Using a Dreamforge Leviathan in 40k

[Jgolden]

Anyone have issues with someone using a Dreamforge Leviathan in 40k? I'm just curious what people think about using swapping one in for a Imperial Knight.

I mainly run Grey Knights and the Leviathan fits so well with the rest of the visual theme.

Doesn't hurt that they are 30% off until July 6th either... ;)

[Caitsidhe]

Anyone have issues with someone using a Dreamforge Leviathan in 40k? I'm just curious what people think about using swapping one in for a Imperial Knight.

I mainly run Grey Knights and the Leviathan fits so well with the rest of the visual theme.

Doesn't hurt that they are 30% off until July 6th either... ;)

Nine out of ten players don't give a rat's patootie. The one in ten that does is a douche bag.

[Nogle]

That response really backs anyone who doesn't agree with you into a corner, doesn't it?

My problem with the dreamforge stuff is that people were using it for warhounds, now they are using it for knights. not consistent.


Then again, you're talking to the guy who feels guilty for using maxmini shoulder pads on a few terminators.

[Krefey]

I wouldn't care as long as the size was similar. From what I've seent ehre are different sized dreamforge leviathons? One is closer to a warhound in size rather than a knight? Although that one might work well as a Lancer since that is bigger than the standard knight.

[Harley]

Nine out of ten players don't give a rat's patootie. The one in ten that does is a douche bag.

That kind of hyperbole really isn't helpful to the polarized community.

I think you will find that the 28mm Dreamforge Leviathan is decently larger than the Imperial Knights. So it's not surprising that some people might object to it. Personally I wouldn't care because it's a bigger target and easier to shoot. .

http://www.cold-moon.com/40k/Miniatures/KnightHousehold/Paladin/KnightScaleShots%20(1).JPG
Image from Mordian 7th Regiment blog.

[Caitsidhe]

That kind of hyperbole really isn't helpful to the polarized community.

I think you will find that the 28mm Dreamforge Leviathan is decently larger than the Imperial Knights. So it's not surprising that some people might object to it. Personally I wouldn't care because it's a bigger target and easier to shoot. .

http://www.cold-moon.com/40k/Miniatures/KnightHousehold/Paladin/KnightScaleShots%20(1).JPG
Image from Mordian 7th Regiment blog.

I don't consider it hyperbole at all. As long as the model is on the correct size base the only person who is at a disadvantage is the one using the larger model, i.e. harder to block LOS to it and far harder to give it 25% coverage. Just because something is bigger in 40K doesn't mean its stats are any better. We have seen this time and time again with Dreads, Monstrous Creatures, and even Super Heavies. My view is a model that looks like it belongs in the 40K universe on the correct base size is should be perfectly acceptable and in my experience it is to nine out of ten people. My opinion of the tenth stands.

[silashand]

Doesn't matter to me. I have a friend who uses it for either. Admittedly though the Dreamforge 28mm model is more appropriately sized for a Warhound rather than a knight, but again, doesn't matter to me. The bases are reasonably the same so I'm good with either.

[Nogle]

The bigger height will let you see over things you wouldn't normally see over.

I don't see the height as that much of a disadvantage. there's not many pieces of terrain that would fully block the GW knight. Also think that most pieces of terrain that cover 25% of the GW model will also cover 25% of the dreamforge model.

[Caitsidhe]

LOS is measured from the gun, not the head of the model. Most LOS blocking terrain standard will stop the gun just fine.

[Wildcard]

What about the 15mm scale crusader?

Quick Googleing:
15mm Leviathan Crusader: 4.6"
28mm Leviathan Crusader: 8.5"
Imperial Knight: 8.0"

Now, i remember reading somewhere that the Imperial Knight would actually be only 6" tall (8" would be error in GWs website). This would put the Imperial Knight right between the two thus making it possible to use 15mm variant as knights and 28mm variants as Warhounds :)

[Path Walker]

As long as it was painted to match your army or looked like it belong, then I'd be cool with it, thats what they're designed for after all!

[silashand]

What about the 15mm scale crusader?

A friend of mine has the 15mm version. It's about the size of a Dreadnought which is what he wanted it for.

[Renegade]

As far as I am concerned, there better be about 2500 words or fluff to use a model that both FW and GW produce (unless Orks) or it is some kind of proxy. If neither of those don't expect an automatic yes.

I can really get behind conversions, but full model swaps are almost as bad as the grey hordes.

[Lord Krungharr]

Damn those Knights are so PUNY! I really think they are too small to be super-heavy walkers, I mean a Wraithknight is just a Monstrous Creature afterall, and the freakin' Gorkanaut is only a regular Walker.

Anyways, the Dream Forge model is awesome, and is at least equally cool to the GW Knight, especially if one has a Grey Knights and/or Inquisitors force beside it. So I say yeah, go ahead and use it. If it were of less quality than it is, I might have a problem (like some cheapo PVC 'robot warrior' figure or something). But DreamForge and similar companies have the complexity of aesthetic to fit in with real 40k stuff.

[Darren Richardson]

I wouldn't let my oppenent use it as a Knight, the size of the model itself throws it off to much, as a small titan, yeah I might if it was converted enough and/or painted to match their army....

Now if the smaller scale one is close in size to a Dreadie, then I would happily let them use one painted in their armies colours as a Dreadie....

But that's just me, one amongst many players....

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Then again, you're talking to the guy who feels guilty for using maxmini shoulder pads on a few terminators.

Don't feel guilty, I'm using some of their Space Knight heads on my Marines for veterans, and their Space Police Helmets and Anti-Roit Gear on some IG to convert up into Adaptus Aribites.

[silashand]

As far as I am concerned, there better be about 2500 words or fluff to use a model that both FW and GW produce (unless Orks) or it is some kind of proxy. If neither of those don't expect an automatic yes.

I can really get behind conversions, but full model swaps are almost as bad as the grey hordes.

I suspect your kind of puritanism is on the decline in today's age of alternates that are just as good (and sometimes better) than GW's offerings. I don't give a rat's *** if someone wants to use non-GW models. Not everyone likes the GW "style" and that's their prerogative.

[Tomgar]

I have to be honest, as much as it makes me sound like an arsehole, I wouldn't be super okay with it. It doesn't fit the GW aesthetic and having it on the table would break the immersion of the game for me. Sure, that's not a major complaint for people who just wanna play but I love the narrative and aesthetic aspect of 40k so I don't see why I should have to compromise on the things I enjoy about the hobby.

Also, it touched a nerve how (when Imperial Knights were leaked and when they went up for preoders) people basically started mocking GW's pricing and bloody advertising the leviathan on 40k blogs and pages. When you get people saying "hurr durr, that thing looks gross, can't believe GW are charging £85 for it, here's a link to the Leviathan," it creates a poisonous atmosphere. I regularly saw people saying that anyone who bought a Knight was a moron before posting a link to the Leviathan. Bugger all of that, it was just flamebait that made the community intolerable to engage in for a solid month.

Also, (and I'm aware this is entirely subjective and not a good reason to not play one) I just think it's ugly. Looks like a cheap action figure.

[silashand]

it creates a poisonous atmosphere.

Frankly I think it's GW's pricing that creates the poisonous atmosphere. Sure, some folks are okay with them, but purely my own experience shows more and more people are dropping GW and/or looking for alternatives. Maintaining the aesthetic only goes so far if you ask me. Granted, I tend to have pure GW armies myself, but I tend to scrounge around and get things for a discount/2nd hand if I can. I don't see that being a long-term strategy though so eventually I just won't buy GW stuff at all.


Also, (and I'm aware this is entirely subjective and not a good reason to not play one) I just think it's ugly. Looks like a cheap action figure.

To each their own. I happen to think it looks pretty darn awesome (except for a couple of the weapons).

[Tomgar]

You can blame GW's pricing all you want but going around calling people morons for buying their preferred product is entirely on the people doing the trolling. I dunno if they worked for Dreamforge or were just childishly bitter towards Games Workshop but it's hardy GW's fault that these people were hellbenton starting stupid, petty flamewars.

[DWest]

I think the big Leviathan is too big to be a Knight; the Errant/Paladin kit only stands 6.5". It might work as a Lancer, but it's too beefy; however, I think it would make a great Warhound to match the aesthetic of the Knights. 3 Paladins + a Warhound = a terrifying 1850 list (1845, actually, but close enough).

[Forge Master]

As long as it's on the right sized base and painted to a reasonable standard. If players on a budget are looking for alternatives or just prefer the aesthetic of the the Dreamforge model, I just don't mind.
I think if a whole 40k army was made up of non GW models or the majority was then I would have an issue.

[silashand]

You can blame GW's pricing all you want but going around calling people morons for buying their preferred product is entirely on the people doing the trolling. I dunno if they worked for Dreamforge or were just childishly bitter towards Games Workshop but it's hardy GW's fault that these people were hellbenton starting stupid, petty flamewars.

I will give you that much. I don't think it should matter one whit what people like or don't like. However, I have seen the same thing in reverse when it comes to all the Mantic bashing that goes on every time they release something. I don't care if people like their stuff or not or if they think they are original or not. If it's not a direct copy then it's legal and people are allowed to buy it if they like it, period.

[DavidDraper]

I am fine with it. For me, this is a game that involves having fun and playing with models. I'm accept that there are some really competitive players out there who want to win at all costs or who are very strict about the rules and see a non-GW model on a non-GW base as outside those rules or giving an unfair advantage, but I say go for it. I think its a cool model and will feel even better if and when my guys blow it up. ;-) :-)

D

[Caitsidhe]

I am fine with it. For me, this is a game that involves having fun and playing with models. I'm accept that there are some really competitive players out there who want to win at all costs or who are very strict about the rules and see a non-GW model on a non-GW base as outside those rules or giving an unfair advantage, but I say go for it. I think its a cool model and will feel even better if and when my guys blow it up. ;-) :-)

D

The models rarely, if ever, give an unfair advantage. It is FAR EASIER to get a Games Workshop model that does that. If I were to use the standard Be'lakor, for example, it would be a snap to hide him from LOS. I don't. I converted my own that looked appropriate in size to the most powerful Daemon Prince. Every model I have ever seen on the table from other companies has been as big, if not bigger, than the requirement. In 40K bigger is not better. It makes it harder to get cover and to hide it. The WAAC type generally use Games Workshop models and/or model for advantage. I add the caveat that true WAAC type players are the exception. The term just gets used far too liberally by anyone who loses a game. It isn't unlike hearing the term "Troll" on the internet used for anyone and everyone who disagrees with someone.

In fact, the only time I ever hear people complain about models like the Dreamforge is when they are being scumbags and trying to disallow a model whose stats they don't want to face on the table. They try to use the model as a means to bar the player or part of his lists at tournaments. Most Tournament Organizers give such people the proper disdain they deserve, and most people using such models simply clear it with the TO before the event. Let me put it this way, with no ambiguity. Our hobby is NOT Games Workshop. Our hobby is toy soldiers. Games Workshop is just a merchant, the top dog, in a field of merchants who provide product for our hobby. As long as the proper base sizes and rules are being obeyed, I don't which merchant you got your model from.

[Kargarok]

I have both a Knight and a Leviathan. Depending on the game I will probably have the Levi either stand in for a Knight companion or a warhound, but as always check with your opponent first. These games are supposed to be fun right? No fun for your game mate if he can't field anything to deal with it.

[Jgolden]

Hey all, I know I'm resurrecting this thread but I've done a bunch of reading and have taken the input from you all and the people at my local gaming shop. I decided to go with a Modified Warhound Titan spec. drawn up to be more in line with the Grey Knights. Here they are.

11380

C = Codex: Grey Knights
RB = 7th edition Rule Book
A = Apocalypse Rule Book
MT = Codex: Militarium Tempestus
5C = 5th edition Codex: Grey Knights
JGF = My initials. Means I made up that rule / weapon.

I specifically made it so there is inner strategy involved as you cannot activate both weapons and use psyker powers at the same time.

I play tested it last night against a 750 pt. Necron army. It came down to my Nemesis Titan with one hull point and his Triarch Stalker. I Periled and lost on turn 5. So I see it as a successful first run.

What do you all think?

[GrauGeist]

Field it as whatever you like. He's bigger and badder than an Imperial Knight, closer to a Warhound in awesomeness.