Interesting little thing I found that could be argued 2 ways; keep it civil

[John Bower]

Right, under reserves it looks for all intents and purposes like if a DS unit mishaps into Ongoing reserves it now has to walk on from the owning players table edge. That also includes Mawloc burrowing and the swooping Hawks bugging out and coming back in.

However; under the psychic powers there's a suggestion that maybe, just maybe that wasn't RAI, as a unit conjured deep strikes within x" of the psyker; but if it goes into ongoing reserves (that's the key, it specifically mentions 'ongoing' reserves) it can then DS anywhere on the table when it arrives.

Now is that just poor wording under the ongoing reserves rules so that once again RAW and RAI don't match up, or is it actually specific to conjured units?

[Wolfshade]

Conjuring is a special case of deep striking.

[PaD]

"Units in Ongoing Reserve always enter play at the start of their controlling player's following turn, but otherwise follow the normal rules for Reserves."

If you can Deep Strike from Reserves then you can Deep Strike from Ongoing Reserves, surely?

[Charon]

Right, under reserves it looks for all intents and purposes like if a DS unit mishaps into Ongoing reserves it now has to walk on from the owning players table edge.

Where do you read that?
The only exception I can see is outflank which mentions specifically "if the unit enters by reserve and not by ongoing reserve..."

[Blood Shadow]

I can see the confusion but actually it's quite clear:

The Reserves rule states that units arriving from reserve MUST arrive from the players table edge
Ongoing Reserves follows the above rule too, once in Ongoing Reserves you follow the rules for Reserves.

However models with the Deep Strike Special rule (depending on whether the unit must or can choose to) may arrive from reserve using the Deep Strike special rule. The only stipulation is that you MUST tell your opponent that the unit is Deep Striking when placing the unit in reserves.

[John Bower]

I can see the confusion but actually it's quite clear:

The Reserves rule states that units arriving from reserve MUST arrive from the players table edge
Ongoing Reserves follows the above rule too, once in Ongoing Reserves you follow the rules for Reserves.

However models with the Deep Strike Special rule (depending on whether the unit must or can choose to) may arrive from reserve using the Deep Strike special rule. The only stipulation is that you MUST tell your opponent that the unit is Deep Striking when placing the unit in reserves.

It just strikes me that 'normal rules for reserves' indicates more clearly than 6th ed did that it specifically means you come on from your table edge; so in the case of a DS unit or the Mawloc burrowing or Swooping Hawks using their leap ability; all now follow the 'normal rules for reserves' once they do so, which indicates that Hawks/Mawloc are a one shot wonder now even if they survive that; and DS units such as terminators are (narratively speaking of course) so far off course they had to walk onto the field of battle.

It no longer says they 'enter play from reserves 'as normal'' like it used to but 'follow the normal rules for reserves' and that is quite definitely the 'normal' rule.

Heck I'd like to be able to shoot my Mawloc off and come up under another unit, but this implies that is no longer allowed unlike in 5th ed and even 6th where they 'arrived as normal' so the definition of 'normal' was a bit grey. This is quite clear what 'normal' means compared to 6th ed. But although it is RAW, is it RAI? Or should those misshaping termies come in as a DS unit next time around again? And can a Mawloc that doesn't die or get locked in CC vanish and do the same trick a second time? Ditto Swooping Hawks, can they DS again using their grenade pack?

[Blood Shadow]

It just strikes me that 'normal rules for reserves' indicates more clearly than 6th ed did that it specifically means you come on from your table edge; so in the case of a DS unit or the Mawloc burrowing or Swooping Hawks using their leap ability; all now follow the 'normal rules for reserves' once they do so, which indicates that Hawks/Mawloc are a one shot wonder now even if they survive that; and DS units such as terminators are (narratively speaking of course) so far off course they had to walk onto the field of battle.

It no longer says they 'enter play from reserves 'as normal'' like it used to but 'follow the normal rules for reserves' and that is quite definitely the 'normal' rule.

Heck I'd like to be able to shoot my Mawloc off and come up under another unit, but this implies that is no longer allowed unlike in 5th ed and even 6th where they 'arrived as normal' so the definition of 'normal' was a bit grey. This is quite clear what 'normal' means compared to 6th ed. But although it is RAW, is it RAI? Or should those misshaping termies come in as a DS unit next time around again? And can a Mawloc that doesn't die or get locked in CC vanish and do the same trick a second time? Ditto Swooping Hawks, can they DS again using their grenade pack?

I think your argument risks becoming obtuse....

There is nothing in the normal rules for Reserves preventing the secondary use of the Deep Strike special rule, the only requirement is to tell your opponent that the unit will arrive from Reserve by Deep Strike...fully in accordance with the normal rules for Reserves...

In fact there's absolutely no rule anywhere in the book or even an implicit suggestion that Deep Strike is a one time shot thing, I think it's crazy that you'd suggest so. With absolutely no precedence in the rule book I can see you creating quite a stir if you try and play it that way......

[Charon]

Way to much "wishthinking" on your part.
If it was like that, DS would be impossible anyways as the "normal" rule is: walk in from table edge.

[John Bower]

I think your argument risks becoming obtuse....

There is nothing in the normal rules for Reserves preventing the secondary use of the Deep Strike special rule, the only requirement is to tell your opponent that the unit will arrive from Reserve by Deep Strike...fully in accordance with the normal rules for Reserves...

In fact there's absolutely no rule anywhere in the book or even an implicit suggestion that Deep Strike is a one time shot thing, I think it's crazy that you'd suggest so. With absolutely no precedence in the rule book I can see you creating quite a stir if you try and play it that way......

Like I said, happy if that's right, I have both Swooping Hawks in my Eldar and a Mawloc in my Tyranids that would love it that way; but when you read the DS rules then go on to read Ongoing reserves it suggests you forego the DS if you mishap. Otherwise again the conjuration version would not need to tell you that you can DS if you mishap surely? Like I said, if I'm wrong then great, blooming awesome in fact, as the Hawks can drop pack after pack of grenades on their hapless foes, and Mo can keep munching her way through as many units as she can survive doing it to.

[Charon]

I still dont see where your "rule" should be?
If you mishap you go in ongoing reserve. Ongoing reserve states that you handle it like reserves. Deepstrike allows you to deepstike instead of following the reserve rules. There is no word about ongoing reserves disallow anything or follows other rules.
By your logic deepstriking would be impossible altogether, not only in ongoing reserve.
If ongoing reserve is handeled different it is stated like the outflank rule which says you may outflank from reserves but not from ongoing reserves.

[DWest]

Consider also, the Conjuration rules initially state that the unit must arrive from Deep Strike within the power's range, i.e. 12" from the Psyker. If the clarifying passage wasn't there, that says the unit may Deep Strike anywhere from Ongoing Reserves, then the argument could be made that the unit still has to arrive within 12" of the original caster, and as such, if that Psyker dies before your next turn, your conjured unit would be stuck in limbo.

[John Bower]

I still dont see where your "rule" should be?
If you mishap you go in ongoing reserve. Ongoing reserve states that you handle it like reserves. Deepstrike allows you to deepstike instead of following the reserve rules. There is no word about ongoing reserves disallow anything or follows other rules.
By your logic deepstriking would be impossible altogether, not only in ongoing reserve.
If ongoing reserve is handeled different it is stated like the outflank rule which says you may outflank from reserves but not from ongoing reserves.

Not true, logically speaking the 'normal rules for reserves' are that you enter from your own table edge; Deep Striking is an exception to the rule stated to your opponent at the start of the game. So in reserves unit X can deep strike; however let's assume it mishaps and rolls a 6; it goes into 'ongoing reserves' which clearly states that it follows the 'normal rules for reserves', no mention of being allowed to use any special rules it may have had before that. In 6th ed it was 'enters play from reserve as normal', slightly different wording but makes a world of difference, it's not 'normal rules' but 'as normal' implying as it normally would enter, where the new rule implies it must follow the 'normal rules' ie the normal method of entry. It also used to say that it had 'been delayed' which I don't think it says anymore, again subtle but could mean the intent was they landed off the field instead of where they meant to and had to walk to the battle instead of just 'arriving' by teleport or whatever. And historically of course that did happen, paras landing way off target and having to trudge their way to the battle, they couldn't just climb back in their plane again.

[DWest]

Not true, logically speaking the 'normal rules for reserves' are that you enter from your own table edge; Deep Striking is an exception to the rule stated to your opponent at the start of the game. So in reserves unit X can deep strike; however let's assume it mishaps and rolls a 6; it goes into 'ongoing reserves' which clearly states that it follows the 'normal rules for reserves', no mention of being allowed to use any special rules it may have had before that.
If you read the rule for Ongoing Reserves, it says "Units in Ongoing Reserve always re-enter play at the start of their controlling player's following turn, but otherwise follow the normal rules for Reserves." The only thing this implies is that there is a specific exception to the standard Reserves rule, and that exception is that the unit comes into play automatically, without requiring a Reserves roll.


It also used to say that it had 'been delayed' which I don't think it says anymore, again subtle but could mean the intent was they landed off the field instead of where they meant to and had to walk to the battle instead of just 'arriving' by teleport or whatever. And historically of course that did happen, paras landing way off target and having to trudge their way to the battle, they couldn't just climb back in their plane again.
The Deep Strike Mishap Table is still labelled '4-6 Delayed'.

[daboarder]

This was exaclty the same last edition. And no we know that ongoing reserves does not prevent t units from deepstriking becuase there are units that do not work or make any sense if that was so.

Logic therefore dictates that if there is ambiguity you are able to clearly see which way the rule should be read

[Anggul]

Regardless of how it reads, no reasonable person would insist that your Mawloc couldn't go for another strike, I don't see that it really matters as long as your opponent isn't a less-than-decent-person.

[Wolfshade]

This was exaclty the same last edition. And no we know that ongoing reserves does not prevent t units from deepstriking becuase there are units that do not work or make any sense if that was so.

Logic therefore dictates that if there is ambiguity you are able to clearly see which way the rule should be read

You imagine if this were the case?

Oh, your drop pod has been delayed, as it is an immobile vehicle it can't enter board...

[John Bower]

You imagine if this were the case?

Oh, your drop pod has been delayed, as it is an immobile vehicle it can't enter board...

Ah, but a drop pod is covered in the DS rule; it 'must' deep strike so always does. Terminators/Hawks/Mawloc et. al. don't have to. :) Deep Strike is 'outside' the normal rules for reserves, it has its own section. Only when they mishap does it state they enter 'ongoing' reserves and in ongoing it states that units entering this way follow the normal rules for reserves; nowhere in the normal rules does it state you use any special rules from your unit. I know I'm no the only person who read it that way. A few people have and all of us would be only too happy if it is proven that we're wrong. I play nids/marines/Eldar, so have DS units coming out of my ears. Or have you all forgotten a similar discussion last edition about what constitutes 'normal'? Has opinion changed now on that then? so a Tyranid player can use any models from the Trygon Prime's hole?

[Charon]

Ah, but a drop pod is covered in the DS rule; it 'must' deep strike so always does

By your rule it would be forbidden causing it to never enter table as he must deepstrike and is disallowed from doing so.
You create an exception to the rules.
Deepstrike is another way of deploying from reserve. Nothing more, nothing less. USR trumps standard rule.
Rule of thumb: If you have to wrap your head X times around certain situations just to make your interpretation work, while the other interpretation works in every case, you are probably wrong.

[daboarder]

Ah, but a drop pod is covered in the DS rule; it 'must' deep strike so always does. Terminators/Hawks/Mawloc et. al. don't have to. :) Deep Strike is 'outside' the normal rules for reserves, it has its own section. Only when they mishap does it state they enter 'ongoing' reserves and in ongoing it states that units entering this way follow the normal rules for reserves; nowhere in the normal rules does it state you use any special rules from your unit. I know I'm no the only person who read it that way. A few people have and all of us would be only too happy if it is proven that we're wrong. I play nids/marines/Eldar, so have DS units coming out of my ears. Or have you all forgotten a similar discussion last edition about what constitutes 'normal'? Has opinion changed now on that then? so a Tyranid player can use any models from the Trygon Prime's hole?

explain the mawloc.

Go on.

I DARE YOU!

[John Bower]

explain the mawloc.

Go on.

I DARE YOU!

Don't need to; Charon came up with the kicker for it, USR trumps standard; I'll look that up but it's good enough for me. :) Emperor help my poor din dins though :) S6 AP2 multi-munch as a guardsman would say... INCOMING!!

And thanks to everyone that chimed in; been a good, civil discussion and I was interpreting it wrong (glad about that) so once again thanks all.

[daboarder]

except it doesn't

The mawloc rules dont overide the basic rules anywhere.

Therefore we are able to understand that the basic rules themselves allow units with deepstrike to deepstrike out of ongoing reserves.

[Tynskel]

except it doesn't

The mawloc rules dont overide the basic rules anywhere.

Therefore we are able to understand that the basic rules themselves allow units with deepstrike to deepstrike out of ongoing reserves.

I have argued this before in the forum: there is no definition of 'normal reserves'. Deep strike, is a type of reserve, and therefore, is 'normal'. If you have deep strike, you may use that 'normally'.

[John Bower]

except it doesn't

The mawloc rules dont overide the basic rules anywhere.

Therefore we are able to understand that the basic rules themselves allow units with deepstrike to deepstrike out of ongoing reserves.

You can't use the Mawloc for that example; it has its own rules and doesn't say it can DS from ongoing reserves. If ongoing reserves can Deep Strike so can Mawloc; had I been right initially and as I've pointed out I wasn't; they could have burrowed sure, but then would no longer have had the ability to DS as they would have been in 'ongoing reserves'. In any case regardless of that Codex trumps BRB except where FAQ'd otherwise. Such as several of the marine dexes now that have had their 'powers' taken away from them.

[marful]

Page 162 of basic rule book, 3rd paragraph under "Deep Strike":


Arriving by Deep Strike
Roll for the arrival of all Deep Striking units as specified in the rules for Reserves (pg 135) and then deploy them as follows:

There is no question. The rules for Deep Striking themselves state that they supersede and over ride the rules for reserves. The only part of the Reserves rules you use is rolling for arrivals. When it comes to actually deploying the models you use the Deep Strike Rules, exactly as the Deep Strike Rules specify.


Further, in the case of the Mawloc or summoned daemons that suffered a "Delayed" mishap on the Deep Strike Mishap Table, again, the Deep Strike Rules says the following:

Page 162 of basic rule book, 2nd paragraph, 2nd to last sentence under "Deep Strike":

Some units must arrive by Deep Strike. They always begin the game in Reserve and always arrive by Deep Strike.

Conjured daemons must always arrive by deep strike the moment it's summoned, however the rules (page 26) states that
"If the new unit suffers a Deep Strike Mishap and ends up in Ongoing Reserves it can Deep Strike anywhere on the board when it enters play."

So if the conjured Daemons suffer a Delayed result, they can deep strike anywhere on the board, OR walk onto the edge like normal reserves.


Either way, Deep Strike > Reserves as far as rules precedence.

[John Bower]

Page 162 of basic rule book, 3rd paragraph under "Deep Strike":



There is no question. The rules for Deep Striking themselves state that they supersede and over ride the rules for reserves. The only part of the Reserves rules you use is rolling for arrivals. When it comes to actually deploying the models you use the Deep Strike Rules, exactly as the Deep Strike Rules specify.


Further, in the case of the Mawloc or summoned daemons that suffered a "Delayed" mishap on the Deep Strike Mishap Table, again, the Deep Strike Rules says the following:

Page 162 of basic rule book, 2nd paragraph, 2nd to last sentence under "Deep Strike":


Conjured daemons must always arrive by deep strike the moment it's summoned, however the rules (page 26) states that

So if the conjured Daemons suffer a Delayed result, they can deep strike anywhere on the board, OR walk onto the edge like normal reserves.


Either way, Deep Strike > Reserves as far as rules precedence.

Yeah, already admitted I was wrong anyway. thanks for the clear run through though :)

[daboarder]

You can't use the Mawloc for that example; it has its own rules and doesn't say it can DS from ongoing reserves. If ongoing reserves can Deep Strike so can Mawloc; had I been right initially and as I've pointed out I wasn't; they could have burrowed sure, but then would no longer have had the ability to DS as they would have been in 'ongoing reserves'. In any case regardless of that Codex trumps BRB except where FAQ'd otherwise. Such as several of the marine dexes now that have had their 'powers' taken away from them.

Sorry just clarifying. That was why I was using the mawloc.

Its the most obvious example for units being able to ds out of ongoing reserves