Tyranids = Disappointment (???)

[crazyredpraetorian]

I am a little disappointed in the new nid codex. I really thought it was going to be a return to the great horde, But, it's just a new version of Nidzilla. Kinda of like Godzilla 2000.

[BuFFo]

All the 5th edition codecies are just 'average', and that is a good thing.

Codex Creep, while alive and very much kicking in Fantasy, has died in 40k 5th edition.

Welcome to the most exciting, fun and balanced edition of 40k yet!

[Hades Alpha]

Hi everybody

I'm disappointed by the new tyranid codex. Not because it's bad or worst then the previous, but because I had high hope for it.

I must say I'm quite new to the hobby so that might explain why I'm dissapointed:

Maybe a year ago, I saw the Ork codex and could see how good it was...
Then came the IG codex and I really thought the sky was falling...
Even more when I saw the Space Wolf codex...

So I thought the Tyranid codex would raise the bar again... Now having the codex in hand, I feel cheated. I was hoping for so much more. Again the new codex isn't bad, it's just average.

What's your thought on this? Do anyone feel the same?

P.S.: English is my second language, so be kind with me :o

[Chumbalaya]

All the 5th edition codecies are just 'average', and that is a good thing.

Codex Creep, while alive and very much kicking in Fantasy, has died in 40k 5th edition.

Welcome to the most exciting, fun and balanced edition of 40k yet!

Buffo nailed it. The new crop of books are very well balanced internally and externally, making 40k that much better for it.

And CRP, I dunno which book you're reading, but horde bugs is very much viable.

[crazyredpraetorian]

Chum, all I can say is just wait. Everyone will be playing Nidzilla....again....still. The IG codex provides some viable gunline list but, how many do you see at tournaments?

[LadasN]

Buffo nailed it. The new crop of books are very well balanced internally and externally, making 40k that much better for it.

And CRP, I dunno which book you're reading, but horde bugs is very much viable.

This and
Buffo: All the 5th edition codecies are just 'average', and that is a good thing.

Codex Creep, while alive and very much kicking in Fantasy, has died in 40k 5th edition.

Welcome to the most exciting, fun and balanced edition of 40k yet!

nothing new i can add.

[shadowtyrant]

Actually i think there are some internal balance issues in the new dex, more than in other 5th ed dexes, but that is not soooo bad. What really disappointed me was that the armies mechanic itself was totally changed.

Back in the old days Tyranids were all about mutations and their colective meta mind thing^^.
With the change from 3rd to 4th ed nids lost thier mutations, but were stull mutable and dynamic due to biomorphs altering the stats and weapons beiing related to the critters strenght. (Actually that was why i started with nids: you could create new bugs, cause every conversion you made altered the critters stats; it was the most dynamic army and the only one with such an ability).

But now the new dex get rid of this mutability completely. You can still make conversions (for example for the new units that don't have models yet), but all of em have the same static stats, no more mutations and biomorphs aren't real biomorphs, but plain normal eq/wargear. Nids are now as static as other armies with highly specialized units that are good at their role but at nothing else, and all with the same stats and many of the units don't even have the chioce to be equipped at all.

The second thing is the hive mind. In the past you needed the mind for the army to work, tactics were needed to defend the small amount of synapse you had.
But now you have synapse everywhere and the rules themself render the whole thing useless. There are even units now (and quite a few) that work better when outside of synapse.
But instead we got better psychics...

While nids have been dynamic, hivemind driven critters, they now are specialized static psychic bugs that play more like eldar now.

As you can see, i am one of those veterans that complain about the new dex being a different army now, but for everyone new to nids, it seems to be not that bad at all and you will have fun with them.
They are just not the kind of army, that i want to play, anymore
(this statements are not based on rumors, but on lots of tests with the dex; i have a copy since midst of december).

If you like the new way the army works, than just make a couple of test games and you will see, that they look much worse on paper than they really are; just give them a chance before you make up your mind

[Chumbalaya]

Chum, all I can say is just wait. Everyone will be playing Nidzilla....again....still. The IG codex provides some viable gunline list but, how many do you see at tournaments?

People will jump all over bugzilla like before, but this time 'round you aren't totally gimped by fielding a horde of medium to small bugs. A huge improvement.

[AbusePuppy]

I think the big change folks may not get about the codex is that Tyranids are all about suicide units. Everything in the book has at least one- and usually several- gaping holes in its defenses. And, unlike Eldar, you aren't supposed to cover those holes. You are supposed to shove them in your opponent's face and make them pay in blood for every unit they bring down.

Zoanthropes drop in and kill a Land Raider- oh, you missile them to death afterwards? Eh, they did their job. Hormagaunts swarm over a group of Terminators and nick them to death. Flamered on your turn? No problem, there's more where that came from.

Tyranids have always been portrayed as willing to ruthlessly sacrifice themselves for even the most minor gains in the fluff- it's nice to see this also represented in the tabletop as well. Is it very different from previous versions of Tyranids? Certainly. I loved being able to "BuildaBug," but it was problematic because no one ever knew what the stats on anything were. Is that Carnifex T6 or T7? What's the save on your Hive Tyrant? Do your Hormagaunts have WS4 or not? Is that guy taking the -1WS from being attacked by the Zoanthrope? There were too many ways to change your bugs in small (and sometimes not so small), annoying ways. The new codex is much easier to reference and keep track of. Most units have far more options- that is to say usable options- available to them now. (Seriously, did anyone buy Toxin Sacs for Termagants? Anyone?)

[Walls]

Are we being serious here? You're not happy because your army isn't the best most uber power creep army of the week? People wonder why there's been a serious degrading of fantasy and it's statements like this. It ruined that system.

Don't let that creep into 40k as well. It's an absolutely asinine and ridiculous statement.

[Akimbo Lizard]

Yeah, basically ( No offense ) the TC is complaining about the cost of his 8 MC he bought and now them being un-usable. I HATE PEOPLE WHO USE NIDZILLAS!!! I mean, have the decency to gamble with some units instead of screamig " LEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEROOOOOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYY!!! " while charging across the battle field;)

[DoctorEvil]

What's your thought on this? Do anyone feel the same?


Actually, I do feel disappointed with this Codex now that I have it and have gone through it.

With the other 5th edition Dexs, there was always something that I found appealing in the book that made me want to play that army. The new Tyranid codex seems very "blah" in comparison.

Alot of stuff in the Dex suffers from "Storm Trooper syndrome" in my opinion:) When the new IG Codex came out I initially loved the Stormtroopers. Great statline, cool new rules, I liked the models, both new and old. I knew they would be in every army list I made. Then I started making Army Lists, and had a hard time justifying the cost of the Stormtroopers. There was just always a better option to spend those points on.

I kind of feel like the Tyranid options are like that. Everything just seems too expensive for what it does. I've stand down to write up an army list a couple of times and have come away frustrated with the results, as i end up taking stuff I don't like from stylistic point of view. For instances, I dislike Gaunts. But the stupid Tervigon is the early leader for Codex MVP. So do you walk away from an MVP, just because you don't like it's style?

That's my big disappointment....I just can't find a "theme" for my Nid army. I love the Carnifex model, but like the Stormtrooper, the new Carnifex is hard to justify. I live the idea of a Deep Strike Nid force, but you sink a lot of points in MCs in order to capitialize on the DS syngeries. It seems like the previous Dexes had tons of different "themes" and the Nid Dex does not. Maybe it's just the type of thing where I need to just test somethings out and see how they work.....

[Madjob]

Yeah, basically ( No offense ) the TC is complaining about the cost of his 8 MC he bought and now them being un-usable. I HATE PEOPLE WHO USE NIDZILLAS!!! I mean, have the decency to gamble with some units instead of screamig " LEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEROOOOOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYY!!! " while charging across the battle field;)

When you assume...well, you might know how the saying goes. Hades Alpha never said a word about having a Nidzilla army, that was just you projecting your own personal views on Tyranid players.

Besides, if you hate Nidzilla, I can't wait to see your face in a few months when you see its new incarnation. Because it's not dead, I can assure you of that.

[Drakkan Vael]

Oh my god, we're all gonna die. The Tyranid codex is missing the I-win-button.

Grow up girls.

Yeah, the codex contains some disappointments, some lousy written rules, some loopholes.

The amount of pre-release whining is staggering.

As a matter of fact, I like the new codex. I have enjoyed playing them so far. And I think I'm continuing to do so.

I'm not disappointed in them at all.

[Mystery.Shadow]

The Tyranid Codex is NOT Overpowered. It's a very well written and BALANCED Codex.

Sorry there's no Codex Creep here.

[gcsmith]

The codex isnt underpowered..... i played 1500 yesturday against a friends hyped up uber list of death and i played with a noob list of suicide, i had the bad rolls and only lost due to letting him heroic intervention when he shouldnt of.

[Caldera02]

In our first tourney of the year here, I placed overall 9th and was on table 2 of 36 people with my nids. Then Jwolf leafblower'd me with his IG. It wasn't pretty. Next time....he's mine! lol

So the codex is great and people just need to learn how to play it. Stop whining, grab your sack and go punch people in the face with your plastic army men! wooohoooo!!!!!!

Summary: NIDS effing kick ***.

[gcsmith]

lol wat i think is new nid players like me, find it OP, old players who used nid b4 obviously find it too hard to think of tactics cus they are used to rushing lol

[acuk]

I played my first game last night with the new dex and meh, i dont have the biggest collection and its not the most killy list out there but i played a list that used to be fun at 1500 points, now we play 1850 so i thought i could realy get all my models on the table, no 350 points got me 2 warriors and a drob pod, every thing else had shot up in price more than my little bugs dropped, some were a better, zonathropes great, some cost more, warriors, carnifex's, and some were worse for more, winged tyrant im looking at you. Only some poor termi saves on my opponants part made it a bit of a fight, so for the models i own its not looking good. I feel like i am being forced to buy the new stuff due to the rules and costs, and thats what has annoyed me, i dont expect them to be auto win, but as they are not my main army i just cant justify the cost to bring them up to par and thats is the problem.

[Nikephoros]

That's my big disappointment....I just can't find a "theme" for my Nid army.

The theme seems pretty clear if you analyze the codex by thinking "the stuff the developers want us to use will be the most effective things."

1. Buy lots of gaunts. Buy lots of carnifexes and warriors to convert into tervigons to enable you to buy more guants. Swarm people with lots of gaunts and 4 tervigons. This is clearly the army list GW wants people to play.

[Cryl]

I feel like i am being forced to buy the new stuff due to the rules and costs, and thats what has annoyed me, i dont expect them to be auto win, but as they are not my main army i just cant justify the cost to bring them up to par and thats is the problem.

Not wanting to sound unpleasant but I'd argue that's your problem not a problem with the book. If all that happened at codex release was that existing units got improved the game would get pretty stale pretty quickly. Changing the relative effectiveness of units like the carnifex does sell more models, of course it does, GW is a business and the codex is designed to sell models and armies but it also helps keep the game fresh as well all adapt our lists to either use or cope with the new big hitters in the latest book

[Cryl]

It's true that some existing builds will suffer more than others from the change in unit effectiveness when a codex is updated, I guess that's really affecting the old style nidzilla lists that used lots of fexes more than anyone else.

I do agree that marines and guard codex updates both made the armies more interesting to play and introduced more variety in list building options (aside from some shockingly bad priced units in the marine book - vanguard I'm looking at you).

I only picked up my new nid codex yesterday and haven't read the whole thing in detail yet but at first glance it looks like troops are still rubbish although very cheap and that the main changes are in delivery (pods and deepstrike), HQ usefulness and synapse. The book looks to offer more variety in what kind of lists you can build, swarm builds look to be viable as do MC heavy builds although fexes are now fairly expensive which, if you take a step back, makes sense really given how effective they used to be / are.

Honestly I'd keep playing whatever list you have now for a while, that'll help to highlight areas where you need to change rather than reflexes kicking in and you getting the latest and greatest plastic beasties based on a game where you were probably concentrating more on the changes than on killing things.

[acuk]

I understand that Cryl, but when guard and sm came out most of the core was still usable, and i know it also has alot to do with what you face, my opponent has lots of lascannons and melts so new synapse hurts, but that's not true for everywhere, its more how much better the new models are, pyrovore excluded of course. Looks to be some great stuff in there, then a load of rubbish, no middle ground, they have to sell more stuff that's fine it just feels like they pushed it a bit hard this time, just feels like they are taking us for a ride. I didn't mean to come across oh my nids are rubbish now i hate gw, the game was enjoyable and rather funny in places, its just the last 2 updates for my army's (guard and marines) made me want to play them more and this one just hasn't delivered for me, not sure why but that's the way it goes, just my opinion

[Cryl]

damnit... double post again... someone please fix the spam timeout, it's making me spam!

[RogueGarou]

Dude, I have had one Chimera in my Guard army for years on end. Sure, sometimes I would like to have another one or two but I haven't bought one. I have done just fine with my Guard army without buying all of the new toys. I did win a great auction on Ebay a bit over a year ago and got five heavy weapon squads and two more 20 man Guardsmen boxes and a few odds and ends for $100 US but I was not forced to buy that.

No one was forced to buy Forge World drop pods. Or FW Valkyries. Or GW Valks. Sure, they are neat and cool but no one has walked up to my door and said, "You are hereby required to purchase a new Thunderfire Cannon box set." Well, maybe this one guy in our game group but he was just really enthusiastic about the new kit.

What I am saying is this, on any given day, any given army can beat any other army. It comes down to luck and to the person on the other side of the table. I have seen Terminators get wiped out by a lowly bunch of snotlings. I have had a Daemon Prince killed in hand to hand combat with two Tau Broadsides. Khorne Berzerkers beaten in hand to hand by Guardians.

Look at the good things you are getting with the new Tyranid Codex. I don't have a copy but from what I hear, Broodlords are now an upgrade character for Genestealer broods. Cool. Some or all of the big bugs cost more. Oh, well. I hear the little bugs cost less. OK, you take little bugs for less to free points for big bugs. Still sounds good to me. If I want to take more tanks in a Guard army, guess what? I cut points somewhere else to field what I want. Not what someone tells me I should use.

Look at it as a tactical advantage, as well. If most people decide to field unit X and that unit is vulnerable to weapon Y, people will build their list to counter X by including Y. Then they come across your army where weapon Y is still handy but not real useful. Your unit Z smacks their weapon Y around and they never stood a chance. Let's take the conventional wisdom about meltaguns as an example. Used to be, everyone took loads of plasmaguns. Now everyone says you have to take lots of melta weapons. They are trading multiple shots close in or a single shot at medium range for a single close range shot. You're Nids, most or all of your weapons were assault weapons. You've got range as well as mobility. Adapt your tactics to overcome how the other fellow is thinking and playing. If the other player is all about getting into close combat, shoot and move. If the other side is all about shooting, then even mediocre hand to hand troops will mess up his plan once they tie up the gunline. Everyone is trying to gun down big bugs and tanks so Gaunt up and swarm the enemy with Hormagaunts and Termagants. When you play someone who is tooled up for horde armies, screen some of your horde with big bugs or present both as viable targets and see which the other player chooses to unload on. Then smack them with the unit they ignored.

Instead of rushing out and buying all new models, try playing what you have differently and add a model when you want to add one. Unless you still have old Termagants with Spike Rifles or something else that was removed from this Codex, you still have viable models. Play them and see what happens. You'll never know how good you can be as a player or your army can be under your command unless you get them on the table and get to busting heads. Have fun, dude.

[AbusePuppy]

[quote]no 350 points got me 2 warriors and a drob pod,


no 350 points

2 warriors and a drob pod

wat



Tyranid Warrior
(Lash Whip + Bonesword, Venom Cannon, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs)
Tyranid Warrior
(Lash Whip + Bonesword, Deathspitter, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs)
Mycetic Spore
(Venom Cannon)

That's still "only" 185. I don't understand. I still don't fully understand!!

[Melissia]

All the 5th edition codecies are just 'average', and that is a good thing.
Except for Codex: Imperial Guard, which is awesome.

There is codex creep, but most of what we've seen is creep where there NEEDS to be creep, like C:IG.

[therealjohnny5]

Except for Codex: Imperial Guard, which is awesome.

There is codex creep, but most of what we've seen is creep where there NEEDS to be creep, like C:IG.
agreed

[david5th]

This edition of the Tyranids Codex reminds me of the 2nd Edition codex - limited mutation, simple book entries and ease of use + lots of background information.
I would say that this the best Tyranid codex since the 2nd Edition. (I know the games mechanics have changed dramatically just in case anyone points this out.)

[MarshalAdamar]

I like the new Nid codex (but I don't play Nidss!)

In fact all the new codex that have come out (My space wolves included) have been good but not to good, you got some different stuff but for everything you "lost" you made up for it somewhere and vice versa.

I do agree with Melissia that the guard codex is still by far the "most improved"

I've been really happy with the new dex's

But I'm still waiting on my new BT codex. Till then I may play them as blood angel’s successors! There's something appealing to me about a Baal predator with the Maltese cross on it!

[acuk]

wat



Tyranid Warrior
(Lash Whip + Bonesword, Venom Cannon, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs)
Tyranid Warrior
(Lash Whip + Bonesword, Deathspitter, Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs)
Mycetic Spore
(Venom Cannon)

That's still "only" 185. I don't understand. I still don't fully understand!!

my old list cost 1500, now that same list with 2 basic warrior's and a basic mycetic spore added to it costs 1840 ish, and it hasnt got any better, i must just be unlucky with the models i have and they arnt all fex's before you ask ;)

[Vepr]

I never played nidzilla, I only own 1 tyrant and 3 fex but I am not very impressed with the new codex because of all the vague rules and internal balance issues. We are better at taking on mech but still not nearly as good as other armies so it is more difficult to build and all comers list as we have to pay so much attention to taking on mech in our lists. It is also not easy to build lists under 1500 points but that is not the end of the world. My impressions of the new codex is not bad but not good either.

I have some issues with everyone saying we have a "more" effective horde in this edition. They are not anymore effective they just do what they are supposed to do. The difficulty for the nid small bug swarm is that they are not really any cheaper than other troops and they cannot take anything to deal with vehicles. Termagants are the same cost as a basic IG trooper but worse across the board. Gaunts are the same cost as boyz but worse until you start adding points. Stealers are a little cheaper than SM and can infiltrate and are nasty in CC but have no gun and wet paper for armor. Gargoyles are cheaper and fast but lost bioplasma and fleet etc. The bigger nids still suffer from all the wounds that spill over from the smaller bugs when they try to support them in CC. Nids will always depend on the bigger bugs for buffs and hitting power and the smaller bugs will always be cannon fodder.

[Renegade]

I dont see why the Pyrovore is getting a knocking. I can see its place and its uses. Put is along side Zoanthropes or in a unit protecting your flanks, or even up front with a unit or so of gaunts that have a venomthrope near by, and it suddenly gets very nasty, more so on the charge. *x power weapon attack, thats poison with a flame attack beforehand... Only PM are going to laugh at the poison attacks (I could be thinking of 3.5 though) and the flame attack will hurt most units.

There is enough str8+ to put marines to shame, expensive? so are power fists and anything else that is that strong, and the amount of rending that can go around is horrendous, and theres your anti-mech. Swarms of rending attacks, or a few fexs and thropes to bring down a LR or two, then much out on what ever was inside.

If anyone is disappointed with this codex, they really need to look again at the potential.

[DarkLink]

I dont see why the Pyrovore is getting a knocking. I can see its place and its uses. Put is along side Zoanthropes or in a unit protecting your flanks, or even up front with a unit or so of gaunts that have a venomthrope near by, and it suddenly gets very nasty, more so on the charge. *x power weapon attack, thats poison with a flame attack beforehand... Only PM are going to laugh at the poison attacks (I could be thinking of 3.5 though) and the flame attack will hurt most units.


2 power weapon attacks on the charge at WS3 isn't exactly intimidating, especially when it's easily shot to death long before it ever gets in range to use the heavy flamer and assault.

If only it had the hellhound template projector thingie ability, then it'd be fairly good.

[oni]

I'm pretty miffed about the Carnifex, no more head options. I liked 'acid maw' and 'tusked', but they are no more.

The hobby section leaves me wanting more. There's a few odds and ends that I don't care for, odd rules that just seem wonky (not to mention, universal special rules that work differently just because they're Tyranids), but overall I think it's a pretty solid codex.

Venomthropes are a lot better than what I thought they'd be. Tervigons are riding that fine edge between 'broken' and just 'over powered'. IMO, Hive Guard are stupid. I really like what was done with Genestealers and Broodlords. One thing that I'm on the fence about are the Mycetic Spores. I like the 'drop-pod' aspect, but not the 'it's a living creature with a full stat line' part. It'll be interesting to see people model it that's for sure.

[Renegade]

2 power weapon attacks on the charge at WS3 isn't exactly intimidating, especially when it's easily shot to death long before it ever gets in range to use the heavy flamer and assault.

If only it had the hellhound template projector thingie ability, then it'd be fairly good.

I'm going to have to take another look at the rules, but doesnt it get and confer a cover save? I think it really depends on how this unit, just like any other, is run. I guy with a flamer is craptastic on his own, put in a squad, then it gets nasty.

I can think of ways to make use of it, and get it to make its points back. Nothing is going to want to go into CC against it due to its acid blood thingy, but that is what its going to want to do. Put it in a swarm, or with something else thats going to want to go into CC, you than have either ablative armour, or use it as ablative armour and watch things that hit it die.Could easily go with a Zoanthrope or some such. I am not a bug player, just going from what I read in the Codex yesterday.

[DoctorEvil]

I dont see why the Pyrovore is getting a knocking. I can see its place and its uses.......

The biggest problem in my opinion with the Pyrovore (and even the Venomthrope) is that they take up an Elite slot of the FOC. I imagine that Hive Guard and Zoanthropes are probably going to be the preferred Elite choice for most Nid players. Lictors/Deathleapers will probably be see the table for alot of armies.

The Pyrovore just faces some stiff competition to make the cut for that Elite spot.

[BlacknightIII]

I happen to like the new Tyranid codex quite a bit. I was thinking about starting Eldar but im scrapping that idea to play these guys now!

I can see it now when my opponent sets up all his rhinos and melta tac squads only to see a swarm of gaunts, fexes and warriors staring him down!!!

[Scoota]

I will say that I really like the new Nid codex.

Sure, it plays very differently to the last 2 ed codices, but that's a good thing, yeah? Nids are an army that are supposed to evolve over time.

I played 2 games yesterday and I think the new army synergy is very good - Synapse has changed and this in itself brings a lot of changes (insta-kill warriors is annoying as hell).

MVPs of the games were the Swarm Lord (wow), Doom of Malant'ai (ALWAYS chuck him in a spore pod), and the Death Leaper (who killed a Land Raider with his Flesh Hooks). Oh, and poison attacks. I wasn't aware of just how good these attacks are if your strength is equal or greater than their toughness. Particularly on Genestealers. :)


I'm pretty miffed about the Carnifex, no more head options. I liked 'acid maw' and 'tusked', but they are no more.
Oni, are you talking about acid maw and tusked from a rules perspective? Rules wise, acid maw = poisoned attacks, and with with tusked instead of +2 A, you get +2 I.
Modeling wise... surely you can justify blinging up your Fexes with those heads. :)

[proximity]

Ultimately I'm satisfied with the codex. It's not so strong that its an autochoice to field them, but it's not so weak that you're shooting yourself in the foot to do so.

The thing I am enjoying so much is that it is full of equally good and viable units. People may wind up predominantly doing nidzilla, but it is in no way the only truely viable army. There is room for multiple builds at the highest competition level, and that is the benchmark of a quality codex.

[Brass Scorpion]

For me GW did an excellent job on the new Tyranids on both the Codex and the new models. I was thinking of selling my Tyranid army up until a couple weeks ago. Instead I bought the Codex, a Trygon and a box of Gargoyles already and painted the Trygon this weekend for the in-store painting contest hosted by GW. I wish my Dark Angels or Chaos Marine Codex books had the kind of colorful treatment the Tyranids just got and the book is full of fun conversion options for mid-sized and large monsters. It's a hobbyist's dream in print and polystyrene.

[Ferro]

...and in other news, Pyrovores still suck.

[Chumbalaya]

...and in other news, Pyrovores still suck.

Join the club, there's a seat for you right behind the Vanguard, next to the Ogryns.

[scadugenga]

Except for Codex: Imperial Guard, which is awesome.




I still miss my doctrines...and storm bolters...

Though I do like what they did with the Guard overall.

And, after having perused the new Tyranid 'Dex. It's also very good. It's just not what people were generally expecting. (IE huge power increases.)

Personally, the thought of having a 3 strong brood of 'Fexes staring at me across the table is freaking horrifying. Why?

Because it's a frikkin' unit. That means I have to do a minimum of 10 wounds to a T6 3+ save unit before it loses the first Fex. (4/3/3). Unless you have JotWW, or a farseer (or two!) with Mind War, you can't pick out and remove 1 fex from the herd first.

3 fexes almost guarantees them entering into CC before you can stop even one of them. And that's for 1 Hvy Support slot. Ouch.

And let's not forget paired boneswords. No armor save, and instant death regardless of Toughness if you fail a Ld test on 3d6. Which, on average, a Ld 10 character will fail. And I can think of no character/unit in the game that is T5 or over (save chaos daemons, I think) that have the Eternal Warrior rule.

A tyranid warrior could kill my Avatar in one hit. Or a Wraithlord. (particularly if toxin sacks are in use).

The new 'dex is chock full of hurt. And to balance this (thankfully) the 'Nids are more fragile than before. (Thank you no more flyrant with 2+/6++ saves...)

Losing synapse range isn't even that much of a loss, given the Feed/Lurk rules.

It's a strong 'dex. And it'll be interesting starting a (smallish) new 'Nid force, and learning how to counter them w/my Eldar and mostly infantry Guard armies.

[AbusePuppy]

Personally, the thought of having a 3 strong brood of 'Fexes staring at me across the table is freaking horrifying. Why?

Because it's a frikkin' unit. That means I have to do a minimum of 10 wounds to a T6 3+ save unit before it loses the first Fex. (4/3/3). .

I was thinking this at first, too. I was all like "Hells yeah three Fexes with Regeneration and double-dakka advancing across the field! You ain't killin' **** of these dudes!"

Then I remembered the rules for squads with multiwound units. You have to apply everything to a single model before moving on to the next. So you're actually less survivable than three fexes on their own, since it's harder to waste firepower on overkill shots.

[Cryl]

That's true so long as the models are the same in terms of weapon upgrades / biomorphs. I can't remember if you have to give all three the same upgrades, my other armies are praying that you do :p

[Lerra]

All carnifexes in a squad must be identically equipped. No playing musical wounds with carnifexes.

[Cryl]

Thank god for that... having to deal 10 wounds to a T6 3+ mob of MCs charging at me before I could kill one wouldn't be great, they're still pretty unpleasant even without the patened nob biker "we don't die" system of wound allocation!

Having now read my codex properly last night, I'm pretty sure this is overall better than the last one. Sure there's no more 6 fex lists to deal with but to be honest I'm now more scared of the Hive Tyrant than I ever was, mycetic spores provide even more mobility, lictors are now actually scary, Ymgarl genestealers mean that something you have will die pretty much regardless of what it is, Hive Guard look to be really effective, swarm armies can now be done really well with the Tervigon + loads of little bugs and the addition of a tonne more deepstriking monstrous creatures makes the book much more of a threat than the last one was, simply because I can no longer be sure of what makes up an average 'nid list.

Most importantly there's nothing that utterly panics me, I can think of a counter to almost everything just like the 'nid book provides a counter to almost anything my armies can throw at it. That makes it a good book in my, erm, book...

[scadugenga]

I was thinking this at first, too. I was all like "Hells yeah three Fexes with Regeneration and double-dakka advancing across the field! You ain't killin' **** of these dudes!"

Then I remembered the rules for squads with multiwound units. You have to apply everything to a single model before moving on to the next. So you're actually less survivable than three fexes on their own, since it's harder to waste firepower on overkill shots.

Ah, crap. I must've been brain-fried when I wrote that--you're right.

Still, the amount of firepower needed to deal with a 3 strong brood of fexes means the rest of your army is getting ignored...

[oni]

I will say that I really like the new Nid codex.

Sure, it plays very differently to the last 2 ed codices, but that's a good thing, yeah? Nids are an army that are supposed to evolve over time.

I played 2 games yesterday and I think the new army synergy is very good - Synapse has changed and this in itself brings a lot of changes (insta-kill warriors is annoying as hell).

MVPs of the games were the Swarm Lord (wow), Doom of Malant'ai (ALWAYS chuck him in a spore pod), and the Death Leaper (who killed a Land Raider with his Flesh Hooks). Oh, and poison attacks. I wasn't aware of just how good these attacks are if your strength is equal or greater than their toughness. Particularly on Genestealers. :)


Oni, are you talking about acid maw and tusked from a rules perspective? Rules wise, acid maw = poisoned attacks, and with with tusked instead of +2 A, you get +2 I.
Modeling wise... surely you can justify blinging up your Fexes with those heads. :)

Which are still good, don't get me wrong, but it's not quite the same. For example, if I give my fex Crushing Claws I'll strike at I1 regardless, so more attacks for being Tusked is far better. ;)

I still think fex's are pretty good, but their available options has significantly decreased. That above all else is what really bugs me. Living Battering Ram + Adrenal Glands (Furious Charge) is definitely nothing to complain about.

[david5th]

Oni, are you talking about acid maw and tusked from a rules perspective? Rules wise, acid maw = poisoned attacks, and with with tusked instead of +2 A, you get +2 I.
Modeling wise... surely you can justify blinging up your Fexes with those heads. :)

Am i missing something ? Is no longer a ' tusked ' option that gives you +2 I. The ' Living Battering Ram ' rule does but this applies to all carnifexes.

PS - Does anyone know how longer this 30 second post issue is going to go on for ?

[rle68]

""""And let's not forget paired boneswords. No armor save, and instant death regardless of Toughness if you fail a Ld test on 3d6"""""


this really doesnt do much as too many characters now are immune to instant death so big whoop

[Subject Keyword]

I think the new codex is really balanced. It reminds me a lot of the new IG codex in that it will age well. Guard are not an overpowered death machine, but they will play smoothly up until they get another update.

Space Wolves were like a giant *** comet hurling out of the sky and wreaking terrifying havoc on everything below. They destroy right now, but they are so kitschy and unbalanced that the rules will shift away from them and they will become a niche army.

The same thing happened to my favorite army, Necrons. They murdered everything when they came out, but the game moved on and they didn't have the tools to move with it.

I can only hope that if I get an update it will be as balanced and flexible.

[Ghoulio]

As a Tyranid player of over 15 years I have to say yes...I AM dissapointed in the new book, so let me tell you why.

First off, things I do like:
- Really like the fact that the book is more dynamic in regards to how you set up and play the game, which is great, and is what I was really hoping for the book. This one point is huge and the single largest asset to this book and does come close to bringing it back up to even with what I have listed in the down points.
- Amazing new models. Pretty much everything they have brought out is amazing. In my opinion the nids have one of (easily top 3) the best model lines GW produces. Period.
- The addition of unique creatures like the Swarmlord, Death Leaper and Old One Eye, really great to see the bugs get their versions of special characters. Its also nice to see some new faces in the Dex as well (*cough* Tervigon *cough*)
- The loss of Eternal Warrior. I think it is retarded to have something other then a specialist army like Demons to have that powerful of an army wide buff.

Now, the bad stuff:
- The sheer volume of redundant weapons. It really bothers me how many weapons are almost the exact same. Devourers, Death Spitters, Stinger Salvos are virutally the exact same gun. All 18", all between str 4-5, all between Assault 3-4. Also look at the blast weapons, all between str 4-6, all 18-24" range. The 4th ed book had 7 ranged weapons, the new has 25 weapons and the sad thing is they exact same level of variety.
- One that goes hand in hand with above is the cost of the weapons. Why is a twin linked Death Spitter (str 5, ap 5, assault 3, 18" range) the same amount of points on my Hive Tyrant as a Twin Linked MC Devourer (str 6, ap - assault 6, 18" range, any unit that has to take a morale test from this gun does so at -1). Clearly the second is a no brainer. Also look at Stinger Salvos vs. Cluster Spines. On a BS 3 model what would you rather have for the same points? A 4 shot str 5 gun (so 2 hits on average) or a str 5 large blast template? Again in my opinion, a no brainer.
- Lictors. This thing frustrates me so much, possibly the most in the codex. WHY would you give a model that has to enter via reserves both a Deep Strike Beacon AND a +1 to reserve rolls where he has to be on the table to use those abilities? If you are going to do that why not just give him infiltrate and when you shoot at him you use night fighting rules? All of a sudden he becomes a decent choice, and both of his main special rules are used.
- Trygon Tunnel. Same thing as the lictor. You have to have the tunnel on the board the turn BEFORE something uses it, and after they use it they have to sit and wait a turn to do anything. So, if everything goes 100% according to plan the Tyrgon will appear turn 2. Turn 3 the unit you want to come through the tunnel becomes available and is placed (this assumes it didnt come available last turn, because if it did its walking on from your table edge). Then on turn 4 you can actually do something. This is such a clumsy, down right useless way of handelling this rule. Why cant you nominate units that will come through the tunnels (one unit each tunnel)? Also, if they cant assault out of the tunnel why cant they just come up the same turn as the Trygon?
- Useless units. Every codex has units that arent as good as others, and really there is no way to get around that. This codex goes past that and adds in units you will NEVER take. The Venomthrope. A T4 model with 2 wounds and a 5+ save that gives an incredible buff to your army that is its own unit. This will die the first round of shooting every game, no question. It is also in the most heavily contested slot in the entire codex. Also, why does a unit WITHOUT ANY RANGED WEAPON have ws 3 but bs 4? I wish it was a Vet Sarge type upgrade for termagaunt units. Something like +65pts and he becomes the units task master, all of a sudden he looks amazing. The Pyrovore. If he was Str 5, T5 with Ini 2 and 3 attacks (the rest of the stats the same) all of a sudden he would be a decent choice, but of course still situational.
- The lack of an Invuln save on the Tyrant. For 170pts he should come with a 4+ invuln save as he typically comes out to 220+ (270-300 with wings). The nids are the only codex in all of 40k that doesnt have a single HQ choice that can get an invuln save.
- Why do all the MCs other then the Tyrant and Trygon have WS 3? I just cant understand why monsters that are basically created for hand to hand combat are just so darn bad at it. I think that Carnifexs, Mawlochs and Harpies should have WS 4, while Tervigons and Tyrannofexs should stay as is. I also think that Mawlochs should have Scything talons, because as is for 30pts more a Trygon is beyond heads and tails better.

I just bring up all this stuff in light of just how amazing the previous codex, the Space Wolves, was. That book just fixed everything, made things slightly better/cheaper to bring it into line with 5th ed while adding some really fun, neat choices to make the army more fun and unique. In contrast it just feels to me that the nids are a first draft that has an amazing ground work for what could be an incredible, balanced and fun codex. All it needs are some very small points/rules/stats tweaks and it would of been amazing. Anyways, just like anything posted here and this is 100% just my opinion and I know what I think won't change anything, so like the Tyranid army itself I know I must just suck it up and adapt :)

[DarkLink]

""""And let's not forget paired boneswords. No armor save, and instant death regardless of Toughness if you fail a Ld test on 3d6"""""


this really doesnt do much as too many characters now are immune to instant death so big whoop

Aside from Daemons, we've got Lysander, Marneus, Daemon Princes (CSM), Yarrik (?), Avatar (?), Phoenix Lords, Abbaddon and, um, I can't really think of anyone else. There might be a few more out there, I'm sure.

The point is, it's not as bad as you think. I can't remember the last time I played against something that didn't have Daemon in its name that had Eternal Warrior (not that my Grand Master cares:D).

[Scoota]

Am i missing something ? Is no longer a ' tusked ' option that gives you +2 I. The ' Living Battering Ram ' rule does but this applies to all carnifexes.

Sorry david5th. I probably wasn't particularly clear with what I was saying.

There is currently no tusked (+2 attacks on charge) rule in the new dex.
What I meant was instead of the old tusked upgrade, the current carnifexes have +2 I through Living Battering Ram.

Of course, Mr Fex now comes with 4 attacks base. :)

[Dark_Templar]

My biggest disappointment from the Codex is the fluff. Despite being hardcore predators, they always seem to be tripped up at the end by the heroics of a special character.

[scadugenga]

Which are still good, don't get me wrong, but it's not quite the same. For example, if I give my fex Crushing Claws I'll strike at I1 regardless, so more attacks for being Tusked is far better. ;)

I still think fex's are pretty good, but their available options has significantly decreased. That above all else is what really bugs me. Living Battering Ram + Adrenal Glands (Furious Charge) is definitely nothing to complain about.

Reducing available "customizable" options has been the name of the game with 5th ed so far. SM, Guard, and now Nids. Took customization out of it entirely. They've been "dumbing down" 40k for years. Perhaps to make it easier on the tourney players, or younger kids, perhaps.



:
Originally Posted by DarkLink View Post
Aside from Daemons, we've got Lysander, Marneus, Daemon Princes (CSM), Yarrik (?), Avatar (?), Phoenix Lords, Abbaddon and, um, I can't really think of anyone else. There might be a few more out there, I'm sure.

The point is, it's not as bad as you think. I can't remember the last time I played against something that didn't have Daemon in its name that had Eternal Warrior (not that my Grand Master cares).


The Avatar, being T6, does not have Eternal Warrior. Only the Phoenix Lords have EW in the Eldar 'dex. (and rightly so, considering their fluff.) Because at the writing of the Eldar 'Dex, nothing outside of Force Weapons, D Cannon/Wraith Cannon had the ability to inflict Instant Death regardless of Toughness value.

Now I'm 95% not up to date on the SW codex, so I don't know what has EW there, but I know there's nothing in the Guard Codex with it, and all of 2 SC (previously mentioned) in the Marine dex with it.

So Bone Blades will be the new scary "big bad" of HQ units and MC's in the future.

[scadugenga]

dp

[Madness]

The "dumbing down" is a usability issue, the problem is not that people is too dumb to remember, the problem is what Mark Rosewater refers as "memory issue", customization adds a ton of variants forcing people to memorize a lot of stuff, usually ending up in misplayed games due to forgotten rules/variant/special stuff.

Streamlining the abilities (by keywording them for instance) is meant for a more fluid game experience first and foremost (IE being able to play a match faster).

Of course, as with everything, it has its downsides and not everyone likes it, but it is the common consensus that it's a desirable effect in any updated system. See the recent D&D daily/encounter/at will stuff compared to the old magic system. Every game is moving in a new "usable"/"slender" direction.

[scadugenga]

The "dumbing down" is a usability issue, the problem is not that people is too dumb to remember, the problem is what Mark Rosewater refers as "memory issue", customization adds a ton of variants forcing people to memorize a lot of stuff, usually ending up in misplayed games due to forgotten rules/variant/special stuff.

Streamlining the abilities (by keywording them for instance) is meant for a more fluid game experience first and foremost (IE being able to play a match faster).

Of course, as with everything, it has its downsides and not everyone likes it, but it is the common consensus that it's a desirable effect in any updated system. See the recent D&D daily/encounter/at will stuff compared to the old magic system. Every game is moving in a new "usable"/"slender" direction.

Half the problem is you can still "customize" just by taking special characters (which I loathe, loathe, LOATHE.) Prior Nid codex customization did not bring much in the way of confusion. Neither did the Guard (that I remember.) No one I knew did anything with the Marine Chapter variant stuff, so I couldn't say one way or another.

Mark Rosewater aside (of whom I've never heard of)--I don't remember having any problems playing 2nd ed against any 'dex and having a "what does that do" issue that wasn't resolved nearly immediately.

Mk. I Warmachine through it's multiple books created a ton of new rules. Yet it still played easily and well.

Streamlining is good. Making everything a flavored carbon copy of each other is not.

And please don't get me started on D&D 4th Edition-I-mean-D&D-the-tabletop-MMORPG-clone.

[Madness]

It's also a WYSIWYG issue, customizing without having visible stuff on the field as a hint ends up being unintuitive. But I feel you, as a 2nd edition enthusiast I see where you come from.

And about the aforementioned. I had those problems constantly, people munchk-ing their way to obscure stuff created that specific issue.

[Chumbalaya]

New 'nid book has less options?

I lol'd

[scadugenga]

It has more unit options, but less customization within those choices.

[Lord Azaghul]

Are we being serious here? You're not happy because your army isn't the best most uber power creep army of the week? People wonder why there's been a serious degrading of fantasy and it's statements like this. It ruined that system.

Don't let that creep into 40k as well. It's an absolutely asinine and ridiculous statement.

Seriously. You don't want what happened to fantasy to happen to 40k. Fantasy isn't fun any more. At all!


I have done just fine with my Guard army without buying all of the new toys.

No one was forced to buy Forge World drop pods. Or FW Valkyries. Or GW Valks. Sure, they are neat and cool but no one has walked up to my door and said, "You are hereby required to purchase a new Thunderfire Cannon box set." Well, maybe this one guy in our game group but he was just really enthusiastic about the new kit.


Amen to that! I've been kicking the crap out of people with stuff from the Old Guard 'dex. I finally got a valk for xmas - brought it out for its first game last week - it fired one turn and exploded: just like I've seen every valk/vedetta do.


Except for Codex: Imperial Guard, which is awesome.

There is codex creep, but most of what we've seen is creep where there NEEDS to be creep, like C:IG.

Aye! I agree completely. The last guard book needed updating. And yes the format of the army was changed. And so was the nid's. It sounds MUCH more interesting of an army now, its just not the same army! Try somethin new, have fun.

[Vepr]

Go read the tourney report with Straken spanking the swarmlord even after they tried it again to see what would happen. Pretty much the new nid dex in a nutshell.

[Fizyx]

My biggest disappointment from the Codex is the fluff. Despite being hardcore predators, they always seem to be tripped up at the end by the heroics of a special character.

I think Orson Scott Card set the precedent on this one.

In any case, I don't see how this could be a complete disappointment. Yes, there are some things in the codex which make little sense, but I don't think it is at all as bad as people make it out to be.

Yes, Tyrants get no invuln, but the ubiquity of the 4+ cover save makes that a moot point. Yes, the Lictors' game entry rules sound disappointing at first glance, but it almost guarantees the rest of your reserves arrive turn three if you get the Lictor in turn two. It is a gamble; are you willing to chance?

The Venomthrope is another creature I think will see a lot of play. Not just one, but two or three. Yes they are soft targets, but the same 4+ cover save will help keep them around just a little while longer.

I will admit that some of the weapon stats are a little dodgy as compared to their cost, but I think it just makes planning your lists just that much easier.

I can tell you tomorrow will be a blast as I learn this new army.

[AbusePuppy]

Go read the tourney report with Straken spanking the swarmlord even after they tried it again to see what would happen. Pretty much the new nid dex in a nutshell.

Well s***, son, let's do this by the numbers rather than "I heard about this one time where a single Fire Warrior beat six Demon Princes to death TAU R OVREPOWERD!!!!11"

We'll say that, by some impossible Miracle, Straken gets the charge. I dunno, the Swarmlord ate his ride last turn or something. We'll assume each of them is accompanied by their pals, because otherwise they're retarded. The Guard will get no upgrades, even though it would realistically be using Boneswords (because we also aren't retarded), but that pushes the price difference even further. We'll max the CCS with all pistol + CCW, plus two Bodyguards.

Swarmlord + 1 Tyrant Guard
vs
"Iron Hand" Straken + 7 mooks

Swarmlord strikes first. It hits on 3s wounds on 2s. That's two successful kills, which they can either assign to Straken or his pals. We'll assume they lay the wounds onto joe schmoes, as is smart. Tyrant Guard strikes next, hitting on 3s (reroll 1s) and wounding on 2s. Rends and rerolls make it a little wacky, but we end up with just short of two average kills. The smart player will put the two wounds on Straken here because his models die in a single hit from the Swarmlord no matter what. He saves one-third of them, which we'll remember for later.

Straken and pals now strike back. The man hits on 4s and wounds on 3s; his pals, being less ferrous, hit on 5s and wound on 6s. That nets us one wound from Straken and just under a wound from his buddies. Straken's wound goes on the Swarmlord, who has a 4+ invulnerable. The other wound goes on the Guard, who has a 3+ against it. Hmm, not looking good for the fleshies.

Round two is a repeat for the Tyrant and Co., applying two more ID wounds (oh noes, more dead men!) and two more regular wounds (which kills one or two more mans, as Straken is "full" now.) We'll be generous and say three Guardsmen die this turn.

Straken and Co do significantly worse this turn- we get one wound from Straken and his two remaining buddies together are unlikely to even be able to muster a single wound against the beasts. Again, the Swarmlord takes Straken's hit and has a 4+ against it- probability tells us this is the first wound they have done to the unit so far.

Round three just gets worse. The Swarmlord and its friend are as nasty as ever, racking up four wounds between them. The two ID wounds will go on the schmoes, obviously; assuming at least one of the Bodyguards have made it this far, Straken can avoid taking any hits.

Straken, now all by his lonesone, strikes back. He ends up with another wound laid on the unit, which the Swarmlord probably takes. (He has the 4++ and can Leech Essence to get it back, after all.)

Round four is the end of it. Splurtch.

Final tally:
Straken and seven CCS members wiped out.
2/3 wound done to Guard, 1.5 wounds done to Swarmlord.

Incidentally, if the Tyranid player gets the charge things go far, far worse for Straken- it means they start the first turn with Preferred Enemy (which I never calculated in, for simplicity's sake), reduce the enemy to WS1 (so even Straken hits on 5s) and get the bonus attacks (though they don't deny the Guardsmen theirs thanks to CA).

[Vepr]

Well s***, son, let's do this by the numbers rather than "I heard about this one time where a single Fire Warrior beat six Demon Princes to death TAU R OVREPOWERD!!!!11"

We'll say that, by some impossible Miracle, Straken gets the charge. I dunno, the Swarmlord ate his ride last turn or something. We'll assume each of them is accompanied by their pals, because otherwise they're retarded. The Guard will get no upgrades, even though it would realistically be using Boneswords (because we also aren't retarded), but that pushes the price difference even further. We'll max the CCS with all pistol + CCW, plus two Bodyguards.

Swarmlord + 1 Tyrant Guard
vs
"Iron Hand" Straken + 7 mooks

Swarmlord strikes first. It hits on 3s wounds on 2s. That's two successful kills, which they can either assign to Straken or his pals. We'll assume they lay the wounds onto joe schmoes, as is smart. Tyrant Guard strikes next, hitting on 3s (reroll 1s) and wounding on 2s. Rends and rerolls make it a little wacky, but we end up with just short of two average kills. The smart player will put the two wounds on Straken here because his models die in a single hit from the Swarmlord no matter what. He saves one-third of them, which we'll remember for later.

Straken and pals now strike back. The man hits on 4s and wounds on 3s; his pals, being less ferrous, hit on 5s and wound on 6s. That nets us one wound from Straken and just under a wound from his buddies. Straken's wound goes on the Swarmlord, who has a 4+ invulnerable. The other wound goes on the Guard, who has a 3+ against it. Hmm, not looking good for the fleshies.

Round two is a repeat for the Tyrant and Co., applying two more ID wounds (oh noes, more dead men!) and two more regular wounds (which kills one or two more mans, as Straken is "full" now.) We'll be generous and say three Guardsmen die this turn.

Straken and Co do significantly worse this turn- we get one wound from Straken and his two remaining buddies together are unlikely to even be able to muster a single wound against the beasts. Again, the Swarmlord takes Straken's hit and has a 4+ against it- probability tells us this is the first wound they have done to the unit so far.

Round three just gets worse. The Swarmlord and its friend are as nasty as ever, racking up four wounds between them. The two ID wounds will go on the schmoes, obviously; assuming at least one of the Bodyguards have made it this far, Straken can avoid taking any hits.

Straken, now all by his lonesone, strikes back. He ends up with another wound laid on the unit, which the Swarmlord probably takes. (He has the 4++ and can Leech Essence to get it back, after all.)

Round four is the end of it. Splurtch.

Final tally:
Straken and seven CCS members wiped out.
2/3 wound done to Guard, 1.5 wounds done to Swarmlord.

Incidentally, if the Tyranid player gets the charge things go far, far worse for Straken- it means they start the first turn with Preferred Enemy (which I never calculated in, for simplicity's sake), reduce the enemy to WS1 (so even Straken hits on 5s) and get the bonus attacks (though they don't deny the Guardsmen theirs thanks to CA).

Straken now benefits from the SW FAQ ruling go read about how they are using it on BoLS front page. It is a BoLS author not something I picked up at a store. First time it sounded like the SL was wounded so they claim they ran it again with almost the same results even without the benefit of the priest giving preferred enemy if you read down in the comments and they had the swarmlord down to 1 wound before Straken died . Strakens aura is now very nasty for such a cheap character.

[Vepr]

I think Orson Scott Card set the precedent on this one.

In any case, I don't see how this could be a complete disappointment. Yes, there are some things in the codex which make little sense, but I don't think it is at all as bad as people make it out to be.

Yes, Tyrants get no invuln, but the ubiquity of the 4+ cover save makes that a moot point. Yes, the Lictors' game entry rules sound disappointing at first glance, but it almost guarantees the rest of your reserves arrive turn three if you get the Lictor in turn two. It is a gamble; are you willing to chance?

The Venomthrope is another creature I think will see a lot of play. Not just one, but two or three. Yes they are soft targets, but the same 4+ cover save will help keep them around just a little while longer.

I will admit that some of the weapon stats are a little dodgy as compared to their cost, but I think it just makes planning your lists just that much easier.

I can tell you tomorrow will be a blast as I learn this new army.

Problem is that it is not easy for a MC to get a cover save. Plus you want your Tyrant in the thick of things where a invul save is very important once you get tied up in CC. The codex is not terrible but I would not say it is good either.

[Renegade]

Doesnt the Swarm Lord produce Ripper Swarms if a model fails a save and dies, and then rolls higher than its toughness? Ok Straken "could" take these hits, but why go for the unit with him in first if there are easier ways of getting them before hand? Just keep Straken away from the Swarm Lord and thats easily a few more Rippers per turn.

[Vepr]

Doesnt the Swarm Lord produce Ripper Swarms if a model fails a save and dies, and then rolls higher than its toughness? Ok Straken "could" take these hits, but why go for the unit with him in first if there are easier ways of getting them before hand? Just keep Straken away from the Swarm Lord and thats easily a few more Rippers per turn.

You are thinking of the parasite character. The swarmlord does not produce rippers.

[AbusePuppy]

Straken now benefits from the SW FAQ ruling go read about how they are using it on BoLS front page. It is a BoLS author not something I picked up at a store. First time it sounded like the SL was wounded so they claim they ran it again with almost the same results even without the benefit of the priest giving preferred enemy if you read down in the comments and they had the swarmlord down to 1 wound before Straken died . Strakens aura is now very nasty for such a cheap character.

I was already assuming Straken got FC in the first turn of combat- that's why he wounds on a 3+ on the first turn. His pals don't get any benefit from the +1 Str, although I did forget the +1I changes the order of attacks slightly. It doesn't matter in the end, though, he still gets torn to pieces without killing anything.

The main-page example is silly because yes, if the rest of your army shoots something down to one wound and you don't heal up with Leech Essence, it may well die if it gets into a fight with a strong CC character. Hurr.

[Melissia]

You mean, if the Guard shoots stuff, it might die or get weaker? OMFG!

[BuFFo]

The main-page example is silly because yes, if the rest of your army shoots something down to one wound and you don't heal up with Leech Essence, it may well die if it gets into a fight with a strong CC character. Hurr.

Yes, um, tha'ts the whole point behind the IG. Shoot the enemy to death. The close combat is just icing.

[Vepr]

Yes, um, tha'ts the whole point behind the IG. Shoot the enemy to death. The close combat is just icing.

I guess that is my biggest problem. Everyone expects IG to shoot you to pieces just not butcher you in CC on top of it. It would be one thing if the cost was prohibitive but Straken is dirt cheap for what he does especially compared to nid MC's. :(

[Renegade]

You are thinking of the parasite character. The swarmlord does not produce rippers.

Thanks for the correction, I am not a nid player.
I played against the nid codex and that thing is just not nice, really not nice, in fact it was down right nasty.

[Melissia]

People have always underestimated IG's ability in CC. And overestimated their ability in shooting quite frequently, too, with all the cover saves that you can get...

[BuFFo]

I guess that is my biggest problem. Everyone expects IG to shoot you to pieces just not butcher you in CC on top of it. It would be one thing if the cost was prohibitive but Straken is dirt cheap for what he does especially compared to nid MC's. :(

Well, just FYI, the SW FAQ has been changed last night. Straken isn't an IG player's wet dream anymore.

So IG are back to shooting and hoping to survive the final turns out of combat.

[Deej]

ARGH! I've got 5 termagants with stranglewebs, 8 with spinefists, 6 with spike rifles... None of which are legal units any more, as there's a minimum model count of 10 per unit. At least the stranglewebs will be useful once more, but still.

[scadugenga]

People have always underestimated IG's ability in CC. And overestimated their ability in shooting quite frequently, too, with all the cover saves that you can get...

I've only been playing w/Guard for the last several months. (Eldar pretty much exclusively prior to that) And what I found was that I seriously underestimated the effect of massed lasguns. They ultimately got the job done better than the heavy weapons.

And that was before the 5th ed codex w/1st rank, 2nd rank orders.

[Madness]

You're in luck, still, you just need 5+2+4 termagants to get three units.

[Melissia]

True, lasgun spam is powerful, but I'm being serious when I say Guard and CC can surprise opponents, though I wouldn't rely on it.

[scadugenga]

True, lasgun spam is powerful, but I'm being serious when I say Guard and CC can surprise opponents, though I wouldn't rely on it.

I'll keep that in mind.

[Melissia]

I've seen Guardsmen take down Abbadon in close combat :P

[scadugenga]

Heh, back in 2nd Ed. I had an Eldar Guardian defeat a Terminator in close combat. If you ever played 2nd ed, you'll know what an impossible feat that was!