Tyrant Guard

[Crevab]

Soooo, does Shieldwall actually do anything for the Tyrant anymore? Right, it lets the Tyrant join the Guard as if they were an Independent Character, and does not allow for Going to Ground. But that's it.

As Independent Characters, they are targeted separately in CC
And according to p.49 of the BRB, monstrous creature ICs can still be targeted separately, unless their unit offers special protection rules. Which Shieldwall doesn't.

Am I missing something? I don't think "targeted separately" means you can wound allocate. Anyone got a counter-argument?

[Drakkan Vael]

Soooo, does Shieldwall actually do anything for the Tyrant anymore? Right, it lets the Tyrant join the Guard as if they were an Independent Character, and does not allow for Going to Ground. But that's it.

As Independent Characters, they are targeted separately in CC
And according to p.49 of the BRB, monstrous creature ICs can still be targeted separately, unless their unit offers special protection rules. Which Shieldwall doesn't.

Am I missing something? I don't think "targeted separately" means you can wound allocate. Anyone got a counter-argument?


Not really a counter argument, but: The Hive Tyrant does not become an IC. He may join the Tyrant Guard as if he were an IC. So he may join the unit but is not an IC. And that means that he may not be targeted separately. Not in CC and not in shooting.

[AbusePuppy]

Not really a counter argument, but: The Hive Tyrant does not become an IC. He may join the Tyrant Guard as if he were an IC. So he may join the unit but is not an IC. And that means that he may not be targeted separately. Not in CC and not in shooting.

If so, that's one of the worst-written... who am I kidding, it's not even in the top ten worst-written rules in a codex.

I'm not sure I buy that argument, though; if he isn't counted as an independent character, he isn't allowed to be attached to the squad.

(There's also the tangent of the fluff descriptions of Marneus vs. Swarmlord and Big M being able to single out the Swarmlord from his squad like an IC, but fluff ain't rules.)

[Drakkan Vael]

I'm not sure I buy that argument, though; if he isn't counted as an independent character, he isn't allowed to be attached to the squad.

For the purpose of joining the Tyrant Guard, the Hive Tyrant ist considered an independent character. But only for the purpose of joining the Guard. That's the character of this special rule. It allows the HT to join the TG without becoming an IC. Otherwise he would not be allowed to join.

I don't see any problems with that.

[Lerra]

Can the Hive Tyrant leave the unit after joining it, or does it work like a retinue? If he can come and go, and is treated "as if he was an independent character," then he probably follows the normal independent character rules, only he is not allowed to join units other than Tyrant Guard.

[gcsmith]

He may join as if. That means he doesnt follow the rules, rather only the rules for joining and leaving

[Lerra]

How do you figure? I interpreted this rule as "The Hive Tyrant is an Independent Character in respect to the Tyrant Guard." I don't see how he could join the squad without using the Independent Character rules.

This reminds me of the debate with Counter-Attack and Furious Charge. In that case, "as if they were charging" was FAQd to mean that they were counted as charging in almost every way (except for defensive grenades).

[BuFFo]

He may join as if. That means he doesnt follow the rules, rather only the rules for joining and leaving

Nope!

The Hive Tyrant can only JOIN the unit of Tyrant Guard. The Tyrant can never leave the squad voluntarily.

The Tyrant is NOT an IC, and can only JOIN the Tyrant Guard as if he were an IC for joining only. Once the Tyrant joins, he is basically an upgraded character for the rest of the game and stays with the unit.

Without the IC status, or a rule allowing the Tyrant to leave, the Tyrant and his Guard have become a single unit. Think of the Guard as the Tyrant's retinue for all intent and purposes.

The Tyrant can join, but cannot leave.


How do you figure? I interpreted this rule as "The Hive Tyrant is an Independent Character in respect to the Tyrant Guard." I don't see how he could join the squad without using the Independent Character rules.

You are missing the obvious. The reason why the Tyrant can join the unit is BECAUSE the Guards have a special rule which allow him to do so. This is not a gray area, or a loophole. This is a special rule, given to the Tyrant by the Guard, which allows the Tyrant to join the guard as if the Tyrant was an IC during the movement phase for joining purposes.

Nothing more, nothing less. Don't read too much into it. :)

[Crevab]

This reminds me of the debate with Counter-Attack and Furious Charge. In that case, "as if they were charging" was FAQd to mean that they were counted as charging in almost every way (except for defensive grenades).

Well, the rule does say "exactly as if it were an independent character". Going by the Space Wolf FAQ and Counter Attack, we know how they feel about "exactly as if".


But anyway, so what I'm hearing is that once part of a guard unit. The tyrant disappears into some undefined retinue/upgrade character status that overrides it's type?

[Lerra]

Are new Tyrant Guard considered monstrous creatures or infantry? p.49 says that Monstrous Creatures that are ICs can't be targeted when in a unit of monstrous creatures. I know TG used to be MCs but I'm not sure about the new codex.

[Drakkan Vael]

Are new Tyrant Guard considered monstrous creatures or infantry? p.49 says that Monstrous Creatures that are ICs can't be targeted when in a unit of monstrous creatures. I know TG used to be MCs but I'm not sure about the new codex.

No, they are not MC. But the Hive Tyrant is not an IC. So p. 49 is of no concern here.

BuFFo already answered how the HT an the TG are to be used.

[Duke]

Yes buffo answered But that does not mean his opinion is the correct one ... I'm not going to go into deatils, but I disagree with his interpretation. The point is: until there is a FAQ your group has to find a private ruling, our group ( afte considering everything) is that he is an ic an remains an ic.

[Bean]

This really isn't complicated, and Buffo has really nailed it.

The rule allows a Tyrant to join a unit of Tyrant Guard.

It does not make the Tyrant an Independent Character.

It does not cause the Tyrant to stop being a Monstrous Creature.

The Tyrant cannot leave the unit of Tyrant Guard because there is no rule which allows him to do so.

The Tyrant cannot be picked out from the squad, either in close combat or by shooting, because he is not an Independant character.

The Tyrant does not become an upgrade character and the Tyrant Guard do not become a retinue--they simply all become one big, happy, unit together which behaves just like any other unit.

[Duke]

Here is my thing, as I said before... Until there is a FAQ my group and I will be playig it differently. As of right now. I'm not saying your wrong, only that we haven't come to the same conclusion. It may very well turn out that I am eventually the minority and i feel RAI actually support your thoughts. So, in the short your right... It isn't that complicated, I'll play my way and you play yours, when the FAQ is released we can ressurect the thread.

Duke

[Caldera02]

Here's my question about this. Why word it the way it is? Is that to just bring it in line with 5th edition wording or something? Up until now, the guard has been a retinue. So why go out of the way to word it this way if it behaves the same exact way as before? Provided that the above statements are true. I still don't know myself.

Personally I think the guard still acts as a retinue because why else is the dang guard there for in the first place.

[HsojVvad]

Ok, for people who say the HT becomes an IC once joining a TG let's try this. So what you are telling me, once a HT joins a TG brood he becomes an IC correct? So he can't be picked off in shooting but in CC correct? If we go by this, since the HT is now an IC, he can leave the TG and join a brood of say gaunts. He is an IC after all as you say he becomes. No where in the rules does it say it looses it's IC status so I will join my HT to a TG so he becomes and IC and then leave the TG and join a brood of gaunts.

I don't believe this how it works, because he never becomes an IC. But it you say he becomes an IC, he never looses it because it dosn't say he looses his status and then can join any other brood, maybe a brood of 3 Carnifex or 30 Gaunts. Oh that would be nice, 30 shoots before a single one hits the HT.

Why are we having a hard time with this rule? The HT joins the HG as if he was an IC. That's it, it gets no other bonuses for being an IC. Since the HT is not an IC he can't leave the brood anymore. The TG does not make the HT an IC otherwise if it did, the HT can join any other unit he wants to then.

[HsojVvad]

Yes buffo answered But that does not mean his opinion is the correct one ... I'm not going to go into deatils, but I disagree with his interpretation. The point is: until there is a FAQ your group has to find a private ruling, our group ( afte considering everything) is that he is an ic an remains an ic.

Please go into details. If we read your reasoning we can change our minds then. If not we have to assume we are correct since you are not correcting us.

[Madjob]

Ok, for people who say the HT becomes an IC once joining a TG let's try this. So what you are telling me, once a HT joins a TG brood he becomes an IC correct? So he can't be picked off in shooting but in CC correct? If we go by this, since the HT is now an IC, he can leave the TG and join a brood of say gaunts. He is an IC after all as you say he becomes. No where in the rules does it say it looses it's IC status so I will join my HT to a TG so he becomes and IC and then leave the TG and join a brood of gaunts.

I don't believe this how it works, because he never becomes an IC. But it you say he becomes an IC, he never looses it because it dosn't say he looses his status and then can join any other brood, maybe a brood of 3 Carnifex or 30 Gaunts. Oh that would be nice, 30 shoots before a single one hits the HT.

Why are we having a hard time with this rule? The HT joins the HG as if he was an IC. That's it, it gets no other bonuses for being an IC. Since the HT is not an IC he can't leave the brood anymore. The TG does not make the HT an IC otherwise if it did, the HT can join any other unit he wants to then.

People made the exact same arguments about why counter-assaulters don't get furious charge and can't have defensive grenades used against them - "exactly as if" seemed to be exclusive to the one condition it referred to. It excludes all other rules related to the rule it's referring to - striking at I1 for assaulting through cover/dangerous terrain tests, etc.

Now we have a FAQ (an admittedly confusing one) that rules otherwise, giving precedent to an argument to the contrary in concern to the HT. In addition, consider that the wording is an exception rather than a new behavior. The Hive Tyrant (and Swarmlord) is established as a Monstrous Creature and not an Independent Character as well. He therefore behaves as a Monstrous Creature and not as an Independent Character. In the case of the Tyrant Guard, we are given an exception - the Hive Tyrant behaves as an Independent Character and can join a unit of Tyrant Guard, "exactly as if". Finally remember that we have no rules concerning mixed units of MCs and non-MCs EXCEPT in the case of IC MCs joining non-MC units. Even if we accept Buffo's ruling, we still have no idea how we are supposed to treat this unit unless we fall back on the rules regarding IC MCs.

[DarkLink]

Please go into details. If we read your reasoning we can change our minds then. If not we have to assume we are correct since you are not correcting us.

Well, we shouldn't assume we're correct, just that we've come to the best possible conclusion. That way if a flaw in our logic pops up, we can easily adjust the conclusion without getting caught up on right or wrong.

[Bean]

Even if we accept Buffo's ruling, we still have no idea how we are supposed to treat this unit unless we fall back on the rules regarding IC MCs.

All of the rules for normal units work just fine, even if one or more of the models in the unit are monstrous creatures. We have all the rules we need for dealing with a unit containing a monstrous creature, whether that monstrous creature is an IC or not.

What particular situations do you think the extant rules would leave unclear, were the Tyrant a part of the unit but not an IC?

[Madjob]

All of the rules for normal units work just fine, even if one or more of the models in the unit are monstrous creatures. We have all the rules we need for dealing with a unit containing a monstrous creature, whether that monstrous creature is an IC or not.

What particular situations do you think the extant rules would leave unclear, were the Tyrant a part of the unit but not an IC?

Off the top of my head - how do we treat cover for such a unit? Since we don't know that you can target the MC independently, since we lack a rule stating such as with the IC MC mixed squad rules, how do you handle that? If the unit is composed of 2 Tyrant Guard and a Hive Tyrant, and the Tyrant Guard are standing in cover but the Hive Tyrant isn't, does he get cover even though he is not in cover according to the rules for Monstrous Creatures?

[Duke]

Ok here is my thinking so far. The rules state that the HT joins "As if," he was an IC. This means that if a Hive Tyrant joins a squad of Tyrant Guard then he is treated as if he was an IC, this means (according to page 49 brb) that he can be targeted seperatly.

Now, I don't think this is how the Rules as Intended should present the Tyrant Guard. However, I don't think he acts as a IC when he attatches and then stops after that. My feeling is that as long as he is joined to the unit then he is an IC.

As I said I am not trying to say Im right and anyone else is wrong, just that my current interpretation is different than some others.

Duke

[Nabterayl]

Off the top of my head - how do we treat cover for such a unit? Since we don't know that you can target the MC independently, since we lack a rule stating such as with the IC MC mixed squad rules, how do you handle that? If the unit is composed of 2 Tyrant Guard and a Hive Tyrant, and the Tyrant Guard are standing in cover but the Hive Tyrant isn't, does he get cover even though he is not in cover according to the rules for Monstrous Creatures?
Same way as you treat any other unit. For each model, check whether that model is "in cover." If at least 50% of the models in the unit are "in cover" then the entire unit is entitled to a 4+ cover save. The only difference is that the rules for determining whether a tyrant guard model is "in cover" are different than the rules for determining whether a hive tyrant is "in cover."

[Caldera02]

Shooting at the Hive tyrant and cover is irrelevant. If the guard is behind cover then 50% of the unit is also, therefore granting cover save. It's a double edge sword however in that you can almost always see the unit but they still get cover saves.

Now in my opinion and the way we currently play it at my store, the only real question that comes to mind when regarding how the wording of shieldwall is now, is weather or not in close combat does the HT count as an IC. We play it as he does but not sure if that is intended.

[Bean]

Well, Nabterayl, you really beat me to that one. And you're absolutely right.

Next objection, Madjob?

[Duke]

Like I said, we have been also treating him as an IC in close combat.

Duke

[Bean]

And as a house rule, Duke, that's fine, but nothing in the actual rule supports that interpretation.

The only way he is like an independent character is that he can join a unit of Tyrant Guard. He can't leave it, he can't be picked out in combat, and he can't be picked out by shots. Why? Because he's not like an independent character in any of those ways. He's only like an IC in exactly the ways that are stated--no more and no less.

[Duke]

And what you are stating is also fine for a house ruling, but nothing in the actual rule actually supports that.

[Bean]

No, pretty much all the extant rules support exactly that--and only that. I've already explained why, as have others.

[Ymir]

Here is how my groups nid player says this works. Basically the HT joins the guard and they can be used to alocate wounds from shooting. But in melee the HT can be singled out by models directly in base with him.

[HsojVvad]

Here is how my groups nid player says this works. Basically the HT joins the guard and they can be used to alocate wounds from shooting. But in melee the HT can be singled out by models directly in base with him.

But this is wrong though. Ok I will agree with you for a minute. So what I will do now, is join my HT with a Tyrant guard. Since now he is an IC he will leave the TG and join a brood of Carnis or a brood of 30 termagaunts. You are making him out to be an IC, so there for once he joins TG, he becomes an IC.

If we go that the HT can be picked out in CC like a IC, then he can leave and join another brood then. It's only fair.

You are making a rule that benifits you without any proof. So by going by your logic, it's only fair to go by my logic then.

*edit* when I say you, I mean your group.

[Drakkan Vael]

Let's have a look at this from another direction:
Is the Tyrant by default an IC? - No.
Is he allowed to join any unit save the Tyrant Guard? - No.
Does the wording of the rule contain the words "the Tyrant becomes an IC by joining the Guard?" - No

Why would anyone join a unit of Tyrant Guard, when the Tyrant may be shot at or attacked in close combat while he is part of the unit? He would gain absolutely nothing.
In fact, he would be better of staying behind the Tyrant guard. That way he would at least gain a cover save by being obscured by the guard.
Following this, the rule would be obsolete.

The rule - which is a special rule that the Tyrant Guard has and NOT the Tyrant allows a Tyramt to join the unit "as if he were an independent caracter".
This is a subjunctive. "As if" is not the same as "he becomes".

The rule does not change the Tyrant into an IC. Simply because it does not say so.
The rule does not say he should be treated like an IC in regards to shooting or cc.
The wording of the rule as written is quite clear.

[Madjob]

Let's have a look at this from another direction:
Is the Tyrant by default an IC? - No.
Is he allowed to join any unit save the Tyrant Guard? - No.
Does the wording of the rule contain the words "the Tyrant guard becomes an IC by joining the Guard?" - No

Why would anyone join a unit of Tyrant Guard, when the Tyrant may be shot at or attacked in close combat while he is part of the unit? He would gain absolutely nothing.
In fact, he would be better of staying behind the Tyrant guard. That way he would at least gain a cover save by being obscured by the guard.
Following this, the rule would be obsolete.

The rule - which is a special rule that the Tyrant Guard has and NOT the Tyrant allows a Tyramt to join the unit "as if he were an independent caracter".
This is a subjunctive. "As if" is not the same as "he becomes".

The rule does not change the Tyrant into an IC. Simply because it does not say so.
The rule does not say he should be treated like an IC in regards to shooting or cc.
The wording of the rule as written is quite clear.

It's not clear because it creates some pseudo IC-but-not-IC state that has not existed in 40k until this point. Why they couldn't have left it as a retinue (clearly the sort of effect they had intended) I have no idea...

And again I'd like to point out the awkward precedent set by the Space Wolves FAQ's treatment of a similar "as if" situation in regards to counter-assault and furious charge. The entire argument you set forward is based on a strict distinction between the letters used yet we already have an example of the contrary. It is indeed a "GW House Rule", but it goes a good way towards showing that your imaginary line between "as if" and "is treated as/becomes" is not as clear cut as you think it is.

[Bean]

It may not be clear-cut in the minds of the GW authors, Madjob, but it's perfectly clear in real English. The fact that the authors are, as evidenced by their answer in the SW FAQ, idiots doesn't change the fact that the wording is clear.

[Drakkan Vael]

It's not clear because it creates some pseudo IC-but-not-IC state that has not existed in 40k until this point. Why they couldn't have left it as a retinue (clearly the sort of effect they had intended) I have no idea...

And again I'd like to point out the awkward precedent set by the Space Wolves FAQ's treatment of a similar "as if" situation in regards to counter-assault and furious charge. The entire argument you set forward is based on a strict distinction between the letters used yet we already have an example of the contrary. It is indeed a "GW House Rule", but it goes a good way towards showing that your imaginary line between "as if" and "is treated as/becomes" is not as clear cut as you think it is.

I have to disagree. There is no pseudo IC-but-not-IC state. The rule simply says the Tyrant may join the Guard as if he was an IC.
He is not as the rule does not state it.

The only thing I can base the distinction between "as if" and "becomes" or "is treated like" IS the rule as written and nothing else.

You base the assumption to the contrary on a problem in the Space Wolves FAQ that has nothing to do with the problem you detected her at all. It is a completely different situation.

[Caldera02]

Let's have a look at this from another direction:
Is the Tyrant by default an IC? - No.
Is he allowed to join any unit save the Tyrant Guard? - No.
Does the wording of the rule contain the words "the Tyrant guard becomes an IC by joining the Guard?" - No

Why would anyone join a unit of Tyrant Guard, when the Tyrant may be shot at or attacked in close combat while he is part of the unit? He would gain absolutely nothing.
In fact, he would be better of staying behind the Tyrant guard. That way he would at least gain a cover save by being obscured by the guard.
Following this, the rule would be obsolete.

The rule - which is a special rule that the Tyrant Guard has and NOT the Tyrant allows a Tyramt to join the unit "as if he were an independent caracter".
This is a subjunctive. "As if" is not the same as "he becomes".

The rule does not change the Tyrant into an IC. Simply because it does not say so.
The rule does not say he should be treated like an IC in regards to shooting or cc.
The wording of the rule as written is quite clear.


I like this argument. Very well thought out and concise. Having read this, I am inclined to agree and will now play it this way. It makes the most sense. Allowing the Hive Tyrant to join another unit without being an actually IC himself and being susceptible to all of the IC rules.

One side note though, why word it in this manner at all and just retain the old retinue version. The only thing at the moment I can think of is to allow the HT to leave the guard maybe? However, the shieldwall rule only says join and not leave so I still don't understand why they worded the rule in such a manner.

[Ferro]

Let's have a look at this from another direction:
Is the Tyrant by default an IC? - No.
Is he allowed to join any unit save the Tyrant Guard? - No.
Does the wording of the rule contain the words "the Tyrant guard becomes an IC by joining the Guard?" - No

Why would anyone join a unit of Tyrant Guard, when the Tyrant may be shot at or attacked in close combat while he is part of the unit? He would gain absolutely nothing.
In fact, he would be better of staying behind the Tyrant guard. That way he would at least gain a cover save by being obscured by the guard.
Following this, the rule would be obsolete.

The rule - which is a special rule that the Tyrant Guard has and NOT the Tyrant allows a Tyramt to join the unit "as if he were an independent caracter".
This is a subjunctive. "As if" is not the same as "he becomes".

The rule does not change the Tyrant into an IC. Simply because it does not say so.
The rule does not say he should be treated like an IC in regards to shooting or cc.
The wording of the rule as written is quite clear.

Yes. DV nailed it here, gold medal answer.
(just make a small edit, DV: "the Tyrant guard [ <--remove] becomes an IC by joining the Guard?"

[Drakkan Vael]

Yes. DV nailed it here, gold medal answer.
(just make a small edit, DV: "the Tyrant guard [ <--remove] becomes an IC by joining the Guard?"

Did that and thanks for noticing that.

[Lerra]

The annoying thing is that GW could have simply removed the words "as if he were an independent character" if they wanted the tyrant guard to act as a retinue. Adding that phrase only complicates things. It makes me want to strangle GW's editor.

[BuFFo]

The annoying thing is that GW could have simply removed the words "as if he were an independent character" if they wanted the tyrant guard to act as a retinue. Adding that phrase only complicates things. It makes me want to strangle GW's editor.

No, because they AREN'T a Retinue.

A retinue is a unit that the IC joins before a battle and stays until death, or loneliness.

The design behind the Tyrant and Guard is that the Tyrant can Guard can act as two units DURING the game, and when its convenient for the Nid player, they can join and become one.

I think its a wonderful game play mechanic. Very well thought out.

[Nabterayl]

I can think of two possible reasons why GW didn't say that the tyrant guard act as a retinue:

Starting with the eldar codex and going forward, GW seems to have been dropping retinues at every possible opportunity. I wouldn't be surprised if they have a design goal of dropping the concept from the game entirely, so they wouldn't want to write in a concept that they're trying to write out.
I'm not sure using the word "retinue" would actually solve anything. Only ICs can have retinues, so if hive guard acted "as" a retinue for a hive tyrant, I bet you we'd see a slew of threads asking, "Does this mean my hive tyrant is an IC???!?"

[pelmen78]

Not feeling particularly bright this evening. Which rule for cover is prevalent for the tyrant? Fifty percent necessary for being an MC, or half the unit (the guard, most likely) for being a unit? Some weird amalgamation of both? I really don't want to regret the three that are coming to me, though they will be a joy to paint.

[Nabterayl]

Not feeling particularly bright this evening. Which rule for cover is prevalent for the tyrant? Fifty percent necessary for being an MC, or half the unit (the guard, most likely) for being a unit? Some weird amalgamation of both? I really don't want to regret the three that are coming to me, though they will be a joy to paint.
Both. You're confusing the rules for whether a model is in cover, and whether a unit gets a cover save.

A model is "in cover" if it:
For non-vehicle non-monstrous creature models, has any part of its head, body, arms, hands, legs, or feet obscured from the point of view of at least 50% of the models in the firing the unit, or
For vehicle or monstrous creature models, has at least 50% of its hull (for vehicles) or head, body, arms, hands, legs, and feet (for monstrous creatures) obscured from the point of view of at least 50% of the models in the firing unit.
A unit receives a cover save if:
At least 50% of the models in the unit are "in cover."
Thus, it is possible for a hive tyrant to get a cover save even if it is not in cover, if it is joined to one or more tyrant guards who are in cover. Similarly, it is possible for a hive tyrant to not get a cover save even if it is in cover, if it is joined to two or more tyrant guards who are not in cover.

[Shallowain]

The annoying thing is that GW could have simply removed the words "as if he were an independent character" if they wanted the tyrant guard to act as a retinue. Adding that phrase only complicates things. It makes me want to strangle GW's editor.

No, they the rule is fine. It references the IC rules *how* to join a unit. If they left out this provision, there wouldn't be any rules by which to join with anyway. Or can you tell me, where the rules regarding *any* model joining a unit is located?

[Lerra]

The Tyrant is not using the Independent Character rules to join the unit. He is using Tyranid codex rules to join the unit. There is no need to reference rules that are not being used.

For shooting, you treat the Hive Tyrant as if it were just another model in the squad. The cover save rules for a Tyrant+Tyrant Guard are similar to the rules for a Tomb Spyder+Scarab Swarm (both are units with a monstrous creature and one or more non-MCs). From the INAT FAQ:

"Q: Is a unit made up of a Tomb Spyder and Scarabs able to utilize cover saves from intervening units and terrain that don't physically cover 50% of the Spyder model?

A: Yes, as long as half of the models in the Spyder/Scarab unit count as being in cover, then the entire unit gets a cover save regardless of whether the Spyder model itself is obscured."

[Shallowain]

The Tyrant is not using the Independent Character rules to join the unit. He is using Tyranid codex rules to join the unit. There is no need to reference rules that are not being used.

Wrong. The IC rules describe how you do the actual joining (moving into coherency). This rule is NOWHERE else stated. Therefore the IC rule is referred in the shieldwall rule. Otherwise you would have to describe the the whole process.




For shooting, you treat the Hive Tyrant as if it were just another model in the squad. The cover save rules for a Tyrant+Tyrant Guard are similar to the rules for a Tomb Spyder+Scarab Swarm (both are units with a monstrous creature and one or more non-MCs). From the INAT FAQ:

"Q: Is a unit made up of a Tomb Spyder and Scarabs able to utilize cover saves from intervening units and terrain that don't physically cover 50% of the Spyder model?

A: Yes, as long as half of the models in the Spyder/Scarab unit count as being in cover, then the entire unit gets a cover save regardless of whether the Spyder model itself is obscured."

Right answer, wrong ressource. FAQs from one codex do usually not affect another codex. The answer could somply be derived from the Rulebook (50% of unit in cover, no provision of the type the models).

For example, A brood of 3 Carnifex would be in cover, if at least 2 models are less than 50% visible. The HT/TG Unit of 3 would be in cover, if at least both Tyrant guard are in cover, or the Tyrant is less than 50% visible and 1 of the tyrant guard is in cover.

[miker]

I am of the view stated by Buffo and others that the Tyrant is NOT an IC when he joins the TG.

Therfore he can't be picked out of a group for shooting even though he is an MC and they are not.

However it DOES lead to a nasty in CC; Swarmlord and TG.

Equip the TG with whips. When the UNIT charges the Swarmlord can be in the back row as it isn't an IC.
The defenders take damage from the Swarmlord from the rear rows [usually], the front rows are all I1 and the TG batters them too.

Swarmlord is unattacked........i

[Xas]

I think that the rule is written to the best ability without adding onto it even more (like copying the whole procedure of joining a model to a unit.)

yes, if you just skim it you can get confused, but if you read it thoroughly and apply good text understanding skills it is crystall clear.

a tyrant can once per game (and unit of tyrant guard) move into 2" coherency with a unit of TG and then is part of the unit until either he or the TG are dead.

He cannot be shot nor be singled out in melee nor needs to be in base to base to strike in melee.
He neither can leave the unit voluntarily (unless you call hoping for a scatter with your template weapon to kill of your own guard "voluntarily" :P) at any time.


I also think that GW is phaseing out the retinue rules by reproducing the wanted effects with the other tools available (examples are completely independant units which still help the IC if he joins it like the space marine command squad, those that are available without but get "easier" on the FOC like orc nobs and those which are iron-hard bound to their character like the IG command squads and now the sort-of hybrid of the tyrant guard).



I'd like to discuss another question regarding the TG:
can a 2nd hive tyrant join a unit of TG that already has a tyrant?

the rules state that the tyrant has to be on its own but I read it that this condition does not apply to the TGs?

2 tyrants with 2+ save and 3 tg would be a monster of a unit (or say a HT with old aversary and the swarmlord so he can reroll hits!).

[BuFFo]

I am of the view stated by Buffo and others that the Tyrant is NOT an IC when he joins the TG.

Therfore he can't be picked out of a group for shooting even though he is an MC and they are not.

However it DOES lead to a nasty in CC; Swarmlord and TG.

Equip the TG with whips. When the UNIT charges the Swarmlord can be in the back row as it isn't an IC.
The defenders take damage from the Swarmlord from the rear rows [usually], the front rows are all I1 and the TG batters them too.

Swarmlord is unattacked........i

When the Defenders react, the Swarmlord will have to move 6" to make contact with the assaulting unit.

Also, not being a IC, the Swarmlord will still suffer wounds dealt to the TG unit no matter where it is in combat.

[Ymir]

HSo. Read the Ability in the dex. It says he becomes a IC for joining the TG brood...AND ONLY THE TG BROOD! Once he joins the brood he CANNOT LEAVE! Thus he "can't be picked out in shooting" but can be via CC if what is wanting to attack him is in base with him!

[BuFFo]

HSo. Read the Ability in the dex. It says he becomes a IC for joining the TG brood...AND ONLY THE TG BROOD! Once he joins the brood he CANNOT LEAVE! Thus he "can't be picked out in shooting" but can be via CC if what is wanting to attack him is in base with him!

On the very first page of this thread, I spelled out how the Hive Tyrant (and Swarmlord) work with the Guard.

How the Tyrant and Guard work together (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showpost.php?p=48751&postcount=8)

The Tyrant does NOT gain IC status at anytime. In close combat, the Tyrant/Swarmlord cannot be picked out of combat. He is just an 'upgraded sergeant' for all intent and purposes.

[HsojVvad]

HSo. Read the Ability in the dex. It says he becomes a IC for joining the TG brood...AND ONLY THE TG BROOD! Once he joins the brood he CANNOT LEAVE! Thus he "can't be picked out in shooting" but can be via CC if what is wanting to attack him is in base with him!

I can't find the rule that the HT becomes an IC anywhere. I read the rules for Shield Wall and it lets the HT join the TG "As if it were an IC". It dosn't say anywhere that the HT becomes an IC.

"As if" means it acts like an IC just to join the squad. Since it isn't an IC it can't be picked out in shooting or in CC. It's up to the Tyranids player to disperse the wounds. If there is 1 HT and 3 TG and 4 wounds, then the HT would get one wound after the other 3 TG gets theirs. If there is 3 wounds, the Tyranid player can choose to give the 3 wounds to the TG if he so chooses too.

Just so we know we are on the same page, what page are you refering to that says the HT becomes an IC?

Just if, and I mean IF, If we go by what you say and the HT becomes an IC, does that mean he can leave the brood now and join, say 20 or 30 brood of Termagants then? Because once he becomes an IC no where does it say in the codex that he looses it then.

*edit* I see buffo explained how it works perfectly as I was typing this.

[BuFFo]

Yeah, being page 6, I am sure most new posters to this thread will not read the first 5 pages. :(