The Forgotten Knight

[Demonus]

Saw this posted on FB today. Looks like it is from upcoming White Dwarf?

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[Mr Mystery]

Good Lord that's hard!

Good spot dude!

[Demonus]

looks like +1 BS/WS/Inv save, IWND, and run after shooting for +125ish pts

[40kGamer]

Holy crap! He looks to be a beast!

[Lordofchaos]

looks like +1 BS/WS/Inv save, IWND, and run after shooting for +125ish pts

And he is also a character so is able to issue challenges.

[Brakkart]

Ohh wow, he's a bit nasty! Think I'll have to grab myself a copy of that White Dwarf as been planning to get a Knight and I even like the paint scheme for that one.

[Demonus]

And he is also a character so is able to issue challenges.

Ah very nice didn't notice that. I liked his fluff in the Knights codex so had a friend paint mine up like him. Cool that he now has special rules to go with.

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[DrBored]

Just what we need. More Knights, for no good reason.

Oh, what's that? It's even harder to kill? Great. Y'know one thing I've never heard? "Knights are really super easy to take down! I wish they had IWND and a 3+ invul instead!"

[DWest]

Just what we need. More Knights, for no good reason.

Oh, what's that? It's even harder to kill? Great. Y'know one thing I've never heard? "Knights are really super easy to take down! I wish they had IWND and a 3+ invul instead!"
Actually, it *is* something we need- a Knight army is pretty much locked into a few specific points totals (1110/1125; 1480/1500; 1850/1875) with no way to vary it. Likewise, the Myth of Knight Invulnerabilty is pretty easy to burst; Melta-packing Marines in a Drop Pod do it; Wraithguard do it pretty well; Dark Eldar Wyches are all but guaranteed to smoke a Knight in a single round of CC with their Haywire Grenades; a Nob with Power Klaw has a decent chance to break the big guy (you'll lose a lot of Boyz in the process, but what Ork tactic doesn't start out with "you'll lose a lot of Boyz in the process"?); Chaos can get it done with a Biomancy Prince or Obliterators; Imperial Guard has the Vanquisher; and these are just units specifically tailored to anti-armor. You can still beat the things to death with Str 7+ firepower.

I think people get too focused on how big the model is and go "I can't beat that!" just for the sake of whining. Last local tournament I was at, 1850 points level, I was playing IG + Knight vs. Eldar; The Eldar player spent the entire game whining about how unfair it was that I was allowed to bring the big guy, and to prove his point, he refused to shoot his:
-3 Bright Lances
-Fire Prism
-2 Wave Serpents
-6 Wraithguard
at it, because they'd be wasted fire. On turn 3, he finally did turn the Wraiths on it, took 4 HP in one salvo. I then had to charge them, as my Thermal Cannon shot didn't get rid of the squad, and the Knight was shot down on Overwatch. In summary, if you decide you're going to lose to the Knight, then yes, *you will lose to the Knight*.

[Defenestratus]

Y'know one thing I've never heard? "Knights are really super easy to take down! I wish they had IWND and a 3+ invul instead!"

I've never really had a problem killing them... they're rather easy to make go boom.

[Lordofchaos]

Ah very nice didn't notice that. I liked his fluff in the Knights codex so had a friend paint mine up like him. Cool that he now has special rules to go with.

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Very Nice. Both my knights are paladin versions. I was wanting to get a third and make it an Errant and this definitely makes me want to build that version :D.

[Houghten]

Beats the Obsidian Knight all hollow, even at 125% of the cost.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

I have a question to you Knight players. How close is the fluff on this guy to the Green Knight in Bretonnian fluff? Could they be related? Is this some kind of good Daemon from the warp? Like a good guy version of Be'lakor?

[George Labour]

Oh, what's that? It's even harder to kill? Great. Y'know one thing I've never heard? "Knights are really super easy to take down! I wish they had IWND and a 3+ invul instead!"

Actually all the trolls and anti-fun bois said that a whole lot back in the weeks leading up to their initial release. Something about 375 points for something that'll die in turn 2 every game you'll ever play. But hey, why let facts (or previously posted opinions) get in the way of inciting drama?

[Duo Sonata]

I have a question to you Knight players. How close is the fluff on this guy to the Green Knight in Bretonnian fluff? Could they be related? Is this some kind of good Daemon from the warp? Like a good guy version of Be'lakor?

Well this Green Imperial Knight seems far more mundane in both rules and fluff in that he seems to be a lone veteran guarding his land where as the bretonnian green knight is an ethereal entity going where ever he is needed. The similarity between the two is that they appear in times of peril, though the imperial knight is unlikely to be seen outside his protective domain where as if he were a warp entity he could appear on various planets rather than just the one.

[Dual_Face]

This gives me even more of an excuse to buy a knight and paint him green.

I've been wanting to get one and paint him green for no reason but I guess I have one now

[DrBored]

I've played my share of games against Knights. They aren't super hard to take down IF you're prepared for them. I've played against knight-only armies, and let me make one point perfectly clear:

ARMIES MADE ENTIRELY OF KNIGHTS DO NOT NEED VARIETY. In my opinion, an all-knight army is simply the stupidest thing that GW has produced. It's an abomination. It's not that it's hard to beat, impossible to beat, or anything like that.. It's that it's not fun to play against. You either knock the Knights out because you know their gimmicks, or you're slaughtered because your army doesn't have enough anti-tank to deal with them. I don't care what upgrades or weapons they have, it's the platform that they're built on that makes them hard to deal with.

I'd be very, very happy if GW and Forgeworld stopped making Knights, apologized to the world for doing something this idiotic, and then released a FAQ that made them illegal to play. The game as a whole would miss nothing.

But, don't let my hot-headed rant interrupt your fun. I'm just a crazed knucklehead that witnessed one guy bring a 3-knight army against a guy that I had never seen before at my FLGS. He came in with his very well put together Mordian Guard army, most of it painted! He had Chimeras and Hellhounds and a Leman Russ or two, and was looking for a good, friendly game to dip his feet back into 40k.

I have not seen that player since. The Knights walked all over him, and I felt terribly, terribly bad for the guy. I wanted to deck the Knight player in the face for pulling that stupid stunt on a new player, and as a result, our community at my FLGS is weaker.

By all means, tell me how important it is to have more variety with harder-to-kill Knights on the field.

[deinol]

I have a question to you Knight players. How close is the fluff on this guy to the Green Knight in Bretonnian fluff? Could they be related? Is this some kind of good Daemon from the warp? Like a good guy version of Be'lakor?

You guys do realize that the Green Knight comes straight out of Arthurian legend, right? Go read Sir Gawain and the Green Knight, best bit of "Bertonnian" fluff you'll ever find.

I do approve of making a Green Imperial Knight. Add in some leafy bits from the wood elf range.

[DWest]

But, don't let my hot-headed rant interrupt your fun. I'm just a crazed knucklehead that witnessed one guy bring a 3-knight army against a guy that I had never seen before at my FLGS. He came in with his very well put together Mordian Guard army, most of it painted! He had Chimeras and Hellhounds and a Leman Russ or two, and was looking for a good, friendly game to dip his feet back into 40k.

So your definition of "good friendly game" is "bring only models I can easily kill" then? What if the other player had been playing Space Marines with any amount of Terminators (unless he had a Demolisher or Executioner, they're going to shrug off anything thrown at them). Or Flyers. Or Bikes. By the same token, 3 Knights is between 1110 and 1125 points. At that points level, nobody should be playing Leman Russes, because it's not fair to force people to bring weapons to breach AV 14 in that low of points. Unless the Knight player deliberately withheld information on what his army could do, your IG guy is a poor sport . . . or his gaming hours don't often coincide with your, did you ever think of that one?

[Herzlos]

So your definition of "good friendly game" is "bring only models I can easily kill" then? What if the other player had been playing Space Marines with any amount of Terminators (unless he had a Demolisher or Executioner, they're going to shrug off anything thrown at them). Or Flyers. Or Bikes. By the same token, 3 Knights is between 1110 and 1125 points. At that points level, nobody should be playing Leman Russes, because it's not fair to force people to bring weapons to breach AV 14 in that low of points. Unless the Knight player deliberately withheld information on what his army could do, your IG guy is a poor sport . . . or his gaming hours don't often coincide with your, did you ever think of that one?

A good friendly game is one where someone knows they might have a chance of having any involvement. Getting wiped out by 3 Knights certainly doesn't count.

[DrBored]

So your definition of "good friendly game" is "bring only models I can easily kill" then? What if the other player had been playing Space Marines with any amount of Terminators (unless he had a Demolisher or Executioner, they're going to shrug off anything thrown at them). Or Flyers. Or Bikes. By the same token, 3 Knights is between 1110 and 1125 points. At that points level, nobody should be playing Leman Russes, because it's not fair to force people to bring weapons to breach AV 14 in that low of points. Unless the Knight player deliberately withheld information on what his army could do, your IG guy is a poor sport . . . or his gaming hours don't often coincide with your, did you ever think of that one?

What Herzlos said.

But look at the context of the event. If you sit down with a veteran player and decide 'Yeah, let's play some tough match-up games', great, go for it, bring your Knights (that you wasted lots of money on). But against a new player to your FLGS? Why the hell would you want to discourage a new player so badly that they never show up at your gaming store again? Why wouldn't you discuss with him the kind of game he'd want to play and then cater to that, instead of roflstomping him out the door?

That's my bias with Knights, and armies full of fliers, and pretty much anything made to be WAAC or 'super competitive' or what have you. It makes no room for games that promote the hobby, particularly to new, potentially inexperienced players.

[Harley]

DrBored, someone else getting more variety and options does not somehow detract from your own ability and options. Sorry some people have a tough time against Knights. That's no reason to piss on their parade though.

This is a genius move on the part of GW. A "Special" character which requires no special model yet will increase sale of existing models. Chapterhouse and other 3rd party model makers have no reason to make a specific Green Knight since the only thing differentiating him is the paint scheme and his fluff. GW sells more green paint, Knight models and players get more options. Win Win.

[Caitsidhe]

Can I make them go boom? Sure. Is it easy? No. Did they need an even harder to kill option? No. What they needed were interesting support units, i.e. perhaps Knight Techs who follow them around in 4x4 vehicles to try and repair them. Look, I can pack a metric ton of Melta into my armies (and I do) but taking down more than one Knight a game is really difficult. They are just that fast and once in combat with you are that hard. It is freaking stupid that a 1500pt game can get three of them on the table. It is one more example of poorly tested models in the larger context.

I'm having to passing up a tournament this weekend because the TO is allowing Knights but disallowing all Data Slates, Lords of War, and limiting us to two sources. For me, as a CSM player, this means I pretty much automatically lose against any three Knight list and will have a hell of time taking out more than one at a time (and even that ties up most of my best shooting). My answer to Knights has been Be'Lakor who is STR-7 and has Armourbane (the Invisibility is secondary to that) because he can actually go toe to toe with a Knight and kill one. This seems fair enough since he costs as much. Being denied any options to increase my chance of killing them reduces me to being someone else's practice dummy for 6-8 hours. No thank you. If Knights were limited to a single one per army (and if more armies had access to them) they wouldn't be so bad. But since I keep seeing them in large groups, or combined with a Lord of War (with the rest of the army just window dressing) they are obscene. Giving them a supercharged version is just more tunnel vision.

[Harley]

You're passing up a tourney because there is one list variation that may give you trouble? Wow... that just seems like very poor sportsmanship.

Also keep in mind that if a TO is disallowing Data Slates then they should also be disallowing WD supplements such as this Green Knight.

[Charon]

You dont need the Green knight.
Go Main Detatchment Knights (which gives you an guaranteed +1 WS +1BF 3++ and an very hard to kill warlord for additional point costs) and 2nd detatchemnt whatever you like.

Knights are just plain stupid against an all-comer army.

[DWest]

But look at the context of the event. If you sit down with a veteran player and decide 'Yeah, let's play some tough match-up games', great, go for it, bring your Knights (that you wasted lots of money on). But against a new player to your FLGS? Why the hell would you want to discourage a new player so badly that they never show up at your gaming store again? Why wouldn't you discuss with him the kind of game he'd want to play and then cater to that, instead of roflstomping him out the door?

Again, where's your evidence that a) he was a new player and b) quit for good? A "fully painted Mordian" army doesn't sound like a new player to me; maybe somebody who's been out since 2nd/3rd edition, but he should at least be familiar with some of the tricks. What did the guy bring to deal with AV 14? What did he bring to deal with 2+ armor? Everything is "broken" when you don't bring the tools to actually kill anything.

[Gryphon]

I've played my share of games against Knights. They aren't super hard to take down IF you're prepared for them. I've played against knight-only armies, and let me make one point perfectly clear:

ARMIES MADE ENTIRELY OF KNIGHTS DO NOT NEED VARIETY. In my opinion, an all-knight army is simply the stupidest thing that GW has produced. It's an abomination. It's not that it's hard to beat, impossible to beat, or anything like that.. It's that it's not fun to play against. You either knock the Knights out because you know their gimmicks, or you're slaughtered because your army doesn't have enough anti-tank to deal with them. I don't care what upgrades or weapons they have, it's the platform that they're built on that makes them hard to deal with.

I'd be very, very happy if GW and Forgeworld stopped making Knights, apologized to the world for doing something this idiotic, and then released a FAQ that made them illegal to play. The game as a whole would miss nothing.

But, don't let my hot-headed rant interrupt your fun. I'm just a crazed knucklehead that witnessed one guy bring a 3-knight army against a guy that I had never seen before at my FLGS. He came in with his very well put together Mordian Guard army, most of it painted! He had Chimeras and Hellhounds and a Leman Russ or two, and was looking for a good, friendly game to dip his feet back into 40k.

I have not seen that player since. The Knights walked all over him, and I felt terribly, terribly bad for the guy. I wanted to deck the Knight player in the face for pulling that stupid stunt on a new player, and as a result, our community at my FLGS is weaker.

By all means, tell me how important it is to have more variety with harder-to-kill Knights on the field.

The Knights aren't the problem, but the player with the Knights is. The Knight player should have played something else, or taken out a knight, and added something else, if the other guy was just looking for a friendly game.
Having said that I want the rules for the Forgotten Knight myself. I only have one knight, and probably will only ever play one knight. I like having the option for some goof firepower. The knight I have is painted in Iron Hands colors, so my "Forgotten Knight" will be the "Iron Knight."

[This Dave]

The Knights aren't the problem, but the player with the Knights is. The Knight player should have played something else, or taken out a knight, and added something else, if the other guy was just looking for a friendly game.

Did the guy with the Knights bring a whole other army with him as well as the Knights?

[Mr Mystery]

The Knights aren't the problem, but the player with the Knights is. The Knight player should have played something else, or taken out a knight, and added something else, if the other guy was just looking for a friendly game.


Why? If it's a friendly game, who cares about the overall outcome? At what point does one person's hobby preference take precedence over the next person? Who gets to set the 'acceptable standard'?

[Charon]

Why? If it's a friendly game, who cares about the overall outcome? At what point does one person's hobby preference take precedence over the next person? Who gets to set the 'acceptable standard'?

At the point where one players army is not doing anything during the entire game. The friendly game doesnt care about the "outcome" but it does care about the stuff between "start" and "outcome". and if you drop your knights gainst the average all-comers army, the stuff between "start" and "outcome" tends to be unfun, frustrating and one-sided for one of the players.

[Mr Mystery]

Yet it's a fully legal army - why seek to ban/restrict it? In a Tournament, where fragile egos are on the line - up to the TO.

But in general? Why? Sometimes you face an army which is your natural nemesis. It's inevitable.

Don't fancy playing against Knights? Decline the game. Simple.

[George Labour]

You guys do realize you're being trolled by the 'OMG so OP and shouldn't exist' posts right? Just report them for derailing ANOTHER thread with their drama and move on.

After all the viability of an army versus others and the morality of using them has little to do with the topic of the thread.

Me personally I find it an interesting option. If I give up the vengeance batteries with quad lasers I usually take one of my knight becomes as powerful as if my Warlord had rolled a 6 on the traits table. As a bonus I get 25 more points to sink into upgrades for my guardsmen which could net me a couple of autocannons, or some krak grenades. Over all not a bad deal I think.

For those trying to run a all knights army this is also a nice addition and sort of rectifies the issue with the codex lacking any upgrades for the two units included inside of it.

[Charon]

If you want to defend the WAAC approach.. sure its a full legal army.
Like any deathstar army too.
If you seek to abuse your opponent just go on.

If you state that you will play knights or very knight heavy people tend to have no problem with that. But thats not what most knight players do. They always try to drop them at an unexpecting player.

[Mr Mystery]

Met most Knight players have we?

[Charon]

Most knight players that i have experienced up to date.
I hope the semantics are now clearer for you to understand and not to missinterpret.

Knights are a gimmick army. A one trick pony. There is no way for knights to win if the enemy comes prepared. And thus its pretty one sided.
On the other hand. Knights are a gimmick army. A one trick pony. Thats why I do encounter "Space Marine players" and "Imperial Guard Players" who happen to have 90% of their points invested in knights.

[Mr Mystery]

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So, who should be setting the acceptable level of play then?

[Path Walker]

Talk to your friends before you play the game, its in the rules, play with the rules.

[MajorWesJanson]

If you state that you will play knights or very knight heavy people tend to have no problem with that. But thats not what most knight players do. They always try to drop them at an unexpecting player.

Yes, I love to ambush people with my one (soon to be two) knights. It's not the cool looking model, or the fluff of knights, or getting to use them in full scale after playing with them in epic that I enjoy, it's the sheer look of terror on my opponent's face when I plunk my painted model on the table. :rolleyes:

May want to ease back on the generalizations and assumptions about people's motives a bit.

[Charon]

Yes, I love to ambush people with my one (soon to be two) knights. It's not the cool looking model, or the fluff of knights, or getting to use them in full scale after playing with them in epic that I enjoy, it's the sheer look of terror on my opponent's face when I plunk my painted model on the table. :rolleyes:

May want to ease back on the generalizations and assumptions about people's motives a bit.

So in short, the same reasons as people who play Seerstars, or multiple wave serpents or any other combinations of units?

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[EVIL INC]

To be honest, most players really dont have a problem facing knights. the hard part is keeping them alive.
On topic, yes, we do need more of them. The two we have simply does not give much variation.
This guy is pretty "hard" but remember, if your usinga knight army, your commander gets the stat upgrades fro free and still gets to take a warlord trait. the only differences I see are the character aspect to issue challenges, run and shoot and re-rolling ones to stomp. Likely, i would be more worried about getting different variations to fill greater battlefield roles than fielding him.

[George Labour]

Actually the FAQ gives the warlord knight the characters trait as well now.

[daboarder]

the problem with knights isn't that they are hard or easy to kill, that depends on the army.

The problem is that some armies (note armies, not lists, but entire codexes) Have no means of countering them, literally nothing Nids have has a very good chance of taking a knight, and even if you do take the massed CC Carnifexes that MAY eventually catch and kill it then you are horrendously exposed to the rest of the opponents army.

This isn't a problem unique to nids, other armies are in the same boat. Its basically the same problem fliers had early 6th only exacerbated.

[eldargal]

Gigglestomping them with haywire wyches is fun. That doesn't help 'nids I know.

[Charon]

Removing the entire wych squad as a result of the explosion is less fun.

[Demonus]

Do they still get their 4++ vs the Stomp? If so not as fun for the Stomper...

[eldargal]

It's an extra attack that happens in CC so we count it as yes they do.

[daboarder]

Seems fair

[silashand]

This isn't a problem unique to nids, other armies are in the same boat. Its basically the same problem fliers had early 6th only exacerbated.

Indeed. Pretty much exactly that. I expect as the other armies get released it will be mitigated significantly. I would love to do a Knight Household. I think the background and color schemes are just plain awesome. I have no desire to screw over my opponents by playing it though.


Do they still get their 4++ vs the Stomp? If so not as fun for the Stomper...

I see no reason why they would not get it. It's not a D-weapon attack so all normal rules would apply.


So in short, the same reasons as people who play Seerstars, or multiple wave serpents or any other combinations of units?

I wish people would get over the effing Wave Serpent thing. It's the only dedicated transport in the book. What are they supposed to ride in? Yes, it's very good, but it is hardly unbeatable or as bad as something like Seerstar, Beaststar, etc. I might agree with you if they had gotten the Venom (which IMO they should have, or at least something like it for the combat aspects), but they didn't so we have to deal with it. As long as the Eldar player brings a decently fluffy army I have no issue with them riding in Serpents if they like.

[DWest]

As long as the Eldar player brings a decently fluffy army I have no issue with them riding in Serpents if they like.
The problem with Wave Serpents is you start seeing people take a 5-pack of Dire Avengers so they can buy their Serpent, and then 6+ Serpents on the table as the actual combat strength of the army. It was the same way with Blood Angels; 5-pack of Assault Marines, drop the jump packs to buy a reduced-price Las/Plas Razorback

[jeffersonian000]

I have a question to you Knight players. How close is the fluff on this guy to the Green Knight in Bretonnian fluff? Could they be related? Is this some kind of good Daemon from the warp? Like a good guy version of Be'lakor?
Ironically, I'm thinking about using Grenatius paired with Legion of the Damned as a Ghost themed army.

SJ

[Demonus]

Ironically, I'm thinking about using Grenatius paired with Legion of the Damned as a Ghost themed army.

SJ

A buddy of mine just picked this up from Ebay. I told him he totally needs to buy some LotD...

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