Sneaky GW?

[ColCorbane]

Here's an interesting one, I've got a friend who's been playing nids for the past 18 months and has decided to sell them after seeing the new codex. Now, he bought the army painted but he says that GW has downgraded a lot of what he's got and all the good stuff are new releases. He's selling it because he can't paint to the standard of the army and therefore can't add any of the new units and so he feels the army isn't as competitive as before.

Now, it got me thinking, I can't comment on space wolves but they did the same with guard. A lot of the existing units got downgraded and all the good stuff (valks, hellound varients, russ varients etc) was new releases. It got me thinking if this was a sales ploy to ensure those who already had that army can't just buy the new codex but have to buy the new models to stay competitive.

I've looked through the old guard codex's and they're mainly the same, just updated the rules / points to fit with the current editions rules.

What are your thoughts guys?

[gcsmith]

not really sneaky, i mean the pyrovore is crap

[Duke]

Here is what I don't get... When a new technology comes out, say something like when Xbox made its 360 people were all excited about the new things that they could do with it. I am sure Microsoft wasn't saying "Lets release a new product that is the same as the previous one!" The same is true with GW. They release a new product... Call it Tyranids 360. lol. Did they sit there like some kind of supervillan plotting your wallets demise? No. BUt I don't think they said "Lets release a new product that is the same as the previous one.

Long story short, yes they want to make money with a new release, but so does every other company.

Duke

[DoctorEvil]

Here's an interesting one, I've got a friend who's been playing nids for the past 18 months and has decided to sell them after seeing the new codex. Now, he bought the army painted but he says that GW has downgraded a lot of what he's got and all the good stuff are new releases. He's selling it because he can't paint to the standard of the army and therefore can't add any of the new units and so he feels the army isn't as competitive as before.


Geez, that seems like an huge overreaction. Shouldn't he actually try and play a handful of games before dumping the army? He's going to feel pretty silly if in 3-6 months the new "standard" for Nid armies is the one he just ebay'd.

[Aldramelech]

Goodbye

[ColCorbane]

Geez, that seems like an huge overreaction. Shouldn't he actually try and play a handful of games before dumping the army? He's going to feel pretty silly if in 3-6 months the new "standard" for Nid armies is the one he just ebay'd.

I don't think it's an over reaction, he's a strong competitive player who always makes it into the finals of the UK GT and places well. So when he says that the army can't compete anymore without the new models, I have to take that as a thought out comment and not an over reaction.

I know that companies release new products to make money, but microsoft didn't make the xbox redundant when they released the 360. I must admit, I'm nowhere near the tactician he is, but looking at my guard, if I didn't take the new options, I don't think I'd be able to compete against the new wolves or nids.

[Ordo]

yea. you know gw is a company. they still have to pay there employee's so they do need to make money. and alot of the old nid units from last codex do work good with the new one.

[LadasN]

I have read through the new codex and played a few games running swarms and monsterous creatures in the same army. I used to play the last edition too. While alot of my strategy has changed to fit the codex, I can still win alot of the games I play with them. The new models will always seem better than the old ones because the old ones are adjusted where as the new models are new with little to no comparison. Its more I need to change my strategy then o teh noes my old models suck cuz they changed how u play with them.

[DoctorEvil]

I don't think it's an over reaction, he's a strong competitive player who always makes it into the finals of the UK GT and places well. So when he says that the army can't compete anymore without the new models, I have to take that as a thought out comment and not an over reaction.

I know that companies release new products to make money, but microsoft didn't make the xbox redundant when they released the 360. I must admit, I'm nowhere near the tactician he is, but looking at my guard, if I didn't take the new options, I don't think I'd be able to compete against the new wolves or nids.


That's kind of the nature of the game. 40K is not a "static" game. We're on our 5th edition of the ruleset and we'll see a 6th edition in a few years. If you're a champion caliper Monopoly or Chess player, I could see where people would be angry, but the nature of this game is change.

Don't get me wrong, as an owner of 3 Carnifex models, I'm not a big fan of the new Nid Codex. But it is what it is. The edition/codex changes almost always bring the obsolence (either forced or because there is something more efficient) of old models that are replaced by something "new". Most of the games I play do this....I've gone through 4 editions od Dungeons & Dragons and associated replacement of core rulebooks, supplements & adventures. I went through several cycles of Magic the Gathering expansions and the associated block changes and card obsolence.

Honestly, most of these companies wouldn't still be in business if they didn't change the game around periodically.

[Gir]

All I got from this thread was that someones complaining because a company he's contributed absolutly no money too has change some of it's products...

[LadasN]

That's kind of the nature of the game. 40K is not a "static" game. We're on our 5th edition of the ruleset and we'll see a 6th edition in a few years. If you're a champion caliper Monopoly or Chess player, I could see where people would be angry, but the nature of this game is change.

Don't get me wrong, as an owner of 3 Carnifex models, I'm not a big fan of the new Nid Codex. But it is what it is. The edition/codex changes almost always bring the obsolence (either forced or because there is something more efficient) of old models that are replaced by something "new". Most of the games I play do this....I've gone through 4 editions od Dungeons & Dragons and associated replacement of core rulebooks, supplements & adventures. I went through several cycles of Magic the Gathering expansions and the associated block changes and card obsolence.

Honestly, most of these companies wouldn't still be in business if they didn't change the game around periodically.

I agree with this having also gone through several MTG cycles (though the group I was in wasn't strict on that and we all used old cards anyway, my best deck is from nemesis =O).

Another thing about the army your friend has, why did he buy a preconstructed army if he couldn't paint to its standards? He must have known that a new edition would roll around and change things eventually.

[Papa Nurgle]

I chuckled at the marketing genius of the Bugs. It happened with the other codices, but with the Tyranids, GW made it obvious. The Carnifex was downgraded, and the Trygon got pushed. Also...the fact that an army of 'Nids can have 83 Tyranid Warrior models means that you would need 28 boxes of them @ $35 a box. Just the warriors alone would run $980.

[Gir]

I chuckled at the marketing genius of the Bugs. It happened with the other codices, but with the Tyranids, GW made it obvious. The Carnifex was downgraded, and the Trygon got pushed. Also...the fact that an army of 'Nids can have 83 Tyranid Warrior models means that you would need 28 boxes of them @ $35 a box. Just the warriors alone would run $980.

Yeah, how blatant of GW to try and sell a model that invest tens of thousands of pounds into.

[gcsmith]

At release with new models, games workshop make very little profit due to the molds and labour of sculpting, Its after release, maybe a year later that they start making profit, Also Wat i find is u seem to say your friend doesnt find them competative because he cant paint to the armies standard, well thats not GW being sneaky.

[david5th]

Here's an interesting one, I've got a friend who's been playing nids for the past 18 months and has decided to sell them after seeing the new codex. Now, he bought the army painted but he says that GW has downgraded a lot of what he's got and all the good stuff are new releases. He's selling it because he can't paint to the standard of the army and therefore can't add any of the new units and so he feels the army isn't as competitive as before.

Now, it got me thinking, I can't comment on space wolves but they did the same with guard. A lot of the existing units got downgraded and all the good stuff (valks, hellound varients, russ varients etc) was new releases. It got me thinking if this was a sales ploy to ensure those who already had that army can't just buy the new codex but have to buy the new models to stay competitive.

I've looked through the old guard codex's and they're mainly the same, just updated the rules / points to fit with the current editions rules.

What are your thoughts guys?
I do not feel he has the right to moan given that its an army he neither brougt from GW, painted or construsted himself.It's the equivalent of buying a PC second hand and them moaning you cannot play modern games on it and that you wished you had bought better second hand one later.

DOES NOT COMPUTE.

[RogueGarou]

It's not sneaky or in any way underhanded, mean, et cetera. It is just business. A lot of people moan and get upset because they see this is not that and that is the new orange or whatever else happens to be the gripe of the day. Not long ago, people were upset because the Tyranids were running a Codex from an older edition and some items were no longer valid, Thornback for instance.

A lot of things are going to boil down to perception. Some people look at the Carnifex as being all-powerful in the last edition and not so much in the new edition. The Chaos Codicii have gone through different iterations and each one has been a bit different. 2E was all-inclusive of all things Chaos; Marines, Daemons, Cultists, recently fallen Marines, everything was available to the player. The first 3E Codex was just Chaos Marines and some flavor thrown in. Personally, I did not like 3E at all and barely played the game at all during that time. I hated the direction of the new small Codex with practically no fluff in the book. I guess people agreed that having twice as many Codicii with half as many pages was a bad idea because that model changed for 4E and 5E. The second 3E/4E Chaos Marines Codex was all about the Traitor Legions. Good Codex and I played many a game and built a lot of armies based on various Legions. The 5E Codex is mostly about recently turned Marines, the Red Corsairs with a smattering of more veteran Marines dashed about.

The Tyranids are looking at the same thing. Different Codicii represent different hive fleets and splinter fleets as well as different mutation of the species as they assimilate more of the species of this galaxy. 2E was the initial hive fleet incursions into this galaxy. 3E was a permutation of the initial attackers. 4E was a major advance with the influx of the new biomass and genetic material. 5E is another variation of this. It also allowed the introduction of new models, certainly. I have been around and played against Nids for a long time. In fact, my very first game of 40k was against a Nids army. I thought most of the old models were goofy and weak looking. I like the newer look quite a bit more but still, I think a classic Carnifex would look cool mixed in along with the newer ones. A genetic deviation that got mixed in with the new creations, sort of an evolutionary throwback.

Some people complain about Stormtroopers being the worst thing ever in the Guard Codex. That is their perception. Until last year, I was the only person I had ever run into, or anyone else in the local gaming groups, who used mortars in an Imperial Guard army. I am still the only one who uses Rough Riders. A lot of people see them as sub-par or worthless. It all depends on how you use them. If your friend expects one army list to rule all lists, then he is going to have to play one list, one opponent list, one rules edition and nothing will ever change. At that point, why bother playing at all since it is a foregone conclusion what will happen and when?

All I can say about buying painted models is this. If you buy a pro-painted army but can't paint well, then practice or pay someone to paint new stuff to match what you have. If you bought a car painted Andretti Red and ding the door, you can not reasonably expect McDonald's Red to match the paint job when you touch up the ding. He can either paint new models with the same color scheme as the rest of the army and do his best and get on with having fun, throw away all of the fun he can have playing the game, have someone else paint new minis for him, or repaint the existing models as well as new ones. I'm stripping nearly every single model I have because I am only really happy with a few of them. I am certainly not quitting the game.

Tell your buddy to man up, kick back and relax, and enjoy the game. No one is going to care what his Nids look like unless he is trying to win painting competitions or best looking army in tourneys. And if he is doing that, he is a hoser for having not painted the army himself. Also, tell him Simple Green is awesome for removing paint from minis. Buy a bottle of that and give the minis a long bath and a little scrubbing and he can make them look like whatever he wants if it is that big of a deal. I don't think it is but again, there is that perception thing. He should just buy the new book and get down to the serious part, playing games and having a blast. Life is way, way too short to sweat little things like what opinion someone else has of his toy soldiers paint job. Me, I'm more worried about whether or not I think I can beat his army that how pretty they are. My lasguns and boltguns try to reap both the pretty and not so pretty equally.

[Melissia]

Long story short, yes they want to make money with a new release, but so does every other company.

DukeHey look, there's someone in here that understands the basic concepts of capitalism!

[Stormlord Aeirling]

Originally Posted by ColCorbane View Post
Here's an interesting one, I've got a friend who's been playing nids for the past 18 months and has decided to sell them after seeing the new codex. Now, he bought the army painted but he says that GW has downgraded a lot of what he's got and all the good stuff are new releases. He's selling it because he can't paint to the standard of the army and therefore can't add any of the new units and so he feels the army isn't as competitive as before.

Now, it got me thinking, I can't comment on space wolves but they did the same with guard. A lot of the existing units got downgraded and all the good stuff (valks, hellound varients, russ varients etc) was new releases. It got me thinking if this was a sales ploy to ensure those who already had that army can't just buy the new codex but have to buy the new models to stay competitive.

I've looked through the old guard codex's and they're mainly the same, just updated the rules / points to fit with the current editions rules.

What are your thoughts guys?

Well, this isn't entirely true.

The only models from the old tyranid range that aren't really effective any more are carnifexes, which can be converted into tervigons and hive tyrants to bring them up to standard.

Sure, a few of your old models may need a bit of a weapons swap, but aside from that its still all good to play.

I mean, gaunts, genestealers, hive tyrants, warriors, lictors, and zoanathropes are still potent just like they used to be. Most of the old models aren't that outsourced by the new codex.

[Dark_Templar]

Here is what I don't get... When a new technology comes out, say something like when Xbox made its 360 people were all excited about the new things that they could do with it. I am sure Microsoft wasn't saying "Lets release a new product that is the same as the previous one!" The same is true with GW. They release a new product... Call it Tyranids 360. lol. Did they sit there like some kind of supervillan plotting your wallets demise? No. BUt I don't think they said "Lets release a new product that is the same as the previous one.

Long story short, yes they want to make money with a new release, but so does every other company.

Duke

You know Microsoft ARE supervillains who only plot your wallet (and Operating System's) demise...

[oni]

While I could see this happening, I don't think it's the case. I think it would be far to hard to accomplish.

GW has, as a whole, changed the dynamics of the game to be more balanced, both in the new core rules and in the new codices. Naturally, some combos and power units / weapons will be altered and / or changed to bring things into balance in a new rules environment. With every new core rule edition there is going to be a shift in army composition, there's no avoiding it.

[imperialsavant]

Here's an interesting one, I've got a friend who's been playing nids for the past 18 months and has decided to sell them after seeing the new codex. Now, he bought the army painted but he says that GW has downgraded a lot of what he's got and all the good stuff are new releases. He's selling it because he can't paint to the standard of the army and therefore can't add any of the new units and so he feels the army isn't as competitive as before.

Now, it got me thinking, I can't comment on space wolves but they did the same with guard. A lot of the existing units got downgraded and all the good stuff (valks, hellound varients, russ varients etc) was new releases. It got me thinking if this was a sales ploy to ensure those who already had that army can't just buy the new codex but have to buy the new models to stay competitive.

I've looked through the old guard codex's and they're mainly the same, just updated the rules / points to fit with the current editions rules.

What are your thoughts guys?

:confused: No cant agree with his thoughts as my Valhallan IG Army comprises all the old original metal models & all I have added is a new HQ squad, a Valkyrie & a FW Vanquisher.
Still got the old Leeman Russ's, Chimeras, Basilisks etc. Dont intend to take any of the new special characters except Pask & I can supply a model for him.

I thinks his main problem is he dosent want to try painting new models. Perhaps he should pay someone to do the painting for him. :rolleyes:

[Gir]

:confused: No cant agree with his thoughts as my Valhallan IG Army comprises all the old original metal models & all I have added is a new HQ squad, a Valkyrie & a FW Vanquisher.
Still got the old Leeman Russ's, Chimeras, Basilisks etc. Dont intend to take any of the new special characters except Pask & I can supply a model for him.

I thinks his main problem is he dosent want to try painting new models. Perhaps he should pay someone to do the painting for him. :rolleyes:

I think it's more of an excuse for not wanting to buy new models :rolleyes:

[N0rdicNinja]

GW is a rather large Corporation, not some start up game company run by post-grads. Every decision they make, including game design decisions, will be made with profits at the highest priority. Game balance and your satisfaction come second if they know you'll spend the money either way.

While the designers have been doing a decent job with the restrictions placed on them by the people in charge of their paychecks, it should come as no surprise that a lot of design choices are made with the direct intent of forcing you to put up the cash to compete.

It's the same reason why they made Troop choices your only option for scoring units in 5th, it forces the Meta to be more troop dependent which in turn forces people to go out and purchase more then the minimum allotment of troops. They also hiked up the prices of all the troop boxes with the release of 5th, coincidence?

Twenty years ago I would feel jaded about something like this out of GW, but once again, GW is Corporate now, and maxing out profits is the way of life.