in my list is to be cheerleaders. :)

[marful]

Interesting, so an ML 1 Psyker can know 2-3 but can only manifest 1 each turn? So far I've never used more than 1 per turn as the main roll for the ML1 Psykers in my list is to be cheerleaders. :)

I'm going to quote Daboarder in case it was missed it the first time around:


You can attempt to cast each power once.

The number of powers you have is determined by your mastery level.

The exception to the rule is ahriman, with his potential for 5 witchfires he can cast each one 3 times plus his force weapon
A Mastery Level 1 Psyker has 3 Powers:

1.) One Randomly Generated power
2.) One Primaris power granted by the Psychic Focus Rule (provided all the powers Randomly Generated by the Psyker are from the same category)
3.) One Force Charge power (granted by the Force Weapon, does not conflict with Psychic Focus)

Thus, if you can cast "each" of your psychic powers once per turn, and a ML 1 Psyker has 3 powers, it could cast each of them once, for a total of 3 per turn.

[40kGamer]

Thanks mate! I actually did mentally skip over that important point the first time around! Caffeine hasn't kicked in just yet I guess. :)

Good to know that you can max out whatever powers you have regardless of your level. I can see this being really important for Grey Knights!

[Lord Krungharr]

In case anyone forgot, the psyker can also target all different units with his/her witchfires. So Fateweaver is a mighty psychic gunship now, as he knows all the Change powers. Give him Endurance from someone else and there's a good chance he can survive all those Perils wounds too :)

[John Bower]

this is why I think it is still directly affected not this abstract idea people seem to have latched onto. And may I add some of them are the same folks saying the psychic phase is OP now. Of course it is if you let a ML1 psyker start lobbing 3 powers a turn around. They never could before so what makes you think that a slight change in wording makes it any different. Remember that in 6th a psyker "Was always assumed to know the primaris power" - Not sure that is the exact wording but is certainly the gist of it. It's no different now; except for some reason people think that because you know a power means you can lob it around at will. His ML is meant to be the limiting factor; a choice not a given. You can cast for example: Divination or Force. I doubt the intent was to cast both if you are only Level 1; Mastery level really only came in with 6th ed, and even then a level 1 psyker could only lob off 1 power (more limited than now as it had to be a single warp charge power. The difference now is that yes you can pool your dice but that is intended as a way to put impetus into the castings. Do you take a risk to cast that WC 3 spell? You could perils if you use too many dice. I don't think GW intended for a ML 1 psyker to be as powerful as a level 2 psyker; it would make no sense. A level 1 psyker is guaranteed 3 powers. A level 2 psyker conversely is guaranteed to know 3 powers; so why pay the extra points then if you can use all 3 with either? What reason to pay 25/35 extra points for him when the ML1 guy can do the same stuff but cheaper?

[marful]

Remember that in 6th a psyker "Was always assumed to know the primaris power" - Not sure that is the exact wording but is certainly the gist of it.
This was never the case in 6th edition. The only way to gain the Primaris Power was to swap one of your Randomly Generated powers for it.


What reason to pay 25/35 extra points for him when the ML1 guy can do the same stuff but cheaper?This is a simple answer: More chances to get the power you want from the discipline.

How many points is Invisibility worth to you?


P.S. Holy wall of text batman!

[DarkLink]

"A pskyer can cast a number of powers determined by his mastery level"

End of story. This is quite explicit. The other quote, about continuing to cast psychic powers, refers to the fact that you might have other psykers. It does not give you permission to cast more powers than you have mastery levels.

[daboarder]

End of story. This is quite explicit. The other quote, about continuing to cast psychic powers, refers to the fact that you might have other psykers. It does not give you permission to cast more powers than you have mastery levels.

Not really, it is determined by his mastery level. sure, but only because his mastery level governs the number of powers he knows. nowhere to the rules specifically state that the relationship between powers and ML is a 1 to 1 relationship.

Ahriman can cast 15 powers a turn if he has the right witchfires, because he can attempt to manifest each power up to 3 times. the number of powers he knows is dependent on his mastery level (and hence satisfies that part of the rules) assuming that the dependence means is limited too is wrong.(And is nowhere in the rules)


similarly a ML1 psyker can attempt to manifest 2 powers, as he has 2 powers. His mastery level still determines how many powers he can manifest, its just not that 1 to 1 relationship.

[DarkLink]

Then where did the quote I referenced come from (I actually looked and couldn't find it after a brief look, if it's not in there then I guess cast away).

[Aegwymourn]

The quote is right under the "Mastery Levels" header after the designer's note.

"The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level." Page thee of the psychic phase with Mobi file. Seems pretty clear to me. Our group has been playing it this way.

[daboarder]

Then where did the quote I referenced come from (I actually looked and couldn't find it after a brief look, if it's not in there then I guess cast away).
Your missing my point. I'll try with a simple example.

Take the statement

a = 2b

It is correct to state that a is dependent on b
It is incorrect to state that a is equal to b

The rules only ever state that the number of powers (a) is dependent on your level (b)

The relationship is later gathered from the rule stating you may attempt each power once. Because the number of powers you know is limited by the ML it is correct to state that the number of powers you may cast is dependent on your ML, but incorrect to state that it is equal to you ML.

In a sense the relationship is like this

a = b +1(if focus) +1(if Force)

Ergo, a is dependent but not equal to b

[marful]

Your missing my point. I'll try with a simple example.

Take the statement

a = 2b

It is correct to state that a is dependent on b
It is incorrect to state that a is equal to b

The rules only ever state that the number of powers (a) is dependent on your level (b)

The relationship is later gathered from the rule stating you may attempt each power once. Because the number of powers you know is limited by the ML it is correct to state that the number of powers you may cast is dependent on your ML, but incorrect to state that it is equal to you ML.

In a sense the relationship is like this

a = b +1(if focus) +1(if Force)

Ergo, a is dependent but not equal to b
Exactly.

Further, in the examples side notes, it mentions specifically a model casting psychic powers repeatedly until the following two conditions:

1.) It has attempted to manifest each one once
2.) It has Warp Charge Points to continue.

[DarkLink]

Your missing my point. I'll try with a simple example.

Simply clarifying that the relationship is based on the number of powers the psyker knows is sufficient. That was where my misunderstanding was.

[daboarder]

Simply clarifying that the relationship is based on the number of powers the psyker knows is sufficient. That was where my misunderstanding was.

sweet all good, honestly was happy for the excuse to put up that simplified example anyway. prevents other issues in the future and is hopefully very clear.

[DarkLink]

Hah, totally understand.

Actually, this combined with another question someone asked on the Frontline Gaming forums leads to some further confusion. The rules now refer to "Psykers" as a "Psyker Unit", which some people are interpreting as meaning that attaching multiple Psykers into one unit (e.g. the Seer Council) can only cast one power for that overall unit. Reasonable. Well, apparently AbusePuppy or someone wrote an article somewhere arguing that this extends to which powers the "Psyker Unit" knows (the individual psyker units merge together into one psyker unit). Which is a reasonably logical extension of said limit. But, then, if you're merging separate psyker units into one psyker unit, then wouldn't that also apply to their Warp Charges? So you have a unit like the Seer Council that's simultaneous ML1 and ML3? So it only generates 4 Warp Charges instead of ~16 because it's one unit rather than muliple? And despite only generating 4 Warp Charges (plus D6), it would be able to pool powers together (7 Runes of Battle, plus 3 plus Primaris per Farseer from Runes of Fate, Divination, or Telepathy, for up to 15 different psychic powers total) and have one single model within that unit cast all 15 powers until you ran out of Warp Charges? WTF? There are multiple ambiguous rules stacked on top of each other leading to several different possible conclusions, which are generally mutually exclusive.


I think the psychic phase might just have a few issues.

[daboarder]

Hah, totally understand.

Actually, this combined with another question someone asked on the Frontline Gaming forums leads to some further confusion. The rules now refer to "Psykers" as a "Psyker Unit", which some people are interpreting as meaning that attaching multiple Psykers into one unit (e.g. the Seer Council) can only cast one power for that overall unit. Reasonable. Well, apparently AbusePuppy or someone wrote an article somewhere arguing that this extends to which powers the "Psyker Unit" knows (the individual psyker units merge together into one psyker unit). Which is a reasonably logical extension of said limit. But, then, if you're merging separate psyker units into one psyker unit, then wouldn't that also apply to their Warp Charges? So you have a unit like the Seer Council that's simultaneous ML1 and ML3? So it only generates 4 Warp Charges instead of ~16 because it's one unit rather than muliple? And despite only generating 4 Warp Charges (plus D6), it would be able to pool powers together (7 Runes of Battle, plus 3 plus Primaris per Farseer from Runes of Fate, Divination, or Telepathy, for up to 15 different psychic powers total) and have one single model within that unit cast all 15 powers until you ran out of Warp Charges? WTF? There are multiple ambiguous rules stacked on top of each other leading to several different possible conclusions, which are generally mutually exclusive.


I think the psychic phase might just have a few issues.

That mate, is an understatement.

[gory_v]

Yes and no to the OP. A psyker is limited by his mastery level by how many powers he knows and not how many he can try to manifest ea turn. If it were the latter, it would be expressly written out.

As far as the discussion regarding powers cast by a unit and being able to try for a power more than once, they do a poor job of distinguishing between a psychic unit and a unit for all other game purposes when they write that rule. You can pour over the entire psychic phase section and clearly see that their intent from the start of defining at 'psyker unit' that it refers to each psyker getting to cast a power once per turn as it was in previous editions. The fact that psyker is not found in use unit type section and the wording throughout the Perils Table are just a few examples of their intent.

Unfortunately, we're kind of stuck until these things are clarified by GW themselves and will have to rely on FAQs from TOs from event to event. If you plan on playing in a tourney, just be sure to clear up any questions with a TO/rules judge before the event so you know what to expect.

[John Bower]

I still think people are using abstraction to make the PP too OP, the mastery level dictates how many powers you can generate so ML1 you are allowed a single power; 1, the other is a bonus; it's not meant to be thrown in there as one of his/her generated powers it's a bonus. So a Level 2 gets 2 powers and can therefore cast 2 each turn. Again choosing from 2 disciplines you would only have 2 correct? So why when you decide to go for a single discipline should you get not only the advantage of a bonus power but a bonus casting of being ML3 all of a sudden?

Where I said that in 6th they were assumed to all know the primaris is still correct; they were it was stated that was why you could 'always' swap your power for that one. It actually said that in the BRB. If you want I'll get it out and quote it verbatim if needs be. But your powers are indeed determined by Mastery Level directly, as is your casting ability; I don't think in any way the intent was to make every psyker a level above what they were before. Just to give them greater choice of how to use their powers and Charge points.

I really honestly think if you played the psychic phase the way I do by that rule you would find it's not so OP as you think. Sure some powers are a bit crazy but hey, that's life in M41; live with it or die trying. Pyskers are the be all and end all; they can kill you; they can hide units. It's power beyond what we understand. Counter it, if you don't like invisibilty ban it. I use it, I have it used against me; it can be nasty but it doesn't always go off. Like any psychic power it's not guaranteed and can be just as lethal to the psyker.

Footnote here: I roll more 6's in the psychic phase alone than any other time in a dratted game of 40k. Just when 6's are 'not' what I want.

[DarkLink]

I still think people are using abstraction to make the PP too OP, the mastery level dictates how many powers you can generate so ML1 you are allowed a single power; 1, the other is a bonus; it's not meant to be thrown in there as one of his/her generated powers it's a bonus. So a Level 2 gets 2 powers and can therefore cast 2 each turn. Again choosing from 2 disciplines you would only have 2 correct? So why when you decide to go for a single discipline should you get not only the advantage of a bonus power but a bonus casting of being ML3 all of a sudden?

Where I said that in 6th they were assumed to all know the primaris is still correct; they were it was stated that was why you could 'always' swap your power for that one. It actually said that in the BRB. If you want I'll get it out and quote it verbatim if needs be. But your powers are indeed determined by Mastery Level directly, as is your casting ability; I don't think in any way the intent was to make every psyker a level above what they were before. Just to give them greater choice of how to use their powers and Charge points.

You're using an abstraction. Basically everything in your argument is pure conjecture. Nowhere does it refer to the extra powers as any sort of "bonus", nor does it ever state that you are limited to casting only the number of powers the psyker "generates". You can't just make up rules completely arbitrarily. I also have no clue why you're referencing 6th edition rules, they're utterly irrelevant seeing as we're playing 7th now. We play with the rules that are actually physically written in the 7th ed rulebook, not with the ones you assume existed at some point in 6th and that we should still follow for some reason.

[Mr Mystery]

I had quite forgotten about the Primaris Power for focus - you can tell I use Necrons!

So yes, a Mastery Level 1 psyker will have at least 2 powers - the rolled one, and the Primaris from Psychic Focus. Third can be obtained through a Force Weapon, which most Psykers carry these days (but not all, IIRC).

As long as he has Warp Charge dice, he can attempt to use each of these powers once per turn.

[marful]

Where I said that in 6th they were assumed to all know the primaris is still correct; they were it was stated that was why you could 'always' swap your power for that one. It actually said that in the BRB. If you want I'll get it out and quote it verbatim if needs be.
You are using equivocation to simultaneously define "Knowing" as having access to the power and "Knowing" as having generated the power for use in a game.

These are two completely different things, the former of which is irrelevant and has no actual bearing on game play mechanics and is, in fact, your interpretation of fluff based upon an abstract reading of a rule for the latter (game play mechanic.)

The latter ability to swap a randomly generated power for a primaris power does not, in game terms, mean that such a Psyker "always knows" said primaris power from a game play perspective. Only when that Psyker actually swaps a randomly generated power for the primaris power does it actually "know" said primaris power.

But all of this too is irrelevant. Because this is 7th Edition. Not 6th Edition.


To quote the 7th Edition rulebook, page 24, under "Manifesting Psychic Powers":

If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit, or select another of your Psyker units and attempt to manifest a power the new unit knows. Assuming you have enough Warp Charge points, you can alternate back and forth between the same Psyker units in this way, but no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per Psychic phase.The emphasis (bold text) was not added by me, and is actually that way in the text.

Further, on the following page under "Select Psyker and Psychic Power" it says:

To manifest a psychic power, you will first need to select one of your Psyker units. It does not matter if the selected unit is Falling Back of has Gone to Ground. Then, select a psychic power known to the selected unit that the unit has not already attempted to manifest this Psychic phase.Again the emphasis is not added by me.


Clearly from these two paragraphs, under Manifesting Psychic Powers, the rules describe a situation where the limiting factors when a unit can not attempt to cast a Psychic Powers are as follows:

1.) The player runs out of Warp Charges
2.) The unit is attempting to cast a Psychic Power it has already attempted to cast this Psychic Phase
3.) The unit has attempted to cast all of it's known Psychic Powers

If the assumption is that the maximum number of Psychic Powers a Psyker can attempt to manifest IS EQUAL TO their mastery level, at the very least, these two paragraphs of rules are suddenly invalidated as they describe a sequence of events that are in direct contradiction to this assumption.

[John Bower]

No they aren't; don't be daft. You have psykers of all different levels; some of those can cast stupid amounts of powers (Daemon lords anyone? ML4?) this just prevents players dropping powers they've already used that turn with that psyker and has no bearing on how many they can cast. 'The number of powers a psyker can cast is determined by his mastery level', end of, one statement to rule them all. And may I add in a different section to that; the bit you're quoting is from 'manifesting psychic powers' whereas this is the overall rule for psykers generally. Otherwise as I say you can have level 1 psykers dropping 3 powers a turn; that really makes sense to you? It runs in the face of all previous editions and I really don't think its RAI, or for that matter RAW. It's people like you running it that way that are making the psychic phase so OP and then moaning because you're suddenly faced with a daemonic apocalypse army instead of the 1750 your opponent was supposed to have. I'll agree on this, I do think WC should be higher for all powers so the dice are used up much more quickly, that would curb some of the shenanigans that goes on, summoning daemons should be WC5 at least; that would shut that little loophole down; and invisibility should be WC3.

[daboarder]

No they aren't; don't be daft. You have psykers of all different levels; some of those can cast stupid amounts of powers (Daemon lords anyone? ML4?) this just prevents players dropping powers they've already used that turn with that psyker and has no bearing on how many they can cast. 'The number of powers a psyker can cast is determined by his mastery level', end of, one statement to rule them all. And may I add in a different section to that; the bit you're quoting is from 'manifesting psychic powers' whereas this is the overall rule for psykers generally. Otherwise as I say you can have level 1 psykers dropping 3 powers a turn; that really makes sense to you? It runs in the face of all previous editions and I really don't think its RAI, or for that matter RAW. It's people like you running it that way that are making the psychic phase so OP and then moaning because you're suddenly faced with a daemonic apocalypse army instead of the 1750 your opponent was supposed to have. I'll agree on this, I do think WC should be higher for all powers so the dice are used up much more quickly, that would curb some of the shenanigans that goes on, summoning daemons should be WC5 at least; that would shut that little loophole down; and invisibility should be WC3.

read the rules.

Please quote a single rule in the book which limits your psyker to casting a number of power equal to their mastery level

[John Bower]

The bloody first paragraph; 'the number of powers a psyker can cast is determined by his mastery level'. What on Earth isn't clear about that? It's as it always was; 'determined by his mastery level'.


And further re-iterated by the fact that 'he generates a number of powers equal to his mastery level'

1+1 = 2 not bloody 5 as so many of you seem to be assuming from a later rule that is there to clarify how to use the powers; nothing to do with how many you can use.

[Irrelevant - mod. ]

Nothing abstract here.

[daboarder]

The bloody first paragraph; 'the number of powers a psyker can cast is determined by his mastery level'. What on Earth isn't clear about that? It's as it always was; 'determined by his mastery level'.


And further re-iterated by the fact that 'he generates a number of powers equal to his mastery level'

1+1 = 2 not bloody 5 as so many of you seem to be assuming from a later rule that is there to clarify how to use the powers; nothing to do with how many you can use.

[Irrelevant]

Nothing abstract here.

You do know you are making an inherent logic fail by assuming that the dependance means that they MUST be equal to right?
You're the only one here making any assumptions.

Here is the actual rule (because you didn't quote it, you just listed a mangled interpretation thereof)

The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level.


Take the statement

a = 2b

It is correct to state that a is depends on b
It is incorrect to state that a is equal to b

The rules only ever state that the number of powers (a) is depends on your level (b)

The relationship is later gathered from the rule stating you may attempt each power once. Because the number of powers you know is limited by the ML it is correct to state that the number of powers you may cast is depends on your ML, but incorrect to state that it is equal to you ML.

In a sense the relationship is like this

a = b +1(if focus) +1(if Force)

Ergo, a is dependent on, but not equal to b

Please, find the logic flaw.
Here's a hint, the above is the only way to interpret the rules without making assumptions, and you know what they say about assumptions

[marful]

And further re-iterated by the fact that 'he generates a number of powers equal to his mastery level'
That is true. A Psyker does in fact Randomly Generate a number of Psychic Powers equal to his Mastery Level. However this is not the totality of the Psychic Powers a Psyker can know.

A Psyker can get access to Psychic Powers from four sources in the basic rule book.

1.) Master Level Randomly Generated Powers
2.) Psychic Focus Primaris Power
3.) Chaos Psychic Focus Primaris Power
4.) Possession of a Force Weapon Force Charge Power

Some other items can also grant additional Psychic Powers, such as the Last Memory of Yuranthos (Codex: Black Legion) which increases the Psykers Mastery Level by 1, and grants them an additional Psychic Power.



You do know you are making an inherent logic fail by assuming that the dependance means that they MUST be equal to right?
Your the only one here making any assumptions, the situation is easily resolved by using just a little intelligence.

Please, find the logic flaw.
Here's a hint, the above is the only way to interpret the rules without making assumptions, and you know what they say about assumptions
Additionally, if we hold the assumption that Mastery Level = Number of Psychic powers you can cast, the rules I quoted become contradictory as they describe a situation that conflicts with this interpretation.

However, if we hold to the position that Mastery Level determines the number of powers, and the number of powers known are the limiting factor, this conforms with the two other paragraphs of rules...

[DarkLink]

Nothing abstract here.

It never explicitly explains how you "determine" the number of powers you can cast. It never once says "a psyker can case one power per mastery level". You are making that rule up. It only states that they generate X powers based on their mastery level, and because the number of powers you can know is your mastery level plus primaris plus force (in most cases, anyways), then you determine the number of powers you cast by the number of powers you know, which is determined by your mastery level. Nothing about quoting the definition of "determine" contradicts that.

You say you are willing to quote rules to support your argument. Do so. Not made up rules, or "this is how I think it should be" rules, but actual word-for-word rules straight from the 7th edition rulebook (not the 6th edition rulebook, the 7th edition rulebook). I'm more than willing to change my interpretation if you bring up some rule that got missed. You just have to actually quote that rule.

[This Dave]

I probably missed this earlier in the thread but page 389 of the iBooks rulebook states under "Mastery Levels":

“Mastery Levels
The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level. ”

So doesn't that mean that a Psyker may know more spells than his Level but can only use a number each turn equal to his level no matter how many dice you can roll?

[daboarder]

I probably missed this earlier in the thread but page 389 of the iBooks rulebook states under "Mastery Levels":

“Mastery Levels
The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level. ”

So doesn't that mean that a Psyker may know more spells than his Level but can only use a number each turn equal to his level no matter how many dice you can roll?

no, you have missed it we discussed it earlier. all that means is that somehow, somewhere else in the rules, your mastery level has SOME affect on the number of powers you can cast. It does of course as your mastery level determines how many powers you have. therefore the number you can cast depends on how many you have, which depends on your ML

Read my post with the bolded text above.

[John Bower]

You do know you are making an inherent logic fail by assuming that the dependance means that they MUST be equal to right?
Your the only one here making any assumptions, the situation is easily resolved by using just a little intelligence.

Here is the actual rule (because you didn't quote it, you just listed a mangled interpretation thereof)

Please, find the logic flaw.
Here's a hint, the above is the only way to interpret the rules without making assumptions, and you know what they say about assumptions

[Removed] So tell you what... I'll play my way and the way my friends play it; you play yours and we'll see who's right if the FAQ hits.

[DarkLink]

[Removed] It is possible to be wrong without being stupid. Again, if you are willing to actually present an argument backed up by the rules, you can absolutely change our minds. But taking it personally and refusing to respond in a rational, mature manner isn't going to convince anyone.

[Mr Mystery]

Psykers roll for a number of powers equal to their Mastery Level, and from the disciplines open to them.

If they generate all their powers from a single discipline, Psychic Focus grants them the Primaris of that discipline.

Therefore, all ML1 psykers inherently have Psychic Focus, and thus the Primaris in addition to their rolled for power.

Wielding a Force Weapon opens up that third power.

It's pretty straight forward, surely?

[DarkLink]

That part is. The confusion is over the relationship between ML and the number of powers a psyker can cast.

The quote "The number of psychic powers a Psyker can use each turn depends on his Mastery Level" indicates that there is a relationship, but does not state what that relationship is. Said relationship is not mentioned directly anywhere else.

There is, however, a clear total cap on the number of powers a psyker can cast: that is, they may not repeat a power. Since they only know so many powers (ML+Psychic Focus+Force, if they have Psychic Focus and Force), and can only cast each one once, that is a cap on how many powers a psyker can cast.

This satisfies the requirement that there be a relationship between Mastery Level and the number of powers a psyker can cast.

Since no one has been able to find any other rules dictating how many powers a psyker can cast, by process of elimination a psyker may cast each power it knows once, assuming it has warp charge dice.

[Mr Mystery]

That's my understanding too.

Will grab my rulebook, as I'm 90% sure this was clearly stated in there somewhere. And I have a knack for finding that sort of rule.


Manifesting Psychic Powers

The most common psychic action is the manifestation of pyschic powers. Only the player whose turn it is can attempt to manifest psychic powers. If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest as psychic power with the same unit, or select another of your Psyker units and attempt to manifest a power the new unist knows. Assuming you have enough Warp Charge points, you can alternate back and forth between the same Psyker units in this way, but no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per Psychic phase.

So, going on that, as long as you have Warp Charge tokens to use up, each Psyker can cast, or attempt to cast, each of it's powers once :)

Dunno where John Bower is coming from.

[This Dave]

no, you have missed it we discussed it earlier. all that means is that somehow, somewhere else in the rules, your mastery level has SOME affect on the number of powers you can cast. It does of course as your mastery level determines how many powers you have. therefore the number you can cast depends on how many you have, which depends on your ML

Read my post with the bolded text above.

So a ML 1 Psyker can have between 1-3 powers depending on things other than ML. So ML only matters for the number of random powers a Psyker can have rather than the total number of powers they can have. So despite it saying it does the ML has nothing at all to do with the number of powers a Psyker can use a turn. That seems to be the argument?

[DarkLink]

No, actually. Mastery Level is the primary determinate of how many powers the psyker can cast. That does not require that Y=X. It's basic algebra. If Y is the number of powers you can cast, and X is your mastery level, then Y=X+1*+1**. Y is determined/dependent upon X.

*If you have a power from psychic focus.

**If you have a power from force weapons.

[Mr Mystery]

Yup.

Rules for Psychic Focus even expressly state that ML1 will automatically have Psychic Focus, and thus the bonus power.

In short, there's a difference between the number of powers you can actively generate, and the number of powers you can have.

[Krefey]

Yup.

Rules for Psychic Focus even expressly state that ML1 will automatically have Psychic Focus, and thus the bonus power.

In short, there's a difference between the number of powers you can actively generate, and the number of powers you can have.


The issue is that while you are able to know more than one psychic power, it doesn't necessarily mean you are allowed to cast more than one power a turn either. (for the record, I was on the multiple powers a turn side for the discussion on the other forum).

The wording for the number of powers you can cast being dependent on your mastery level is *exactly* the same as it was in 6th edition. Yet in 6th you were limited to one power per turn per mastery level.

[DWest]

The wording for the number of powers you can cast being dependent on your mastery level is *exactly* the same as it was in 6th edition. Yet in 6th you were limited to one power per turn per mastery level.
In both 6th and 7th, the Mastery Levels you have determines the amount of Warp Charge you have; in that regard, the number of spells you can cast is dependent on your Mastery Level, but it's not a strict 1-to-1 limit.

[marful]

The issue is that while you are able to know more than one psychic power, it doesn't necessarily mean you are allowed to cast more than one power a turn either. (for the record, I was on the multiple powers a turn side for the discussion on the other forum).

The wording for the number of powers you can cast being dependent on your mastery level is *exactly* the same as it was in 6th edition. Yet in 6th you were limited to one power per turn per mastery level.
Please do your self a favor and re-read the rest of the rules in 6th edition.

I'm going to quote myself because it seems people aren't reading what was posted earlier:


...But all of this too is irrelevant. Because this is 7th Edition. Not 6th Edition.

To quote the 7th Edition rulebook, page 24, under "Manifesting Psychic Powers":

If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another psychic power with the same unit, or select another of your Psyker units and attempt to manifest a power the new unit knows. Assuming you have enough Warp Charge points, you can alternate back and forth between the same Psyker units in this way, but no unit can attempt to manifest the same psychic power more than once per Psychic phase.The emphasis (bold text) was not added by me, and is actually that way in the text.

Further, on the following page under "Select Psyker and Psychic Power" it says:

To manifest a psychic power, you will first need to select one of your Psyker units. It does not matter if the selected unit is Falling Back of has Gone to Ground. Then, select a psychic power known to the selected unit that the unit has not already attempted to manifest this Psychic phase.Again the emphasis is not added by me.


Clearly from these two paragraphs, under Manifesting Psychic Powers, the rules describe a situation where the limiting factors when a unit can not attempt to cast a Psychic Powers are as follows:

1.) The player runs out of Warp Charges
2.) The unit is attempting to cast a Psychic Power it has already attempted to cast this Psychic Phase
3.) The unit has attempted to cast all of it's known Psychic Powers

If the assumption is that the maximum number of Psychic Powers a Psyker can attempt to manifest IS EQUAL TO their mastery level, at the very least, these two paragraphs of rules are suddenly invalidated as they describe a sequence of events that are in direct contradiction to this assumption.
Incidentally, the limitations for how many powers can be cast is almost identical between 6th and 7th edition, despite the total change up of the Psychic Phase itself. The only difference being that in 6th Edition there was no Psychic Focus, Chaos Psychic Focus, or Force Charge Power granted via Force Weapons.

Because in 6th Edition you knew a single power per Mastery Level, and this was the only way to get powers it may seem that Maximum Powers You can Cast = ML Level, but this was never actually the case.

[DarkLink]

The issue is that while you are able to know more than one psychic power, it doesn't necessarily mean you are allowed to cast more than one power a turn either. (for the record, I was on the multiple powers a turn side for the discussion on the other forum).

As has been mentioned about a dozen times now, it doesn't mean that you're not allowed to cast powers. It states that there is some sort of restriction, but the only restriction that is actually listed in the rules is that you can't repeat powers and each psyker knows a limited number of powers. Since there are no more restrictions explained, process of elimination renders that the only viable restriction we have to follow.



The wording for the number of powers you can cast being dependent on your mastery level is *exactly* the same as it was in 6th edition. Yet in 6th you were limited to one power per turn per mastery level.

Not quite. In 6th, it capped the number of powers you could cast because each psyker only had access to their own warp charges. Now, you can pool them, so that restriction changes because the context of the rules are different as each psyker has access to more warp charges than they themselves generate. GW likely didn't think this through, hence the confusing and complicated non-explicit wording in these rules.

[Krefey]

As has been mentioned about a dozen times now, it doesn't mean that you're not allowed to cast powers. It states that there is some sort of restriction, but the only restriction that is actually listed in the rules is that you can't repeat powers and each psyker knows a limited number of powers. Since there are no more restrictions explained, process of elimination renders that the only viable restriction we have to follow.



Not quite. In 6th, it capped the number of powers you could cast because each psyker only had access to their own warp charges. Now, you can pool them, so that restriction changes because the context of the rules are different as each psyker has access to more warp charges than they themselves generate. GW likely didn't think this through, hence the confusing and complicated non-explicit wording in these rules.

While you can pool warp charges, that doesn't actually affect a rule that stipulates the number of powers that can be cast per turn. Just because I have 8 warp charge points available for a psyker to cast powers, if I'm only allowed to cast one power anyway, the excess warp charge points are wasted. The extra warp charge points gives me the ability to throw more dice at a power in ropder to try and get it successfully cast rather than give me the opportunity to cast multiple powers. (Sorry, I am just providing coutner points for discussion purposes, not trying to be deliberately annoying as personally I think being able to cast multiple powers is how it was intended).


Incidentally, the limitations for how many powers can be cast is almost identical between 6th and 7th edition, despite the total change up of the Psychic Phase itself. The only difference being that in 6th Edition there was no Psychic Focus, Chaos Psychic Focus, or Force Charge Power granted via Force Weapons.

Because in 6th Edition you knew a single power per Mastery Level, and this was the only way to get powers it may seem that Maximum Powers You can Cast = ML Level, but this was never actually the case.

There were several units in 6th that had access to multiple psychic powers that could still only cast one a turn. Grey Knights in particular or any psyker with a force weapon (you may want to confirm that, but using the force weapon counted as a use of a psychic power).

[marful]

There were several units in 6th that had access to multiple psychic powers that could still only cast one a turn. Grey Knights in particular or any psyker with a force weapon (you may want to confirm that, but using the force weapon counted as a use of a psychic power).
And that reason was because of Mastery Level? Or another game mechanic, like say, Warp Charges?

Here is a hint: there was no Psychic Phase in 6th Ed. Psych Powers were spread out over all three phases (Movement, Shooting, Assault).

Regardless, the limitation wasn't because of mastery level.

[daboarder]

Krefey it is ery simple.


Please quote the rule which defines the specifics of the relationship between Mastery level and the number of powers which can be cast.

as opposed to merely quoting the rule which states there IS a relationship

[Krefey]

And that reason was because of Mastery Level? Or another game mechanic, like say, Warp Charges?

Here is a hint: there was no Psychic Phase in 6th Ed. Psych Powers were spread out over all three phases (Movement, Shooting, Assault).

Regardless, the limitation wasn't because of mastery level.

Well it was as mastery level only granted you one warp charge per mastery level. Yes, the psychic phase works differently now. But you raise a good point.


Krefey it is ery simple.


Please quote the rule which defines the specifics of the relationship between Mastery level and the number of powers which can be cast.

as opposed to merely quoting the rule which states there IS a relationship

Actually, you know wht, reading page 24 in the physical copy of the rulebook, under manifesting psychic powers:

If, after attempting to manifest a psychic power, you still have Warp Charge points left, you can attempt to manifest another power with the same unit... would really seem to settle the issue and allow you to cast as many powers you want regardless of mastery level. Of course, I got shouted down when I brought this up on the other forum. But it looks like you would agree.

[daboarder]

Yup we all agree

[John Bower]

You're all reading 2 separate sections to prove your point. I will quote the single paragraph you all seem intent on NOT taking into account that proves I'm right along with anyone else who agrees with that side of this argument:

"A psykers entry will usually state how many psychic powers the psyker has. Where this is not the case The Psyker knows a number of powers equal to his Mastery Level. Each of these powers will need to be generated as descrbied opposite."

So, we have here a statement that clearly shows a psyker could know more powers than his mastery level allows in theory; so from that suddenly your statement that he/she can continue casting at random will makes no sense because a level 1 psyker may have more powers than a normal level 1 psyker. The psyker's 'entry' is not dependant on his mastery level in any way shape or form in modern English.

This is 2 sections of a book, the first tells you the mechanic of the psychic phase while the 2nd tells you how. You are all using the rule that is written to cover multiple mastery levels and psykers to show that actually mastery level has very little bearing on #powers cast.

And don't expect anymore replies; I've proven my point enough to satisfy an Inquistor let alone anyone else.

[Wolfshade]

"One must behave as if you were a gentleman, even if he is not!"

Keep it civil, disagreements are good, reasoned debates better. Name calling and personal attacks, no.

[marful]

You're all reading 2 separate sections to prove your point. I will quote the single paragraph you all seem intent on NOT taking into account that proves I'm right along with anyone else who agrees with that side of this argument:

"A Psykers entry will usually state how many psychic powers the psyker has. Where this is not the case The Psyker knows a number of powers equal to his Mastery Level. Each of these powers will need to be generated as described opposite."
All these three sentences do is define how many powers a Psyker knows. As a matter of fact, the rule you are quoting only serves a purpose when a Psyker's Unit Entry does not explicitly state how many Psychic Powers it knows.

Nor is a Psyker's Mastery Level the limit to the number of powers a Psyker can know. For if you read the next few paragraphs the rules emphatically state that this is not the limit.

Number of Psychic Powers

A Psyker's entry will usually state how many psychic powers a Psyker has. Where this is not the case, the Psyker knows a number of psychic powers equal to his Mastery Level. Each of these powers will need to be generated as described opposite.

If a Psyker generates all of his psychic powers from the same psychic discipline, that Psyker will automatically know that discipline's primaris power in addition to any other powers they know, as described in Psychic Focus (below).

If a Psyker has one or more weapons with the Force Special Rule, that Psyker automatically knows the Force Psychic power (see opposite) in addition to any other power they know.



So, we have here a statement that clearly shows a psyker could know more powers than his mastery level allows in theory; so from that suddenly your statement that he/she can continue casting at random will makes no sense because a level 1 psyker may have more powers than a normal level 1 psyker. The psyker's 'entry' is not dependant on his mastery level in any way shape or form in modern English.
That is incorrect. It is not from this that we deduce that a Psyker can cast each of the psychic powers the Psyker knows.

It is by examining the sequence of play for using a psychic power, as outlined on page 23 and 24 of the 7th edition basic rulebook, we can see that the rules clearly account for, and explicitly state the conditions for when a Psyker can not continue casting Psychic Powers. Not one of these conditions includes a limitation due to the Mastery Level of the Psyker manifesting powers.

As a matter of fact in the 7th edition Rulebook, on page 23, from the beginning of the section titled "Manifesting Psychic Powers" all the way through page 24 to the very end of the section detailing the rules for "Manifesting Psychic Powers", not once is "Mastery Level" even mentioned. However, this rule section does state several different reason for when a Psyker can no longer continue manifesting Psychic Powers.

These limitations are the only limitations outlined in the 7th edition rulebook for when a Psyker cannot attempt to manifest a psychic power. No where else does it state a condition other than these three.

1.) The Player whose Psychic Phase it is no longer has any Warp Charges.
2.) The Psyker has already attempted to manifest that specific Psychic Power this turn.
3.) The Psyker has attempted to manifest all of the Psychic Powers it knows this turn.


Lastly, if we hold the premise that Mastery Level = Maximum Powers a model can Manifest a turn, then that rule contradicts the entirety of the rules for "Manifesting Psychic Powers on pages 23-24, as they would be invalidated because they explicitly allow for manifesting of Psychic Powers when a model would otherwise not be able to (under the assumed premise).

[Mr Mystery]

All that, and Psychic Focus shows ML1 will, by default, always have two powers.

[Harley]

7th is so frustrating with all these ambiguities in rules. So give it to me straight people.

I've got 5 warp charges this turn. Cotaez knows 2 powers from Divination plus the Primaris for a total of 3. How many powers can he cast this turn?

[Wolfshade]

Upto 3.

[DarkLink]

Four, he also has Force. He has, say, Prescience, Forwarning, Misfortune, and Force, with 5 dice to cast those powers.

[Wolfshade]

Yes, sorry I had neglected Force.

[Mr Mystery]

Four, he also has Force. He has, say, Prescience, Forwarning, Misfortune, and Force, with 5 dice to cast those powers.

This. As long as you have Warp Charge points, you can keep manifesting, provided no Psyker attempts to manifest each power more than once.

Really don't see how people are finding this so difficult.

[marful]

This. As long as you have Warp Charge points, you can keep manifesting, provided no Unit attempts to manifest each power more than once.

Really don't see how people are finding this so difficult.
Fixed that for you =P

If 2 or more psykers are in the same unit, the unit as a whole cannot attempt to manifest the same psychic power twice...

(Here is where it gets wonky and confusing... everything else I felt was pretty straight forward).

[Mr Mystery]

No, you're quite right.

Does need a FAQ. To my mind, Unit means Brotherhood of Psykers, rather than Warlock Council type thing. But you are accurate on the above.

[DarkLink]

That's where the psychic phase begins to break down. The most logical interpretation of raw is that psychic unit refers to a composite unit and thus multiple psykers joined together are a single psychic unit and can't repeat any powers.

However, following that logic to it's natural conclusion means that you merge mastery levels, warp charges, and psychic powers. The Seer council becomes a unit with ml1 and ml3 at the same time, but only generates 4 warp charge dice for the entire unit, but every single member 'learns' all the other powers that every other member knows, arguably even after the unit splits up, and any member may cast any power and you can allocate Perils to whomever you want within the unit. It gets pretty weird.

[Harley]

Really don't see how people are finding this so difficult.

Well only a few months ago he could only cast 2 (or 1 and activate weapon) and now it's 4 so you can see why this has been hard to wrap one's head around.

Now, I certainly would think Cotaez with Sanctic powers joining a squad of Greyknights, the knights could attempt to cast Hammerhand as well could Cotaez given he knew the power. However the squad of knights alone couldn't attempt to cast it more than once a turn.