Challenges

[quindia]

Can someone walk me through a round of Assault Combat in 7th including a challenge?

Let's say a generic Daemon Prince charges a squad of five vanilla Terminators with a sergeant.
The sergeant accepts the challenge and is slain by the I9 Daemon and say extra wounds carry over and manage to drop one more... What happens now? Do the surviving three Terminators get to pile in (assuming they are in range) and make attacks or is the combat over?

[Gir]

Can someone walk me through a round of Assault Combat in 7th including a challenge?

Let's say a generic Daemon Prince charges a squad of five vanilla Terminators with a sergeant.
The sergeant accepts the challenge and is slain by the I9 Daemon and say extra wounds carry over and manage to drop one more... What happens now? Do the surviving three Terminators get to pile in (assuming they are in range) and make attacks or is the combat over?

The terminators get to attack the daemon prince, even if the sergeant survives.

[DarkLink]

Challenges now work fundamentally differently. They now only affect the order in which wounds are allocated. The character in the challenge allocates all his wounds to his opponent first, but if the opponent dies he continues allocating normally as if there had been no challenge. Conversely, a unit outside allocates all wounds to other models outside the challenge first. If they kill all the models outside the challenge, or the cha racter was on its own, then the woun ds allocate normally as if there were no challenge and the character takes those wounds.

Challenges no longer protect you the way they used to.

[Isaac Gutierrez]

So, yhe challenge now only works to see if one can kill the char first? There is really not much reason to keep challenges in the rules, other than the champion of chaos rule.

[DarkLink]

Now it allows for you to have your little duel without some of the stupidity of last edition. But, yeah, I never saw the point of them in the first place.

[daboarder]

Now it allows for you to have your little duel without some of the stupidity of last edition. But, yeah, I never saw the point of them in the first place.

Their point is to stop hidden power klaws and the like, and they manage to do that reasonably well.

Oh and to cause chaos champions to commit suicide (because heaven forbid we actually get gear to let us be half effective in a challenge)

[quindia]

Thanks, guys!

[DarkLink]

Their point is to stop hidden power klaws and the like, and they manage to do that reasonably well.

The problem now, though, is that the exact opposite is true now. It's utterly worthless to take anything more than maybe a combi-weapon on a character now unless they're pretty good in assault or aren't likely to see it.

[Houghten]

Except, if everybody knows that and therefore nobody's taking power fists, it re-inverts itself and suddenly it's worth taking them on your characters again because they're not likely to face anything more than a slap in the face with a wet chainsword.

Continue the endless cycle of inversion and re-inversion...

[This Dave]

So, yhe challenge now only works to see if one can kill the char first? There is really not much reason to keep challenges in the rules, other than the champion of chaos rule.

GW also likes the idea of heroic characters fighting it out rather than just killing mooks. I don't hate the idea as much now that the rest of the fight also matters I still wish you could refuse a challenge without such a harsh penalty.

[John Bower]

GW also likes the idea of heroic characters fighting it out rather than just killing mooks. I don't hate the idea as much now that the rest of the fight also matters I still wish you could refuse a challenge without such a harsh penalty.

I agree, the loss of Ld should be enough; not agreeing to be butchered by Lelith should not prevent a sergeant from fighting still. I mean, only a bleeding idgit would accept a challenge when they know it's suicide. It's not 'cowering in the back like a craven coward' to avoid certain death. More important the squad leader/army commander survives to lead the battle. Honour is for Knights on horseback, it died when the gun became the main force in battle.

edit: in fact you know what? I bet the only time honour came into play was in the tournaments, in real battles there's no honour. A knife in the back works better.

[Wildcard]

Grey Knight Brotherhood Champion got even more useless:
- Can only make 1 attack against characters (instead of hitting all in b2b)
- Lost all its codex psychic powers, so no more that skill when lost last wound and got 1 extra attack that would remove enemy model from play)

This multiplies with Crowe (in addition to above):
- Cannot cast cleansing flame in combat
- Cannot even join squad so there is a good change he is going to be all alone in the combat anyway

GK 'dex is so full of crap right now :(

[DarkLink]

Except, if everybody knows that and therefore nobody's taking power fists, it re-inverts itself and suddenly it's worth taking them on your characters again because they're not likely to face anything more than a slap in the face with a wet chainsword.

...no. No one takes power fists because when you run into an IC, you get slapped down without ever doing anything, not because the other sergeant doesn't have a power fist. The only characters worth taking upgrades for are things like the Chapter Master, or a character that you want to keep out of assault. A power fist sergeant definitely does not fall into either category.

[John Bower]

Grey Knight Brotherhood Champion got even more useless:
- Can only make 1 attack against characters (instead of hitting all in b2b)
- Lost all its codex psychic powers, so no more that skill when lost last wound and got 1 extra attack that would remove enemy model from play)

This multiplies with Crowe (in addition to above):
- Cannot cast cleansing flame in combat
- Cannot even join squad so there is a good change he is going to be all alone in the combat anyway

GK 'dex is so full of crap right now :(

Ah see it didn't affect me, my GK army consists of 2X termie squads, a Paladin squad, a Captain, Librarian, Grand Master and a Ven Dread. Librarian was handy in an Imperium list today against nids, he jumped the Warlord and unit (IG Company Command) to a required tactical objective netting 2 points for the army (Warlord had the 'Lead by Example' tactical trait). And up to 12 dice for casting was not exactly unwelcome either. :)

edit: Should mention that was because lvl 3 GK libby, Lvl 2 DA libby, Grey Knight squad (6 dice) and rolled a 6 on turn 1. Tyranids only had Hive Tyrant for lvl 2, so max was 8 for them. Little bugs still won though despite being Unbound vs Battleforged. Luck of the cards.....

[Thed Nome]

A few things. 1) can still cast cleansing flame when locked in combat... Just have to do it during psychic phase.

But to my question... when assualting does the challengers WS count for the cheerleader battle... IE if 9 Chaos Cultist ca harge a Pheonix Lord and one Scorpion... the Aspiring Champion Fights the lord (and dies horribly some excess wounds kill two cultists... the scorpion kills one more now the 5 Cultists swing at the scorpion... do they need a 4+ (vs the scorpion WS4) or a 5+ (vs the avg WS of 7) to hit. I think it is 5+ but would like some confirmation.

[DarkLink]

Cleansing flame is a nova. Novas are witchfires. Witchfires cannot be cast in combat. You cannot cast cleansing flame in combat.

[John Bower]

A few things. 1) can still cast cleansing flame when locked in combat... Just have to do it during psychic phase.

But to my question... when assualting does the challengers WS count for the cheerleader battle... IE if 9 Chaos Cultist ca harge a Pheonix Lord and one Scorpion... the Aspiring Champion Fights the lord (and dies horribly some excess wounds kill two cultists... the scorpion kills one more now the 5 Cultists swing at the scorpion... do they need a 4+ (vs the scorpion WS4) or a 5+ (vs the avg WS of 7) to hit. I think it is 5+ but would like some confirmation.

For that round the challenge is still considered ongoing so they hit at 4+, next round it would be 5+ (assuming of course they are still alive by then) :)

[Caitsidhe]

For that round the challenge is still considered ongoing so they hit at 4+, next round it would be 5+ (assuming of course they are still alive by then) :)

Actually, this is an assumption. We do not know if the non-challenge participants hit with the same WS as the person in the Challenge. I expect they hit with the average WS of the people not in the Challenge. Either way is an assumption and requires a Faq.

[Haighus]

I agree, the loss of Ld should be enough; not agreeing to be butchered by Lelith should not prevent a sergeant from fighting still. I mean, only a bleeding idgit would accept a challenge when they know it's suicide. It's not 'cowering in the back like a craven coward' to avoid certain death. More important the squad leader/army commander survives to lead the battle. Honour is for Knights on horseback, it died when the gun became the main force in battle.

edit: in fact you know what? I bet the only time honour came into play was in the tournaments, in real battles there's no honour. A knife in the back works better.

Yeah, as an IG player, I agree with this- a squad Sergeant is more likely (depending on world of birth) to carry on laying about at the enemy around him and ignore some crazy cultist leader screaming at him from the other side of the melee than suddenly charge over, and refusing that challenge shouldn't have such a harsh penalty.

As for the honour of medieval knights, they usually did uphold it in battle as well as tournies, a knife in the back gets you no money. The easiest way for a knight to get rich quick was to capture a wealthier knight in the opposing army, the chivalry rules protected this. Peasants and yeomanry, however, could expect no quarter, and none was given in return. Simply because they were generally worthless, only nobles had a ransom. Medieval honour was protected by greed.

[Thaldin]

"I have captured your Space Marine Sgt. I will ransom him back to you for an extra 500 points in our next game!"

[mocapman]

We had a scenario last night where a unit of CSM terminators with Abbadon charged a squad of marines in cover. Abbadon challenged and it was accepted by the sergeant. The sergeant and the marines piled in but could only get into base combat with Abbadon. This therefore led to all of the marines being within striking distance of Abbadon but not the rest of the squad. The dilemma was, can the marines attack the rest of the terminators through Abbadon as they are in base contact with him even though he is in a challenge? If so would you use Abbadons WS instead of the termies WS?

We couldn't see any example of them not being allowed as they are technically locked in combat and in base contact or within 2" of a model in base contact as per the rules for attacking in CC...

Thanks :)

[Caitsidhe]

We had a scenario last night where a unit of CSM terminators with Abbadon charged a squad of marines in cover. Abbadon challenged and it was accepted by the sergeant. The sergeant and the marines piled in but could only get into base combat with Abbadon. This therefore led to all of the marines being within striking distance of Abbadon but not the rest of the squad. The dilemma was, can the marines attack the rest of the terminators through Abbadon as they are in base contact with him even though he is in a challenge? If so would you use Abbadons WS instead of the termies WS?

We couldn't see any example of them not being allowed as they are technically locked in combat and in base contact or within 2" of a model in base contact as per the rules for attacking in CC...

Thanks :)

You over thought the issue. While the Challenge may be between Abby and the Sgt. they are still involved in the same overall combat. As long as your Terminators are within 2" of someone in base to base combat with an enemy model, they get to make their attacks. Since Abby was base to base with the Sgt. the Chaos Terminators and the Marines on the other side (all within 2" of their respective leader) would get to attack each other.

[mocapman]

You over thought the issue. While the Challenge may be between Abby and the Sgt. they are still involved in the same overall combat. As long as your Terminators are within 2" of someone in base to base combat with an enemy model, they get to make their attacks. Since Abby was base to base with the Sgt. the Chaos Terminators and the Marines on the other side (all within 2" of their respective leader) would get to attack each other.

That's great. Thank you :)

[John Bower]

Actually, this is an assumption. We do not know if the non-challenge participants hit with the same WS as the person in the Challenge. I expect they hit with the average WS of the people not in the Challenge. Either way is an assumption and requires a Faq.

How is it an assumption, they are hitting the Scorpion not the Avatar.... The scorpion's WS isn't high enough to make them hit on 5's, the avatars WS doesn't count as he is locked in combat with and only with their champion. Although it may be part of the 'ongoing combat' they are clearly stated to 'not be able' to attack him on the round their champion dies, so can still only hit the Scorpion who is only WS4, a mere 1 above them forcing them to hit on 4's. Ruling in the rulebook is enough for this as you put it 'assumption'.

[Caitsidhe]

How is it an assumption, they are hitting the Scorpion not the Avatar.... The scorpion's WS isn't high enough to make them hit on 5's, the avatars WS doesn't count as he is locked in combat with and only with their champion. Although it may be part of the 'ongoing combat' they are clearly stated to 'not be able' to attack him on the round their champion dies, so can still only hit the Scorpion who is only WS4, a mere 1 above them forcing them to hit on 4's. Ruling in the rulebook is enough for this as you put it 'assumption'.

I may have misunderstood you. The rules now allow the "moral support crowd" to attack the guy inside the challenge if nobody else remains for them to fight while the challenge is going on. For some reason I thought you were arguing that the peons could hit as accurately as the they guy in the Challenge.

[Lord Krungharr]

My biggest issue with Challenges is I usually forget to issue one, especialy with my Daemon guys who need to be issuing them. Like when my Bloodthirster made it into combat with a (LUCKILY) grounded Fateweaver. Next turn the Lord of Change flew in and issued one, thus my Bloodthirster was unable to finish off that last Fatey wound :(

Very very interesting that the rest of the squads can hit the Challenger/Challengee if all the rest are dead. That's gonna change some meta, somehow, probably, somewhere....

[Caitsidhe]

My biggest issue with Challenges is I usually forget to issue one, especialy with my Daemon guys who need to be issuing them. Like when my Bloodthirster made it into combat with a (LUCKILY) grounded Fateweaver. Next turn the Lord of Change flew in and issued one, thus my Bloodthirster was unable to finish off that last Fatey wound :(

Very very interesting that the rest of the squads can hit the Challenger/Challengee if all the rest are dead. That's gonna change some meta, somehow, probably, somewhere....

It primarily just affects MC & FMC that also happen to be characters. In other words, my Daemon Prince can challenge but he is fighting them all anyway. He is just getting to carve up a Character first.

[John Bower]

I may have misunderstood you. The rules now allow the "moral support crowd" to attack the guy inside the challenge if nobody else remains for them to fight while the challenge is going on. For some reason I thought you were arguing that the peons could hit as accurately as the they guy in the Challenge.

No worries; easy to do on forums :)

[Wildcard]

How does it work with models whose attack characteristic depends on the enemy models in base to base contact in these two scerarios:
- Character makes a single attack that hits all opponents in base to base contact
- Character gets 1 attack from each of the enemy models in base to base contact (not sure if this is perfect wording / are there any units with this type of rule - i might mix it up with something similar)

Assumptions: Character (A) has the before mentioned special rule is alone and enemy has character (B) + enough models to surround the Character A

[John Bower]

If you are alone the other models in the squad can still hit you; this can work to the squad's advantage actually for tying down single MC's/Powerful chars as the sgt just has to challenge them to make them hit him and only him for a bit. As to special attacks that 'hit all models in B2B contact' I would say they still only get to hit the challenger, since technically they are only in B2B with him/her.

[DarkLink]

The FMC doesnt only hit the character, it just hits the character first.

[Caitsidhe]

The FMC doesnt only hit the character, it just hits the character first.

Correct. It has the benefit, at least, of eliminating "Look Out Sir" defenses for the character in the Challenge.

[John Bower]

The FMC doesnt only hit the character, it just hits the character first.

I think perhaps my point wasn't clear, if they don't kill him; they still can't hit the rest of the squad who can still hit them. :)

[DarkLink]

Which is irrelevant, because if the FMC whiffs and doesn't kill anything, it doesn't matter if it was in a challenge or not.

[John Bower]

Ah but without the challenge it might have, if you have for example a bunch of marines and the captain with them; captain has invuln and makes it saving the squad who don't from getting munched. But in the meantime of course they can still hit back. So of course it's relevant. :)

[Asuryan]

But considering if the Captain was in base to base with the MC he is equal distance as all the marines so you could allocate the wounds to the Captain anyway.

[John Bower]

But considering if the Captain was in base to base with the MC he is equal distance as all the marines so you could allocate the wounds to the Captain anyway.

True say; unless he rolls a '6' to hit you, in which case he may choose to hit the marines instead due to being able to instagib them. :)

[DarkLink]

Characters don't have precision shots anymore, so no, actually, he can't.

[John Bower]

Characters don't have precision shots anymore, so no, actually, he can't.

Oh, okay, fair enough. So no point anyone challenging then in that situation. Except CSM - who don't have a choice in the matter.