One small irritation of mine....

[Mr Mystery]

Just come from the Tactics Board, where I chipped in on a discussion about Wraithblades, and which weapon loadout people favour.

And it got me thinking - How comes there are so many units where a weapon swap has to be across the board? Not stuff like grenades, those make a certain amount of sense for record keeping. But different weapon options.

How come Wraithblades all have to be Sword or Axe? Why no mixing allowed? Ditto my Necron Lychguard and Triarch Praetorians. Why no mixy-matchy for them?

Some units can have differing weapons, for example Assault Terminators can have a mix of Lightning Claws and Thunder Hammer/Storm Shield so there is precedent within the game. And with Meganobz being to be flexible on Killsaw upgrades, it's not a hangover from a previous edition.

What gives BoLs?

[Houghten]

I think it's a result of trying too hard to make combi-boxes. If Wraithguard just had a single unit entry, where every model could pick wraithcannon / d-scythe / two swords / sword and shield / axe and shield, then the box only makes one unit. Arbitrarily restrict them and suddenly, with no increase in plastic, it makes two!

[Mr Mystery]

I'm fine with Wraithguard and Wraithblades being separate units. It's the inexplicable inflexibility in their armanent that vexes me.

[Eldar_Atog]

I'm fine with Wraithguard and Wraithblades being separate units. It's the inexplicable inflexibility in their armanent that vexes me.

It matches the fluff for Craftworld Eldar pretty well when you think about it. Excluding harlequins, almost all the Craftworld units are static. You can give the Exarchs and HQ's special equipment but almost every other infantry unit in the army has a specific weapon layout.

Keep to the Path. If you want to use a different weapon, then you'll have to start a new path at a different aspect shrine.

[Anggul]

I guess they don't want those units being much good? Honestly I can't see any decent reason for it. Being able to take 3 shields 2 scythes would make Lychguard a lot more viable, and the same goes for Wraithblades who would like 3 shield/axe 2 swords.

They still wouldn't be much good, but at least they would be better.

That Path comment doesn't work out. They're undead, not aspect warriors, and there's no reason for them not to have forceshields up front to take heavy fire and blades behind to strike out with more attacks at higher speed when they make combat.

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

I like it for Necrons. I prefer uniformity personally.

[Krefey]

People only tend to mix and match items when it provides them an in game benefit, otherwise they will just maximise the same option to provide redundancy. So I'd say they limit the options to reduce "gameyness"

[DarkLink]

Instead, it makes most of the options terrible. Wraithguard would be significantly better if you could take a couple of axe/shields, a flamer or two, and a couple str 10 shots in each unit. Instead, you're stuck with either significant diminishing returns or crippling inflexibility on most of the options. The axe/shield combo lacks the attacks to be a good close combat unit and can't do anything else, the sword version has a few more attacks but lacks the durability for a unit as expensive as they are, the flamers are hugely expensive which limits their viability, leaving mostly just the str 10 gun version for killing tanks and heavy infantry.

[maartendp]

It's nog only necrons and Eldar that bug me. I play SM, and I always wondered why I have to take one special and one heavy weapon instead of having their option to take two of the same

[Krefey]

It's nog only necrons and Eldar that bug me. I play SM, and I always wondered why I have to take one special and one heavy weapon instead of having their option to take two of the same

I think that's because they are loosely based on real life fire teams who might have one specialist weapon and one heavy gunner.

[Morgrim]

Could it be memories of the ugly shenanigans caused in 5th ed with units like nobs, where fiddling with different wargear on different units did little but slow down the game and let certain WAAC players game situations in their favour? GW struggles with balance as it is. Letting units become less homogeneous only makes the balance issue tougher.

[Charon]

Could it be memories of the ugly shenanigans caused in 5th ed with units like nobs, where fiddling with different wargear on different units did little but slow down the game and let certain WAAC players game situations in their favour? GW struggles with balance as it is. Letting units become less homogeneous only makes the balance issue tougher.

Most certainly not as the 6th got finally rid of wound groups and it doesnt matter how your nobz are equipped.
Most of the units are leftovers from 2nd edition. And after they do not generate new sprues with every edition (except when you are a space marine) you gotta keep your weapn options from edition to edition with very litte room to mix and match.

[Mr Mystery]

True that. And Nobz were somewhat anamolous, as they were the only unit really capable of exploiting that, and their book was written during the era of 4th Ed (I think...).

Oddly, stuff like Tactical Marines I don't mind so much, as there is an established background reason for their restrictions (Codex approved etc).

But other units? I'm fine with some being dakka based, and others hitty based, but why the lack of choice beyond that one?

[daboarder]

True that. And Nobz were somewhat anamolous, as they were the only unit really capable of exploiting that, and their book was written during the era of 4th Ed (I think...).

Oddly, stuff like Tactical Marines I don't mind so much, as there is an established background reason for their restrictions (Codex approved etc).

But other units? I'm fine with some being dakka based, and others hitty based, but why the lack of choice beyond that one?

them and paladins

[Mr Mystery]

Yeah, I forgot about those. Wolf Guard as well, though not to the same degree, IIRC.

[Eldar_Atog]

That Path comment doesn't work out. They're undead, not aspect warriors, and there's no reason for them not to have forceshields up front to take heavy fire and blades behind to strike out with more attacks at higher speed when they make combat.

Yet the soul is still there in the jewel and the soul is from a centuries old craftworlder. The path is ingrained in them. Think about all the ghost stories where the ghost does the same thing every night. The person did the same thing every day and they did it the same way.

I'm not arguing that the mechanics aren't silly. It does seem clunky to me that every one of them has to take the same weapon layout. That might explain why the harlequins are my favorite unit in the army. They are the most customizable unit in the army.

[Harley]

Because Eldar and Necrons are static races. They have survived for millennium as they are, unchanging except for the swings of fate that befall them. Having static units befits this mentality.

Humans on the other hand are so diverse, ever evolving and changing as a young race. Having static units makes no sense for them because that is not the way a human mind functions.

An Eldar would probably shake it's head at the notion of mix matching a squads load out and wonder why you would want to do that.

[ReveredChaplainDrake]

Tyranids are pretty big fans of homogenization across their units, though that has more to do with the fact that everything that isn't a devourer (particularly TLed Brainleech) is complete garbage. But even Termagants can have different loadouts across their broods now, even if the only reason to do it is to buffer your meaningful gribbles with less meaningful gribbles who run up front and die first. I think the homogenized loadout restriction on Carnifexes was removed, though the only reason it existed in the first place was to stop people from playing wound allocation shenanigans with T6 4W 3+ save monstrous creatures. Instead, you get to play wound allocation shenanigans with T4 W2 2+/5++ save paladins instead.

I commonly associate homogenization with Xeno (and Daemon... who are technically Xeno if you think about it) units, whereas weapon specialists seem to be more of a Human (and Ork, who largely copycat human stuff) construct. Frankly, I prefer the specialist units, even if homogenized, as they reward the player who knows how to deploy them, move them, and pick targets. On the other hand, having a melta bomb, a Rocket Launcher, or a power fist in every unit feels like a safety blanket for noobs. Not to mention a fantastic way to waste 7 Bolters by shooting a Predator in the side with a Rocket Launcher. I've always thought that a Sergeant should allow single weapon specialists like this to split fire (on a passed Ld check... it's called a Leadership stat for a reason), but that's just me.

[Sargejohnson]

One of the things that annoyed me with the new ork codex, is that you now have to pay extra for shootas. I was hoping that you were paying extra, to actually get an extra weapon, spesh marinesh style. But no, you lose your slugga, and and essentially nerf the unit of Boyz. My club let me play with mixed units as a house rule, and in the long run it didn't make any difference. Until 6th came along, and then it still didn't make a difference because my Orks hit on 5's, and never 6's lol. In the end, I'm not convinced even GW know why they wouldn't let you mix it up.

[Tomgar]

It is pretty weird how my Deathwing Terminators can, in one squad, have TH+SS, Lightning Claws, a Heavy Weapon, a Powerfist/Stormbolter and Power Sword/Storm Bolter. Yet other elite Terminator formations (Sword Brethren, for example) have a much more restricted loadout. I find it hard to believe that the Dark Angels, of all chapters, just happen to be less tight-assed with their gear.

[Krefey]

One of the things that annoyed me with the new ork codex, is that you now have to pay extra for shootas. I was hoping that you were paying extra, to actually get an extra weapon, spesh marinesh style. But no, you lose your slugga, and and essentially nerf the unit of Boyz. My club let me play with mixed units as a house rule, and in the long run it didn't make any difference. Until 6th came along, and then it still didn't make a difference because my Orks hit on 5's, and never 6's lol. In the end, I'm not convinced even GW know why they wouldn't let you mix it up.

Shootas being free was pretty awesome. Given that instead of just rnuning across the field you can be pumping out 60 odd shots a turn and softening up your opponent before charging them was awesome. You lose a single attack for not having two ccw (just like the previous codex), which when you've got 2 attacks base isn't really a huge disadvantage, particulary when you are indeed firing so many shots that even hitting on 5's you'll get a solid number of hits. Personally I feel the 1 point extra for shootas is justified.

- - - Updated - - -


It is pretty weird how my Deathwing Terminators can, in one squad, have TH+SS, Lightning Claws, a Heavy Weapon, a Powerfist/Stormbolter and Power Sword/Storm Bolter. Yet other elite Terminator formations (Sword Brethren, for example) have a much more restricted loadout. I find it hard to believe that the Dark Angels, of all chapters, just happen to be less tight-assed with their gear.

I would put this down to the fact that the DA don't really follow the codex astartes as closely as most other chapters do. Space wolves also get the variability that the Dark Angels get.

[Jason Young]

I think that's because they are loosely based on real life fire teams who might have one specialist weapon and one heavy gunner.

Were that the case they shouldn't let you field an entire Command Squad with Grav-guns.. On top of that you run into the issue of what works and what doesn't... For instance, Dreadnoughts pretty much get the shaft anymore unless you field Rifleman variants or some other instead of some more fun things..

[PaladinSL]

I would put this down to the fact that the DA don't really follow the codex astartes as closely as most other chapters do. Space wolves also get the variability that the Dark Angels get.

I play Ultramarines and my terminators can select weapon upgrades per model rather than squad wide too and we fall asleep with codex-printed bedsheets in our codex-approved jammies. Granted the number of options isn't spectacular, but I can choose the numbers that change to TH/SS in Assault Termies and Chainfist in Shootie Termies. (Plus the other weapon options for the shooters). I can see several reasons for homogenizing the weapons options, nothing worse than assault turning into"Ok, I have three axes, a sword, that guy has.. a lance i think, lemme check my army list.."

EDITS:Spelling, grammar, its 0100 I need to not post on forums at this hour.

[Krefey]

I play Ultramarines and my terminators can select weapon upgrades per model rather than squad wide too and we fall asleep with codex-printed bedsheets in our codex-approved jammies. Granted the number of options isn't spectacular, but I can choose the numbers that change to TH/SS in Assault Termies and Chainfist in Shootie Termies. (Plus the other weapon options for the shooters). I can see several reasons for homogenizing the weapons options, nothing worse than assault turning into"Ok, I have three axes, a sword, that guy has.. a lance i think, lemme check my army list.."

EDITS:Spelling, grammar, its 0100 I need to not post on forums at this hour.

You can, but you can't mixed shooty terminators with assault terminators.

[daboarder]

Except deathwing and chaos

[Tomgar]

Yep. 2 or 3 Stormshield dudes standing in front of your Plasma or Assault cannon is pretty excellent.

[PaladinSL]

You can, but you can't mixed shooty terminators with assault terminators.

True, but why would you want to? Paying the full cost for a unit that cannot do either at full efficiency? Biggest advantage (in my opinion) of shooting termies is that they can stand off at 24", outside rapid fire range for anyone else and fire at full effect where the enemies standard troops are going to have issues getting enough weight of fire on them to burn through the 2+/5++, swords and axes don't do a whole lot at 24", so they are points on the table not taking effect for every turn they sit there. Whereas the melee ones get into combat ASAP to get out of the rain of shots that can be leveled against them in close proximity and again, storm bolters and assault cannons do not do a whole lot once the stabbing begins. I like my units to be turning their points into death as often as physically possible, especially as SM where so very many opposing forces will outnumber me 2:1 or greater and have greater flexibility for objective turtling.

[Charon]

True, but why would you want to? Paying the full cost for a unit that cannot do either at full efficiency?

Because assault termies get the 3++
You dont want them to be more effective in melee but to protect your shooty termies from the evil plasma.

[Tomgar]

Beat me to it, Charon. Those TH+SS guys give you a good 2-3 turns of firing a plasma cannon at stuff and (if they're still alive by this point) make for a hefty counter-charge when the enemy start to close ranks with you. Sure, it's not the best or most points-efficient tactic but it's at least solid.

EDIT: Also, what are you losing here? Two storm bolter shots a turn? Small price to pay to protect your heavy imo.

[Mr Mystery]

Yup. Terminators all have Powefists, so mixing the unit up doesn't really reduce efficiency all that much.

[DarkLink]

Alas, but foot Terminators tend to just get Wave Serpent'd off the board. Land Raiders are good now, though, so you should see a resurgance in THSS Terminators.

[EVIL INC]

I think it's a result of trying too hard to make combi-boxes. If Wraithguard just had a single unit entry, where every model could pick wraithcannon / d-scythe / two swords / sword and shield / axe and shield, then the box only makes one unit. Arbitrarily restrict them and suddenly, with no increase in plastic, it makes two!
I see this being the case. I agree with the OP though, I'd MUCH rather be able to mix and match.