Daboarder's Chaos Terminator List Tactics

[daboarder]

G'Day all,

Today I would like to present to you the start a series of articles that cover the how's the to's and the what's of running a chaos space marine terminator list, both bound and unbound.
Now the first thing to do is define what I am talking about when I say "terminator list". For the purpose of these articles I am talking about a list that runs almost no power armour and is based around a core of Chaos space marine Terminator squads.
So what do I determine a chaos terminator list to include? It should include the hardest, toughest, most brutish equipment available to us, the true shock and awe game style. Obviously anything in terminator armour, but we are chaos and that is far from the end of the such a conversation so I am going to break the units I will discuss into "Core" "Optional/Special" and "Obscure" categories. These will discuss units based on how relevant I feel they are to the general theme of such a list. I will include a short justification for why I think each unit fits the theme.

The Core units:

Chaos Space Marine Terminators: Obvious

Lords and Sorcerers in terminator armour: Again obvious

Obliterators: Let's be honest, these are giant corrupted terminator heavy support options and their rules reflect that with their 2+/5++ saves and Slow and Purposeful.

Mutilators: Like the Obliterators but the Choppy variant. Myself, I have always kinda thought of these guys as the Chaos equivalent of Grey Knight Paladins or Space wolf Lone Wolves, Exalted Aspiring Champions, one step below the Lords of the host.

Helbrutes: Dreadnoughts have always gone hand in hand with the terminator concept, therefore it should come as no surprise that they fit into the Chaos variant of that concept as well.

Land Raider: Like the Dreadnought the Land Raider is also synonymous with the Terminator List concept.

Thats a pretty solid core of options for any Terminator themed list, hell Death wing players would probably sell a kidney (someone else's of course) just to have heavy support terminator options, (though I'd probably trade them for a pod option for my brutes or a land raider that I could put 7 Terminators in.) But it's not the be all and end all of units that fit into a terminator list available to Chaos.


Optional/Special:
So now we have what I deem the "optional" Units that I feel fit the theme but aren't necessary to it and can be included or ignored depending on the background concept the individual is intending to craft.

Heldrakes: Not only is this thing pretty brutal (even with the turret nerf) but it is also basically one of the toughest fliers in the game, and only got tougher this edition. To me the Heldrake has always been reminiscent of the A-10 Warthog, and if any flier could be said to embody the theme of a terminator list and the principles of Shock and Awe it's this beautiful son of a *****.

Fiends: Like the heldrake these guys are brutally tough models with their 5++ invuls and IWND. Furthermore they operate as a platform for some of our biggest guns/Punches, again that kinda screams shock and awe to me.

Defiler: A helbrute on roids (or daemonic essence but whatever) Like all the daemon engines I fill that this model fits well into the concept of what I can see Chaos Terminator lists marching to war alongside.

Decimator: What more needs to be said?

Special Characters in Terminator armour: Much like the ordinary characters, any special character rocking terminator armour would fit well into this theme.

Obscure:
This category is going to cover units that might not appear to readily fit the theme, but in my opinion can be used to really emphasize the difference between a Chaos Terminator force and an Imperial one.

Cultists: Ever read the Word Bearer books? well one of the strongest images that book gave me was the idea of a horde of cultists assaulting a loyalist position. at the peak of the battle the Chaos Space Marines show up in their terminator plate to drive home the hammer blow. I can really see chaos forces supplementing their Shock assaults with cultist waves for a number of reasons, ranging from sacrifice, obscurement or just because they feel that the cultists deserve to die.

Zombies: Like the above but instead with a distinctly Nurgle idea., Spread the Rot!

2+/++ Characters: This is where the definition of terminator gets pretty vague. See because GW has decided in their infinite wisdom that we CANNOT have actual options for our support HQ's none of them have access to terminator armour (but its balance or something like that isnt it :rolleyes:
However if we are a little liberal with our imagination and take the appropriate items we can make "Psuedo" Terminators, wargear combinations that can be easily represented by a model in terminator armour. such as a Warpsmith with and invul save, or a Dark Apostle with the Daemonheart. These options and few other such obscure ideas will be discussed in this section.

Thank you for reading my intro, please check back in a few days to see the first entry, Chaos Terminato Squads.

[Caitsidhe]

I've never been a fan of trying to run CSM Terminator armies because our Termies, sadly, are usually quite inferior per cost to the Imperial version. The issue is the lack of access to Storm Shields (for one thing). I'm keen to run some Fallen Termies (all Chaos'd up) via an allied Detachment. That is a horse of a different color.

In general I use three man Termicide units, stripped down and loaded only with Combi-Melta upgrades. Still, with 7th Edition, I'm willing to look at the possibilities again (particularly with that allied detachment of thematic Termies I can include). One advantage that CSM Terminators can apply is guaranteed Infiltrate on at least 1 (D3) unit. A unit of Terminators in a dedicated Land Raider which has been infiltrated forward on to a Skyshield to provide it the 4+ Invulnerable save has an excellent chance of delivering its cargo to a 1st Turn (assuming you go second) Assault. Your Warlord pretty much has to be Huron in this case.

Given the Meta I would still want plenty of Combi-Meltas in there due to the Super Heavies. I might even load up on Chain Fists. A Heavy Flamer would be nice too. The issue, of course, is the necessity of getting into combat fast or get blasted off the board by volume of fire. The Mark of Nurgle seems the most effective to me. If you were gearing up for the 1st Turn assault, the Dimensional Key stuck on an HQ in the Land Raider could ensure that the rest of your reserves (if you wanted to go with a bunch more Termies) all hit with pinpoint accuracy.

There are a lot of gambles in such a list, although I think you can minimize a fair amount. The problem for CSM, as always, is cost. A Land Raider stacked with Termies and an HQ and launched from a Skyshield is not cheap. Your Warlord will be Huron (who is a bargain) but you will want one of your combined arms detachments to be bringing Be'Lakor so you have the option of making key units invisible. Your Termies will NEED that edge if they have to fight opposing Terminators. Sad but true.

[daboarder]

I've never been a fan of trying to run CSM Terminator armies because our Termies, sadly, are usually quite inferior per cost to the Imperial version. The issue is the lack of access to Storm Shields (for one thing). I'm keen to run some Fallen Termies (all Chaos'd up) via an allied Detachment. That is a horse of a different color.


I actually disagree. I think our terminators are far better suited to being used as the core for a themed list, and in general better off than the loyalist variants. I will elaborate more when I do the in depth post, but our terminators are far more points efficient than the opponents ones, even taking into account the lack or fearless.

Simple example: For the price of 5 loyalist terminators with a cyclone missile launcher, I can get 7 Nurgle terminators, that isn't much for a single squad sure, but take that into account over an army (say 3 terminator squads) thats an extra 6 terminators.
Furthermore as you can see above we have access to more support options that also fit the theme than loyalists and that makes a HUGE difference. To us terminators are the meat but to loyalists they must necessarily be the whole meal.

[Caitsidhe]

Well I will read what you post and consider it. I've made many attempts at using CSM Termies over the years (I own a lot of them due to trades) and found that time and time again that they just die in droves. The best we can get is a 4+ Invulnerable save (and that is going Tzentch of course) which simply can't compare to a 2+/3+ our opponents get. When fighting Imperial Terminators they simply lose time and time again. Against normal ranks and file their inferior Invul save kills them to volume of special fire. I'll keep an open mind and I hope you do demonstrate something different I haven't thought of or tried.

[Captain Bubonicus]

Well I will read what you post and consider it. I've made many attempts at using CSM Termies over the years (I own a lot of them due to trades) and found that time and time again that they just die in droves. The best we can get is a 4+ Invulnerable save (and that is going Tzentch of course) which simply can't compare to a 2+/3+ our opponents get. When fighting Imperial Terminators they simply lose time and time again. Against normal ranks and file their inferior Invul save kills them to volume of special fire. I'll keep an open mind and I hope you do demonstrate something different I haven't thought of or tried.

^^^This.

[DaveTycho]

Here is my opinion of Chaos Termie weapon load outs: combi-weapons; an even mix of combi-flamers and combi-meltas for taking on all comers. If you can't get an even mix, have meltas the majority. Close combat weapons should be at least (in 5 man teams, in 10 men teams double this) one power fist, one chain fist; the rest should be armed with POWER SWORDS. Power axes and mauls are useless in this case and I'll tell you why. Everything you can do with axes/mauls you can do better with fists. If Chaos Termies couldn't field several fists on the cheap then axes/mauls would be fine. As it stands with the swords and fists combo you can have the sword guys strike at their normal I value and kill some guys, hopefully with random allocation or careful deployment take the brunt of the wounds and the fist guys then finish off everyone else. Basically what made Chaos Termies great in combat pre 6th ed before you realised that you need to chop off your axes/mauls from your models just to make them good again. Power axes are a poor mans power fist and since, like I said, Chaos Termies can field many fists for a cheap +7pts, why would you not fists? Mauls are interesting, giving Termies st6 attacks at I4 with concussive. The problem is that a Terminator isn't worth it if it's not wielding a CC weapon that negates power armour, which the maul can't. Also while the concussive could give the unit the edge against monsters, usually said monster would have already struck before the maul Termie gets his shots in, and usually said monster would have at least a 3+ as well compared to the maul's AP4. The sword and fist combo is, I feel, the only one worth a damn, which is annoying since the box doesn't include any sword arms!
You could go with lighting claws instead of swords, which is actually not that bad considering they're +3pts, but that means sourcing up lighting claw arms from somewhere. Heavy weapons can depend on personal taste, although heavy flamers are good if you want lots of combi-meltas. If you have 10 man teams then one heavy flamer and one reaper auto cannon is fine. With Termie Champs, it's probably one of the few times I'd consider giving a Champ a power fist as 2+/5++ saves would keep him alive in a challenge long enough to fight back. Marks of Chaos and VotLW are players discretion, but for me it's Mark of Khorne just because I like him

[Denzark]

I like the idea of an all Terminator force and actually, had not considered Mutilators and Obliterators in this mix - I think this is pretty cool. Whilst I see where DAB is going with 'Heldrake = A-10 therefore is terminator hard' I think a purist would stick to just walking bodies or dedicated terminator transports.

So, no drakes, zombies or any of that gash. Every boot on the ground should be 2+/5++. Vehicles - LR, and I believe Chaos has a Spartan entry so you wouldn't need to go unbound? To stray slightly from theme, a Chaos Storm Raven can get them places quickly, and further from field a Caestus if you go unbound.

You need to consider strengths - so Khorne - mass attacks. Best with power fists. Slaanesh - I5. So best with Lightning Claws. Nurgle - T5. I'd probably only give this to Oblits. Tzeentch for extra invuln I am not convinced is worth it.

Remember you can get fearless from the Lord and, if he is Nurgle, he can't be instagibbed by less than S10, and also can take the excellent Blight grenades - meaning the attackers find it commensurately harder.

Staying in Force Org, you can ally with Black legion and get some uber-terminators - WS/BS 5.

Also bear in mind we talk of 3 man drop and pop - but what about DSing mass 10 man Squads with Combi Plasma/Melta? points heavy but if you are going pure terminator then this will be epic...

[daboarder]

I like the idea of an all Terminator force and actually, had not considered Mutilators and Obliterators in this mix - I think this is pretty cool. Whilst I see where DAB is going with 'Heldrake = A-10 therefore is terminator hard' I think a purist would stick to just walking bodies or dedicated terminator transports.

So, no drakes, zombies or any of that gash. Every boot on the ground should be 2+/5++. Vehicles - LR, and I believe Chaos has a Spartan entry so you wouldn't need to go unbound? To stray slightly from theme, a Chaos Storm Raven can get them places quickly, and further from field a Caestus if you go unbound.

You need to consider strengths - so Khorne - mass attacks. Best with power fists. Slaanesh - I5. So best with Lightning Claws. Nurgle - T5. I'd probably only give this to Oblits. Tzeentch for extra invuln I am not convinced is worth it.

Remember you can get fearless from the Lord and, if he is Nurgle, he can't be instagibbed by less than S10, and also can take the excellent Blight grenades - meaning the attackers find it commensurately harder.

Staying in Force Org, you can ally with Black legion and get some uber-terminators - WS/BS 5.

Also bear in mind we talk of 3 man drop and pop - but what about DSing mass 10 man Squads with Combi Plasma/Melta? points heavy but if you are going pure terminator then this will be epic...

Yeah forgot about the spartan, unfortunately though the latest rules suffer from chaos syndrome, it has the same spaz load-out as the normal land raider, Oh and because it doesnt have PotMS, it gets a 20 pts discount.....**** GW/FW

[Archaeinox]

daboarder, I'm just stopping in to say that this is a great writeup and I generally like most of your explanations of things all over the interwebs. I'm Phosis, I think we've had some discussion on Natfka's blog whenever Chaos rumors pop up.

I would like to add something, only because I use 5 Terminators every game for months, to go with Ahriman. Combi-plasma terminators with Axes (I have little tomb kings halberds for mine) are fine models to use for the points cost and I can always find a use for them regardless of opponent. The only thing that sucks is if a dread charges them.. but since anyone can take a Level 3 sorcerer with no Mark, there is a good chance that you can just move them around with Gate of Infinity so that not having a means to kill a walker is no biggie (for the most part).

Cheers bud!

[daboarder]

daboarder, I'm just stopping in to say that this is a great writeup and I generally like most of your explanations of things all over the interwebs. I'm Phosis, I think we've had some discussion on Natfka's blog whenever Chaos rumors pop up.

I would like to add something, only because I use 5 Terminators every game for months, to go with Ahriman. Combi-plasma terminators with Axes (I have little tomb kings halberds for mine) are fine models to use for the points cost and I can always find a use for them regardless of opponent. The only thing that sucks is if a dread charges them.. but since anyone can take a Level 3 sorcerer with no Mark, there is a good chance that you can just move them around with Gate of Infinity so that not having a means to kill a walker is no biggie (for the most part).

Cheers bud!

Cheers mate. Much appreciated.

Honesy comments lkke these and the others here are the reason I enjoy posting articles. Furthermore I think they highlight how varied peoples thoughts on chaos armies can be. And I find that a little I timidating whe I think about puttinh that info into a aingle post.

Expect the first post on terminators to go up some time today

[Mad Cat]

As a long term Deathguard player I have mixed feelings about an all terminator force. I do love my objective secured Plague Marines.
Back in 4th ed I did considder a termie army and bought the Apocalypse termie strike force they released several years ago (15 termies + termie Lord). Now that 7th edition allows termies to score as well as contest (except against troop choices) the idea of a Plaguewing force is much more appealing.

HQ: Typhus, Termie MoN Lord with claw & Brand
Elites: 3x7 Termies with MoN, Plenty of combi weapons and a mix of close combat weapons.
Troops: 1x30 Zombies and several other 10 strong zombie units
Fast: nope
Heavy: 2 or 3 pairs of Obliterators with MoN.

The Zombies are there to hold objectives being fearless and with FNP they are difficult to shift from cover especially when there are far more deadly termies deepstriking in the enemy's face and threatening a charge after combi-plasma spamming a unit to death on arrival. I don't feel too bad at including their unarmoured corpses in such a list. In orter to take them you must have Typhus and if he isn't the living embodiment of the Plaguewing. The Lord makes another unit fearless and gets I5 in challenges and of course the brand is great at shifting people from cover.

[daboarder]

Terminators:

Whoa boy, this is going to be a long one. (this was over 6 pages in word at font 11...you guys better appreciate it!)

Firstly I would like to re-enforce that this review/tactics is done with the idea of a chaos terminator list, one that has access to the sorts of units listed in the above post, and where terminators are the bulk of the list. therefore the way that I am going to propose for their use will obviously be different to their use and application in a regular chaos list.

Numbers: I'd say from my experience aiming for approximately 15-20 terminators is a good solid core. this should leave your standard 1500-1850 list with plenty of points to buy the support option that will help do the heavy lifting for the list.
Furthermore I feel that your squads should only really be taken in 3 styles.
Legion Phalanx: Like the legions of old these terminator squads are 10 men strong, throw in a pair of heavy weapons on these, it's an all your eggs in 1 basket, but there aren't many lists that can bring enough force to bear on such a small area to kill all the terminators. keep these units central and provide them with character support and they will prove a solid core to your force.
Warband Squads: 5-7 terminators. These squads are more in line with what you would expect to see in a terminator force, they should be 5 minimum to unlock the heavy weapon options. consider adding more men to the squad if you want it to focus on close combat, as then you can afford to lose a terminator or two before you hit the opponents lines. If you're going to use these guys as a retinue for your characters they can do with a few extra bodies again to before you lose combat effectiveness. squads these size really do need overlapping army support, don't stick a unit of terminators out on a flank and expect them to hold it by themselves, dont pull your punches and apply overwhelming force.
Termicide: 3 Terminators, usually loaded out to drop in behind enemy lines and nuke a target before wreaking whatever havoc they have in the time they have. These really are purely support units and should only ever be taken in addition to larger line units as they just don't have the staying power to make up the core of your force.

Equipment: So now we have numbers aside let's look at how to equip your terminators.

The basic Terminator comes with a Twin-linked bolter and generic power weapon, and in my opinion, as a squad loadout this is far superior to what the loyalists have with their storm bolters and Powerfist/Power sword. The reason for this belief is a combination of flexibility and price.

Twin-Linked Bolter: In my opinion these are superior to storm bolters. When taking into account a squad of these firing they are comparable to the storm bolters at a 12-24 range. They have less shots but each shot is far more likely to hit, meaning that statistically they are roughly the same. the storm bolter will however have increased potential damage at this range. At the 0-12 range the Twin-linked Bolter is clearly superior with its re-roll and same number of shots. Finally remember that bolters are actually a fairly solid weapon and in numbers are able to damage most units in the game.

Power Weapons: Generic Power weapons are great, and allow you to tailor your unit for the specific role that you want to use them for, each weapon offers a different advantage, and believe it or not I think all of them have their place (yes even the spear)
Sword: Generic all rounder, has Ap3 and strike at initiative. If you face a lot of opponents that run power armour or unwieldy weaponry then the sword is a good weapon because of its ability to strike at the same time of before anything that is likely to actually hurt you.
Maul: If you are worried about vehicles, or High toughness MCs that the other weapons just can't touch, then the maul is the power weapon for you, it works better on units that have a large number of attacks which compensate for its poor Ap value of 4. That being said it works hilariously good against xenos forces where its Ap is less of a drawback due to the limited access these armies typically have to 3+ sv's, and against certain armies the Maul is a death sentence to their expensive multi wound models with its S of 6/7 causing instant death with every hit.
Axe: Probably the most popular weapon, and definitely the best "all rounder" it is effective against almost all opponents with its +1S and Ap2. Most vehicles in the game have a rear armour of 10 and as such massed S5 attacks will HP them down in combat. Even against Loyalist Fist terminators the axe is a good choice, as it is likely to result in mutually assured destruction at the worst of times (and given our larger numbers that usually ends up as a win for us). I would definitely consider the axe to be the weapon of choice if you face a large number of 2+ Sv opponents, or you have decided to go down the "defensive" unit route (will be discussed later). However if you favour a more aggressive unit construction then the other weapons will probably serve you better.
Lance: I love the lance, as a concept, I just wish GW had made them more like the halberds that Grey Knights have access to instead of the weird hybrid Maul/Sword they work as. But let's not dwell on what could be. the lance has a place in a very specific style of terminator unit, namely hyper aggressive units that are able to maximize the potential benefits of the lance while minimizing its drawbacks.
With that in mind I think the Lance has a place on Slaanesh Terminators, for a nice S5/I5/Ap3, that are charging out of a land raider, where the raider largely ensures that the terminators are able to charge the unit they desire instead of getting counter charged and bogged down by chaff.
The other unit that Lances work well with is Khorne Terminators, giving them a bucket load of S6/Ap3 attacks on the charge, taking the Icon of wrath helps to ensure that they can pull off longer charges, also buffering them form counter charges by the opponents. Furthermore the addition of counter attack means that they have a respectable 3 attacks each when they unfortunately do get charged by chaff units.

Combi-Weapons: Brilliant weapons, for when you really need that opposing squad to die. combi-weapons are a great way to maximise the kill potential of a unit by ensuring that they can cut down what opposes them. Personally I am not a fan of mixing types. As I have pointed out, given that they are your line troops in this type of list, then your terminators should have a defined role and stick to it.
The combi-weapon I prefer is the plasma variant, able to menace any unit in the game the combi-plasma also has the range to actually ensure that it can be used before your start losing terminators (and the invested points). I particularly like the combi-plasma on Termicide squads, as I find it is considerably better than the meltagun, at all ranges combi-pasma's are more likely to do hull point damage to any vehicle that they can hurt than a melta gun volley will. furthermore, the melta gun's chance of exploding an vehicle has diminished this edition with the changes to the damage chart. When also taking into account that a termicide unit must be within 6 to make maximum effect of melta's compared to a safer and more flexible 12 for the plasma variants I feel that the plasma variants are significantly better for this technique.
The melta variant is better for Squads that either have the speed to close with the enemy fast (Khorne units) or are charging out of a transport, allowing them to engage an opposing transport before charging the occupants, thus allowing your support options to direct their fire elsewhere. Though be sure to fire the terminators first, in case they flubb, that way you can then fall back on your support options to kill the opposing vehicle.
Flamers are obviously great for clearing our infantry, and are even able to put out enough wounds to menace high save infantry. I consider these a more defensive option given their access to the wall of death special rules, as such they work rather well with units that you do not want to be charged and bogged down by chaff units, they therefore work best on foot slogging units that MUST get the charge (Lance) or units that are designed to hold ground (Nurgle).

Fists: like the Lightning claws, I will cover both Powerfists and Chainfists in this segment. In my opinion Fists should be treated similar to heavy weapons and only taken in limited numbers, they have too many drawbacks against foes to be taken on every single terminator (not to mention their cost). that being said, a Fist or two can act as a serious force multiplier in squads that are designed to get up in the enemies face. They work particularly well when combo'd with Lances, making up for the weakness of those weapons but not detracting from their strengths.
Chainfists themselves are really just overkill, unless you think you lack the support to deal with land raiders, monoliths and dreadnoughts then taking Chainfists is kind of a waste, as your army should have other units better able to deal with those targets. again stay away from the swiss army knife mentality. Frankly I just don't really fin fists to be worth the cost when Mauls and Axes are both already bought options.

Lightning Claws: I am going to cover both variants here at the same time. Lightning claws are interesting weapons, they really boost the carnage a squad of terminators does against its foes, against low T models tey emphasise the brutality a unit can inflict upon a target and against High toughness models they allow a more reliable method of ensuring at least some wounds are placed on the model. In that sense they are very much to models with a toughness value, what power fists are to models with an armour one. Therefore you can get away with treating them as Close Combat specialist weapons and only taking one or two in a squad designed for combat.
That being said, Lightning claws have a Niche where they are very, very effective. Namely marine killing. the shred rule, combined with their I means that models with lightning claws murder opposing power armour. they work particularly well with Slaanesh units, striking first and cutting down opponents before they strike. in that sense they are like a more reliable Lance/Sword weapon and if you are willing to pay the points they can be worth it.
Paired Lightning claws sacrifice ranged offensive potential for magnified combat potential, so if you're going to this route, don't hesitate to stick the squad into a transport to keep it safe, as you are not missing out on any game influence while they are embarked.

Heavy Flamer: A modestly priced heavy weapon option the heavy flamer offers a good defensive boost due to the wall of death rule, while being cheap enough to buy in a squad as an "in case" weapon. In all my years of playing I have never really thought there are many times where having that 10 pts would be a major impact in my army lists, but there are conversely tonnes where having the Heavy flamer has paid off spectacularly. This weapon really only should be taken as a purchase of opportunity on squads that are trying to move into the enemy. if your want the squad to be more shooting oriented then take the Reaper Autocannon instead.

Reaper Autocannon: The reaper gets a lot of flak for being highly priced and rather lacklustre. However it is still a reliable ranged weapon able to pile on the wounds or HPs onto a target from a reasonable range. I like to throw this weapon on my line squads to add a little bit of extra oomph to their ranged presence when I don't have the points for an extra obliterator or dreadnought.
Individually the Reaper is nothing to really write home about, but when you have 3 or 4 spread throughout an army and then focus them on a single target that you want dead then they start to be telling. Personally I think they pair really well with combi-plasma squads, as they have the range and strength to match the desired targets for such combi weapons. One way to look at the reaper is as 2 reasonably assured saves on most models in the game each turn.

Marks and Icons:
Khorne: Used for aggressive terminators that should be aiming to get in close to the enemy and deal damage, it increases the number of attacks each terminator has which is valuable when the only way to get dual combat weapons is by choosing paired lightning claws. It also has the added benefit of opening up access to the Icon of Wrath, a fantastic little boost for a modest price that buffers your terminators from flubbing short charges but also pushes the probability curve density to the higher results, meaning that its more likely that you can pull off 8 and 9 inch charges with your terminator squads. When outfitting MoK squads you want to kit them out to keep punching the opponent, the heavy flamer is a good heavy weapon choice and Flamer/Melta combi-weapons depending on which power weapons you give the squad are a good choice.
Slaanesh: The other aggressive mark is Slaanesh, while it appears to emphasise speed over attacks with +1I is has the added bonus of unlocking the Icon of Excess, granting your terminators FNP. While that may seem little to begin with, when coupled with a 2+/ 5++ it means that your terminators are as survivable or more so than many similar units in other armies, you just have to watch out for the big S8 blast attacks. Slaanesh units can really be built as all rounders, able to do combat or shooting with equal measure. but still don't mix roles. if you want them to be combat monsters, build them as such with lances/swords/mauls/Lightning claws. Stay away from the Axe and the Fists as at that point you are giving up one of the reasons to choose Slaanesh in the first place (the I5). If you are going the shooting route then take combi-weapons and a reaper. I'd suggest the combi-plasma variant in this case, as the IoE further limits the gets hot draw back and you want the additional range offered over the melta and flamer variants. The Twin-linked bolter however is also perfectly acceptable if you want the squad to remain as cheap as possible.
Tzeentch: The first of the defensive buffs is a very specific thing, if you face or expect to face a lots of AP1 & 2 weaponry then the MoT can be worth its weight in gold. An important point to remember is that while your terminators do not shrug off such weaponry the same way that TH/SS terminators do, they are not sacrificing any of their combat potential in order to gain their resilience. The icon of Flame is a very cheap upgrade and can be worth the cost providing you remember to keep track of it. Much like Slaanesh terminators can be considered offensive terminators with a small defensive buff, Tzeentch terminators can be considered defensive with a small offensive buff. The soul blaze rule allows such terminators to do additional damage to the kind of units that such an elite army can struggle with, namely large hordes of low class infantry such as Orks and Tyranids. That being said, soulblaze is also reasonably effective against Eldar infantry of both types and can be an good way to pile a few more wounds onto the odd monstrous creature. Think of it as an extra ranged shot. If you do take this icon then I wouldn't recommend swapping our any of your bolt guns for the combi-variants as you want to maximise the potential for causing units to catch on fire.
Nurgle: This one is my personal baby given that I run a largely Nurgle themed force, and to be fair it's probably the most ostensibly powerful of the lot of them due to its fairly straight forward effect.
See the largest single drawback to Terminator armies is their low numbers, meaning that they are very vulnerable to outliers in the statistics of dice results and volume of fire. it's not unheard of to hear of multiple small arms wounds resulting in devastating casualties in terminator units due to rolling the dreaded 1's. What Mark of Nurgle does is offer the most concrete defence available to any terminator unit in the game against torrenting small arms fire, in the form of +1 toughness. Knocking the number of wounds taken form S4 guns from half down to a third has a HUGE impact on the survivability of your Terminator units long term.
Load out wise you can equip nurgle terminators with any weapon and they will do the job you require, however taking weapons such as Axes and Fists on these units is advisable as they have less to fear from either high I Ap2 weapons (which are typically low S) or massed low S moderate imitative attacks. Nurgle terminators probably make the best purely defensive Terminators, therefore spending points on their ranged upgrades so that they can punish the enemy as they advance is never a bad idea, reaper-autocannons and combi-plasmas are a good combination in this case as their comparable strength and range means that your units can target units and not result in wasting their firepower. I tend to find that keeping these guys cheap by not upgrading their offensive combat weapons compensates for the steeper price of the mark without significantly compromising their combat potential as they are suited more to taking the more powerful but slower combat weaponry anyway.
Don't bother with the Icon of Despair, fear is pretty much the worst special rule in the game, and I don't actually think there is a unit vulnerable to the rule that wouldn't be smashed in combat by your terminators anyway. Furthermore if you are running Crimson Slaughter Terminators, then you already have fear.

EDIT: As shown by Mad Cat bellow, slaanesh terminators with the IoE are more survivable in almost all cases than terminators with the MoN, however, the drawbacks associated with the IoE balance out the potential benefits, namely that the effect only lasts as long as the icon bearer is alive, and that the icon is more expensive. That being said I think this highlights what a solid purchase the IoE is to slaanesh units, and shows that it should probably be a standard purchase for all squads except termicide, where it is easily removed.

Icon of Vengeance: A solid boost for our terminators granting them fearless. always a benefit and if you think it's appropriate then feel free to take it. Personally I feel that the Icon of Wrath and Excess are more beneficial to those units given that Terminators already have a high Ld and those icons help the units accomplish their battlefield roles. That being said, if your units are not operating with character support (which is likely that they are the core of your army and you should have multiple units) then the Icon of Vengeance provides a buffer from those dreaded moral tests.

Veterans of the Long War: a solid upgrade, if a bit expensive on terminator units, the best place for this upgrade is obviously on combat units that expect to face a lot of power armoured armies. otherwise you can likely get by without it too much.

Bringer's of Despair: In the interest of completion I will throw this in here, its a very expensive upgrade, but it has a very obvious place. And that is the hyper-focused black legion anti-marine list, for when you absolutely have to grind your mates space marine army into the dust. You want to spend this upgrade on a big central unit (legion phalanx) as you can only have one in the army. The +1 WS/BS will help you against all armies, but given that you must by VotLW and your obviously taking Abbadon in this list (who is likely with the bringers giving them Preferred enemy Space Marnes) then taking Combi-Plasma's and Reaper autocannon's to really drive home the marine killing is funny.
Given that you are already spending a lot of points on this kind of squad I wouldn't recommend upgrading the Combat weapons, your killing marines, so take Swords and Axes and slaughter the servants of the corpse god!

As a final note, you really want to keep your terminators as cheap as the squad needs to be, in order to maximise its strengths, don't try and match loyalist swiss army builds as it will end up sacrificing our greatest strength for no real bonus. Don't be afraid if your terminators cannot solo that dreadnought or wraith knight, we have access to plenty of support options that will be able to kill those units before they can engage our main force.

[Mad Cat]

Here is a little math-hammer to illustrate the above post.

Average Hits

Storm Bolter = 1.33 hits at 0-24" range
Combibolter = 1.77 hits at 0-12" range and 0.89 hits at 12-24" range
Bolter (after firing combiplas etc) = 1.33 hits at 0-12" range and 0.67 hits at 12-24" range


Percentage change of killing a terminatior with common weapons (Assuming a single hit)

Weapon MoN MoT MoK MoS MoS+Icon
Lasgun 2.78% 5.56% 5.56% 5.56% 3.70%
Bolter 5.56% 8.33% 8.33% 8.33% 5.56%
Heavy Bolter 8.33% 11.11% 11.11% 11.11% 7.41%
Plasma gun 55.56% 41.67% 55.56% 55.56% 37.04%
Krak Missile 13.89% 13.89% 13.89% 13.89% 13.89%
Lascannon 55.56% 41.67% 55.56% 55.56% 55.56%

[daboarder]

Thank you madcat, would you be able to also crunch the numbers for plasma and melta Vs say AV 12?


hmmm interesting, MoS + IoE terminators are as survivable as Nurgle terminators against bolt wounds.....very interesting,

And MORE survivable against Plasma.....wow that is surprising....hmmm should let my deathwing playing mate know that, would make his day to find out that the banner of fortitude does that to his terminators.

edit: updated my post to account for Mad Cats statistical information.

and no love guys?

[40kGamer]

Man that was a MASSIVE post! Thank you for taking the time to put this all together! I have always thought that Chaos Terminators would make a really cool themed army and this is making me want to do some up! Curse you for encouraging my addiction! :)

For survivability, I am actually not surprised to see that the Slaanesh Icon makes them a bit more survivable over the MoN. Although as you pointed out the icon bearer must stay alive and in my experience, a crafty opponent snipes them pretty easily.

As for using a Phalanx... When I have run big Wraithguard units in the past (10 WG + Seer), I've basically walked them right up the middle of the board in most missions or against aggressive enemies, castled up and let them come to me. Is that similar to how you would use a full legion phalanx of these guys? I'm struggling with the footslogging speed. I usually play fast armies and big walking units is not in my wheelhouse.

[daboarder]

Man that was a MASSIVE post! Thank you for taking the time to put this all together! I have always thought that Chaos Terminators would make a really cool themed army and this is making me want to do some up! Curse you for encouraging my addiction! :)

For survivability, I am actually not surprised to see that the Slaanesh Icon makes them a bit more survivable over the MoN. Although as you pointed out the icon bearer must stay alive and in my experience, a crafty opponent snipes them pretty easily.

As for using a Phalanx... When I have run big Wraithguard units in the past (10 WG + Seer), I've basically walked them right up the middle of the board in most missions or against aggressive enemies, castled up and let them come to me. Is that similar to how you would use a full legion phalanx of these guys? I'm struggling with the footslogging speed. I usually play fast armies and big walking units is not in my wheelhouse.

Pleasure to encourage any addictions. :D

yes that is how I would suggest using a phalanx. There is however another option......its fun, but also significantly riskier.....Deepstrike.

As I said I wouldn't recommend it for anything but the hilarity and awesomeness that occurs when you do pull it off, but dropping 10 terminators and some assorted characters behind the opponents lines are likely to make anyone reach for a change of pants, particularly if you absolutely nuke whatever you want with a volley of combi-plas.

[DWest]

With the IoE concept, I believe it has been mentioned in other posts, but (until or unless it gets nerfed) you can put the banner on the Champion, and get at least a 4+ to fob the hit off onto a minion, which hopefully will keep the banner alive longer. Granted, it means the banner can be lost if the champ gets challenged and dies, but is there anything that can easily beat a 2+/5++/FNP character that *won't* tear the squad to bits in CC anyway?

[daboarder]

With the IoE concept, I believe it has been mentioned in other posts, but (until or unless it gets nerfed) you can put the banner on the Champion, and get at least a 4+ to fob the hit off onto a minion, which hopefully will keep the banner alive longer. Granted, it means the banner can be lost if the champ gets challenged and dies, but is there anything that can easily beat a 2+/5++/FNP character that *won't* tear the squad to bits in CC anyway?

While this might work for other armies, and indeed for certain units (ones that include and attached combat character, or designed specifically with shooting in mind) I would general consider it at best an equal survival option. while it may protect the banner from shooting due to the 4+ Los, the banner is then subjected to the problem of being forced into a challenge by the champions of chaos special rule.

As to challenge opponents, it really depends on what you are your champion is commonly armed with and what you typically face.
Nobz with power klaws would be brutal against a such a terminators, as the champion is unlikely cause 2 wounds at I on the nob (using a maul/sword/Claw/Lance). The Nob however readily strips a vital component from the champions defense by virtue of being S8 Ap2, leaving the champion with only his 5++.
A number of Eldar Exarchs can also be built in such a way that they are fairly tough for champion levels to decidedly beat in combat, and many can get high S (though not S8) Ap2 weaponry.
Finally there is the ubiquitous space marine sergeant with a power fist. there aren't a lot of players that wouldn't accept trading in their sergeant (whose leadership bonus is not really needed due to ATSKNF) in order to strip a slaaneshi terminator unit of its protection. Some sergeants can even have better chances of survival, Blood angel players for example can pit fist/shield sergeants with FNP against your champion if they have such builds

[Mad Cat]

[QUOTE=daboarder;433740]Thank you madcat, would you be able to also crunch the numbers for plasma and melta Vs say AV 12?

QUOTE]

Here we go.

Assumed a BS4 Terminator firing against a Chimera at the front armour and with no cover save.

Long range plasma = 1 Shot, 0.67 Hits, 0.11 Glances, 0.11 Penetrations, 0.02 Explosions.
Short range plasma = 2 Shots, 1.33 Hits, 0.22 Glances, 0.22 Penetrations, 0.04 Explosions.
Long range melta = 1 Shot, 0.67 Hits, 0.11 Glances, 0.22 Penetrations, 0.07 Explosions.
Short range melta = 1 Shot, 0.67 Hits, 0.11 Glances, 0.48 Penetrations, 0.16 Explosions.

[daboarder]

Here we go.

Assumed a BS4 Terminator firing against a Chimera at the front armour and with no cover save.

Long range plasma = 1 Shot, 0.67 Hits, 0.11 Glances, 0.11 Penetrations, 0.02 Explosions.
Short range plasma = 2 Shots, 1.33 Hits, 0.22 Glances, 0.22 Penetrations, 0.04 Explosions.
Long range melta = 1 Shot, 0.67 Hits, 0.11 Glances, 0.22 Penetrations, 0.07 Explosions.
Short range melta = 1 Shot, 0.67 Hits, 0.11 Glances, 0.48 Penetrations, 0.16 Explosions.

Cheers madcat

Lord article should be up within 24 hrs

[daboarder]

Sorry, this one kinda got away form me and took me a lot longer to write than I had intended, its damn near as long as the Terminator entry, and I'm STILL not entirely sure I covered everything so I might be adding stuff after this is up.



Lords:
So let's cover lords, In this instance I am specifically discussing lords in terminator armour, I will include a breakdown of each of the relics that they can equip, excluding items that terminator lords cannot access (we'll cover daemon heart later
In a very real sense, the way you build your lord, and indeed if you even take one, has a very large impact on the way you should build and use your terminators. Combat lords require an aggressive play style, cheap lords means that you are probably running more terminators (in larger squads) and the bricks don't move, but need to be able to put on the hurt.
So what do you do with your list if you are running a lord?
Well firstly, you probably are playing more aggressively, with at least one large terminator unit or LR transport that is aiming to get into combat and smash some face. While there are two relics that offer ranged weapons to the lord, for the most part they are tooled for combat, up close and personal. As such you want to be taking units that compliment this, either by being large enough to make it across the field, or inside a moving box.
The other major bonus that a Lord offers your list is fearless. Very important for you terminators that lack this rule to prevent them from running off the board. This is yet another reason to use the Lord in larger squads as that way you maximise the efficiency of the benefit. This is particularly important for those large legion phalanxes to prevent them from running off the board if you are unlucky in your Ld tests.
Another way to use the Lord is as a stand in/replacement for the solo Mutilator, a Lord is faster has more wounds than and more attacks than a mutilator, and if the equipment cost is kept low is not that much more expensive than a Mutilator, this tactic works best with Khorne Lords who have enough attacks to wipe decent sized squads, and Nurgle Lords who have the resilience to shrug of firepower on the turn they arrive.
So let's have a look at choosing a load out for your lord.

Power Weapons/Lightning Claws/ Power fists: Basically everything that applies to equipping basic Terminators applies to the lord, with the following caveat. The Lord has a higher I than you basic Terminator, therefore when you take an unwieldy weapon like the Axe or Fist you are sacrificing more than you would on a Basic terminator. However the counter point to this is that your Lord also has more wounds than the basic guys, therefore he is more likely to survive to strike at I1. The Power weapon Lord is one way to keep your Lord cheap, but I don't feel personally that it offers enough bang for its buck, I'm a fan of always upgrading the equipment for the lord up from the basics.
One trick when upgrading your lord is to keep the power weapon, none of the CC relics are Specialist weapons, therefore by keeping the basic power weapon you gain yourself +1 attack, and all you really lose is the Twin-linked Bolter shots, which can be a very tasty trade. Furthermore you can use this to give yourself options, for example if you equip the Black mace or the Spine Shiver blade then you can compliment them with a free Axe for when you need to deal with those pesky 2+ saves.
Another is to take the Fist and the Claw at the same time, netting you the plus one attack and either 2xS or Shred, depending on what you swing with. This is a fairly cost efficient combo but in my opinion I prefer the relics, just because they offer alternate and different ways of playing.

Twin-linked/Combi Bolter: The other side of the basic Terminator Lord load-out. Again they are not bad weapons, do what it says on the tin, but they are very lack lustre. If you want a lord with a range attack worth a damn then you should be upgrading above these with the relics, and if you want a combat lord then keeping the Power Weapon is probably better for you due to the extra attack.

Relics:
Axe of Blind Fury: Choppy, Choppy, Kill, Death, Blood!
I love this thing, it basically combines all the strengths of a Mace and an Axe, without the drawbacks of either, and then just for icing throws on the Daemon weapons +D6 attacks.....what's not to love?
Oh yeah, only Khorne Lords can take this....sigh!
Other than, the AoBF is a truly frightening weapon. striking hard and fast with a huge number of attacks. Up to 12 with good rolls and the right load out. This weapon basically handles anything you are likely to run into but in order to gain an extra attack it is a prime candidate for keeping the Power Weapon. Finally due to the changes to 7th you don't need to be afraid of wasting this bad boy in challenges, as after you turn whatever you're locked against into chunks you will keep on going right into the unit he's with.

Black Mace: Smashy, Squishy, Kill, Death, Rot!
See what I did there?
This is the other daemon weapon in the basic Relic list and it's not too bad for a Lord. What it lacks in AP adn strength it makes up for in shear damage potential output, with its ability to chain wounds through hordes or put wounds on any model with a T value on 2+. Furthermore it has the ability, though unlikely to kill multi wound models outright due to the cursed special rule, and you'll note that this special rule even bypasses EW, so when you really want to kill that pesky Lysander and Draigo smash 'em in the face a couple of times with this thing. Pair it with an Axe to make yourself a menace to anything you are likely to run into.
NB: It's still up in the air whether the Cursed rule kicks in for every unsaved wound. Personally I'm of the opinion that it does, because the special rule lacks the "one or more" wording that GW uses in those cases. Wording that is used later in that same rule, this to me suggests the first part of the rule operates under different circumstances.

Burning Brand of Skallathrax: Burn 'em All!
One of the tow range relics this weapon is one of the best range character weapons in the game, and is basically there to turn your lord into a miniature Heldrake (with turret). Yes it has a low strength but it more than makes up for that with range, and it's insane ability to generate hits.
Putting it in mathematical terms you will kill half the marines you tag with this template. and honestly it doesn't matter how many attacks other lords can put out, none of them are going to work up the shear body count this thing can in a game. Even better because it is a template weapon it gains the wall of death special rule, netting you D3 S4 AP3 attacks in close combat that are effectively calculated above I10.
I really like running the burning brand on a lord in a Terminator unit, because the Brand compliments the Terminator weapon load outs really well. If they are running plasma then the Brand has the range and AP to match targets and if you are running Heavy flamers/Flamers then another template in the unit is always great and can help generate enough wounds to menace almost all wound based models.
I like to pair this weapon with a CC weapon that can maximise damage output at a cheap price. Namely a Power or Chain Fist. It helps to keep the cost down while still ensuring that the Lord is a threat to most units in combat.
Oh, and it can set units on fire!

Murder Sword: Just no!
Seriously this is probably the worst weapon to put on your Terminator Lord, Unlike Biker/Mount Lords where there is some argument to be made for the use of the Murder Sword as an area denial weapon, with Terminator armour you are just too slow to force the confrontation. Furthermore there are just better weapons in the book, even taking the Claw/Fist combo you replicate the effects of this weapon on most opponents for cheaper. Leave it at home and look elsewhere.

Dimensional Key: If you were expecting a just no for this one, like the Murder Sword, then you would be wrong.
While the Dimensional Key has its issues with not being effective until turn 3 at the earliest, that isn't as much of a problem for Terminator based lists as it is for more traditional builds. You see most terminator lists(Particularly Nurgle and Slaanesh lists) have the staying power to keep a few minimal units on the board before bringing home a brutal shock assault. This Item works particularly well on a Lord running in a Land Raider, you should combine it with an aegis and a Comms Relay to ensure that your units stay off the table turn 2 but the ability to drop terminator squads with pinpoint accuracy regardless of their size can be very very powerful. This Works particularly well for a Khorne Lord as he can grab the benefit of the Icon to ensure that he doesn't flubb the charge out of the raider.

Scrolls of Magnus: Not much to say for this one, it's a cool way to theme your Tzeentch lords to be roughly analogous to a ML1 Psyker. They get the primaris power only until they generate form a second discipline unfortunately, but it's a bit of a fun little item and you can get some nice powers using it. Furthermore the ML1 is hardly a limitation as you pool psychic powers this edition, meaning that if you roll a good power mid/early game you can still cast it. If you are taking this Relic then you should combo it with the Sigil, the 3++ you net really helps to shrug off its negative effects. The strength 3 Ap2 hit is negligble as if you are running a Tzeentch Lord then you should be taking the sigil of Corruption anyway giving you a 3++.

Spineshiver Blade: Pretty much the slaaneshi daemon weapon, the Spineshiver is nice weapon that compensates for its Ap3 with a bucket load of daemon weapon attacks. A Lord with this item strikes at I6, or an insane I7 if they are Slaanesh marked. Combo's well with an axe to allow the Lord options for dealing with tougher models. Also Works nice on Khorne Lords for I6, S5 Ap3 attacks on the charge, and can be a nasty surprise on a Nurgle lord as most people expect them to be slow and ponderous.

The Crucible of Lies: This is an interesting relic, it's a bit expensive in my opinion given that the downside (-1 T) mostly seems to outweigh the benefit (re-roll 1s for svs). It best goes on a Tzeentch Lord who can grab the 3++ and then get the option to re-roll half their failed saves. I have seen it suggested on a Nurgle lord whose +1T cancels out the negative, but paying 40 pts for what is effectively only re-roll 1s isn't very good. The only place this relic really fits is one heavily "themed" characters as a way of creating a "regular human" Lord as opposed to a space marine.

Eye of Night: The other range relic, its kinda like a Combi-nuke? Works better on a Terminator Lord than most models due to the Relentless nature of the armour.
It will screw up parking lots or heavy vehicles like Land raiders with its multiple Hull point damage. Use it to assassinating vehicles that pack the weaponry to hurt your list with ease such as anti-TEQ vehicles or Anti-Air tanks if you run drakes or Anti-Artillery pieces is you really on cultist/zombies. But against ground troops its of limited effectiveness, its low S, scatter and single shot, means that it just can't compare to the Burning Brand when used on infantry. However ignores cover means that it can be used to hammer a unit that relies on cover to survive.
The key to using this item is twofold, the most obvious aspect is ensuring you have the correct target priority, while 75 is a steep price, a long range means of eliminating/crippling a vehicle at will can be game changing. The other key to this item is intimidation, force your opponent to respond to the presence of this item on your lord by hiding his tanks/vulnerable infantry units.

Skull of Ker'ngar: Eternal Warrior. nuff said?
Nah this has a bit of depth to it, see the Skull is an interesting item, there is really no reason not to take it, but if you do you should be aware that it works better on some lords than others. For example, it is less desirable on Nurgle Lords who already have immunity to most instant death to begin with. However it works best on Lords either built to Challenge/Tackle Monstrous Creatures, or Lords designed to tank wounds for the rest of their unit. The only real drawback to the skull is the relic list it is a part of, because if you are taking this relic then you aren't taking the better offensive relics. Works best on Tzeentch/Slaanesh Lords who are likely rocking items from this list anyway.
NB: Oh it also gives you adamantine will so you get some protection from Psykers.

Hand of Darkness: The bad touch relic. This thing is a nifty little thing that can be used to make a single attack in the assault phase instead of using your regular attacks. Statistically it's not the greatest as the single attack often doesn't have a good chance of actually hitting the prime targets (usually a 4+) but when it does conect causes some serious hassles. Its best taken if you expect to run into a lot of non-character Monstrous Creatures as it should kill them in 1 or 2 combat rounds. Due to the changes to vehicle damage in 7th it has less chance of killing a vehicle outright (3+ followed by 4+) but again, against heavier vehicles and walkers it should kill them over a turn or two. This item works best on those lord builds that are designed to tank wounds, so Nurgle or Tzeentch and probably rocking the Skull.
NB: Oh and it's NOT a specialist weapon, so pair it with your power weapon to get an extra attack against regular mooks.

Blade of the Relentless: A Power Sword that Gets better. It's the only weapon a Lord can get from this list, but it's a good one, it's pretty easy to unlock the +1S and the Ap2 with 3 kills, which every Lord should be able to get too, even with just the power sword. Getting the second Strength boost and the Instant Death is harder, and if that's your goal then you are better off taking different weapons and accepting their drawbacks. This is Sword, and indeed most of the relics in this list tend to be better for the non-Khorne lord. If you are taking this weapon, then taking a land raider transport is a good idea, as you want to ensure that you have the mobility to engage the units you want in an order that allows you to maximise the effect of the weapon. IE: Charge a chaff squad first before engaging harder targets etc...

Slaughterer's Horn's: Turn your Lord into a Khorne Lord.....seriously this item gives you most of the bonuses Khorne Lords enjoy without the drawbacks (such as no MoN). Very cheap it works really well to turn even cheaper, less outfitted lords into a combat threat. Take some basic equipment and spend the minimal points on the Horns to make that Basic equipment more effective. If you are buying a Lord mostly for the Fearless bonus then grabbing the Horns to go with the naked Terminator loadout is a pretty good idea.

Prophet of the Voices: In a Terminator list the Prophet has only 1 real place due to the restriction on which units you can join. And that is the Lordillator, the granting of fleet means that your Lord can deepstrike out of line of sight and be more likely to pull of longer charges on the turn that he does decide to come out to play. Furthermore, all the rolls on the Slaves table improve the Lordinators chances of survival.

So to close, in a sense the Relic list you choose should define the type of Lord you build. For the Most case if you want a Lord that focuses on Destruction of the enemy then the basic list is best. If you want a Lord Which is more resilient then the Black Legion Relics will help you more. And if you want to keep your Lord reasonably cheap then the Crimson Slaughter is generally the way to go.

Next installment Sorcerers (oh god, this is going to be as long as the Lords isn't it.....)

- - - Updated - - -


As a long term Deathguard player I have mixed feelings about an all terminator force. I do love my objective secured Plague Marines.
Back in 4th ed I did considder a termie army and bought the Apocalypse termie strike force they released several years ago (15 termies + termie Lord). Now that 7th edition allows termies to score as well as contest (except against troop choices) the idea of a Plaguewing force is much more appealing.

HQ: Typhus, Termie MoN Lord with claw & Brand
Elites: 3x7 Termies with MoN, Plenty of combi weapons and a mix of close combat weapons.
Troops: 1x30 Zombies and several other 10 strong zombie units
Fast: nope
Heavy: 2 or 3 pairs of Obliterators with MoN.

The Zombies are there to hold objectives being fearless and with FNP they are difficult to shift from cover especially when there are far more deadly termies deepstriking in the enemy's face and threatening a charge after combi-plasma spamming a unit to death on arrival. I don't feel too bad at including their unarmoured corpses in such a list. In orter to take them you must have Typhus and if he isn't the living embodiment of the Plaguewing. The Lord makes another unit fearless and gets I5 in challenges and of course the brand is great at shifting people from cover.

This is basically how I would run it too, though I'd only run the ZOmbies in large squads, even if that means less units overall.

[40kGamer]

Alright you evil git! I'm going to blow the dust off my Chaos codex and actually play with some themed lists this coming weekend. :p

It's just a shame that there's no way to actually make Chaos Terminators troops in any of the existing supplements but I guess a cheap cultist tax isn't too bad to pay. Can you get by with 2xminimal cultist squads to save points for more termies or to actually have a chance of winning do you think you need more depth in the troops section?

[Caitsidhe]

Alright you evil git! I'm going to blow the dust off my Chaos codex and actually play with some themed lists this coming weekend. :p

It's just a shame that there's no way to actually make Chaos Terminators troops in any of the existing supplements but I guess a cheap cultist tax isn't too bad to pay. Can you get by with 2xminimal cultist squads to save points for more termies or to actually have a chance of winning do you think you need more depth in the troops section?

The Cultist tax isn't bad. All my CSM lists pay the Cultists tax these days, i.e. freeing up more points for everything else. I'm still not sold on the Terminators being useful for more than Termicide (which I still make regular use of) but I'm hoping to hear about good results from all of you. :D

[daboarder]

Alright you evil git! I'm going to blow the dust off my Chaos codex and actually play with some themed lists this coming weekend. :p

It's just a shame that there's no way to actually make Chaos Terminators troops in any of the existing supplements but I guess a cheap cultist tax isn't too bad to pay. Can you get by with 2xminimal cultist squads to save points for more termies or to actually have a chance of winning do you think you need more depth in the troops section?The Cultist tax isn't bad. All my CSM lists pay the Cultists tax these days, i.e. freeing up more points for everything else. I'm still not sold on the Terminators being useful for more than Termicide (which I still make regular use of) but I'm hoping to hear about good results from all of you. :D

Cait is right, the Cultist tax is very minimal at 110 pts.

I honestly just explain to most of my opponents that the list is using unbound to create a theme and to force me into a bound list would be honestly pointless as it is a minimal investment in pts and list change for me, they will still be facing the majority of my terminators if they make an issue of it.

If they still cry cheese or refuse, then I upgrade my Lord to Typhus and shove 40 zombies down their throat backed up by massed T5 terminators with Combipla/Axe.....they tend to get the point after that.

As I pointed out in the first post, I'll cover Cultists/Zombies later.

And Cait, I know your not a huge fan of terminator lists, and that's fine, I just feel I should re-iterate that this thread is designed to explain how to make a terminator list work to the best of its abilities after you've decided that's what you want to run.

[Caitsidhe]

Cait is right, the Cultist tax is very minimal at 110 pts.

I honestly just explain to most of my opponents that the list is using unbound to create a theme and to force me into a bound list would be honestly pointless as it is a minimal investment in pts and list change for me, they will still be facing the majority of my terminators if they make an issue of it.

If they still cry cheese or refuse, then I upgrade my Lord to Typhus and shove 40 zombies down their throat backed up by massed T5 terminators with Combipla/Axe.....they tend to get the point after that.

As I pointed out in the first post, I'll cover Cultists/Zombies later.

And Cait, I know your not a huge fan of terminator lists, and that's fine, I just feel I should re-iterate that this thread is designed to explain how to make a terminator list work to the best of its abilities after you've decided that's what you want to run.

No worries. I'm hoping to hear about some things I haven't thought of or that worked better than my own experiences. In fairness, most of my previous testing was in previous editions when Terminators didn't score, so it is possible the META shift helps them a little bit. I just wish they had given us access to damn Storm Shields. Why that technology is beyond CSM is beyond me. Are we unable to pick up a damn shield from fallen Terminators we kill? :D

[daboarder]

No worries. I'm hoping to hear about some things I haven't thought of or that worked better than my own experiences. In fairness, most of my previous testing was in previous editions when Terminators didn't score, so it is possible the META shift helps them a little bit. I just wish they had given us access to damn Storm Shields. Why that technology is beyond CSM is beyond me. Are we unable to pick up a damn shield from fallen Terminators we kill? :D

Yeah SS's would have been nice, but to get the most out of them you really need them inside a LR, and our LR is pretty bad for assault units. I still think we make far better shooting terminator units than the Loyalists though, and in 7th thats a big thing.