Deploying attached in transports.

[EVIL INC]

Now, battle brothers can ride in transports of their allies Woo Hoo, this actually makes sense.
1. I'm thinking they can deploy in the transport with their allies. In terms of Indy characters i mean. Say for example, I have a commissar lord who wants to ride down in a drop pod attached to a 5 man tac squad. I'm thinking this would be legal.
2. Could the same commissar lord pod down in the empty pod of a dev squad who is deploying on the table? I'm thin king not but gotta toss it out there just in case someone wants to prove me wrong.

[DETHMOKIL]

well, a drop pod is a dedicated transport, so only the unit it was bought for can go into it at the start of the game, so with no one in it, a commissar can't attach to it.

[Harley]

I don't see why an IC cannot join a unit inside it's dedicated transport for deployment? He becomes a part of that unit.

For example, Canoness deploys with Sororitas squad inside a dedicated Rhino transport. Said Canoness could not however start in it by herself and the squad outside.

[Mr Mystery]

RAW, the only way to join a unit in a dedicated transport, or indeed any transport, is if it's held in reserve.

Short version follows.

Dedicated Transports can only have their parent unit deployed in them at the start of the game.

Characters join units on deployment by deploying within coherency with them.

Combine those two, and you can't do both, as you don't form coherency with the unit.

However, Reserves have more specific wording in this regard, in that you declare who is where and in what when declaring your reserves.

Hope this helps :)

[Allen Broussard]

There is no rules in the Current BRB that disallow you to start an IC inside a dedicated transport at the start of a game as long as he is attached to the unit.


There is specific mention of it in either the IC or transport rules sections if i remember correctly as a matter of fact.

[EVIL INC]

This is what I was thinking. You can attach librarians and chaplains and such to units coming down in pods before the game so didnt think independant characters from battle brothers who are also allowed to attach and now to ride in transports would be any different. Didnt think they could ride down without the parent unit though but figured i'd ask anyways
I see a lot of daemonology bombs starting to get played using this.

[Mr Mystery]

There is no rules in the Current BRB that disallow you to start an IC inside a dedicated transport at the start of a game as long as he is attached to the unit.


There is specific mention of it in either the IC or transport rules sections if i remember correctly as a matter of fact.

Sadly not.

You deploy onto the board one unit at a time. So Transport, Unit (declared to be in transport), and then the IC. As the unit is not on the board, only the transport, there is no way for the IC to be deployed within 2" of the unit, and thus count as having joined it.

This is not the case if all three elements are in reserve, as you declare they're a single roll when declaring reserves.

[John Bower]

Sadly not.

You deploy onto the board one unit at a time. So Transport, Unit (declared to be in transport), and then the IC. As the unit is not on the board, only the transport, there is no way for the IC to be deployed within 2" of the unit, and thus count as having joined it.

This is not the case if all three elements are in reserve, as you declare they're a single roll when declaring reserves.

All it says is that he must be deployed in coherency with the unit. Since RAW once he joins the unit for all rules purposes he is part of it, he would deploy 'with' the unit. Where is a rule that you deploy 1 unit at a time? I can pick up 2 Leman Russ tanks and easily deploy both one in each hand. The same goes for a character; I pick up the unit; and the character, and put them on the table in coherency. There you go, he's deployed in coherency; if it's in a transport I pick up the transport, put it on the table and then declare that 'this guy is with these guys in this vehicle' and put him with them. Nothing anywhere says that's illegal. And if anyone said to me 'you can't do that because blah blah blah' I'll just pack up and leave and remember him as TFG so I never play him again. Because I know of nobody of the people I play against that would rule that any other way or try. heck most would use their characters like that too.

[Mr Mystery]

One unit has to go down before the other.

In order to join the unit, it has to be on the board itself, so the character can deploy within 2" of them. Clearly he cannot do this if they are in a transport, on account they aren't physically on the board. And as Dedicated Transports can only have their parent unit deployed in them, he can't go in it without having joined the unit.

Don't go calling TFG when it's what the rules state. Whether it makes sense to you or not is immaterial. They are what they are. Want to agree to ignore that bit with your opponent? Go for it.

But you can't go calling someone TFG for following the rules dude.

[rapid87]

the german BRB specially says (on page 82) that indepent characters can infact join units in dedicated transports.

[Harley]

One unit has to go down before the other.

What page number and paragraph says this?


You are going to have a hard time telling players that models within a transport are not in unit coherency and that is the only requirement for an IC to join a unit during deployment (unless in reserve).

[Tynskel]

Sadly not.

You deploy onto the board one unit at a time. So Transport, Unit (declared to be in transport), and then the IC. As the unit is not on the board, only the transport, there is no way for the IC to be deployed within 2" of the unit, and thus count as having joined it.

This is not the case if all three elements are in reserve, as you declare they're a single roll when declaring reserves.

This is a poor interpretation of the rules.
By convention, if you are embarked inside a transport with another unit, you are within 2". Additionally, when an IC is joined, they are the same unit.

There's *nothing* in the rules that prevent you from doing this simultaneously. There's *nothing* in the rules that prevent you from doing this after the transported unit is deployed to the board, either.

[Path Walker]

Except you can only deploy the unit that bought it within the dedicated transport, you can only join an IC to a squad by deploying it within 2" or by putting it in reserve with a unit. So, as its not part of the unit yet, you can't deploy the IC into the transport or within 2" of the unit as its in a transport, if you want to IC to start in the transport then you need to put them all in Reserve. Its the rules as they're written, Mystery is right.

[40kGamer]

Someone should probably tell GW that they are playing their game wrong in their own battle reports.

[Harley]

Someone should probably tell GW that they are playing their game wrong in their own battle reports.

Haha and tell Path Walker and Mr Mystery their strict RAW interpretation isn't logical.

The core book doesn't say you have to deploy it within 2". It says deploy in coherency. A unit within a transport is in unit coherency.

The 2" rule is only valid during the movement phase after the game has begun.

[Allen Broussard]

If you place a transport down on the table and say the unit is in it, the IC can be attatched to the unit. There is litterally nothing stopping this.


The IC rule about deploying in coherency is not broken by doing this. This is because there is nothing stated that units must be placed one at a time.

The only conflict with IC's deploying in coherency happens when you deploy an IC with infiltrate to another unit trying to give them infiltrate, since that happens at clearly different times.

[Charon]

Someone should probably tell GW that they are playing their game wrong in their own battle reports.

Which is a common issue in these reports.

[JMichael]

the german BRB specially says (on page 82) that indepent characters can infact join units in dedicated transports.

Same page in the English BRB, the 'Dedicated Transports' box.
"...when it is deployed it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it)."
So clearly you can join and IC to a unit that is being deployed in a Dedicated transport. How about this way: Attach IC to unit->Deploy Dedicated transport with unit (and attached IC) inside of it.

I also don't' see anywhere that states you place one unit at a time. If you insist on this them provide a page ref please!
Standard Deployment Method on p132 just says you 'set up all the units in your army'. I can't find any instructions on specifics.

[Caitsidhe]

Same page in the English BRB, the 'Dedicated Transports' box.
"...when it is deployed it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it)."
So clearly you can join and IC to a unit that is being deployed in a Dedicated transport. How about this way: Attach IC to unit->Deploy Dedicated transport with unit (and attached IC) inside of it.

I also don't' see anywhere that states you place one unit at a time. If you insist on this them provide a page ref please!
Standard Deployment Method on p132 just says you 'set up all the units in your army'. I can't find any instructions on specifics.

I think you cleared the issue up gangbusters. I thought that is what I had read too, but you beat me to going and finding it to post here.

[Mr Mystery]

Here we go again.........

In order for an IC to begin the game attached to a unit, you have two options.

1. Deploy both onto the board, the IC within coherency (typically 2"). They then count as a single unit from the get go.

2. Declare the IC is joining the unit in Reserves. This can have a third element of a dedicated transport (for either really, should an IC ever have access to a DT themselves).

That's it.

Until the IC has joined the unit in one of those two fashions, he is not part of the unit. So in the first instance, he cannot enter the DT to join the unit, as it can only carry it's parent unit, which he would have to be deployed in coherency of in order to join.

Thems the rules folks.

Anything else, ask GW for an FAQ. I agree they should be able to, but RAW, and without shonky reading demonstrates it can only be done if all three elements are held in reserve, neatly taking care of JMichael's point.

*Also, totally wrong about the one at a time thing. Hangover from Warhammer that, apologies. Rest is under the rules for IC and DT.

[Allen Broussard]

So Mr. Mystery, your going to completely ignore the quote straight out the rulebook that allows it?

its right above your post btw.

[JMichael]

I'm going to add some page ref here and the text so we all can look this up. I will paraphrase the text a little.

Lets forget about allies here and just focus on same army (SM Captain attached to 5man Tactical squad wanting to deploy together in a Rhino).

Independant Characters p166
-"An IC can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency or, if the unit is in Reserves, by informing your opponent which unit it has joined."

Dedicated Transports p82
"The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any ICs that have joined it)."

Deployment p132
"Models can be deployed 'inside' of buildings, fortifications, or Transport vehicles in their deployment zone..."

Reserves p135
Combined Reserve Units: During deployment when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the ICs in Reserves are joining a unit..."


So perhaps this does 'need' an FAQ. The only place it mentions an IC can be with a unit in the transport is under Dedicated Transports, but it doesn't give a rule that specifically states how to do this. And if you want to play it like that, then an IC also couldn't start attached to a unit in ANY transport, Dedicated or not.

By the way, neither did 6th edition or the Errata/FAQ for 6th. The wording in 6th for ICs and joining/deploying with a unit is pretty much exactly the same.
Also, aren't all models deployed in a vehicle considered to be in coherency?

I've never heard of anyone actually arguing this before. I think the 'Deployment' sentence is pretty clear, even if as a RAI.

[LCS]

Dedicated Transports p82
"The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any ICs that have joined it)."

What about this is confusing to people? There is absolutely zero rules ambiguity here. A Dedicated transport may only carry the unit it was selected for, plus any ICs that have been attached to said unit. What about this is troubling to people?

[JMichael]

Dedicated Transports p82
"The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any ICs that have joined it)."

What about this is confusing to people? There is absolutely zero rules ambiguity here. A Dedicated transport may only carry the unit it was selected for, plus any ICs that have been attached to said unit. What about this is troubling to people?

Agreed.
But the interesting point I think is that there is no way (in the rulebook) to actually attach the IC to the unit other than Reserves or within Unit Coherency.

I would argue that you deploy the transport separately (as it is a unit by itself) then deploy the unit and IC inside, thus the Unit Coherency rule is met.
Again it was the same working in 6th edition and there was never any question or need for FAQ.

If anyone in our local group tried to argue that an IC couldn't be deployed with a unit in a transport...well they wouldn't be very welcome at our events anymore!

[Harley]

The first paragraph under "Joining and leaving a unit" for independent characters is clear that the IC need only be in coherency which being in a transport with a squad satisfies.

Otherwise we would all need to be taking dangerous terrain checks on vehicles deployed in terrain before the first turn.

[RGilbert26]

Eh? I thought this issue was resolved on these forums when 7th came out?

[John Bower]

I can't even understand where the stupid argument stems from; you would have as Mr Mystery said to deploy 'one unit at a time' to cause the problem; since that is not the case you deploy the transport; say 'these guys and this IC are in it' and job done; rules satisfied for the following reasons:

1/ is the unit deployed? Technically yes; it's in its transport
2/ is the IC in coherency with them? Yes, in the transport as per the dedicated transport rules.

[Lord Krungharr]

Hooray! Page 82 saves the day, and Kharn and Huron can still ride with my Khorne Terminators in their Land Raider (and all Infiltrate if I get lucky on the D3 :) ).

[John Bower]

Hooray! Page 82 saves the day, and Kharn and Huron can still ride with my Khorne Terminators in their Land Raider (and all Infiltrate if I get lucky on the D3 :) ).

Page 82? How? I don't have my BRB handy and to be honest I'm feeling a bit lazy tonight so please enlighten me... :)

[Charistoph]

I'm going to add some page ref here and the text so we all can look this up. I will paraphrase the text a little.

Lets forget about allies here and just focus on same army (SM Captain attached to 5man Tactical squad wanting to deploy together in a Rhino).

Independant Characters p166
-"An IC can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherency or, if the unit is in Reserves, by informing your opponent which unit it has joined."

Dedicated Transports p82
"The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any ICs that have joined it)."

Deployment p132
"Models can be deployed 'inside' of buildings, fortifications, or Transport vehicles in their deployment zone..."

Reserves p135
Combined Reserve Units: During deployment when deciding which units are kept as Reserves, you must specify if any of the ICs in Reserves are joining a unit..."


So perhaps this does 'need' an FAQ. The only place it mentions an IC can be with a unit in the transport is under Dedicated Transports, but it doesn't give a rule that specifically states how to do this. And if you want to play it like that, then an IC also couldn't start attached to a unit in ANY transport, Dedicated or not.

By the way, neither did 6th edition or the Errata/FAQ for 6th. The wording in 6th for ICs and joining/deploying with a unit is pretty much exactly the same.
Also, aren't all models deployed in a vehicle considered to be in coherency?

I've never heard of anyone actually arguing this before. I think the 'Deployment' sentence is pretty clear, even if as a RAI.

You forgot to add:
INDEPENDENT CHARACTERS & TRANSPORTS (sorry, ebook version being looked up)
-"If an Independent Character (or even more than one) and a unit are both embarked upon the same vehicle, they are automatically joined, just as if the Independent Character was within 2" of the unit."

Being in a Transport counts as being in Coherency. So deploying an IC in to a Transport IS deploying in to coherency with a mounted unit.

[Da Gargoyle]

So, yes an IC can deploy in a transport attached to the unit who owns it, either in the deployment zone or in reserve. However, the point of the original post seems to have been lost; Can an IC deploy in a dedicated transport from aBB force. I think not.

[Allen Broussard]

So, yes an IC can deploy in a transport attached to the unit who owns it, either in the deployment zone or in reserve. However, the point of the original post seems to have been lost; Can an IC deploy in a dedicated transport from aBB force. I think not.


Whats confusing about it?

Battle brothers can now, with no doubt, ride in allied transports and attatch to squads (if they are IC's).

[Path Walker]

This is all very well (if you move the IC into the transport, he joins the squad) but, There is NO way to deploy in the deployment phase, using the rules, an IC in a dedicated transport, because of the order of events.
I love this argument because it shows who RAW isn't worth following because its clear to most people, Mystery included I'm sure, what is intended by these rules. But, as it is, he's correct.

This is because of the interaction of these two rules.

1. You can ONLY join an IC to a unit at deployment in 2 ways, by DEPLOYING within 2" on the battlefield or by putting both the unit and the IC in Reserves and telling your opponent that you've joined them.

2. A dedicated transport can ONLY contain the unit that purchased it.

This shows that there are only 2 ways to attach an IC to a unit before the start of the game, deploying next to it or being in Reserves with it.

The pg 82 rule says that only a unit and any IC attached to it can start in a Dedicated transport, which is fine for a unit in Reserves with an IC, but, under the rules for joining a unit at deployment, you can't attach an IC to a Unit thats in a dedicated transport, the IC can't deploy in the transport because he isn't part of the unit.

To make the IC part of the unit and thus allow him to start within a dedicated transport, you have to DEPLOY within 2" of it, and, as the IC can't Deploy into a dedicated transport that wasn't bought for it, and the IC isn't part of the unit until it moves into the Dedicated transport you can't put him in the transport until the movement phase of your Turn 1.

Unless you put them in Reserves.

[marful]

I love this argument because it shows who RAW isn't worth following because its clear to most people, Mystery included I'm sure, what is intended by these rules.
GW is probably the worst game company for writing rules that say one thing and mean another. Do you remember the whole "Zero is not a number" debate?


The pg 82 rule says that only a unit and any IC attached to it can start in a Dedicated transport, which is fine for a unit in Reserves with an IC, but, under the rules for joining a unit at deployment, you can't attach an IC to a Unit thats in a dedicated transport, the IC can't deploy in the transport because he isn't part of the unit.

To make the IC part of the unit and thus allow him to start within a dedicated transport, you have to DEPLOY within 2" of it, and, as the IC can't Deploy into a dedicated transport that wasn't bought for it, and the IC isn't part of the unit until it moves into the Dedicated transport you can't put him in the transport until the movement phase of your Turn 1.

Unless you put them in Reserves.
The relevant Rules:

Page 81 under "Independent Characters & Transports":

If an Independent Character (or even more than one) and a unit are both embarked upon the same vehicle, they are automatically joined, just as if the Independent Character was within 2" of the unit.

Page 82 under "Dedicated Transports":

The only limitation of a Dedicated Transport is that when it is deployed, it can only carry the unit it was selected with (plus any Independent Characters that have joined it).

Page 166 under Independent Character under "Joining and Leaving a Unit":

An Independent Character can begin the game already with a unit, either by being deployed in unit coherence with it, or if the unit is in Reserve, by informing your opponent of which unit it has joined.

If we evaluate the premise that "Deployment" happens before the game begins, then we run into the problem that no Independent Character can EVER deploy in a dedicated transport with a Unit.

The rule on page 82 under "Dedicated Transports" is self contradictory; if the only way for an Independent Character to join a unit in a dedicated transport is as soon as the game begins and only Independent Characters that are already with the unit when it is deployed (which we are assuming under this premise occurs before the game begins) then there is no point to the secondary clause of the rule in question as the conditions for it's existence can never occur.

The only way for this rule to not contradict itself is if we discard the premise that "Deployment" occurs before the game begins.


Once we discard that premise and accept that "Deployment" is part of the beginning of the game, then the rule on Page 82 no longer contradicts itself. Suddenly, Independent Characters can join units embarked on transports and thus deploy with them, satisfying the rules on Page 81 (Independent Characters & Transports) as well as satisfying the rules for Independent Character (Joining and Leaving a Unit).


It should be noted that the BRB does not state when exactly the "Game Begins" and whether "Deployment" occurs before or after, but clearly if we assume that it occurs before, certain parts of the game break, as well as rules become self contradictory.