Orks in another starter?

[Bear73]

Hi y'all,
Just wondering what your thoughts were about Orks being in Stormclaw. I'm sure you've seen buzz about this being the new starter set for 7th edition. If this is the case, this will be their third appearance in a 40k starter set (way back in 2nd and just two editions back in 5th edition). I'm guessing this decision was influenced by the recent Ork releases, Sanctus Reach and a Space Wolves update.
But does anyone know if Stromclaw will be sold as a starter set (with mini rule book and other accessories) or as a kind of companion/battle set (just models and Sanctus Reach missions)?
Any other thoughts about the set are welcome as well

[YorkNecromancer]

Orks are a strong IP because of the Tolkein connection. Orks have always basically been the other 'top tier' army in marketing terms (not game terms) largely because the word is so recognisable, and they counterpoint Marines so well thematically, because they're obviously 'baddies' when compared to the Space Wolf 'goodies'. It's a simple Face vs. Heel set, and it pushes the new products.

[Mr Mystery]

Orks are also Orks, and therefore totally awesome.

They are to 40k as Skaven are to Warhammer - essential for setting out the stall in terms of the setting. 40k wouldn't be 40k without the Orks!

Plus, dynamics wise, being a horde of lightly armoured cheap troops works nicely alongside the nature of Marines. Both in one box shows off most of the core mechanics and playstyles 40k has to offer. Which is why I found DV slightly odd in that regard. Gorgeous models, but Marine on Marine isn't the best way to sell the variety 40k has to offer :)

[Houghten]

I have absolutely no problem with this. I loved Black Reach; for the price of three metal Deffkoptas, you got three plastic Deffkoptas, plus five Nobz and twenty Boyz. I bought many.

You also got a Warboss, but you couldn't make use of more than two back in the day. Also a bunch of beakies, but who gives a zog?

[Wolfshade]

Orks are also very simple to explain.

Space Marines are the "good guys" i.e. super humans.

Orks are brutish savages who just live for a fight.

Now once you are into the game and fluff you realise that everything is not so clear cut, but it makes it easier to explain why they are at war (as one is literally alien) than the theological overtures of chaos v imperium fights.

[Anggul]

Seems a good way of getting people into the game. A lot of people like Orks, even if like myself they don't play them. They're kind of hard not to like.

I just wish they would release the plastic Black Reach Deffkoptas as a box. Seems daft to work on new models then revert to only selling the crappy old ones.

[Wolfshade]

Also, in terms of aliens "Orks" are quite straightforward to get into, there are orcs in mythology and thanks to LoTR:films they are more "mainstream".

Whereas nids require an alien connection and they are still 18s.

[Cutter]

Hi y'all,
Just wondering what your thoughts were about Orks being in Stormclaw. I'm sure you've seen buzz about this being the new starter set for 7th edition. If this is the case, this will be their third appearance in a 40k starter set (way back in 2nd and just two editions back in 5th edition). I'm guessing this decision was influenced by the recent Ork releases, Sanctus Reach and a Space Wolves update.
But does anyone know if Stromclaw will be sold as a starter set (with mini rule book and other accessories) or as a kind of companion/battle set (just models and Sanctus Reach missions)?
Any other thoughts about the set are welcome as well

I hope it's a starter set, but even if it's just a campaign set I'll probably give it serious consideration as an introduction for my 9 year old.

Sporks vs Spikings?

What's not to like...

[Eberk]

I have absolutely no problem with this. I loved Black Reach; for the price of three metal Deffkoptas, you got three plastic Deffkoptas, plus five Nobz and twenty Boyz. I bought many.

You also got a Warboss, but you couldn't make use of more than two back in the day. Also a bunch of beakies, but who gives a zog?

I liked having beakies in my AoBR box... I swapped them for someone else's Ork set from his AoBR box

[Protoman2k]

What do you expect from essentially plants? You kill them en masse, and they seed the planet only to return over and over again, until Extermantius!

[maartendp]

Orks are indeed an easier sell fort GW then other bad Guys because of the Tolkien Movies, and their general appearance in other fantasy and scifi entertainment.
It's space wolfs that I find odd fort a starter set

[Wolfshade]

I suppose it was only time

2nd - Blood Angels
3rd - Black Templars
4th - Ultramarines
5th - Ultramarines
6th - Dark Angels

So of the big 4 BA, DA, SW, UM it was about time

[Path Walker]

Its fun because although its obvious to new starters that Space Marines are goodies and Orks baddies, when you get into it, the Orks are really a lot less evil than the Imperium.

[Erik Setzer]

Its fun because although its obvious to new starters that Space Marines are goodies and Orks baddies, when you get into it, the Orks are really a lot less evil than the Imperium.

Ork's aren't even evil at all. They just want to party... which involves wrecking places. They don't get into torture and stuff like that. They just go wreck a joint for fun and move on to the next one.

[eldargal]

Orks are shown to be malicious, calculating and cruel. The fact it is their nature doesn't make them less evil. They may be one of the less evil races in 40k but that is all.

[Charon]

They don't get into torture and stuff like that.

They do and they enjoy it. They are just too brutal and crude to make the victim last longer.
I guess it was in "Path of the Outcast"...

"Maybe the orcs have taken prisoners!"
"They dont."
"How do you know?"
"There are no screams."

[Wolfshade]

To define something as evil then you need some form of morality which they transgress to make them evil.

As demonstrated before, each race follows their own morality to a more or less extent, the possible exception the tyranids that do not have a morality, they just feed and add biomass

[Mr Mystery]

Yup.

I really don't see Orks as evil at all. It's just their nature. Yes they cause devastation on a horrendous scale, and think nothing of enslaving weedier 'umies and that....but to them there is no question of it being right or wrong. It just is.

Much like Tyranids, they're more a force of nature than anything else. Both are expressions of the survival instinct taken to the extreme.

[eldargal]

To define something as evil then you need some form of morality which they transgress to make them evil.

As demonstrated before, each race follows their own morality to a more or less extent, the possible exception the tyranids that do not have a morality, they just feed and add biomass
Right, and to anyone on the receiving end of an ork waaagh they are no less evil than Necrons or Dark Eldar. The Orks may not have a moral code but they revel in the destruction they cause. The fact they view all the other races just as sport to kill for lulz doesn't make that any less evil. It is possibly an even more extreme form of arrogance than even the eldar display. They will sacrifice trillions of human lives to save a craftworld, the orks will sacrifice a trillion human lives for lulz.

[Wolfshade]

So perhaps the Orks are the most amoral of all creatures, as even the nids have a "cause" for their destruction, the accumilation of biomass.

[Charon]

Right, and to anyone on the receiving end of an ork waaagh they are no less evil than Necrons or Dark Eldar. The Orks may not have a moral code but they revel in the destruction they cause. The fact they view all the other races just as sport to kill for lulz doesn't make that any less evil. It is possibly an even more extreme form of arrogance than even the eldar display. They will sacrifice trillions of human lives to save a craftworld, the orks will sacrifice a trillion human lives for lulz.

You would need an "universal code of ethics" to state that.
Sure. Anyone at the receiving end of an ork waaagh would deem them evil (except maybe other Orcs, Drak Eldar and Tyranids). As anyone else would who was on the receiving end of a war. Hunns? Evil. Persia? Evil.
Actually lore implies that orcs are some kind of biological weapon unleashed by the old ones in the last desperate stages of war. They are the same kind of "evil" as a bomb or an alligator attacking a human. they do what they where created to do.

[eldargal]

So perhaps the Orks are the most amoral of all creatures, as even the nids have a "cause" for their destruction, the accumilation of biomass.
Yup, and the difference between amorality and evil when o uare on the receiving end is negligible. I mean if we just go by a species internal morality vs our observers morality then none of the races are particularly bad except Chaos and Dark Eldar.

[Wolfshade]

Well even if you are aware and being invaded by a "moral" force then again it is negligible. "We are removing all traces of life from this planet because of the taint of Chaos", being vapourised for the individual isn't going to be a good thing, but for the imperium or perhaps smaller scale sector it is a good thing and indeed the moral thing.

Yes, I think when most people talk of evil they go from an assume moral code that is aligned to our current one, whereby humans must be aligned as good as we like to think that society as a whole is "good".

[Mr Mystery]

I still reckon Craftworld Eldar are the secret serial killer.

It was Eldrad who set the chain of events in motion that lead to Ghazghkull after all (may have been a different Farseer, but defo a Farseer!).

Orks are just Orks. They don't have the same concept of death as other species do, and probably rarely stop to realise that 'umies can't just stitch bits back on and be fine. It's even alluded to (in my favourite bit of new background) that most Orks are utterly oblivious as to who actually pilots Killa Kans!

[40kGamer]

I still reckon Craftworld Eldar are the secret serial killer.

It was Eldrad who set the chain of events in motion that lead to Ghazghkull after all (may have been a different Farseer, but defo a Farseer!).

This is why I have no problem conjuring daemons with my Eldar psykers. I see Eldar as the ultimate ends justifies the means race and if letting a few Daemons loose benefits the craftworld then so be it. Just because they oppose Chaos doesn't mean they wouldn't use it.

As for Orks... I love seeing them in the starter sets as it makes it less painful to build up the horde. They've also been the go to xenos adversary for Space Marines since RT. I still have fond memories of the 'battle at the farm' scenario. :)

[Path Walker]

Orks aren't aware of the concept of non-combatants, even grots and snots get involved in a scrap, they might scarper, but they're still fighting!
They're not aware that other races don't enjoy fighting as much as they do, as far as an Ork is concerned, war is a big load of fun, so bringing war to another race is a gift, allowing them all to fight and die in the best way possible, as they believe with every fibre of their being that what they're doing is good, I wouldn't call them evil.
The way humanity in the Imperium treats each other and the other races is evil, the way the Dark Eldar sacrifice and tourture people for pleasure is evil, the Tau, exploiting other cultures while misleading them about the "greater good" is pretty evil. Its a flexible concept though, thats just my view on it!

[Anggul]

It's potentially also worth considering that Warcraft players will recognise them, and will like the fact that they instinctively know how to make stuff as if I remember correctly (not a Warcraft player) the Orcs in Warcraft are known as craftsmen.

Let's not have the 'what is evil' discussion again. That horse has been beaten so hard it looks like it's ready to be consumed by a hive ship.

[Erik Setzer]

I'm more convinced than ever that the Orks were created pretty much as the galaxy's "immune system." The humans have gotten out of hand and are screwing everything up, so who does Ghazghkull target first? The Imperium. The next place Gork and Mork send him is to a location where his actions basically cause an entire hive fleet to veer off and head there, where the Orks have already shown that in sufficient numbers they will wreck Tyranids (and are growing in that area). The Great Waaagh!'s plan basically seems to be going around to various areas, create a massive war that draws everyone into a war of attrition, and by their very nature, the Orks will win. (I felt a bit sad when someone told me that Orks would eventually run out of food. Clearly they don't know how Orks work.)

The original fluff said they were made by the Brainboyz who became Snotlings; newer fluff says it was the Old Ones. It's likely the Old Ones and Brainboyz were the same, and the Orks just *think* they became Snotlings (or maybe the Snotlings have delusions of grandeur). Either way, someone created the Orks to be an unstoppable mass. That this massive army of destructive creatures can stop and take time to just enjoy sports and throw parties and goes about war mostly as a party and not really with malicious intent (though some do tend to get a bit nasty, but hey, every groups has those) suggests that they are certainly not "evil." But they are still following their "programming."

- - - Updated - - -


It's potentially also worth considering that Warcraft players will recognise them, and will like the fact that they instinctively know how to make stuff as if I remember correctly (not a Warcraft player) the Orcs in Warcraft are known as craftsmen.

Eh, Warcraft Orcs are different, and are naturally reds and browns (their green skin is a result of drinking demon blood, so green Orcs in Warcraft are tainted). Those Orcs aren't exactly "craftsmen," they were mostly nomads who knew how to make simple huts and stuff and make hunting equipment. Once they were perverted to use in a war of annihilation, they were given the means to produce better stuff, but it was still pretty crude overall. It was only after they hooked up with Goblins that they were introduced to really effective means of making war machines. I believe one of the major hooks in Warlords of Draenor is that the one Orc (Garrosh) going through a portal to an older version of their homeworld ends up teaching the Orcs how to make a lot of war engines they didn't originally know about, which just helps things get all messed up. (That's about as far into that as I can get without making people who aren't into Warcraft start seriously asking what the heck I'm rambling about.)

Though, ironically, the main reason I was drawn to Orcs in the Warcraft RTS games and then an Orc Shaman when I was finally pushed into WoW is because I loved Orks/Orcs in Warhammer so much. (And the Warcraft Orcs were originally green because they were copies of Warhammer Orcs.)

[Bear73]

I really like where this race discussion is going. Imo, Dark Eldar are the most evil. Well, beside Chaos I suppose...
I just read the recent article about "VS" boxes and they seem to be what I was anticipating in my original post.

[lets_get_em_boyz]

As an ork player i can always use more boys

[Krefey]

I really like where this race discussion is going. Imo, Dark Eldar are the most evil. Well, beside Chaos I suppose...
I just read the recent article about "VS" boxes and they seem to be what I was anticipating in my original post.

The Dark Eldar along with Chaos are certainly the more "traditional" Evil in terms of characteristics. Orks are just hooligans who like a good scrap. But Nids. They have that soulless kind of evil as they devour everything in their path with no other discernable agenda other than to consume.

[marful]

The Dark Eldar along with Chaos are certainly the more "traditional" Evil in terms of characteristics. Orks are just hooligans who like a good scrap. But Nids. They have that soulless kind of evil as they devour everything in their path with no other discernable agenda other than to consume.
So, Orks are thugs DE & Chaos are serial killers and the tyranids are like the government?

[Krefey]

So, Orks are thugs DE & Chaos are serial killers and the tyranids are like the government?

AHhaha, probably. I always thought the Orks were more modelled of the British Soccer hooligans.

[Zithaska]

With regards to the OP...

There were rumors of Blood Angels vs Orks prior to the Sanctus Reach boxed set. There have also been mutterings of this boxed set "thing" continuing with the latest Space Marine release versus the latest Xenos release, especially seeing as they just re-released Dark Vengeance for 7th. The next codexes that are rumored to be in the pipeline are Blood Angels and Dark Eldar. Purely speculation on my part, but if the rumors of a Blood Angels vs ??? turn out to be true, I would not be surprised to see Blood Angels vs Orks or Dark Eldar.

Personally I would be happy if it were Blood Angels vs Orks, since I already play Blood Angels and have enough Orks to start a small army. I would be very sad if it were Dark Eldar, because so far I've successfully resisted starting a Dark Eldar army. My willpower would be insufficient to resist it if there was a boxed set with Blood Angels!