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DeathJester57
08-03-2009, 11:39 AM
What up ya'll.
Quick one for you. Where in the heck do your Marines stand when the petals of the Drop Pod open. Can you stand within 2 inches at the tip of the Drop Pod door, or do you have to remain within 2 inches of the hull? This has gone round and round at my store and I just wanted to hear what ya'll think. A popular tactic at the store during sieze ground missions is to combat squad a unit of Marines in a Drop Pod, drop them between two markers that are about 12 to 15 inches away, and then claim both of them with two five man units.
Thoughts?

Dingareth
08-03-2009, 11:47 AM
What up ya'll.
Quick one for you. Where in the heck do your Marines stand when the petals of the Drop Pod open. Can you stand within 2 inches at the tip of the Drop Pod door, or do you have to remain within 2 inches of the hull? This has gone round and round at my store and I just wanted to hear what ya'll think. A popular tactic at the store during sieze ground missions is to combat squad a unit of Marines in a Drop Pod, drop them between two markers that are about 12 to 15 inches away, and then claim both of them with two five man units.
Thoughts?

Look on page 67 of the BRB and you will see that you measure 2" from the hull, not the deployed doors of a Rhino. If I hinge the doors of my Rhino, the access point does not change, as in it is still measured from the same place, I just have a cool model. Same goes for Drop Pods, the doors have no effect on the game after being dropped, except for giving cover to very small models maybe.

Now then, those are the rules, but I have something personal to say about playing it y'all's way. To say otherwise would make Drop Pods insanely powerful, as they would take up about 13" of table space that your opponent couldn't move into unless he was assaulting. This could pin in tanks and squads that can't hurt the Pods as well as creating a huge area for the Marines to disembark from. Surely y'all thought this was a little over the top...

It's far easier just to glue the doors shut, much easier to transport, paint, and deploy out of, you don't have to worry about balancing those metal models that have a tendency to chip even after being sealed!

The Green Git
08-03-2009, 12:01 PM
A popular tactic at the store during sieze ground missions is to combat squad a unit of Marines in a Drop Pod, drop them between two markers that are about 12 to 15 inches away, and then claim both of them with two five man units.
Thoughts?

Abuse at worst, complete misunderstanding of the rules at best.

Deployment is from the Access Point, not the door. You're changing the footprint of the vehicle mid-game... a no-no.

daggitkiller
08-03-2009, 07:39 PM
Yeah, as a fun/casual/modelling biased player I cringe at this tactic. I think it's right in line with the "you can't deploy from valkaries 'cause they're three inches off the ground" nonsense.

DeathJester57
08-03-2009, 08:43 PM
Thanks for the help all.
This will help a lot with those Marine players in our store who have been using this tactic to their advantage. As an Eldar player, it gets harder and harder to defeat stuff like this all the time.
Thanks again.

Exlorn
08-04-2009, 02:52 PM
Most EPIC abuse ever.

I don't see how anyone could see that played on the tabletop and not FEEL that it was wrong. It seems pretty easy to debunk too. I just had to say that someone is being allowed to play this way blew my mind.

I must know, do they open the doors before they check for scatter too?

Nabterayl
08-04-2009, 03:38 PM
The Green Git is right about the fact that door != access point. However, I don't think that's actually relevant. I think that the relevant fact is that drop pods are Open-Topped, which means that passengers can be deployed anywhere within 2" of the transport's hull. As the door petals are clearly not hull, they don't extend the deployment zone any more than, say, the lowered boarding plank of an open-topped battlewagon does.

It's worth noting, though, that pod doors cause a problem even on this reading. It's actually really hard to deploy a unit in coherency within 2" of the pod's hull if the doors are open, since you aren't allowed to place models (the passengers) on other models (the pod). And even if you can somehow sandwich your models in between door petals so that they're within 2" of the access points, you can't move them without either breaking unit coherency or stepping on the doors, so the unit is immobilized. And good luck getting a dreadnought within 2" of the access point without overlapping the door petals!

So the drop pod model really forces you to break the rules one way or another - by saying that a non-hull part of the model creates a valid deployment zone, that the door petals are hull, or by allowing players to move models over the deployed petals of their drop pods as if they weren't part of the model at all.

Locally we play the third way, on the theory that you don't have to open the doors (any more than, say, you'd have to lower the boarding plank of a battlewagon or trukk), and therefore the third way breaks the rules the least. But it's good sportsmanship to recognize that the drop pod model does present even good faith marine players with a real rules dilemma.

The Plastic Surgeon
08-04-2009, 07:57 PM
Well when you think about it, the doors form a significant part of the pod's hull because all a drop pod is is a big shell/hull that bursts open as opposed to a sealed hull with small doors. Maybe they need to write a special Drop Pod deployment rule to clarify this. I personally find it rather inconvenient to have to deploy all over the shop after coming out of a drop pod and want to be able to form up on one side of the pod or in some kind of formation on landing as opposed to circling the pod.

StrikerFox
08-04-2009, 09:37 PM
basically as nabterayl states, its hard to "follow the rules to the T". i think if you just either keep the doors shut, or dont count the doors, AT ALL as being in existance other than fluff and pretty pretty.. things will go ALOT smoother.. my two bits..

Kloud
08-04-2009, 11:38 PM
I have 3 Drop Pods. 2 of them are scratchbuilt. they have 3 doors that open, and I can actually place a Dread inside. (or a full tac squad) And my third Pod is the GW kit, and the doors open on it as well.

I've always told my opponents right of the hop, The doors count for nothing. This means Enemy models can stand on them, they just need to stay 1" away from Hull.

But, In one situation, The scratchbuilt's door when it opened, the top of the door hit 2 of my opponents models, and he argued that because of that, he was blocking that exit of the model. (he was about 4.5" away from the Hull. I just told him he was an Idiot. (He's also one of my best friends.) But I wonder if anybody had anybody else try that?

Another Problem that arises with the doors, up, or down, is LoS.

My two scratchbuilds which are very Similar to the Forgeworld Dread Drop Pod. you can see right through them. Even the GW Drop Pod you can see through a little bit. but if you leave, or glue the doors up, you completly block line of sight.

But the Doors are supposed to be blown on landing.

So, Do Drop Pods block LoS, or just give 4+ cover saves?

Dingareth
08-05-2009, 05:29 AM
You play it like it says. You get down and look, if you can see it great, if you can't too bad. Can you see through a Drop Pod with the doors up? I certainly can't.

Now, I didn't even think about this when modeling my first 3, I just though, "I'm lazy and don't want to paint the inside, so I'll just glue the doors shut, like GW's website says I can..."

My first game with them was at the Springfield GW, the manager ruled that I could not disembark from my Drop Pods because the models couldn't get out... This was the last time I played at that store.

So in the end, it's a hassle if they're up, it's a hassle if they're down, I glued mine shut because it's easier, so whichever you decide, prepare for ***** giving you a hard time either way.

Nabterayl
08-05-2009, 11:18 AM
I see the argument for "doors = hull," but on balance I still don't like that argument (though I understand The Plastic Surgeon wasn't necessarily advocating it). The doors of a drop pod clearly aren't necessary from a structural integrity standpoint, or the pod would collapse when the doors open. They may form part of the heat shield of the vessel, the hatch of an airliner isn't part of its fuselage, so I don't think drop pod doors get to be classified as part of the pod's hull, notwithstanding the fact that they make up the lion's share of its surface area.

On the other hand, deploying from the hull (or the footprint, if you prefer) of a drop pod doesn't force you to circle it. You can cram nine marines into a 3"x3" block in base to base contact and still have a legal deployment from an open-topped vehicle (c.f. the embarkation/debarkation diagram, which makes it clear that only the barest part of the base has to be within 2").

I agree with Dingareth's answer about LOS, from a technical standpoint. Personally, if I were playing an opponent with glued-shut drop pods, I'd say that they can be seen through but provide a 4+ cover save. The technical answer seems not in the spirit of the game to me. Technically prone models can't see over a half-inch hill, but if I were playing an IG opponent with some prone snipers, I'd allow them to shoot as if they were modeled standing.

Dingareth
08-05-2009, 11:38 AM
Personally, if I were playing an opponent with glued-shut drop pods, I'd say that they can be seen through but provide a 4+ cover save. The technical answer seems not in the spirit of the game to me. Technically prone models can't see over a half-inch hill, but if I were playing an IG opponent with some prone snipers, I'd allow them to shoot as if they were modeled standing.

See, this is where I disagree with you. I glued the doors shut on my Pods, and they block LOS. You glued the doors shut on your Rhinos, whereas in the past I have hinged mine open, and yet I'm not going to try to call LOS through your Rhinos based on other model's I've seen. So just because you can see though other Drop Pods doesn't mean you can ignore these. On the flip side, I can't see though my own Pods either.

Nabterayl
08-05-2009, 11:50 AM
That's very interesting to me. We agree about what the rules say, though.

Out of personal curiosity, what's your preferred personal stance on prone models? Do you play with them as modeled, or do you treat them like I prefer to?

I ask because to me, the question is what the models "would do." If a soldier can't see over a low rise because he's prone, it makes sense to me that he'd stand up (I realize that occasionally this creates problems the other way, but it rarely comes up in games I play). I treat Rhino doors as closed by default because it seems intuitive to me that space marine doctrine would be to close them as soon as possible after opening, lest a stray shot strike the interior of the vehicle without any intervening armor and cause bad things to happen. I treat drop pod doors as open by default because I've never seen anything suggesting that they can close during a battle.

Is your view of drop pods, from a fluff perspective, that they [at least can] re-seal themselves once their passengers disembark? Or is your personal preference just to follow the technical answer?

Dingareth
08-05-2009, 12:46 PM
They're resealable, just not in battle I'd suppose. I just like playing with the black and white you can see it or you can't when it comes to something like that, it keeps the infamous "Well, I WOULD be able to see it..."

On crouched models, we play that they can stand up and everything, but at the same time, if you shoot the enemy, the enemy can shoot you.

The Plastic Surgeon
08-06-2009, 01:00 AM
I see the argument for "doors = hull," but on balance I still don't like that argument (though I understand The Plastic Surgeon wasn't necessarily advocating it). The doors of a drop pod clearly aren't necessary from a structural integrity standpoint, or the pod would collapse when the doors open. They may form part of the heat shield of the vessel, the hatch of an airliner isn't part of its fuselage, so I don't think drop pod doors get to be classified as part of the pod's hull, notwithstanding the fact that they make up the lion's share of its surface area.


Well I'll keep playing devil's advocate here as I haven't really decided on this issue myself. Take a Large modern cargo plane such as the C-5 Galaxy for instance where the whole NOSE opens along with the rear ramp. Are you saying that those movable structural components that definitely are necessary to form a coherent fuselage cannot be considered to BE structurally critical? Now multiple that by several orders of magnitude for a drop pod and imagine that to be a fuselage that quite literally opens up and is held together by a very strong combination of exo and endo skeletal structure and you really have a new class of 'vehicle' that requires a slightly different take on rules as opposed to comparing it to Rhinos.

On that point, I would say that the best approximation of what the doors of the pods would be is that they are in fact hull, albeit hull that doubles as doors and vice versa! Hope that made sense! :)



On the other hand, deploying from the hull (or the footprint, if you prefer) of a drop pod doesn't force you to circle it. You can cram nine marines into a 3"x3" block in base to base contact and still have a legal deployment from an open-topped vehicle (c.f. the embarkation/debarkation diagram, which makes it clear that only the barest part of the base has to be within 2").


Well this is a limitation of the game dynamics. If you imagine a drop pod coming out DOW style, you'd have them circle the pod initially then form up in one direction. Just deploying 2" from the closed pod base looks somewhat silly and underwhelming and deploying in a tight block is just well, silly tactical practice!

This brings us back to requiring special rules for a Drop Pod's disembarkation. They come down, petals open and you deploy either in a perimeter around the open petals at the far edge or you are allowed a consolidation type move on any one facing of the pod in a tactical formation that doesn't bunch you up (they come out of their respective sides of the pod then form up)




I agree with Dingareth's answer about LOS, from a technical standpoint. Personally, if I were playing an opponent with glued-shut drop pods, I'd say that they can be seen through but provide a 4+ cover save. The technical answer seems not in the spirit of the game to me. Technically prone models can't see over a half-inch hill, but if I were playing an IG opponent with some prone snipers, I'd allow them to shoot as if they were modeled standing.

But the thing with 5th Ed is that LOS is literal, the laser LOS finder is there for a reason! Personally I prefer literal LOS as this is a physical miniature game. As far as modeling is concerned, I don't mind of an opponent modeled all of his marines as crouched and therefore I can't see him, but if he wants to shoot at the same time, I'd say bad luck! Get to higher ground! as far as the current rules stand :p It is a fundamental limitation of the game rules and dynamics that causes these problems. If we had to hit modifiers for troops that are declared to be moving in a crouched stance, or prone of flat running, then we don't have to care about LOS to models and would in the spirit of the game accept non-literal LOS for certain instances. Just get it as close as possible. But I can't agree on the closed Pod giving LOS. That said, Pods should not be modeled closed as they remain open until recovery. Another special feature of the drop pod that requires a drop pod rule clarification along with the above!

BuFFo
08-06-2009, 01:53 AM
In my opinion, I would never count the doors open on the floor as the hull.

The marines aren't exiting from a 2 inch piece of metal as if they are teleporting, but instead are leaving from the access points around the drop pod, i.e. the spaces where the doors were when the doors were closed.

Think about it like this...

The rhino has three access points... Would anyone here HONESTLY have an issue with me if I mod my rhino with doors that swing open on the sides 3" out, and then allow me to measure my 2" from the doors and NOT the access point itself, thus giving me almost 6" to deploy my marines?

A hull is a hull, and a door is not a hull. Thats just my opinion. Otherwise I am going to mod a plank on my Dark Eldar Raiders that extend out from the hull 5", and call it 'part of the hull', thus giving me nearly 8" to deploy my Wyches. lol!

The Plastic Surgeon
08-06-2009, 03:05 AM
In my opinion, I would never count the doors open on the floor as the hull.

The marines aren't exiting from a 2 inch piece of metal as if they are teleporting, but instead are leaving from the access points around the drop pod, i.e. the spaces where the doors were when the doors were closed.

Think about it like this...

The rhino has three access points... Would anyone here HONESTLY have an issue with me if I mod my rhino with doors that swing open on the sides 3" out, and then allow me to measure my 2" from the doors and NOT the access point itself, thus giving me almost 6" to deploy my marines?

A hull is a hull, and a door is not a hull. Thats just my opinion. Otherwise I am going to mod a plank on my Dark Eldar Raiders that extend out from the hull 5", and call it 'part of the hull', thus giving me nearly 8" to deploy my Wyches. lol!

I get your point, but with the drop pod, the door IS the hull until it opens! Thus to make things nice and kosher, the Drop Pod should be treated as a separate class of vehicle or in game entity and a prescribed disembarkation sequence.

This doesn't over complicate things by adding extra rules, it clarified something and if written properly will make things smoother.

Dingareth
08-06-2009, 05:36 AM
I get your point, but with the drop pod, the door IS the hull until it opens! Thus to make things nice and kosher, the Drop Pod should be treated as a separate class of vehicle or in game entity and a prescribed disembarkation sequence.

This doesn't over complicate things by adding extra rules, it clarified something and if written properly will make things smoother.

Emphasis mine. Sure, I'll bite and say that the doors are the hull, "until it opens!" So, once it's open, the doors are no longer the hull, so your argument to disembark from them makes no sense! Since they drop down automatically, there will never be a time in the game where they form part of the hull.

So why don't we play it my way- you know, by the rules- until your extra rules and clarifications come down from GW, and then we'll play it that way. Oh wait... the Space Marine "FAQ" has already been released.

The Plastic Surgeon
08-06-2009, 06:23 AM
Emphasis mine. Sure, I'll bite and say that the doors are the hull, "until it opens!" So, once it's open, the doors are no longer the hull, so your argument to disembark from them makes no sense! Since they drop down automatically, there will never be a time in the game where they form part of the hull.

So why don't we play it my way- you know, by the rules- until your extra rules and clarifications come down from GW, and then we'll play it that way. Oh wait... the Space Marine "FAQ" has already been released.

I never suggested that one should disembark from the 'hull turned doors', I have been advocating that drop pods be treated as a new type of vehicle and disembarkation rules written to clarify accordingly. As for playing by the rules, as many have already pointed out, you will be violating the rules by placing a model on top of another or some such if you deployed according to the 'rules' leading to some very strange deployments. So in the meantime, players can negotiate perfectly reasonable house rules before the game if they so wish or bumble around with the rules as they are.

Pretty simple really

DeathJester57
08-06-2009, 08:39 AM
Wow. This is awesome.
I have been printing out all of your replies and showing them to kid who has been playing his "Uber pods of smite" and he keeps arguing the point. He says that they are an integral part of the hull and therefore part of the pod. Do I just snuff him out as a player then and refuse to play him? Or do I continue to batter him about his abuse of the rules concerning his army.
Another thing that happens is when he drops in front of my Dark Reapers, he deploys behind the ramps with 50% of his squad and blasts me with a melta and a combi melta and all of the bolters. He says I don't get cover saves, but he does because half of his unit is behind one of the petals. Makes me nuts. And he is your standard smug faced basement dwelling mouth breather who smells like hot garbage and puke, nerd. Always telling me I am wrong, hanging off my table telling me his opinion and generally being disruptive. Everyone else is cool. But not him. I frakking hate drop pods. Lol.
Is there anything you guys could suggest as far as the cover issue? And should I get an official GW ruling from the Roolz Boyz?
Thanks again. You guys are helping out in a big way.

Dingareth
08-06-2009, 08:45 AM
Been there and done that, I emailed John Spencer to settle something on Warseer months ago, he's the transcript:

Hi there, my gaming group ran in to a bit of a problem with the release of the Drop Pod model.

The scenario is this: I drop a unit of Stenguard Veterans between two Leman Russes, and using combi-meltas, blow one up. The other one is on the opposite side of the Drop Pod, and is immobilized. In my opponets shooting phase, he claimed that he could shoot throught the Drop Pod (which I have modeled with the doors glued shut, because I'm a lazy painter), claiming that he "should" have line of sight to the Sternguard, if I had modeled the doors open. And so my question has a few parts:

a) Must the owner of a Drop Pod model it so that the doors can open?
No.

b) Must the doors be opened upon landing?
No.

c) Can Line of Sight be drawn through a Drop Pod with the doors glued shut?
No.

d) Can Line of Sight be drawn through a scratch built Drop Pod that has no doors, as this was not an issue before the release of the new, plastic model?
No.


Thank you for your help, this is a fiddily rule, but a rather important one when you consider Dreadnaught rear armor and Drop Pods as well. I'm planning to buy a few more Drop Pods for my army, so this would really help my group out to know-

Final note: Normal Drop Pods do not have much area to draw line of sight through. I’ve looked, in most cases you can’t see much of a unit to shoot at. Dreadnought Drop Pods are a different beast. They should have an open interior and be easier to see through, but if you model all your drop pods closed you should be fine. This is a weird situation where players should be working together to find an amicable solution.

Thanks so much John,

However, despite your help we've had another question come up about a different guy who hasn't glued his doors up. So I'd like to know whether of not the doors of a Drop Pod that are folded down count as "Any part of the vehicle" since once it lands it is an open topped vehicle. This would give players a substantially larger area to not only deploy their troops out of a Drop Pod, but also deny a large area of the board to their opponent, until the Drop Pod has been destroyed.

Thanks again, especially since this wasn't covered in the FAQ, we're just wondering what direction to go in with these new models and rules-

Hello,
No. The doors should be ignored, especially for deployment.

Well, that's GW's take on it. But if he acts like you describe, I probably wouldn't waste my time.

The Plastic Surgeon
08-06-2009, 09:09 AM
Another thing that happens is when he drops in front of my Dark Reapers, he deploys behind the ramps with 50% of his squad and blasts me with a melta and a combi melta and all of the bolters.


How can he draw LOS at ground level through his open pod? He's cheating. Take a laser pointing and 'point it out' then blind him with it :p



He says I don't get cover saves, but he does because half of his unit is behind one of the petals. Makes me nuts.


Goes both ways. If he gets a save, YOU get a save! Except if he's like firing over bastion ramparts because you know, they have firing holes! But a pod is no bastion!



And he is your standard smug faced basement dwelling mouth breather who smells like hot garbage and puke, nerd. Always telling me I am wrong, hanging off my table telling me his opinion and generally being disruptive. Everyone else is cool. But not him. I frakking hate drop pods. Lol.
Is there anything you guys could suggest as far as the cover issue? And should I get an official GW ruling from the Roolz Boyz?
Thanks again. You guys are helping out in a big way.

Just stop playing him full stop. Or bring some air freshener cans with the button taped down, spray them with chaos black and apply a stripe of red electrical tape around the circumference and toss them at him. He'd think he's being gassed :D

Dosadi
08-06-2009, 09:41 AM
DeathJester57, it sounds to me like this guy is not worth playing ever again. There are quite a few people at my local store that I do not play for one reason or another and I’m not shy in telling them why. As for him “hanging off your table” if he’s not playing the game then he should keep his mouth shut. Again, you sometimes have to be assertive and tell these people very firmly to play their own games, not other’s. He has no right to disrupt a game he not playing.

As far as the cover issue, I have two suggestions. First would be putting a Tempest Launcher on your Reaper Exarch and giving him Crack Shot. Re-roll wounds and no cover saves allowed. Second you could always claim you get a cover save because he is technically shooting through a unit. If he disputes that then just casually say “Ok, so I get a 5+ cover save.” As that is how the rule for disputed cover saves is meant to be resolved in the rules. I would recommend you re-read the rules for cover on pages 21-22 of the rulebook. There are quite a few good examples in here that might help your argument.

However, I would just refuse to play this guy anymore. If he asks you why just say “Because this is a game and the object of the game is to have fun. When I play you I don’t have fun, so I’ve decided to no longer play you.”

Keep it polite. Don’t get dragged into a confrontation because he will try to attack you for being scared to play him, or that you don’t understand the game. Just let him know that you’ve decided to play other people who are more interested in having a good time than winning the game.

If he’s that big a jerk, then try to find allies in your LGS who feel the same way. Peer pressure can go a long way in changing a player’s attitude. If enough people stop playing this guy then he will either stop showing up or he might actually change (less-likely).

Hope some this advice helps. I know it's worked for me in the past.:D


Dosadi

BuFFo
08-06-2009, 09:53 AM
I get your point, but with the drop pod, the door IS the hull until it opens!

So how is that any different than my rhino or raider example? The rhino's door ARE the hull untill it opens, just like your drop pod, and the radier's boarding plank would lay flat on the raider's platform until it is extended.

Either way, its the same thing.

The doors are just not part of the hull.

This is wishful thinking, otherwise, 6' deployment from my rhinos, here I come!

darknite
08-06-2009, 10:01 AM
How can he draw LOS at ground level through his open pod? He's cheating. Take a laser pointing and 'point it out' then blind him with it :p



Goes both ways. If he gets a save, YOU get a save! Except if he's like firing over bastion ramparts because you know, they have firing holes! But a pod is no bastion!



Just stop playing him full stop. Or bring some air freshener cans with the button taped down, spray them with chaos black and apply a stripe of red electrical tape around the circumference and toss them at him. He'd think he's being gassed :D

What do you mean it goes both ways? A unit can certainly fire over cover, gain it's benefits while denying those benefits to its' target. Trace the LOS from the models' eyes. If the majority of the target unit can be completely viewed by the firing unit the then it's not in cover (unless firing through more than 2" of area cover). There's no reciprocal cover rule.

BuFFo
08-06-2009, 10:18 AM
Darknite is correct.

The Plastic Surgeon
08-06-2009, 07:49 PM
So how is that any different than my rhino or raider example? The rhino's door ARE the hull untill it opens, just like your drop pod, and the radier's boarding plank would lay flat on the raider's platform until it is extended.

Either way, its the same thing.

The doors are just not part of the hull.

This is wishful thinking, otherwise, 6' deployment from my rhinos, here I come!

Because a Rhino or Land Raider is structurally fundamentally NOT like a Pod. A Rhino or LR is not comprised of large hull panels that open leaving very little to the imagination so to speak whereas a pod does. That's why I''ve been arguing that it should get special rules to clarify. At do no point did I advocate 6" deployment from it or from vehicles with actual doors in the original sense of the word!

But we DO agree that once it lands and pops its hull open, those hull panels (petals) should count as doors.

;)

The Plastic Surgeon
08-06-2009, 07:56 PM
What do you mean it goes both ways? A unit can certainly fire over cover, gain it's benefits while denying those benefits to its' target. Trace the LOS from the models' eyes. If the majority of the target unit can be completely viewed by the firing unit the then it's not in cover (unless firing through more than 2" of area cover). There's no reciprocal cover rule.

I should've worded my reply better. I was proposing that as a half way remedy for his situation with the firing through an open drop pod and denying the receiver a cover save as a drop pod is more like intervening cover unlike that of an ad hoc or prepared position (thus the bastion rampart reference) whereby the firing unit is right next to it and peeping out to fire AROUND the actual cover as in real life.

The way he has described it, it seems to me that half the drop pod's unit is standing behind the drop pod some inches back and just praying and spraying so to speak through the pod. IF they're actually bunch up around it and can still draw LOS from the model's eyes to the target unit that is majority out of cover, then the drop pod should not give the recipients a cover save.

I hope I've made myself a bit more clearer this time :)

Nabterayl
08-06-2009, 08:27 PM
I don't personally have a problem with opponents using the petals of their pods to give a one-way cover save, provided they've positioned their models correctly to do so. I don't think that part of your opponent's plan is cheesy at all. The idea that the pods are an integral part of the hull when open and thus the deployment zone of a drop pod is over a foot in diameter ... I agree that strikes me as just bad sportsmanship.

Kloud
09-07-2009, 11:54 AM
I was just lookin at my rule books, and this is the conclusion I've come too.

I believe the best way to treat a Drop Pod, is as Area Terrain. until it is wrecked, as Wrecked vehicles provide a 4+ cover save.

Vince
09-07-2009, 04:18 PM
How do you deploy guys from a drop pod if the doors dont open? Are you trying to say that the doors open while you deploy then go back up to block line of sight? This doesnt sound right to me.

rsheridan5
09-07-2009, 07:07 PM
I was just lookin at my rule books, and this is the conclusion I've come too.

I believe the best way to treat a Drop Pod, is as Area Terrain. until it is wrecked, as Wrecked vehicles provide a 4+ cover save.

I have to agree with this, except that only the doors should be considered area terrain. The rules for Drop Pods aren't clear, but we can use common sense.
The LOS and unit deploymet takes care of cover saves.
The doors are ramps, and should be to game play as though they were flat ground, after all thier, entire purpose once opened is to assist in deplyment. Two inches from the hull (the main body) will include about 1 to 1.5 inches of the ends of the ramp.
Realism is often ignored for convenience or some attempt at super units like the 12 inch hull described above. The fact is that Space Marines wouldn't avoid the ramps while deploying into a combat environment!
The flipside of that is that enemy units should be able to walk on them as well, like I said... they should count as flat ground.

ggg
09-08-2009, 09:32 AM
Having played with entirely drop pod marine armies, including in tournament play, I know that drop pods cause huge problems. As time can be short I recommend not arguing about the rules and I taking the following approach:

Rule 1. Agree with your opponent at the onset one of the following:
a) The petals are ignored for all points, are not difficult terrain, deployment is within 2" of the hull base
0r
b) The petals count as difficult terrain for both sides.

Anything else just does not work and will spoil a game. Option b slows down the game considerably.

Rule 2. Agree one of the following:
a) Both sides can draw true line of sight through a drop pod but noting that a 4+ cover save will almost always be applicable.
or
b) No line of sight can be drawn through the drop pod.

These points should then be confirmed when you are confirming the terrain:

It is not sportsmanlike to argue that the petals form a ramp like the land raider assault ramp to provide you with a greater range of deployment.

Passengers can move onto the petals and you will not argue that opponents can't move within an inch of the petals.

As the vehicle is open topped it is irrelevant as to whether the petals will open to enable you to deploy your passengers. You must simply be able to deploy your models within 2" of the base of the vehicle hull base.

If needs be - if your opponent is an oik etc, blu tak the doors shut in front of them and say 'problem sorted.'


Separately - There is the thorny issue of whether a drop pod can shoot on the turn it arrives as it is 'immobilised' on arrival and is therefore immobilised before the shooting phase (as well as for combat)--or whether, like a land speeder, it cannot shoot as it counts as moving over combat speed.

Any thoughts?

Dingareth
09-09-2009, 11:23 AM
How do you deploy guys from a drop pod if the doors dont open? Are you trying to say that the doors open while you deploy then go back up to block line of sight? This doesnt sound right to me.

So then, how do you deploy from your Rhino's then? I hope you've modeled all the doors to open. Otherwise it doesn't sound right to me that you can get out... It's an abstraction people.

Also, A Drop Pod cannot shoot the turn it arrives because it moved at Cruising Speed in the previous movement phase- has nothing to do with being immobilized or not.

RexScarlet
09-10-2009, 10:35 AM
removed