Understanding the setting.

[Mr Mystery]

How do!

Been seeing the odd comment here and there about people wondering whether their dream army is 'legal'. And t got me wondering if perhaps I have an odd take on the background and setting of the game.

To me, the background isn't some ongoing political drama, and it's not about moving it forward. Instead, as mentioned at the first Horus Heresy Weekender (totally recommended for peeps to attend!), 40k is a Galaxy stuck at one minute to midnight. And the background to this apocalyptic setting? It's mythology. Consider the stories and such that we read, and the histories of the various races. Very, very little of it is known 100% for sure.

Horus Heresy for instance. Pretty much all that is definitely known, in terms of the 40k Galaxy, is that Horus turned to Chaos, took a bunch of Legions with him, lost the war and the Emperor wound up enthroned. That's it. That's as much as anyone can say for definite.

War in Heaven? Very little known. Necrons kinda won, kinda lost. Eldar kinda won, kinda lost. Old Ones? Far as anyone can tell, they definitely lost it.

Orks? Don't care much for history.

Tau? Well who knows. There's the ongoing mystery of the Ethereals, and that's about it.

And that's just the ancient history. In the modern day? Even more legend. The galaxy is a place of deep seated ignorance and half remembered lore. The galaxy is also, frankly a really, really big place. And what with the warp, and the oddities that lie therein, literally anything could happen.

In short, there's little reason to hold completely true to the background. Yes there are some immutable things (The Emperor isn't quite dead, Horus doesn't appear to ever be making a return) but the rest? Let's look at some.

'No way would Orks ally with Space Marines'. In the general run of things, likely not, no. Nothing there you would necessarily consider to be common ground. But....Freebooterz, and Chapter on the very verge of going rogue. Is it really completely inconceivable that in a galaxy as big as ours that a Space Marine Chapter Master has never hired Freebooterz?

Necrons and Tyranids - Mindshackle Scarabs. Dead easy. Or, some kind of Tyranid gribbly that can corrupt Necron engrams? It's possible!

No need to be completely tied to the background. It's a sandbox folks, so go play!

[Charon]

While this is true to an extent it gets unbelievable annoying if there are only "im the special snowflake" armies around. "Yeah my Slaaneshi Tau commander is totally friend of that eldar farseer who summons daemons occasionally, its all in the background of my army!"
Or to have it with D&D. Its fine if Drizzt does exist. He is the one out of a million. That makes a good and unique story.
Its not fine when everyone wants to play a Drizzt-like Drow. That devalues Drizzt as a hero and gets boring really quick.

[Mr Mystery]

Still no reason not to do it :)

There's a lot of room out there. The one you described is somewhat silly, but hey if that's what the player enjoys, roll with it.

If you ask me, there's much too much 'you shouldn't do X, you should do Y' going round at the moment. Whether it's you should tournament, or casual, or what have you. We just need to all relax and just enjoy hobby time, without worrying about whether your opponent needs their bumps felt or is a power gamer etc :)

[Charon]

Actually I dont enjoy it. You can call me a fluff **** in this regard but I passionately hate these "special snowflake" armies and I dont roll with them. Cuase if their background is ****, the game will be not enjoyable for me.
Sure if he finds someone to play against his recently turned Khorne Autarch with his ensalved tyranid allies and both enjoy it there is no probelm.
But for me this is a straight "no". I'd rather face 8 Wraithknights... at least this is somewhat reasonable.

[Mr Mystery]

And that's your choice dude, and is to be likewise respected.

Granted, the really odd combinations work a lot better in the eyes of an opponent if conversions are done, and the army has some kind of unifying paint scheme. That's hobby anyone can respect.

But we're not all competent convertors, or painters. Some people get an idea in their head, and just sort of assemble that force. Just because Player X doesn't find it to their taste is no reason for Player Y not to do it.

[Hunter]

Am sort of working on some orks in great coats with lazguns as steel legion auxiliaries .

the short version of the back story , Commissar Yarrick slayed the former warboss in single combat, while the rest of the mob ran away , Da Ork Yooths sarted showing up at camp in makeshift or looted greatcoats chanting Yarrick is strongest HE DA BOSS...

[Arkhan Land]

im in favor of the more weird matchups, theres some real cool ones mentioned in the astronomicons and chapter approved of yesteryear have a lot more flavor than the sort of dire allies narative that gets dictated by current system but back then it was also a game with a lot fewer models and variety of. often encouraging the role playing aspect where you could make better use of the stranger possible game settings. for army on army future combat simulation some of that needs to be cleared out for the rules that allow for some common ground in gameplay over a larger variety of armies/units in each.

but there is a second component to this argument that is brought up in mystery's summary of various race backgrounds and the HH, in early 40k/rt theres a lot more ambiguity left to the narrative that allowed for a lot more creativity among players as to what the relationship was to the overall narrative, all of which was bridged together by gw in global campaigns (an amazing experience). compare the classic RT article on the Badab war and the leniency it left the interpretation of what happened, to the greater amount of detail that the FW books went into but ultimately that gave tighter restriction to narrative play, but of course balance that against the value of a shared more common experience of storyline with fellow players.

ultimately that might be the big question, is it better to have unique individual exploration of the universe or to have common shared experiences with less differences that allows you connect with other players more easily...

[Xeohelios]

Am sort of working on some orks in great coats with lazguns as steel legion auxiliaries .

the short version of the back story , Commissar Yarrick slayed the former warboss in single combat, while the rest of the mob ran away , Da Ork Yooths sarted showing up at camp in makeshift or looted greatcoats chanting Yarrick is strongest HE DA BOSS...

That is so stupid and Orky that it's beautiful. I commend you.

[PaD]

Am sort of working on some orks in great coats with lazguns as steel legion auxiliaries...

Kromlech Orks per chance? :) They are really cool. Nice idea to incorporate them into a Guard army. Like it!

[Harley]

Charon is right. Plausible deniability is important. Creating a quality narrative means avoiding tropes like Mary Sues. It's fine if there is a dark elf in the D&D adventuring party, but if there's also a half-demon, a half-dragon, a winged elf, and a celestial, it gets stupid and devalues the unique quality of these characters. An oddity has to be rare, or it isn't odd, it's normal. Unfortunately Games Workshop doesn't understand this because they employ poor writers like Matt Ward that uses hyperbole in every character and army he touches (Except Sororitas because f--- them :/). There is a term for people like him in D&D, it's called a "Munchkin", which is a person who has to make everything over the top out of a displaced need for self gratification. By projecting their own inadequacies into a character which is the exact opposite of themselves they can construct an imaginary hero which is everything they wish they could be. Unfortunately for those of us who prefer believable, realistic characters it ruins the setting because plausible deniability is broken.

[Andrew Thomas]

How do!

Been seeing the odd comment here and there about people wondering whether their dream army is 'legal'. And t got me wondering if perhaps I have an odd take on the background and setting of the game.

To me, the background isn't some ongoing political drama, and it's not about moving it forward. Instead, as mentioned at the first Horus Heresy Weekender (totally recommended for peeps to attend!), 40k is a Galaxy stuck at one minute to midnight. And the background to this apocalyptic setting? It's mythology. Consider the stories and such that we read, and the histories of the various races. Very, very little of it is known 100% for sure.

Horus Heresy for instance. Pretty much all that is definitely known, in terms of the 40k Galaxy, is that Horus turned to Chaos, took a bunch of Legions with him, lost the war and the Emperor wound up enthroned. That's it. That's as much as anyone can say for definite.

War in Heaven? Very little known. Necrons kinda won, kinda lost. Eldar kinda won, kinda lost. Old Ones? Far as anyone can tell, they definitely lost it.

Orks? Don't care much for history.

Tau? Well who knows. There's the ongoing mystery of the Ethereals, and that's about it.

And that's just the ancient history. In the modern day? Even more legend. The galaxy is a place of deep seated ignorance and half remembered lore. The galaxy is also, frankly a really, really big place. And what with the warp, and the oddities that lie therein, literally anything could happen.

In short, there's little reason to hold completely true to the background. Yes there are some immutable things (The Emperor isn't quite dead, Horus doesn't appear to ever be making a return) but the rest? Let's look at some.

'No way would Orks ally with Space Marines'. In the general run of things, likely not, no. Nothing there you would necessarily consider to be common ground. But....Freebooterz, and Chapter on the very verge of going rogue. Is it really completely inconceivable that in a galaxy as big as ours that a Space Marine Chapter Master has never hired Freebooterz?

Necrons and Tyranids - Mindshackle Scarabs. Dead easy. Or, some kind of Tyranid gribbly that can corrupt Necron engrams? It's possible!

No need to be completely tied to the background. It's a sandbox folks, so go play!
But legit fluff is fun.

While this is true to an extent it gets unbelievable annoying if there are only "im the special snowflake" armies around. "Yeah my Slaaneshi Tau commander is totally friend of that eldar farseer who summons daemons occasionally, its all in the background of my army!"
Or to have it with D&D. Its fine if Drizzt does exist. He is the one out of a million. That makes a good and unique story.
Its not fine when everyone wants to play a Drizzt-like Drow. That devalues Drizzt as a hero and gets boring really quick.
Valid point, which is why, at least in most serious RP groups I game with, we take the time to write out back story for our characters. I wouldn't see or have any problem with TOs requiring the same as a cost for using Allies or Unbound.

Still no reason not to do it :)

There's a lot of room out there. The one you described is somewhat silly, but hey if that's what the player enjoys, roll with it.

If you ask me, there's much too much 'you shouldn't do X, you should do Y' going round at the moment. Whether it's you should tournament, or casual, or what have you. We just need to all relax and just enjoy hobby time, without worrying about whether your opponent needs their bumps felt or is a power gamer etc :)
If you're going to build for S&Gs, there should be some risks involved in acquiring said S&Gs. Like Allied Units dying to stray blasts and whatnot.

Actually I dont enjoy it. You can call me a fluff **** in this regard but I passionately hate these "special snowflake" armies and I dont roll with them. Cuase if their background is ****, the game will be not enjoyable for me.
Sure if he finds someone to play against his recently turned Khorne Autarch with his ensalved tyranid allies and both enjoy it there is no probelm.
But for me this is a straight "no". I'd rather face 8 Wraithknights... at least this is somewhat reasonable.
Again, a compelling back story makes for a more enjoyable, quality gaming session.

And that's your choice dude, and is to be likewise respected.

Granted, the really odd combinations work a lot better in the eyes of an opponent if conversions are done, and the army has some kind of unifying paint scheme. That's hobby anyone can respect.

But we're not all competent convertors, or painters. Some people get an idea in their head, and just sort of assemble that force. Just because Player X doesn't find it to their taste is no reason for Player Y not to do it.
Surprisingly, there are plenty of characterful themed forces in the fiction that don't require an MFA in Sculpture to build, as much as an eye for reasonable representations of what's in the story. Just gotta put in the effort.

[Brettila]

Charon is right. Plausible deniability is important. Creating a quality narrative means avoiding tropes like Mary Sues. It's fine if there is a dark elf in the D&D adventuring party, but if there's also a half-demon, a half-dragon, a winged elf, and a celestial, it gets stupid and devalues the unique quality of these characters. An oddity has to be rare, or it isn't odd, it's normal. Unfortunately Games Workshop doesn't understand this because they employ poor writers like Matt Ward that uses hyperbole in every character and army he touches (Except Sororitas because f--- them :/). There is a term for people like him in D&D, it's called a "Munchkin", which is a person who has to make everything over the top out of a displaced need for self gratification. By projecting their own inadequacies into a character which is the exact opposite of themselves they can construct an imaginary hero which is everything they wish they could be. Unfortunately for those of us who prefer believable, realistic characters it ruins the setting because plausible deniability is broken.

Of course, Oliver North was big on 'plausible deniability' too...

[Harley]

Sorry, meant to say suspension of disbelief! Woo...

[Da Gargoyle]

Understanding the setting is very important in the 40k 'verse. If the safety is still on you can't start shootin.

[Cutter]

Charon is right. Plausible deniability is important.

Plausible deniability or suspension of disbelief?

[Path Walker]

I think some people have either misunderstood or not read what Mr Mystery has said (or purposefully misinterpreted), Mystery was explicitly saying that these rare match ups happen, Orks allying with the Imperium happens every now and then, there are occasionally times when its best for Necrons and Blood Angels to work together, its an established trope of fiction, fiction is all about the exceptions, the times things don't go as expected, thats what creates drama, the unexpected moments.

If you, or you opponent, is using a less traditionally accepted combination of forces purely for the power gaming of it, thats one thing and no one is advocating that, but if someone wants to tell the tale of the Stormboyz joining up under Yarrick to defend the hives of Armageaddon, or converts Tyranids to have arcane and mysterious devices controlling them so they fight alongside the Necrons, however temporarily, thats great, thats a story and makes games more fun.

Who is to say the sides won't shift? What if every turn the Hive Mind had a chance to re-establish control and the Nids came under the control of a GM? what if the Orks could fall back under the sway of the Waaaggghhhh of a great Warboss and decided he's the one to follow, joining back under the Ork control after seeing the Warboss defeat an opponent in the assualt phase?

This is a game, its not a sport, you are telling a story and stories flow and unexpected things happen, thats a good thing. Its fun if you embrace it.

The saga of the 15 Long Fangs who sat in a bunker and shot their 15 missle launchers at Chaos Space Marines till they died every battle is one thing, i'm sure it happens a lot in the 41st Millenium, but it doesn't mean its a compelling story, its fun the change that up,move out side the norm. Try new missions, throw in a 3rd opponent, give Zone Mortallis a go. Its a massive setting with tons of options for the game, have fun and keep doing whatever you enjoy.

[Harley]

That's funny, because I thought he said something like "Anything is possible, it doesn't matter if it doesn't make sense as long as it's fun, buy more stuff to play Unbound! psst buy more stuff?". Funny... reminds me a lot of those nutjobs up in Nottingham. Has anyone bothered to check his ip?

[Asymmetrical Xeno]

I agree with MrMystery - it's one of the reasons I made armies like my Enslavers, C'tan worshipping Mechanicum and Ulumeathic League - I feel theres far more in the universe than GW produces rules and models for, and the universe always feels far too small and limited with the armise available. I guess you could my armies "special snowflake armies", but the way I see it I'm just making the 40k armies I would want GW to produce anyway (and lets be realistic, it's pretty unlikely).

[Mr Mystery]

That's funny, because I thought he said something like "Anything is possible, it doesn't matter if it doesn't make sense as long as it's fun, buy more stuff to play Unbound! psst buy more stuff?". Funny... reminds me a lot of those nutjobs up in Nottingham. Has anyone bothered to check his ip?

You can check my IP and my bumps of you want. I'm not a GW Employee. I was, last time about 4 years ago, but since then I've somewhat changed career path from shop mook :)

Whole point of this thread is to encourage people to explore the 40k Galaxy, see what they make of it. There is precisely no right or wrong h

[Lord-Boofhead]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mm-aovm1axQ