D Weapons and Serpent Shields

[40kGamer]

Just learned to love Eldar Titan Holofields! Forcing the opponent to roll to see what they hit is super sweet! Now I'm trying to figure out how D Weapons interact with Serpent Shields? Does the Serpent Shield Downgrade the D weapon damage to 1 glance on a 2+?

[mordecai]

Short of a 6 on the D damage table, it would become a glance that does D3 hull points. I couldn't see any justification for altering that penalty, though.

[40kGamer]

Short of a 6 on the D damage table, it would become a glance that does D3 hull points. I couldn't see any justification for altering that penalty, though.

It's reasonable that there would still be D3 hull points lost on the 2-5 and the 6 would bypass the shield. It does seem that someone could argue that the shield knocks it down to a single glance as it is technically 1 auto-Pen doing the damage. I'm asking as I'm going to try running a D weapon in an upcoming game and I'm trying to think through the arguments I'm likely to hear.

[JMichael]

If you roll a 2+ for the Serpent Shield to downgrade the Pen to a Glance you never get to roll on the damage chart. So I think a Destroyer Glance is still only -1 Hull Point. Unless there is a rule that specifically states that Destroyer Weapons cause -D3 Hull Points on a Glance.

Roll to hit
Roll to Pen
>Serpent Shield roll
If Shield failed, THEN roll on the damage chart.

It kind of interrupts the steps as you also can't decide to use the Serpent Shield after the damage as been rolled (to see if the result would be bad enough, etc).

[Caitsidhe]

I think it is difficult to say really. It is impossible to predict when Errata and Faqs will appear or which way Games Workshop will rule. They are inconsistent every single time, i.e. consistent in their inconsistency. :D I've learned to never underestimate their inability to make a rule clear or contradict themselves later.

[40kGamer]

If you roll a 2+ for the Serpent Shield to downgrade the Pen to a Glance you never get to roll on the damage chart. So I think a Destroyer Glance is still only -1 Hull Point. Unless there is a rule that specifically states that Destroyer Weapons cause -D3 Hull Points on a Glance.

That would be amazing at keeping things alive vs a D weapon! I think I'll ask the TO's at the events I'm going to how they want to rule. Serpent shields could really hamstring the big guns!


I think it is difficult to say really. It is impossible to predict when Errata and Faqs will appear or which way Games Workshop will rule. They are inconsistent every single time, i.e. consistent in their inconsistency. :D I've learned to never underestimate their inability to make a rule clear or contradict themselves later.

With you there! Even when it seems blatantly obvious which way something should go GW has the ability to surprise you with an official ruling! :)

[JMichael]

Interestingly that in my group I play Eldar and am one of the only players with Destroyer Weapons anyway (Scorpion & Lynx).
I think if the Serpent Shield downgrading a Destroyer Pen seems too overpowered then a good compromise may be that it only does so on a 4+ vs Str D.
To have it stilol glance and deal D3, means it could destroy the tank on a single glance! That is a bit too much imho.

[40kGamer]

Interestingly that in my group I play Eldar and am one of the only players with Destroyer Weapons anyway (Scorpion & Lynx).
I think if the Serpent Shield downgrading a Destroyer Pen seems too overpowered then a good compromise may be that it only does so on a 4+ vs Str D.
To have it stilol glance and deal D3, means it could destroy the tank on a single glance! That is a bit too much imho.

Same here! There's agood chance I may meet some other Eldar players at local events this yea so I thought I' try to figure out how these things should work ahead of time! Since the Scorpion's main gun is Heavy 2 5" blast can it fire at two separate targets each turn? If it can I've been playing it wrong and it isn't a big a points sin as I originally thought! :)

[DWest]

Super-heavies can fire each weapon at a different target, so both shots of your Heavy 2 gun have to go at a different unit, but anything else can be fired somewhere else.

[JMichael]

DWest is right (though mistype).
Rulebook p94 under 'Shooting'. So both shots from the Pulsar must be at the same target. Of course you can place the center of the large blast marker anywhere on the target, so you may be able to get multiple units/vehicles if they are close enough. And the 'secondary' targets can't take decide to Jink from that shot!

[40kGamer]

So you resolve the 2 blasts independently? That way you can get 2 hits on the same target?

[JMichael]

So you resolve the 2 blasts independently? That way you can get 2 hits on the same target?

Yup, Rulebook p158.
You roll 2 scatter shots and add up the total hits from both shots. Then you total up the total hits on each unit and roll To Wound (and I assume Penetration rolls too).
And remember that the Scorpion's Pulsar is Twin-Linked so you can re-roll to hit with both shots!

[40kGamer]

Yup, Rulebook p158.
You roll 2 scatter shots and add up the total hits from both shots. Then you total up the total hits on each unit and roll To Wound (and I assume Penetration rolls too).
And remember that the Scorpion's Pulsar is Twin-Linked so you can re-roll to hit with both shots!

Thanks mate! It would have been nice to go after 2 targets but being able to concentrate fire at another superheavy or MC is still a big plus. Especially those pesky Knights that are popping up everywhere!

[Tynskel]

Hmmmm...

I think the Serpent Shield gives a significant advantage that is unintended by the D-Weapon rules.
D Weapons are supposed to obliterate stuff to little tiny bits. I can imagine the Serpent Shield downgrading to a glance, but ignoring the D3 hull points? I think not. Only Invulnerables have the capability of doing that.

[40kGamer]

Hmmmm...

I think the Serpent Shield gives a significant advantage that is unintended by the D-Weapon rules.
D Weapons are supposed to obliterate stuff to little tiny bits. I can imagine the Serpent Shield downgrading to a glance, but ignoring the D3 hull points? I think not. Only Invulnerables have the capability of doing that.

Yes sir. Local TO's ruled 2-5 can be downgraded to d3 glances and 6 bypasses shield altogether. Seems like a good interpretation as otherwise Serpents just laugh off D weapons. :)

[John Bower]

I'd have said if it knocks it down to a glance then... It's a single glance; end of. The D3 hits is caused by a penetrating hit no less. Any glancing hit is still just a glancing hit surely?

[DarkLink]

But by that logic then the serpent shield can downgrade the immobilized result from grav guns.

If the D's d3 hits results from a roll on the penetration vehicle damage table, the shield blocks it. If it is anadditional effect of the weapon rather than a result on said damage table, the shield does nothing for you.

[John Bower]

But by that logic then the serpent shield can downgrade the immobilized result from grav guns.

If the D's d3 hits results from a roll on the penetration vehicle damage table, the shield blocks it. If it is anadditional effect of the weapon rather than a result on said damage table, the shield does nothing for you.

But D weapons are not like grav weapons; grav guns don't use the damage table at all. Destroyer weapons do extra damage due to the extra punch they push in, which surely a shield is supposed to stop? What is the exact wording of the Serpent Shield rule? If it says simply 'reduces a penetrating hit to a glancing hit' then if it is a 2-5 on the D weapon chart you have your answer; a 6 will likely just punch right through like it is meant to do as that ignores invulns; cover or just about any other save you can think of. But a 2-5 is for all intents and purposes a normal pen hit; why do you think GW nerfed D weapons like that? It's so things like this can stop them working properly and your uber expensive FW kit doesn't go 'bang' on the first turn.

[Krefey]

Short of a 6 on the D damage table, it would become a glance that does D3 hull points. I couldn't see any justification for altering that penalty, though.

This seems the most straightforward option to me.


Super-heavies can fire each weapon at a different target, so both shots of your Heavy 2 gun have to go at a different unit, but anything else can be fired somewhere else.

As JMichael stated, any individual weapon will have to fire all shots at the same target unit. You can't split the two shots from a single pulsar at different units.

- - - Updated - - -


Yes sir. Local TO's ruled 2-5 can be downgraded to d3 glances and 6 bypasses shield altogether. Seems like a good interpretation as otherwise Serpents just laugh off D weapons. :)

This also seems fair to me as well on reflection.

[DarkLink]

But D weapons are not like grav weapons; grav guns don't use the damage table at all.

Completely missing the point.



Destroyer weapons do extra damage due to the extra punch they push in, which surely a shield is supposed to stop?

The only thing the shield stops is "penetrating hits". If the d3 extra hull points is tied to penetrating hits, then the shield stops it. If it is simply an effect of being struck by a Str D weapon, the shield does absolutely nothing.



What is the exact wording of the Serpent Shield rule?

It "reduces a penetrating hit to a glancing hit". That means you have to specifically do a penetrating hit, and that the extra d3 has to be tied to said penetrating hit. If either of those two is untrue, then the shield is irrelevant.



If it says simply 'reduces a penetrating hit to a glancing hit' then if it is a 2-5 on the D weapon chart you have your answer; a 6 will likely just punch right through like it is meant to do as that ignores invulns; cover or just about any other save you can think of.

This is actually completely incorrect. A 6 only ignores saves. The Serpent Shield is not a save, rolling a 6 would have no effect on the shield. And rolling on the "D weapon chart" is only relevant if that counts as a penetrating hit.



But a 2-5 is for all intents and purposes a normal pen hit

Is it? I don't have the book in front of me. If you want to argue that point, quote the rule. Pontificating on how you think it should work is irrelevant. What matters is what the rules actually say.



why do you think GW nerfed D weapons like that? It's so things like this can stop them working properly and your uber expensive FW kit doesn't go 'bang' on the first turn.

There are a lot of reasons GW might nerf something, none of which are explicitly known to us and none of which are particularly relevant to what the rules actually are.

[DWest]

As JMichael stated, any individual weapon will have to fire all shots at the same target unit. You can't split the two shots from a single pulsar at different units.

O_o I meant to type "same unit" there, I honestly didn't see that I had put the wrong thing till now. Apologies.

[John Bower]

The only thing the shield stops is "penetrating hits". If the d3 extra hull points is tied to penetrating hits, then the shield stops it. If it is simply an effect of being struck by a Str D weapon, the shield does absolutely nothing.[/COLOR]
.

Okay, so it reduces it to a glance; what point? If it still does D3 Hull points; and this is on a titan which apart from 'explodes' pretty much ignores the damage table anyhow; what would be the point of reducing it? Makes far more sense for a pen to do the D3 hull points for being a D weapon; and the glance to do the normal 1 as it's been slowed down stupidly, it's yield seriously reduced. Unless you get a 6 which should still ignore the serpent shield.

[DarkLink]

It only reduced penetrating hits, and nothing more. If the D3 is specifically the result of a D weapon causing a penetrating hit and a penetrating hit only, then and only then does the shield do anything. That's what the shield does, nothing more and nothing less. If the D3 is not specifically the result of a pen, then the shield has zero effect on it.

The shield is already a very powerful rule with plenty of purpose, or whatever nebulous poetry you can attribute its existence to. It's not like it becomes completely useless if there's one gun that can bypass it.

But, again, I don't have the rules for Str D in front of me.

[DR.V]

So the Destroyer weapon rule says to roll to hit as normal and then if the attack hits roll on the d-weapon table instead of rolling to wound or for armour pen. So in my opinion since you do not roll to see if you pen then the shield does not work, But 2-5 is a Penetrating hit that causes you to lose D3 hull points instead of 1. So I can see it both ways I gess it is up to the TO at your FLGS until GW does a FAQ.

[JMichael]

Thanks for this thread, it forced me to really read up on the Destroyer weapons. I have not yet faced them with my Eldar, but am now better prepared.
Important note that the table is not a damage table. But is called the 'Destroyer Weapon Attack Table'.
On that table, if you are shooting at a Wave Serpent and roll a 2-5 or a 6 you still have to roll on the vehicle damage table in addition to loosing the hull points, correct?
Then if you make your Serpent Shield roll to reduce the Pen to a Glance vs the Solid Hit or Devastating Hit you still suffer the d3 or d6+1 Hull Points but do not roll on the vehicle damage table.

As an Eldar Wave Serpent army player, I for one am totally okay with that! Makes sense and ensures I'll be Jinking around the board!

[40kGamer]

Thanks for this thread, it forced me to really read up on the Destroyer weapons. I have not yet faced them with my Eldar, but am now better prepared.
Important note that the table is not a damage table. But is called the 'Destroyer Weapon Attack Table'.
On that table, if you are shooting at a Wave Serpent and roll a 2-5 or a 6 you still have to roll on the vehicle damage table in addition to loosing the hull points, correct?
Then if you make your Serpent Shield roll to reduce the Pen to a Glance vs the Solid Hit or Devastating Hit you still suffer the d3 or d6+1 Hull Points but do not roll on the vehicle damage table.

As an Eldar Wave Serpent army player, I for one am totally okay with that! Makes sense and ensures I'll be Jinking around the board!

:) Always love to walk through uncommon rules interactions! It helps to have a clear idea of what makes sense before it comes up at the pivotal moment in a game.

[Allen Broussard]

This is the exact sequence for a destroyer hit on a wave serpent.

Pick target. Opponent can elect to jink.
Roll scatter. Determine "models" hit.
If wave serpent is hit, Roll on destroyer table.
For result 1, nothing happens. For result 2-5, roll jink save. For result 6, roll on the damage table once for the penetrating hit with a +1 modifier to see if explodes.
If jink save is passed, nothing happens. If jink save is failed the wave serpent is penetrated and looses an additional D3 hull points. You may roll serpent shield to downgrade the pen to a glance. Either way the serpent is going to loose 2-4 hull points.
If the serpent was removed and had passengers inside, roll for either explosion or emergency disembarkation.

[Charon]

Either way the serpent is going to loose 2-4 hull points.

And this is open to discussion.
If the d3 hullpoints are tied to the penetration (as it seems to indicate) you just lose 1 hp. If you lose d3 hp anyways (which is not in the ruletext) you lose 2 - 4

[40kGamer]

And this is open to discussion.
If the d3 hullpoints are tied to the penetration (as it seems to indicate) you just lose 1 hp. If you lose d3 hp anyways (which is not in the ruletext) you lose 2 - 4

Just reread the destroyer weapon attack table. I think it is open to interpretation as to what the 2-5 solid hit result does. On a 6 you're just flat out dead although the serpent shield isn't a save per se so someone could even argue that.

But going from the rules we have:

D Weapon Attack
"2-5 Solid Hit The model suffers a penetrating hit that causes it to lose D3 Hull points instead of 1"

Serpent shield
"All penetrating hits against front and side armour are downgraded to glancing on a D6 roll of 2+"

since a 2-5 is classed as a penetrating hit the shield should downgrade this to a glancing hit on a 2+. So the Wave serpent either loses 1 HP or d3 HP's to the glance but definitely not 2-4 as the pen causes d3 instead of 1 not 1+d3 in the first place.

I'm going to error on the side of caution and say the d3 HP loss on the glance is reasonable but this isn't written in blood. :)

[John Bower]

Ah but that would mean if you roll a '3' the Wave serpents shield did nothing for it; they only have 3 hull points which would make the shield null and void; great from the PoV of anyone going up against Eldar but a bit harsh don't you think? that the shield worked but did nothing for them?

Both my mate and I reckon its the same; downgrades to glancing and 1 HP damage; or it takes the pen if it fails and the D3 damage that goes with it. And on a 6... Boom! Gone. Shield may not technically be a save, but a true Destroyer 'hit' isn't a pen either; it's nuked, blown out of all memory and existence. Though interestingly Void shields do save whatever is under them. But I guess they are meant to stop starship class weaponry which is all Destroyer with no downgrades to 'penetrating', a single hit from an Emperor class battleship would remove even an Aquila strongpoint; automatically a '6' on the destroyer table.

[DarkLink]

D weapons are supposed to be powerful. Don't you think it's underwhelming that your giant super uber expensive weapon of mass destruction just bounces off a measley little wave serpent like it was nothing? You can make rules calls on subjective opinions like that.

[Charon]

D weapons are supposed to be powerful. Don't you think it's underwhelming that your giant super uber expensive weapon of mass destruction just bounces off a measley little wave serpent like it was nothing? You can make rules calls on subjective opinions like that.

Not really as it "bounces off" a very strong and technologically advanced shield. It doesnt even "bounce off" but still glance the vehicle beneath. Also there are 2 chances to completely ignore the shield AND the shield must be up.

[John Bower]

D weapons are supposed to be powerful. Don't you think it's underwhelming that your giant super uber expensive weapon of mass destruction just bounces off a measley little wave serpent like it was nothing? You can make rules calls on subjective opinions like that.

Would that be the uber expensive super weapon of destruction that doesn't even ignore cover saves in 7th ed except on a roll of a 6...? Remember they used to be far more potent in 6th ed and Apocalypse but people didn't like them in normal games so GW in their greedy wisdom nerfed the heck out of them.

[DarkLink]

Not really as it "bounces off" a very strong and technologically advanced shield. It doesnt even "bounce off" but still glance the vehicle beneath. Also there are 2 chances to completely ignore the shield AND the shield must be up.

My point is, this is arbitrary. You can make up whatever non-rules argument you want, but it's not really relevant to what the rules say, and it often only gets in the way of your ability to understand the rules.

[Tynskel]

My point is, this is arbitrary. You can make up whatever non-rules argument you want, but it's not really relevant to what the rules say, and it often only gets in the way of your ability to understand the rules.

It looks like D3 hull points occurs no matter what.

The hull point loss in addition to the penetration. You always lose 1 HP whether you are penetrated or not.
The D3HP loss replaces the 1HP loss.