Are the Eldar actually good guys?

[YorkNecromancer]

I've noticed a few people on BoLS who regard the idea of the good Eldar allying with the evil Dark Eldar to be utterly beyond the pale.

Why would the good Eldar work with their evil, evil cousins? That would never happen in real life. I mean, the idea that the Eldar and Dark Eldar could ally is as ridiculous as the CIA sponsoring the Taleban…

Oh, wait.

That happened, didn't it? Okay, poor example. But it's as ridiculous as heroically democratic Americans and the evil brainwashed communist Soviets fighting alongside one another against…

Oh wait. WW2.

Yes, I'm being a little facetious, but the point that mutually hostile forces unite for a variety of complex political reasons is a good one, because in real-life, it happens all the time. This is before we even get down to the idea that allies are those who are at least somewhat like us... And what other species out there is really like the Eldar? The humans don't come close, the idea of similarities with the Orks is a joke, and as for those little blue bullet-proof shiel… sorry, and as for the Tau? Well, they're just so sweet, but children remain children and royalty remains royalty. Maybe the Necrons, but the idea of existing as a soulless reanimated metal revenant is probably the worst thing an Eldar can imagine. You know, Wraithbone's okay, but not metal.

No-one's like the Eldar but the Eldar, and the idea the two factions of their ancient species wouldn't work together is something about the community that always surprises me. It might be because I remember 1st edition, where every species/faction was unremittingly evil, but I always assumed that the Eldar were (and are) one of the most unpleasant species out there, 'Dark' or not. They certainly were when I was growing up: a highly intelligent, scientifically advanced species, with powers of precognition and foresight, who use that power exclusively for their own survival, content to burn away billions of other sentient beings if it means they get Just One More Day... See, that doesn't sound like good guys to me. Yes, the Eldar don't have the Power From Pain rules their 'Dark' cousins do to codify their malevolence, but they are a species who practise the ritual sacrifice of their own: that Avatar has to come from somewhere. And as for the necromantic practises that lead to the Wraith constructs; murdering a twin, leaving their sibling wracked with grief and forced to spend their life psychically linked to their dead memory... all so your Wraithknight has a pilot? Is your species not advanced enough to find any other way to pilot a giant mech?

The Eldar are pretty dark. Maybe not, "BWAHAHAHAHAHAA I'M SOOOOO EVILLLL…" like the cartoonish villainy of the Dark Eldar, but actually dark – the kind of people who can set aside ethics in the name of necessity, no matter what.

Now, I'm sure there will be a solid discussion about this below, so there are some assumptions about the Eldar 'being good' that should to be considered as well.

1.) The Eldar race is worthy of survival.
Well, what does 'worthy' mean? Yeah, every sentient being is worthy of survival, but we've established: the Eldar are prejudiced against every other race. They're the KKK with pointy ears, happy to let any other sentient species die if it means they live. Understandable? Definitely. Darwinian? Sure. Morally right?
I did what I had to do.
It was for the greater good.
These deaths/crimes are justified by greater need.
Know who says things like that a lot?
The bad guy in everything ever. These are villain words. Someone who talks about 'greater good' implies there is a 'lesser evil', and that this 'lesser' evil must be tolerated, because Reasons.

2.) The Eldar race's ancient knowledge cannot afford to be lost.
Why not?
It's not like they care about anyone else's ancient knowledge; the Necrons are older and have easily as advanced technology – if we lost the Eldar, there'd be plenty of knowledge left out there. Does simply being good at something justify your existence? Does it allow you to kill those without said knowledge if it helps you survive?
Not in a whole, law-of-the-jungle way: in an 'I'm the good guy and I want to help save lives' way.

3.) The Eldar are clearly good guys because they're attractive.
There's a reason the heroes are usually attractive and the villains deformed. There's a reason if you've got facial deformities or scars people will mock or attack you. We're simple creatures as a species, and we tend to trust beauty and distrust ugliness. Eldar have elegance and aesthetics on their side; they don't look as horrid as the other species in 40K, and they're not as overtly fascist as the Imperium, so they must be the good guys, right?

4.) They don't do it deliberately; it's the nature of the 40K universe that forces their hand.
Is that enough? To premeditatedly force the other species and factions into galaxy-spanning wars of conquest, force-evolving the Tau to their current technological high-point to act as a buffer against the horrors out there, forcing them to die instead of precious, precious Eldar?

5.) They're not called Dark Eldar.
True. But just because your brother's the one who's a serial killer, does that mean your crimes get a free pass?

Ultimately, the Eldar creed boils down to 'necessity justifies that which is right'. They're just doing what they have to. They have to survive, because it is the duty of all life to survive.

Is this enough for us to call them 'good guys'? Not 'by comparison'. Actual, honest-to-Throne good guys.

Are they actually that different to the Dark Eldar? Oh, sure, they don't torture needlessly (because including the qualifier 'needlessly' makes it okay?) like their Dark iterations, but they do kill. A lot. Of innocents. For themselves.

Would Spiderman choose to push a planet of a hundred billion souls into the path of a Hive Fleet if it meant he got to spend another day with Mary-Jane? Would we call him a hero if he did? How about Batman? At his darkest, at his absolute worst, would he do that? Would the Doctor, or Superman? Would they sacrifice a planet of innocents if it meant they got their respective homeworlds back? Could they look at themselves in the mirror afterwards if they did?

So, simple enough really:

Are the Eldar the good guys? Not compared to the other species. Compared to whatever standard of morality as you choose to define it, whether that be true pacifist selflessness, or brute, self-serving, Darwinian mechanics.

[Mr Mystery]

Eldar are essentially entirely self interested gits.

Seriously, consider what is actually more evil? A slave raid by Dark Eldar, or Craftworld Eldar mucking about with fate to ensure the rise of Ghazghkull? You know, the Ork that has rampaged around the Imperium.

Both are/were done to ensure Eldar survival. Frankly, I find Dark Eldar the lesser of the two evils, simply because their actions are honest.

[YorkNecromancer]

Totally agree. They're monsters, but they don't pretend to be anything else. You know where you stand with a Dark Eldar - behind the barrel of the most dakka you can find, saving the last round for yourself.

[Mr Mystery]

Plus, you know that Dark Eldar offering to help will definitely betray you.

Craftworld Eldar? They're up to something. Every time. No such thing as altruism. They're arrogant in the extreme, and to me even more so than Dark Eldar.

Consider the Black Library. Good Lord the good that could be done with that. But what they do? Sit on it. Hoard it. None others can possibly be trusted with it. After all, they're The Eldar. They know best. It's not like they birthed a Chaos God from their own hubris. Oh. Wait.

Douchebags I tells ya!

[YorkNecromancer]

To be fair, I'm sure those harlequins know just what they're doing.

I'd trust a man in a grinning metal mask whose official title is 'Death Jester' any day of the week.

I mean, not that I'd have a choice about trusting him or not...

[Cap'nSmurfs]

You've hit the nail on the head, YorkN.

[Harley]

Good post. It should be obvious to students of history, as you have suggested, that the Eldar are pragmatists and in the darkness of the distant future there are no good guys. In fact, in any war there are no good guys, today, yesterday and tomorrow. The Allied troops may have liberated Europe but they bombed a lot of towns and killed a lot of civilians doing it, which doesn't even begin to cover the Pacific theatre. War can be unavoidable, seem necessary, and facilitate great changes... but it is never "good".

[Mr Mystery]

Indeed. Ever found it odd how the good guys always win? Which is a crude way of pointing out history is written by the victors, 100% of the time.

But with Craftworld Eldar? There's always a high price. It may not manifest in the lifetimes of anyone who will remember their intervention. Heck, it might happen in a completely different sector. But it's there. And it's not the Eldar paying it, not if they can possibly avoid it.

As for the various Kins of Eldar fighting together? I covered that in a different thread, pointing out my general loathing for my cousin. But as much as I can't stand the twonk, he remains family, and thus I would help him if he needed it. We're diametrically opposed otherwise, but family is family, blood is blood, and you stand together when the chips are down. Sorry, I know that went a bit Eastenders, but it's true.

Imagine if you will that for seemingly no reason, Craftworld, Dark, Corsair and Exodite band together for an attack somewhere. Who knows the motivations? Easy. Farseer has scried the futures, and identified a threat to one, other or all which can be easily averted just by acting together now. In return for support of the Dark Kin, it's agreed any and all survivors of the enemy are there's to do with as they wish. Blind eye is turned, because it's preferable that lower beings suffer horrendously than Farseer Bob actually spills that really nice glass of wine in 500 years time, especially because that glass of really nice wine will leave a horrible stain on the carpet that he uses for scrying.

[YorkNecromancer]

'Me against my brother; my brother and I against our father; my father and I against my uncle; my uncle and I against the stranger.'

[Mr Mystery]

Yuparoo.

And that to me is the endearing thing about 40k. Nobody is on anyone's side. Quite often, not even their own. Without going rogue, Chapters of Marines will fight amongst themselves, usually over honour. Chaos? Like Skaven in Warhammer, if they could just stop infighting and undermining each other, they'd have flattened the Imperium millenia ago. Orks? Only stop fighting each other when there's someone else to beat up, and even then it still happens. Eldar? Craftworlds all seem to think they and they alone know best. Imperial Guard? Who knows! Inquisition? Different factions, different ethos within the factions. Even Tyranids will devour each other, though arguably for the best of reasons (actually aids their constant evolution!). Tau? Not much so far, at least not that they're letting on. But Farsight? Likely just the tip of the iceberg.

No other game system that I'm aware of has such blurred lines within it. And I love it. All of it. It adds narrative depth like nobodies business.

Classic example? Imperium fights as a single entity on a given planet, against a Chaos Incursion. Fleet, IG, Marines, Sisters, Inquisition, Knight, everyone. Imperium triumphs. Inquisition promptly slaughter the Guard, or at best send them off to a penal world, Space Marines get mind wiped (even Blood Angels, the one progenitor Chapter we know to have resisted the call of Khorne!), Sisters? I think they get killed off as well. Knights? Possibly mind wiped, as akin to Marines, they're too rare a resource just to slot because gribblies.

[This Dave]

Actually, NO race in the 40K universe is what anyone would call "good". Even the Tau who are the only race that tolerates other races only does so as long as those races accept them as overlords. All the other races are xenophobic to the extreme, only letting others live as long as they're strong enough to stop themselves from being killed.

Weirdly only Tyranids and Orks are the only ones that could be considered neutral. Tyranids exist only to feed and Orks exist only to fight. Everyone else want to rule and/or burn burn the galaxy.

[YorkNecromancer]

Orks exist only to fight.

Well, that and winnin'.

Also mukkin' about.

[Mr Mystery]

But mostly fightin'. Because if you is not fightin', you is mukkin' about. And Orks always win. Everyone knows that. (it's actually becoming a personal philosophy of mine, because it's a great frame of mind!)

[euansmith]

YorkNecromancer, I do wish the forum had a like button.

Only the winners are good, only the losers are bad. It was ever thus. And the "reasons" why a war was fought often only becomes clear when the history books get written.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y8VCbvMoCV8

[DaveTycho]

The Eldar would think of themselves as the good guys.

[eldargal]

Also remember Eldar (both types) are the ultimate racial supremacists. They believe Eldar are superior. Dark Eldar might target Craftworlders sometimes but they will side with Eldar over non-Eldar simply because to do otherwise would be like siding with beef against the butcher. They are not good guys and they would absolutely ally if it suited their purposes.

[Morgrim]

Also you have the Harlequins who are drawn from all major groups of Eldar - Exodites, Craftworlders and Kabalites - and are known to have the ultimate goal of uniting all the disparate factions into one united species once again. Since they have a lot of pull in each of the societies and are the best at using the webway you've automatically got a diplomatic core that can act as a swift and safe go between and actually get those alliances formed in the first place.

[completeHook]

Path of the Outcast, or Why the Eldar are Wrong'uns (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=wrongun).

That murderous, self indulgent little cry baby Aradryan, what a massive git. If any character in the 40k universe deserves to be chained to the tow bar of a Baal Predator and road hauled until there is nothing left but ragged stumps in a pair of blood soaked thigh boots it's him.

Okay his crimes against the Imperium and Humanity are one thing, he's an alien pirate after all, but his crimes against fashion...


(Note: the only real definition I could find for a wrong'un was on the Urban Dictionary, so, fair warning.)

[Anggul]

They're only to be considered 'good' in their quest to destroy chaos at every turn.

In all other matters they're completely self-serving. They don't like killing, but they don the war mask of Khaine so that they can kill without regret for their survival. 40k is usually kill or be killed, with very little leeway. Biel-Tan are worse, actively going to war to keep their hold on planets and reclaim old Eldar planets, not for survival but for dominion. The Eldar aren't xenophobic like the Imperium. Certainly they consider themselves superior, but they wouldn't sacrifice countless lives of their own people for the sake of genocide just because another species had the nerve to exist. They will, however, slaughter any other species if it will save the life of a single one of their own.

They would still only ally with Dark Eldar when they have to though, not just because they can. They regard them as the horrific kin who spawn She Who Thirsts and still don't give a crap. Incubi even actively seek to shatter spirit stones to make torture wave emitters. The Eldar will do whatever is best for them in that situation. If the Farseers see that the best course of action for their survival is to aid the Imperium against a Dark Eldar raid, that's just what they'll do. All of this talk of: 'They'll always side with their own species' is nonsense. They'll do whatever best serves them. They'll sacrifice an entire Imperial world to save a single craftworlder or exodite, but they aren't going to mourn the passing of one of their depraved, disgusting cousins.

If a craftworld Eldar force finds itself in a sticky situation, the Dark Eldar aren't going to swoop in and save the day. They did it with Iyanden because they got to laugh at the craftworlders frantically committing necromancy while relying on their hated kin for survival, but usually they'll probably take advantage of the situation and start making opportunistic strikes on both sides, capturing whoever they can and generally screwing with both sides to their advantage. The Dark Eldar have no respect for one another and will kill each other without so much as a second thought, let alone the ones they see as false kin, and the craftworlders see their dark kin as disgusting creatures who might stab them in the back at any moment. There's none of this 'well we're still the same species so we're cool' nonsense, it's using each other for what they need and then trying to avoid being screwed afterwards. Does no-one remember that story in the 3rd ed codex where a Farseer and his Warlocks are sealing a webway gate on their craftworld because the Farseer saw that the Dark Eldar would find it and attack them? The Dark Eldar are happy to attack, kill and enslave other Eldar, they don't care, and the craftworlders know it.

The Harlequins would love for the various Eldar factions to work together, but it's considerably easier said than done, especially with Vect keeping them to heel. Perhaps that's why Cegorach is manipulating Lady Malys to bring about his downfall, maybe the removal of his iron grip will make it easier to convince the Dark Eldar to work with the Harlequins.

[Charon]

Does no-one remember that story in the 3rd ed codex where a Farseer and his Warlocks are sealing a webway gate on their craftworld because the Farseer saw that the Dark Eldar would find it and attack them? The Dark Eldar are happy to attack, kill and enslave other Eldar, they don't care, and the craftworlders know it.

Oh I remember it... but I also remeber that sometimes craftworlds attack other craftworlds, there does exist civil war on craftworlds, outcasts and corsairs attacking exodites, craftworlds and other outcasts and corsairs.
Thats not a Dark Eldar issue.
They all are like different factions in a walking dead episode. They try to survive at all costs. Sometimes this means to work together with another party of survivors and sometimes that means "raid them and take their equipment and food". Survival comes first for them. Ethics second. And concerning other species there is not too much of a moral dilema. Killing a few million humans is probably more like we did when we killed off wolves and bears (or other humans) to establish safe settlements in fertile areas.

[Archon Charybdis]

Not that anyone is technically wrong in this thread, but I feel the need to come to the defense of my poor maligned Eldar. In the festering crap-sack galaxy of Warhammer 40K, where other factions are not only xenophobic fascists who commit atrocities against their enemies, but will indiscriminately murder their own kind in unconscionable acts of wholesale slaughter, the Eldar at least treat their own kind reasonably well (Dark Eldar excepted). Compared to the inhumanity of humanity, wantonly murdering their own kind, you could say Eldar are morally superior in that regard. Of course, the whole point is though that every faction commits evil to some extent and that everything is on a scale from black to shades of grey at best.

[YorkNecromancer]

They all are like different factions in a walking dead episode. They try to survive at all costs. Sometimes this means to work together with another party of survivors and sometimes that means "raid them and take their equipment and food".

Like I said, the CIA would never work with the Taleban... except when it does.

Anyone will work with anyone given proper incentive. Doesn't make them friends, friendly, ideologically aligned... Just pragmatists. The Eldar don't have the numbers to afford principles.

Let alone the fact that a Craftworlder looking down on a citizen of Commoragh as "evil" is pure delusion at best, rank hypocrisy at worst.


the Eldar at least treat their own kind reasonably well (Dark Eldar excepted). Compared to the inhumanity of humanity, wantonly murdering their own kind, you could say Eldar are morally superior in that regard.

Question: would this statement still be true if the Eldar had the population levels that humanity currently does? Because humanity views itself as superior in (just like the Eldar), views itself as the most scientifically advanced and spiritually pure species (just like the Eldar)... the only difference to me seems to be population levels. A case could be made that the Eldar are simply what humanity will finally turn into when the Imperium finally collapses and is forced to use tactics besides Send In The Next Wave.

Are they actually morally superior, or simply slaves to a different necessity than humanity's?

[Darren Richardson]

Eldar are essentially entirely self interested gits.

Seriously, consider what is actually more evil? A slave raid by Dark Eldar, or Craftworld Eldar mucking about with fate to ensure the rise of Ghazghkull? You know, the Ork that has rampaged around the Imperium.

Both are/were done to ensure Eldar survival. Frankly, I find Dark Eldar the lesser of the two evils, simply because their actions are honest.

I agree with Mr Mystery, to me the Eldar are very self centred, while their Dark cousins are honest about their motives....

As for "Good Guys" in 40k, honestly I consider them all to be evil to varying degrees....

The Imperium = Hard Line Religious Dictorship.
Chaos = Self Serving Power Hungry Deprevation.
Eldar = Self Centred Self Preservionists.
Dark Eldar = Depraved Self Obessed Hedionists.
Tau = Nieve Communist Agenda.
Orks = Might Makes Right Self Interested
Necrons = Genocidal self Preservitists.

In Fact, I think the only real honest faction is the Nids = Evolounists pure and simple.

[John Bower]

Actually I think you'll find the Eldar committing murder among other things but in depraved ways was largely responsible for the creation of Slannesh. It was a mix of excess of all sorts, torture; depraved sexual excess; BDSM, etc. So Eldar good? Not a chance, they are just the same nasty little snotrags everyone else is. That's the one think I don't like about the fluff, at least IRL there are 'nice' people from all sides of any war. But in 40k if a guardsman and a Howling Banshee found themselves alone and cut off on a world they wouldn't help each other, the Banshee would kill the guardsman who (let's face it) wouldn't stand an snowflake's chance in hell of stopping her, then die because she would have nobody to help her.

In reality both would see the merit of helping each other until they were rescued or not as the case may be.
I think my point is that as the fluff is written nobody really seems to have a mind to think for themselves; they're all stupid as it gets. Drones; "Duh; master say I got to kill you; so I kill you."

As pointed out, the only ones who aren't 'evil' are the Nids, who are like locusts more than anything; and the Orks who fight for the sake of it.

[YorkNecromancer]

if a guardsman and a Howling Banshee found themselves alone and cut off on a world they wouldn't help each other, the Banshee would kill the guardsman who (let's face it) wouldn't stand an snowflake's chance in hell of stopping her, then die because she would have nobody to help her.

I get the feeling she'd lie to him about being friendly in order to use him to build shelter and survive as far as possible, snuggle next to him if it was cold to use his body heat to survive, then kill him and eat him once she needed to, or kill him and forget about him once her people finally came to pick her up.

Assuming she wasn't forced to kill him because he'd read his Uplifting Primer and believed it when it said that he could take an Eldar in CQC using a small K-bar in his faith in the Emperor.

Either way, I would watch the **** out of that film.

[daboarder]

Eh I could see the eldar killing the guardsmen with the belief that she is superior enough not to need him

[Charon]

Eh I could see the eldar killing the guardsmen with the belief that she is superior enough not to need him

Nah... as we have seen a Greyknight working together with a Mandrake to escape a daemonworld (breaking his promise and killing the Mandrake and all other prisoners after they made it to safety) im quite sure that an Eldar can work together with a human if necessary. On the other hand... its an aspect warrior and they can be quite single minded (the whole point of the paths) when they donned their warmasks.

[Da Gargoyle]

What makes you mere mortals think you can judge the Eldar in right & wrong or good and bad. Your pathetically short lives give you no capacity to understand or comprehend our universe. Anything we do is for the good of the Eldar. This is by definition for the good of the universe because the universe will be a lessor place without us. So though you may think you can judge us, your idea of good is ephemerial and inconsequential to the true worth of our being and benefit to the universe.

'nuff said

[Anggul]

What makes you mere mortals think you can judge the Eldar in right & wrong or good and bad. Your pathetically short lives give you no capacity to understand or comprehend our universe. Anything we do is for the good of the Eldar. This is by definition for the good of the universe because the universe will be a lessor place without us. So though you may think you can judge us, your idea of good is ephemerial and inconsequential to the true worth of our being and benefit to the universe.

'nuff said

Actually pretty much it yeah.

[Wolfshade]

To define things like good and bad implies a universal morality code. Which in this case simply isn't true.

Consider the Orks, for orks fighting is good, therefore any action which brings them into conflict is good. Indeed, the fighting is often more important that the winning, they are the ultimate case of "its the taking part that counts". Certainly, yes they see winning at fighting is better and is the base formation of there civilisation's heirachy (as much as one can state it).

For the Tau, however, this would a complete anathma, yes, they do fight, but only as a last resort and if it enhances the "greater good".

So are the eldar good?

Well, it depends on what your morality is.

In 40k, the closes we have of a moral code is the treatment of Chaos, either pro or anti and even then you have the orks and tyranids who have no position on it whatsoever. (Historically, you did have Chaos Orks and Chaos Genestealer Cults but these appear to have been retconned)

So if we consider that the opposition of Chaos is good, then the eldar is very much "good" in that sense. Like nearly every other race, tau possibly being the exception, they view every other race as inferior and a means to an end. So it is perfectly possible that sacrificing an entire imperial world is just as the same as sacrificing ammo.

But it is slightly more than that which dominates the Eldar, yes the war against Chaos is very very important to them, but so too is their own survival, and protection of their lands be it craftworld or maiden world.

The other distiniction is perhaps is the scope that the eldar look at.

Consider how they act through Grammaticus during the Heresey. They want Horus to be victorious, which in the short term seems to play into the hands of Chaos and against their own goals, but they know if Horus does win the war, then he will realise his mistake and purge the galaxy and ultimately destroy the dark gods, oh and humanity, but ho-hum there is a price to pay.

To the eldar I would say they are very much consequentialists, then ends always justifies the means.

They are "good" in the sense that you can communicate with them and ally with them short term if you have mutual goals, but if that conflicts with their own goals then treachery and betrayal will follow. So forinstance, if there is an imperial colony on a maiden world, the eldar might help the imperium defend it against chaos/nids but once the threat has been removed, if they are in a position of strength would not think twice about removing the human taint from their world.

[Dave Mcturk]

eldar are the vulcans of 40k.

but if having pointy ears. and being nearly immortal doesnt make them superior. they need tails?

[Anggul]

Yeah, Chaos is the only factor that you can be considered 'good' or 'bad' in relation to. The Grey Knights, Harlequins, Ordo Malleus and many other Eldar are fighting for the greater good against Chaos. They commit some serious atrocities doing so, but the overall goal (as you say, end justifies the means) is a good one. That's the thing about fighting Chaos I suppose, there are going to be other consequences, it's rarely a straight fight.

[YorkNecromancer]

What makes you mere mortals think you can judge the Eldar in right & wrong or good and bad. Your pathetically short lives give you no capacity to understand or comprehend our universe. Anything we do is for the good of the Eldar. This is by definition for the good of the universe because the universe will be a lessor place without us. So though you may think you can judge us, your idea of good is ephemerial and inconsequential to the true worth of our being and benefit to the universe.

Interesting take - so are you arguing that a longer life (or perhaps the capacity for one) means that life is inherently of more value than a shorter one?

I would have thought it easy to argue that the converse was true - the shorter life is more precious, because it has less time for indolence and introspection; life must be enjoyed immediately, because there is no tomorrow.

And 'anything we do is for the good of the Eldar' doesn't address the basic assumptions I listed in my original post. By any measure, the Necrons have been around longer, have a higher level of technology, an equally distinct culture, and not merely two gods under their command (Khaine and the Laughing God who, to be fair, is under no-one's command), but they actually broke their gods into shards, so their gods could serve them better.

By every measure, the Necron species is the Eldar's superior - surely, taking your own logic, an Eldar cannot comprehend them or their universe?

And why would the universe be a lesser place without them? They foment wars, lead other species into disaster and - by your own admission - are entirely self-serving: every action is to serve the Eldar race. In a mathematical sense, the universe would be a lesser place without any of the major species (or minor ones). What is it that the Eldar bring to the table which makes their preservation such an absolute good?

Because from the average Imperial citizen's point of view, cowering with his children as the Raveners come, all to save a handful of elven lives that should have ended millenia ago when their race birthed a psychic abomination the likes of which not even the Necrons managed, frankly?

I don't think he's going to put the Farseer who organised that plan's life ahead of his.

So I feel the question stands. There's not a doubt the Eldar are powerful, strong, or dangerous. There's no doubt they are unique, or long-lived, or skilled.

But above morality? You know who says things like 'I am above good and evil'?

http://media.tumblr.com/77c6265283da0f2fc569782971423a80/tumblr_inline_mp45zj2D6s1qz4rgp.gif

[Mr Mystery]

Why are the Eldar actually evil?

All those predictions and prognostications? They could be cast to assist other races. Imagine if Eldrad threw the occasional predictive bone to the Grey Knights, enabling them for once to get proactive. That's do a lot of good yes?

But they don't. All kept to themselves. The buttholes.

[Shaun]

You dont get to be the oldest sentient race by trusting GK or anyone for that matter. Eldar are tired, of pretty much everything. Truely been there dont that got the t shirt. Eldar have actually shipped human colonists off maiden worlds to other planets rather than kill the entire colony. On the maiden world of Yrthal, Avele destroyed half a dozen human settlements before the Imperial colony finally surrendered.He took the surviving forty thousand colonists to a nearby habitable moon and promised them that there would be no further hostilities against them if they did not stray back to Yrthal. The Eldar probably did not feel like redecorating the planet but those colonists must have trusted them not to send them to Commorragh.

[Anggul]

Why are the Eldar actually evil?

All those predictions and prognostications? They could be cast to assist other races. Imagine if Eldrad threw the occasional predictive bone to the Grey Knights, enabling them for once to get proactive. That's do a lot of good yes?

But they don't. All kept to themselves. The buttholes.

The Grey Knights already have precognitive abilities, that's how they see daemonic incursions coming.

Also, the Eldar do aid others when it comes to daemons. They don't mess around with chaos, it's the one thing you can be sure they'll help you against.

As for everything else, well, no-one else in the galaxy is helping either. Sure the Eldar are being selfish, but so is everyone else. The Eldar are still less selfish than the Imperium. The Eldar might even be merciful if it doesn't hurt them, the Imperium not so much. Sure the Eldar would kill an entire world to save themselves, but the Imperium would kill an entire world just for existing in a way that slightly displeases them. The Great Crusade was an exercise in genocide for the sake of racial singularity. At least when the Eldar had their empire they left everyone else to it and didn't run around killing everything in sight.

[Wolfshade]

Ultimately, we judge other people's morality by our own. Hence there is little consensus.

Consider the terrorist, the consider to bomb civilians to be of good moral order, and sympythisers will also agree that it is morally just. Then compare that with most other people it is seen as deplorable.

So the eldar are good or no depending on your own view point and there is no universality about it.

[eldargal]

Eldar do work with GK and other elements of the IoM sometimes, too.

[Mr Mystery]

You dont get to be the oldest sentient race by trusting GK or anyone for that matter. Eldar are tired, of pretty much everything. Truely been there dont that got the t shirt. Eldar have actually shipped human colonists off maiden worlds to other planets rather than kill the entire colony. On the maiden world of Yrthal, Avele destroyed half a dozen human settlements before the Imperial colony finally surrendered.He took the surviving forty thousand colonists to a nearby habitable moon and promised them that there would be no further hostilities against them if they did not stray back to Yrthal. The Eldar probably did not feel like redecorating the planet but those colonists must have trusted them not to send them to Commorragh.

Careful now. Necrons are clearly the oldest sentient race, given the Eldar and Orks were created to fight against them....

Also - Eldar. If you abandon a planet, it's not really yours anymore. Do try to look after your stuff a bit better :p

Still standing by my initial rationale - Eldar are far from altruistic. If there's nowt in it for them, then they will take no action whatsoever.

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Eldar do work with GK and other elements of the IoM sometimes, too.

#notalleldar ?

[eldargal]

If you didn't want us to divert a Waaaagh! to your planet you shouldn't dress like a *****!.

[Wolfshade]

If you didn't want us to divert a Waaaagh! to your planet you shouldn't dress like a *****!.

Wait, are you some how saying that the Eldar are teh fashion police?

[eldargal]

Well, not all of them.

[Mr Mystery]

And.......tea very close to being spilled :p

[eldargal]

I am quite proud of that post.:p

[Wolfshade]

Well, not all of them.

Harlaquins obvs.

[Mr Mystery]

I am quite proud of that post.:p

And rightly so.

Like a true British Person of Britishness, you stopped it just short of actual tea spillage.

[Charon]

Also - Eldar. If you abandon a planet, it's not really yours anymore. Do try to look after your stuff a bit better

If I got it right, Maiden worlds are not abandoned but just not 100 % finished yet.

[Mr Mystery]

Kind of 50/50 on that one.

Some were finished, but never populated, others work in progress.

Still should have taken better care of them :p

[Anggul]

Biel-Tan like to take care of them. Most have learned to stop trying to colonise them, lest they end up with the swordwind up their bum.

[Necron2.0]

There are no good guys in 40K. None.

As a friend of mine put it, "40K is a game of the bad guys versus the evil guys."

[Mr Mystery]

Delightful isn't it?

Really quite definitively 'post Imperial decline British' in it's sensibilities. The writers grew up after the two world wars, just in time to see the decline really kick in. This is also reflected in the artwork. If you ever visit an industrial British city, you'll see similarities.

[kind'd'uman cadre]

I have done quite a bit of thinking of this very topic, not only regarding the Eldar, but actually as to who is the true "good guy" in the known 40K universe. I agree with most of what has been written regarding the Craftworld Eldar. In truth, I would believe the Exodites to be the only true faction of Eldar that I could consider "good." They exist solely to protect their home worlds.

Someone pointed out that Tyranids are neutral and Orks are as well. They exist only to feed or fight. Good call.

As a Tau player and Tau fluff enthusiast. I used to despise the idea of the renegade Commander O'Shovah, Farsight. Then, I read his book. How wrong was I about poor, old, very, very old Farsight. In the fluff, he is amongst the only Tau to know the existence of deamons and the warp. He's been lead to believe that the Ethereals are "all-knowing" so they must have known of the warp and the deamon presence. Why would they keep this threat away from the Tau? Or maybe the Ethereals are not so "all-knowing" after all?

Now Farsight lives, hundreds and hundreds of years longer than any Tau should because every life he takes with his Dawn Blade keeps him alive. In some ways, I imagine he wishes he could just die but he knows that if he were to die and not go on, then these threats too immeasurable could break his former Empire. Much like the Exodites, I believe Farsight either selfishly or selflessly to be the only good guy in the known 40K universe. Then again, as a committed Enclaves player I am partial.

[tomach]

I think everyone has their own beliefs about whether their preferred army is truly good or truly evil depending on what kinda fluff they want their army to be in line with.

[Harley]

I'm sure there are plenty of Jewish people still alive who feel liberation of N a z i concentration camps was good. I'm sure political sanctions and #savethejews movements would have done wonders. "Good" is in the eye of the beholder. In the case of the Eldar, a dying race, "Good" is keeping their people around to continue fighting Chaos and not empowering Slaneesh. "Good" doesn't apply to humanity. "Good" is realizing that even if a Space Marine decides to help you out today, doesn't make you life long buds, and he's likely to shoot you in the face down the road, so why not manipulate things to lead to mutually assured destruction of multiple foes? Two birds one stone?

I'm sure there are plenty of German people still alive who's civilian family were killed by Allied firebombs even though they were guilty of nothing more than living in Germany at the time. Even more so can be said of people living in Nagasaki. Anyways, this isn't the time and place for a history lesson.

There are no good guys in war. This is especially true of 40k. Even the closest factions to "good", Eldar, Space Wolves, Sororitas, have precipitated battles that could have been avoided and supported actions which resulted in the deaths of innocents. Are the results better that way than if they had done nothing? Perhaps, but they all have blood on their hands.

[Anggul]

Even Exodites are known to attack neighbouring worlds via the webway.

I think everyone knows that no-one in 40k is 'good' and that it all depends on perspective. I don't think we need to beat that dead horse. What's interesting is in which ways any of them might be (or at least appear) benevolent in some way. It doesn't seem possible to be nice in 40k and live, being nice will probably just get you killed. For that reason there are probably nice individuals or very small civilisations, but notable factions can't be nice because they've had to step on many heads to get where they are in a position of notability.

[JMichael]

I am definitely of the camp that doesn't sit well with my Eldar allying with Dark Eldar (recent thread on that too).
Perhaps we tend to think of Eldar like High Elves. For me, I like the design of the Eldar models and vehicles and chose them because I wanted to paint those wonderful sculpts. Mostly I don't care for the look of the Dark Eldar with my Biel-Tan Eldar.

But they are very selfish and there is a reason they can't be trusted. That they have a reputation of being your ally only to turn on you once the battle is won and your forces are exhausted and weak.
Really I think the Eldar are much like the race of Elric of Melniboné. Very arrogant, to the point of viewing other races as lower beasts. As someone pointed out to me, they would still rather ally with their Dark Eldar kin than some meat-bag human!

[John Bower]

I am definitely of the camp that doesn't sit well with my Eldar allying with Dark Eldar (recent thread on that too).
Perhaps we tend to think of Eldar like High Elves. For me, I like the design of the Eldar models and vehicles and chose them because I wanted to paint those wonderful sculpts. Mostly I don't care for the look of the Dark Eldar with my Biel-Tan Eldar.

But they are very selfish and there is a reason they can't be trusted. That they have a reputation of being your ally only to turn on you once the battle is won and your forces are exhausted and weak.
Really I think the Eldar are much like the race of Elric of Melniboné. Very arrogant, to the point of viewing other races as lower beasts. As someone pointed out to me, they would still rather ally with their Dark Eldar kin than some meat-bag human!

I don't think you can you lump all the elder together, there are in the fluff one or 2 craftworlds that have no desire to fight humans. In fact a lot of books I've read it does seem to be humans blaming the Eldar for summoning Daemons when actually they were trying to stop them. Giving the impression that humans are actually pretty thick (but what do you expect from somebody evolved from monkeys).

[RadsvidTheRed]

Being morality has to have some basis and therefor an example, looking at the Imperium as the sort of neutral/sort of good guys because they want to destroy all xenos to benefit the larger group of humans so on so forth, the Eldar are rather, I would say, evil. Dark Eldar may torture, maim, kill, enslave, so on. But at least they usually tell you or hint about it. The normal eldar are duplicitous, scheming, and far too self centered to be remotely good. much less "the good guys" who, despite my Imperial Bias, I would give to the Tau, who wants galactic peace so long as you agree, and promotes equality and such, sort of. (No gue'la will ever be equal to a tau)

[tomach]

I'm not in need of a history lesson. My disagreement is with your generalization that there are no good guys. I can already tell we're going to agree to disagree on war being avoidable in 100% of cases, so I won't go there. But as far as determining good and bad, I'm not sure if you're making a statement about individuals, factions or organizations/military as a whole. Don't discount the individual. There are good and bad on both sides to everything. The firebombings were bad, true. But 600,000 max estimated German deaths vs. 11 million killed in concentration camps doesnt even out. 246,000 from the atomic bombs doesn't stack up to 11 million Chinese civilians killed from war atrocities.

If you're saying there are no 100% good factions... well yea. Of course. That would make them infallible. Theres no such thing. And if there were a completely infallible faction, it'd be the most boring one ever, and GW would lose more money than they have made off gouging prices and lowering model count in boxed sets.

GW fluff is written to allow anyone to do whatever they want with their army. You want Dark Eldar that take the moral high road with how they treat foes, but have a thing for lust? Go for it. Loyal versions of the fallen legions? sure, why not. Space Marines who work closely with the Tau because they think the Emprah is bad? HERESY... err... do your thing..?

[Harley]

(but what do you expect from somebody evolved from monkeys).

Not much more than somebody grown in a test tube by a gremlin. :cool:

[Noah G Hallett]

I think I was one of the ones who started this fire (NoName1) - so here's my two cents

In the Grimdark, no one is "good." You can't judge by normal standards in a universe where just about everyone's day consists of trying to kill everyone else.
However, I define the Eldar as "Good" because of their treatment of their own people. Where the Imperium will nuke a planet for calling the Emperor a dirty poo-head too many times, and even the fishy space communists spend most of their time subjugating other races, the Eldar want to survive and protect their own. There are no (that I've seen, anyway) stories of Craftworlders attacking each other, civil wars, or even rebellions against authority. At worst, Eldar become Outcasts, but even then they come back from time to time to help. The Eldar don't go around thumping people for the fun of it - even when they do something horrific (and they do of course, on a regular basis) there's a long-term reason for it.

And as for not trusting the other races, they'll get around to trusting the Tau (maybe), but after watching the Horus Heresy, what reason do that have to trust the fanatic, xenophobic, self-destructive Imperium?

Sure, they'll sick an Ork WAUGH! on another group without a second thought, but their overall goals are to 1. Survive, 2. Protect each other, and 3. Defeat the Ruinous Powers.

As far as goals in the universe go, not slaughtering your own people for any reason (aside from a willing sacrifice to create an Avatar), and bending all of your efforts towards defeating Evil in the universe sounds like a solid anti-hero to me.

And the Dark Eldar? They fail the test because they're just as (if not more) likely to flay each other alive just for the fun of it as they are any other race. I can see the Eldar allying with the Dark Eldar, sure, in dire circumstances. But Battle Brothers? Who in their right mind (even Dark Eldar themselves!) would let any Dark Eldar into their units, let alone their transports?
Yes, Allies. Back-thumping best pals? Heck no.

[Xeohelios]

The only race I've felt that isn't as evil as the rest might be Tau.

While all of the other races are very much about killing everyone else because they're not "us", Tau at least will integrate other races into their society (Kroot, Vespid, Humans, etc.) Granted you're pretty much their enemy if you're not with them, and likely looked down upon if you're not an actual Tau, but you're at least given the option. They have a structure and operate for a "greater good", which most societies we're aware of operate on.

And joining them isn't a millennium of mutation and torment via fickle Chaos Gods.

But that's my opinion and it's worth what you paid for it.

[Shaun]

Careful now. Necrons are clearly the oldest sentient race, given the Eldar and Orks were created to fight against them....

Also - Eldar. If you abandon a planet, it's not really yours anymore. Do try to look after your stuff a bit better :p

Still standing by my initial rationale - Eldar are far from altruistic. If there's nowt in it for them, then they will take no action whatsoever.

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#notalleldar ?

Definition of Sentience ?

Sentience is the ability to feel, perceive, or to experience subjectivity. Eighteenth-century philosophers used the concept to distinguish the ability to think (reason) from the ability to feel (sentience). In modern Western philosophy, sentience is the ability to experience sensations (known in philosophy of mind as "qualia").


Necrons are disqualified as a race they have no more sentience than a rock. The Star Gods and C'Tan are not Necron as such the Necrons are their toys.
Unlike the Eldar who resist manipulation from pretty much everything. Eldar dont seem to trash each other too much even when they differ hugely as Dark eldar and Eldar do.

[This Dave]

The only race I've felt that isn't as evil as the rest might be Tau.

While all of the other races are very much about killing everyone else because they're not "us", Tau at least will integrate other races into their society (Kroot, Vespid, Humans, etc.) Granted you're pretty much their enemy if you're not with them, and likely looked down upon if you're not an actual Tau, but you're at least given the option. They have a structure and operate for a "greater good", which most societies we're aware of operate on.

And joining them isn't a millennium of mutation and torment via fickle Chaos Gods.

But that's my opinion and it's worth what you paid for it.

The Tau do include other races far better than any of the other empires. But there are three things that make them "evil" in my opinion. Well four as they're blue skinned goat footed xenos scum but that's a different matter. :)

The first is the fact that they are an imperial culture, much like Europe was for centuries. They feel that since they are obviously superior to all these other unenlightened races it is their right, nay their duty to bring them all under their benevolent rule. For those races own good of course. And if that race can't see the obvious good well then it's big stick and genocide/enslavement time. It is rather telling that none of the client races of the Tau Empire actually have any sort of authority at all.

The second is the actual way the Tau integrate new planets and races into their empire. The Tau don't just rely on the persuasiveness of the Greater Good or the might of their armies. They send agents and diplomats to not overtly hostile planets and work disruption campaigns. When "above board" tactics like telling of the superiority of the Greater Good and/or Tau technology fails to convince the natives then other means are used, such as bribery and stirring up unrest so they have to come in and "save" them from themselves. And one a planet is conquered either peacefully or not dissidents are rounded up and "re-educated", usually to death.

The final reason is the fact that the "Greater Good" is in itself a lie. The whole empire exists for the good of the Ethereals. They took over the rest of the Tau race in the past through some never totally defined ability. The Greater Good philosophy is just taught to the masses to keep them docile and obedient. It is rather telling that all Tau expeditions and settlements must have an Ethereal and those that don't such as the Farsight Enclave revert to the old Tau ways and refuse almost all contact with the greater Tau empire. If the "Greater Good" was truly important you would think the Tau and Farsight would attempt reconciliation.

They aren't the worst race by far but they really can't be considered good.

[Andrew Thomas]

Dark Eldar = Depraved Self Obessed Hedionists.

Re: Hedonism and Dark Eldar
9476
Seriously, if anything, Dark Eldar are the opposite of Hedonists, in that their long term survival depends upon the suffering of "lesser" beings, rather than on making everyone equally happy.

I think Legion, Fulgrim, and Unmarked, in Mark of Calth, demonstrate well that the Eldar should accurately be described as Utilitarian, in that they would go to any length, make any deal, play both sides of a civil war even, in order to survive.

[Anggul]

Being morality has to have some basis and therefor an example, looking at the Imperium as the sort of neutral/sort of good guys because they want to destroy all xenos to benefit the larger group of humans so on so forth, the Eldar are rather, I would say, evil. Dark Eldar may torture, maim, kill, enslave, so on. But at least they usually tell you or hint about it. The normal eldar are duplicitous, scheming, and far too self centered to be remotely good. much less "the good guys" who, despite my Imperial Bias, I would give to the Tau, who wants galactic peace so long as you agree, and promotes equality and such, sort of. (No gue'la will ever be equal to a tau)

The Dark Eldar lie and hide their intentions all the time. Have you read the story in the codex where they convince the Tau that they're nice and helpful? They play out the whole thing, even sending armies of Wracks, Grotesques and Pain Engines to help them fight the Tyranids. They even have cultural exchanges. The exchanges don't come back. They start seeing flesh-creatures with blue-grey skin. Said creatures turn around and kill them.

All for fun. It's hilarious when they don't even know you're evil. Granted the Tau are considerably easier to convince than the xenophobic Imperium, but the Imperium are still good to 'play' with.

[YorkNecromancer]

Sentience is the ability to feel, perceive, or to experience subjectivity. Eighteenth-century philosophers used the concept to distinguish the ability to think (reason) from the ability to feel (sentience). In modern Western philosophy, sentience is the ability to experience sensations (known in philosophy of mind as "qualia").


Necrons are disqualified as a race they have no more sentience than a rock.

I'm terribly sorry, but that's complete rot.

In 3rd ed, this was true. Retcons render this incorrect. Modern Necrons come in two flavours - Warriors, whose engrams were designed to degrade over time to create a mindless slave race, and the Immortal/Lord caste, whose engrams were more secure, and who are quite capable of feeling. It's called 'living metal' because that is literally true. They're not robots: they're alive, just in a metallic form. How?

Well, they're aliens, and their technology is super-advanced. It's called a plot device, and Necrons have them by the bucketload.

Think Optimus Prime and Megatron, only smaller and more Tomb Kings and you're there. Seriously, Starscream was more than capable of feeling a wide variety of emotions - literally everything he does comes from jealousy, pettiness and greed. Compare him to Trazyn the Infinite, who is building a collection because that's his hobby. He even converses with Inquisitor Valeria about it quite cordially in the Necron codex!

The minions are mindless slaves, but the elites? They're quite, quite sentient and fully capable of emotional, moral and ethical thinking. Just read about the personalities of the named characters in the codex and see.

[Reapray]

There is no universal morality, only will to power.

[Chaplain]

"Not compared to the other species"????

That's a joke right? So you're saying the Eldar, a race paying for its past sins for thousands of years by having a Chaos god dedicated to devouring their souls, is more evil than humans who worship that god?

"Blood for the Blood God!" isn't as bad as "We do what we do to starve She Who Thirsts"?

What about the Imperium? "Purge the alien"? You want to talk about racial prejudice. The Imperium doesn't even value its own people!

You can always count on the Elder to oppose the forces of Chaos, Necrons, or the Tyranids, definite evils. However, good guys don't always have the luxury of doing absolute good 100% of the time, especially not in the Grim Dark.

They aren't just fighting for their lives, but for their souls. You can bet I'd push a planet full of people into the line of fire to save my loved ones from damnation. Yes, it would probably haunt me forever, but that's the sacrifice I make for my family.

[Navarion]

What kind of question is that? There are NO good guys in the Warhammer 40k universe. At least none that are alive and numerous enough to constitute a faction. However, the Eldar are still the best among the bad guys.

[John Bower]

What kind of question is that? There are NO good guys in the Warhammer 40k universe. At least none that are alive and numerous enough to constitute a faction. However, the Eldar are still the best among the bad guys.

Actually the Tyranids are... No concept of 'good' or 'evil' just eternally starving hungry. :) Eldar are evil like anyone else. But the Tyranids don't do anything out of malice or a sense of misplaced snobbish pride. So actually they are the best of a bad bunch.

[Lord-Boofhead]

force-evolving the Tau to their current technological high-point to act as a buffer against the horrors out there, forcing them to die instead of precious, precious Eldar?

I have never seen anything that even vaguely suggests that? Where does that come from?

[YorkNecromancer]

It's never been outright stated to the best of my knowledge, but it is heavily impled that the Eldar modified some Tau to create the Ethereals (who the Tau codex says basically came out of nowhere), which then led to the formation of the Tau Empire, and the sudden shift of the species from agrarian plains-dwellers to the super-advanced technology users we know them as today.