Getting the most out of - Pyrovores.

[Mr Mystery]

How do?

Thought I'd try something a little different on this one, and depending on how it goes, might make it an irregular series of similar articles.

What I'm trying to do is take an objective look at some of the more maligned units out there, starting with the humble Pyrovore. Now, I'd rather avoid any pointless snarky comments about 'just take X, hurr' because we all know the poor bugger struggles to find a place in people's lists.

To start off, lets have a butchers at its downsides. Well, first up, it's in the Elites section. In amongst far more roundedly useful Bugs (like Zoanthropes, Venomthropes, and of course the Haruspex). Then, for it's statline, it's price seems a wee bit on the high side. So overall, it's understandable it's not everyone's go-to bug of choice.

But that's being all negative and stuff, and worrying far too much about squeezing the absolute most out your list for competitive advantage. Fact is, it's quite a nice looking model, and it's not completely without it's uses.

Main weapon? Essentially a Heavy Flamer. Not too shabby. Heavy Flamers are pretty useful, once you get in range. S5, AP4, ignores cover - There's quite a lot to like about the humble Heavy Flamer. Traditional downside is the aforementioned 'once you get in range'. Not too bad on a tank or in a unit of other stuff. But when the entire squad has them? Bit trickier. I'd recommend using other bugs to screen them. Though due to the presence of it's Volatile rule, I'd stop short of actually putting it in amongst another unit - kind of just asking for trouble!

It also benefits from Acid Maw, and Acid Blood. And those to me, are the aces in the hole of this odd little creature. Lets look at Acid Maw first. Well, what can I say? S5, AP2 Melee weapon. That's pretty cool. But, only two attacks on the profile, and a max of three Pyrovores to a Brood. This prevents them from being a threat to largeish units.....or so you'd think You see, you also have the quite lovely Acid Blood.....

Yes folks, Acid Blood. Make your opponent pay for pulling all you legs off and beating you round the head with them! In short, for every unsaved wound you suffer during an Initiative step in combat, your opponents unit has to take an Initiative test. Fail it, and that's a S5, AP2 hit on them.... The potency of this is often overlooked because Pyrovores only have two wounds. But......that just means after you've suffered that second wound, you're removed from play. And models are removed from play at the end of each Initiative step....so you can actually force a lot more tests than your opponent might be expecting.

Can you see where I'm going with this? With careful target selection (a unit with the same I value throughout, and plenty of attacks) you can trick your opponent into doing horrendous damage. Consider a mob of 30 Orkses..... Why, they're all I2....and pretty decent in combat. You're almost certain to die. HURRAH! Get. Stuck. In. The more they slap you around, the more danger they're in!

Another prime target for selection would be something akin to Terminators. If they've all got Powerfist equivalents, your Acid Maw gets a crack at gribbling them first. And if that doesn't work (bloody Storm Shields), you get a second bite of the cherry by weeing acid all over them. Remember.....every Instant Death counts as doing wounds, and thus forces Acid Blood checks.

Is this an ideal tactic? Nope. Is fielding deliberate suicide units just what the doctor ordered for everyone? Nope. But, they are things to consider about the humble Pyrovore.

So that's my take on them. Over to yourselves now. Tell us any tricks you've found. And please. If you're just here to point out that the unit isn't all that and a bag of potato chips, save the wear and tear on your keyboard and not bother eh?

- - - Updated - - -

Also - No idea how that smiley got on the title....

[YorkNecromancer]

I always think of Pyrovores in terms of 'if this was a Space Marine...'

If a Pyrovore was in the Marine codex, it would be the equivelant of two Space Marine Scouts with a Heavy Flamer and Power Sword on a 60mm base, for the price of a Terminator. Only it can't scout, can't move through cover, and can't get in a dedicated transport.

Yeah, it ignores armour, but almost literally everything else can kill it in assault - even mediocre combat troops.
Yeah, it gets the acid blood - but that's a one-trick pony and not even an especially good one, because it involves the Pryovore dying too. A TH/SS Terminator costs the same points as these things, and they do equivelant damage while simultaneously being FAR more survivable.
Yeah, Heavy Flamers are great - but you'll never get in range to shoot them because an Imperial Guard squad can kill you with its flashlights!
And finally - your model costs twenty quid. Twenty quid! Five Marine Scouts cost fifteen!

So, I love that you're trying to look on the upside, I really do. And yes, the Pyrovore is better than it was in 5th, where it was an abject joke.

But the Pyrovore is still absolute turd. It's complete, unusable turd. It cannot be saved, because it's got a schizophrenic weapon loadout which is not backed up by its statline, it cannot survive to assault, and even if by some miracle it does, its only actual strategy is 'let them hit me until I die'.

It just sucks. It sucks the farts from a dead duck's colon.

[hyudun]

Promethium Relay Pipes. All of your Pyrovores near it now have Torrent and an optional 4+ save (even though it does have a chance of exploding).

Competitive? No clue - I don't play 'Nids, but it's gotta improve their value somewhat.

[daboarder]

leave it out, it is for all intents and purposes usless.

In fact without spores the pyrovore is even worse off now than it was last time.

It does not cover any role that cannot be done by spending 10 pts elswhere

[Mr Mystery]

Guys, I think you may have missed the point of this thread.

It's not about suddenly claiming Pyrovores are utterly ace, but providing hints and tips to those who wish to field them. And no, 'seek psychiatric help' is not suitable advice :p

[daboarder]

I'll put it this way Mystery.

In both Eels, and my tacticas for nids, we both basically agree that its hopeless. there is just no saving the rules for that thing. It is the worst rules set in the game.

[Mr Mystery]

Which....nobody is attempting to deny.

It's about looking at the positives, no matter how limited those may be.

[daboarder]

.....its a good paperweight?


Oh no, finecast, sorry my bad.

its a wonderful looking model but use it as a biovore if you have one and just want to see it on the table....or perhaps proxy it as a miasma cannon prime.....

[michael79]

How to get the most out of your Pyrovores... I like it! Here's some biomass for thought:

First: most 40k players think about nids backwards... multiplicity and damage output are want you want, NOT survivability so much. Strength in numbers is the game. If anybody says, "Well I'll just shoot my melta's at your pyrovores and kill them in one round" then they are forgetting that there are also likely two flyrants, an exocrine and a Trygon also coming their way, too. Just becasue of their "low priority" status, pyrovores will probably out-live a lot of other units in the nid army.

Second: I think what hurts the pyrovores the most is its SLOW speed and short range. Sure those heavy flamers are great, but you have to get in range to use them. So pyrovores might be best as defensive interceptor units... midtable support and control against aggressive lists might be the best way to go. If you really really really want to get them across the table and in your opponents face, I think a good option might be trygon tunnels with an aegis com-relay. Its a bit of a crap shoot, but with some luck, you can get a trygon tunnel forward on turn 2 and your squad of pyrovores in the opponents backfield on turn 3. The more Trygons and pyrovore units you have, the better your chances are, but that is quite a heavy investement.

Last thoughts: Some units are definitely NOT as bad as the internet makes them out to be. Most people's opinions are based on theorycrafting and not on actually playing with a squad of pyrovores. Give em a try (proxy them in if you don't want to pay the steed price) and see what happens. Also remember that using them just once is not a very good statistical sample to determine their actual value. Play a few games and try out different combos to get a more accurate feel for them.

[Mr Mystery]

That's a fair point. I tend to think of them as quite aggressive units - one to be hurled toward the enemy.

But used defensively, kept out of sight near bigger support bugs, they can pose a nasty surprise should anything non-MEQ attempt to overwhelm the big ones in combat. Quick bit of roasty toasty, and then hurl it into combat. Single Heavy Flamer turned on a tightly bunched unit of Orks for instance can reap a hefty tole.

Again, not what I think anyone could consider a prime choice unit, but there are uses for it.

[Charon]

How to get the most out of your Pyrovores... I like it! Here's some biomass for thought:

First: most 40k players think about nids backwards... multiplicity and damage output are want you want, NOT survivability so much. Strength in numbers is the game. If anybody says, "Well I'll just shoot my melta's at your pyrovores and kill them in one round" then they are forgetting that there are also likely two flyrants, an exocrine and a Trygon also coming their way, too. Just becasue of their "low priority" status, pyrovores will probably out-live a lot of other units in the nid army.

Here is the first issue. Number of bodies doesnt matter anymore to tyranids. Thats why I dont like them in their current iteration. They are described in books as massive amount of fangs and claws who chew their way through the enemy with a few big leaderbeasts to take on the hardest enemy resistance.
How they are currently working? A lot of huge beasts supported by a few small shooting beasts to unlock another huge beast. Currently the Tyranids are a race of a few monstrous creatures fielding sometimes even less creatures than an average space marine army. Imperial guard vastly outnumbers nids when it should be the other way round.
Yes, every shot that is aimed at a pyrovore is not aimed at another big bug. 100% agreed. But every pyrovore squad means also LESS big bugs. (a squad of 3 is another carnifex/harpy/biovore squad..)



Second: I think what hurts the pyrovores the most is its SLOW speed and short range. Sure those heavy flamers are great, but you have to get in range to use them. So pyrovores might be best as defensive interceptor units... midtable support and control against aggressive lists might be the best way to go. If you really really really want to get them across the table and in your opponents face, I think a good option might be trygon tunnels with an aegis com-relay. Its a bit of a crap shoot, but with some luck, you can get a trygon tunnel forward on turn 2 and your squad of pyrovores in the opponents backfield on turn 3. The more Trygons and pyrovore units you have, the better your chances are, but that is quite a heavy investement.

The deal with the first part is: Any unit that is capable of "countercharging" deep into the tyranid deplyment zone probably ignores the flamer and just shoots the pyrovores to pieces.
To the second part: Yes. May work. Heavy investment and if you mess up your reserves the game is basically over. But yes. The question here is more of: If you invest that heavily into this one trick pony, why not pick units that can do the same job cheaper/better?


Last thoughts: Some units are definitely NOT as bad as the internet makes them out to be. Most people's opinions are based on theorycrafting and not on actually playing with a squad of pyrovores. Give em a try (proxy them in if you don't want to pay the steed price) and see what happens. Also remember that using them just once is not a very good statistical sample to determine their actual value. Play a few games and try out different combos to get a more accurate feel for them.

Not. Some units are not that bad. But there are obviously way better choices which make them seem bad (unless all better choices are extremely overpowered which probably not the case with nid units).
The problem with pyrovores is that they come in a unit of its own, have a rather cheap weapon and you still pay a premium price for them.

However I can imagine that they could be uses against orcs to a certain extent. But again as suicide unit. and paying 40 points for a suicide unit is possibly rather unwise.

[daboarder]

That's a fair point. I tend to think of them as quite aggressive units - one to be hurled toward the enemy.

But used defensively, kept out of sight near bigger support bugs, they can pose a nasty surprise should anything non-MEQ attempt to overwhelm the big ones in combat. Quick bit of roasty toasty, and then hurl it into combat. Single Heavy Flamer turned on a tightly bunched unit of Orks for instance can reap a hefty tole.

Again, not what I think anyone could consider a prime choice unit, but there are uses for it.

Or.....pay 10 points and have god knows how many spare to spend somewhere else.

[Mr Mystery]

If you can't be bothered to post in the spirit of the thread, leave the thread.

It may shock you to know that you are not in fact the be all and end all of tactical knowledge in the hobby. You, like all of us, are just yet another mook on the interwebs.

[Wolfshade]

Let's keep it civil.

Yes using convential wisdom the Pyrovore is "sub par" as acknowledged in the OP. However, the purpose of this thread isn't "no internets you are wrong, pyrovores are da bomb" (pun intended) but more is to look at "if you had/wanted to take" a pyrovore how is it best utilised.

[CrimsonTurkey]

I think area denial is the only thing they can really be good at. If you can place an objective so that it really easy to keep the pyrovores out of line of sight on said objective, they could slow down and damage a unit moving in on said objective. Of course, this is very dependent on having the right terrain. I'd probably flame whoever approaches first and then charge, hoping to explode.

[xsquidz]

Don't forget that flamers are now much better vs. open topped vehicles. Just a small boost to pyrovores. Works well with the crones flamer as well.

[Halollet]

Pyrovores are so close to being an okay unit. If there was just some way to make sure they appear out of a trygon's tunnel. 3 heavy flamers appearing in your opponents back field is scary. Even if they do nothing, it would force your opponent to scatter away from the tunnel.

They're so close to being good its frustrating. If they had just one of the following then I think they would be worth taking;
- had torrent.
- were beasts.
- were 25 points per model

But I digress, to use them now... Hmmmm.

One way is to hope for the warlord trait that allows you to infiltrate 3 of your units. That way you can outflank them and threaten the sides of the board.

Another way is the trygon tunnel but for that to work you would need a comms array to make sure they come in after the trygon.

Both ways you're leaving it to chance. Less then 50% chance for either plan to work. I guess you could try to get both ways in the same list which isnt that bad really. If both fail you could kepp them in your back field to intercept the enemy line breaker.

There are just so many restrictions wrapped around these guys... Its so frustrating.

[daboarder]

Mystery, Im not being antagonistic, there is simply no reason, rhyme or logical use for the thing, They are currently that useless and superfluous.

Literally all they do is make it easier for your opponent to kill you own bugs.

[Caitsidhe]

My friend Kerstan is a long time bug player and I don't think I've ever seen him use a Pyrovore, not even a a proxy to test it out. He is a very optimistic guy and if even he won't use them, I have my doubts. Looking at their stats I don't see them as being awful in and of themselves. They suffer because, as others have pointed out, you can get more for less with other choices. That has always been a problem for Games Workshop. They can't seem to put a book together without including 2-3 units which have no effective niche. They are obsolete before they ever see the battlefield based entirely on the other units in the book.

I consider this bad business because it ensures they aren't going to sell many of that model. I thought about this bug long and hard before I responded. Not being a bug player, I can't speak with authority. The only thing I can do is "theoryhammer" on how I would use it. I think if I was forced to use it, either by a limited collection or a specific scenario that demanded it, I would run it more or less how Mr. Mystery is describing, i.e. a nice little deterrent to keep certain troops from engaging other troops. I'm not sure how effective that would be since most MC Bugs are deterrents in and of themselves. They are almost always shot to death.

Ideally, I would love to deliver them the same way I do Obliterators. I would love to be able to deep strike them in to flame the crap out of stuff in cover. Sadly, they took away the Bugs version of a Drop Pod and I don't think the Pyrovore could use it even when they hand it. :(

[Anggul]

We all know Pyrovores are the worst thing in the game. No-one is suggesting otherwise. They're just suggesting the way in which they can maybe accomplish something. I repeat: No-one is saying they aren't the worst, they're just saying how you might use them if you really were that dead set on it. Not sure how hard that is to understand.

The ways given by OP in his opening paragraph are well known and were said months ago though, bit of a dead horse. There have been plenty of posts across the internet about Pyrovores all saying pretty much exactly the same thing. Let's just leave it alone.

[CrimsonTurkey]

Perhaps including a number of lone pyrovores in an unbound detachment could provide a decent secondary threat. Nobody is really going to want to waste a unit's shooting at a single pyrovore, but if they are ignored and allowed to flame and charge/explode they could cause a decent amount of damage to infantry. If they do start to focus on that threat, each pyrovore is probably saving a number of gaunts' lives.

[Charon]

Not worth going unbound (and thus losing objective secured) for pyrovores.

[Mr Mystery]

What psychic powers might help Pyrovores? Being a Necron player, I'm not at all familiar with the psychics.

[Path Walker]

Zone Mortallis is the place to use Pyrovores, they're scary as hell in that, hard to shoot until they're in your face and then they get Shred on their attacks, nice little surprise for people.

[CrimsonTurkey]

Not worth going unbound (and thus losing objective secured) for pyrovores.

Perhaps it might work if you're already basing your army on a sky swarm with objective secured gargoyles.

[Mr Mystery]

Good point about Zone Mortalis, or other similarly densely terrained game boards. Any template weapon does well in such environs, and one that can (albeit fairly feebly) fight back is worth considering. And again, the acid blood can potentially pay dividends.

[Anakzar]

The only way I would use them in a game is a behind the lines type game. Where a group infiltrates behind the Tyranid lines looking for the wounded or an artifact of a fallen hero ect... Pyrovores job is to digest the dead enemy for easier consumption by the Hive. And in the fluff they are found eating the fallen away from the heavy fighting. This way they can be used in small points games in a "narrative" fashion ;)

I think that all the tyranid needed was an across the board troop type: BEASTS! ;) It would have not been all that hard to sell after the Eldar run/shoot thing... Back in the days of 2nd Ed tyranid troops/infrantry moved faster than all others... 6 Vs 4 for most. This made up for the overall lack of vehicles to help move the army forwards faster.

[Caitsidhe]

I'm going to suggest something and I'm not being sarcastic. I don't think you will ever make a silk purse out of this sow's ear as far as rules and battlefield application. I do think it is a cool model and that getting the most out of it would be using it for some really cool conversions. It could be taken apart, chop shop style, for individual parts. It could be converted to be used as a unique version of something else. I think that gun removed from it would be splendid as one of the larger shooting weapons on bigger, nastier monsters. I also think the core body of the Pyrovore could be made into some really interesting versions of Tyrant Guard. Where the gun used to emerge from, for example, would be an awesome place to have Lash Whips snaking out in a crazy snarl.

[Eldar_Atog]

I'm going to suggest something and I'm not being sarcastic. I don't think you will ever make a silk purse out of this sow's ear as far as rules and battlefield application.

It could be used but it would require something from both the controller and your opponent. Both would have to be taking 1 or more sub optimal units. Mandrakes, flash gits, flayed ones, etc would then get to be used on a semi regular basis.

Also, how would it do in kill team? Could it redeem itself there?

[Charon]

In kill team you have lots of single models (bad for template).
You can still get shot by more than one model nad if you get killed in melee your acid also will only kill one model.

[Path Walker]

In kill team you have lots of single models (bad for template).
You can still get shot by more than one model nad if you get killed in melee your acid also will only kill one model.

A lot of competitive people I've seen claim kill team is broken because you can just take 50 gretchin, pyrovores would rock against that list on a small board

[Mr Mystery]

If the Grots were all bunched up.....which you would avoid seeing a Heavy Flamer coming their way.

[Charon]

A lot of competitive people I've seen claim kill team is broken because you can just take 50 gretchin, pyrovores would rock against that list on a small board

You still dont need to cluster them up as every Gretchin is a single unit.

[Kargarok]

Man I miss mycetic spores. I only got to try this once before they were written out of the codex, but I shoved a brood of pyrovores into a spore and dropped them onto a unit of ork lootas. Orks really hate flamer templates. They nearly wiped out the squad. it was great. Did they survive the next round of shooting? No but that was one round that those lootas were not shooting at anything else.

Does this help current game play? Well a little bit. With the warlord trait that allows infiltration, you can put these guys closer to their effective range. Even without it they make an effective distraction. Any horde army is going to have to deal with them before they get close, so use that to your own advantage. Make sure they are the ones taking fire, and use your ranged bugs to put the hurt on your foes. Buff them with your psykers to up their survivability and you'll hopefully get a couple rounds keeping the heat off your more important units.