The Worlds gone bonkers

[daboarder]

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-10/tony-abbott-finds-friend-in-canadian-pm-harper-over-carbon-tax/5511252

Since when were Australia and Canada bastions of right wing stupidity?

[Necron2.0]

I don't know much about either one, but based solely on what I read, is it really honest to say they're bastions of "right wing stupidity?"

Maybe they're just two leaders who don't want to ruin their respective economies chasing policies they don't believe in.

[Kaptain Badrukk]

I don't know much about either one, but based solely on what I read, is it really honest to say they're bastions of "right wing stupidity?"

Maybe they're just two leaders who don't want to ruin their respective economies chasing policies they don't believe in.

As an Australian resident I point you to this http://sallymcmanus.net/abbotts-wreckage/
I know nothing of Canada other than that Mounties are an awesome concept (but that's because I watched too much Due South).

[daboarder]

is it really honest to say they're bastions of "right wing stupidity?"


It certainly is in Abbotts case. man is so tea party he makes them look like a good alternative

actually no, hes a straight up facist. What is happening here at the moment is entirely reminiscent of germany in the 30's. right down to the vilification and exclusion of social "undesirables"

[Morgrim]

Given the sheer amount of protests and the fact they threatened to call riot police to a university, I'm hoping that Abbott gets trounced before we end up with a proper fight and/or the first ever PM assassinated. At least all the minor parties are slowly starting to align against him, which means the chances of a double dissolution are veering upwards. If it happens soon he won't survive it.

[daboarder]

Technically speaking the pm has to request a dd (the fact that the opposition requested one was what made the dismissal a controversy). But the senate has its own ways of forcing the GG to dissolve parliament

[Wolfshade]

It is typical politicing.

And this is why ruling by popular vote is a bad thing.

When things are going well, low unemployement, improving standards of living, strong economy stuff, then it is fine to worry about the wider picture and the environment and the wider world will have more importance.

When things aren't going welll, high(er) unemployment, lowering standards of living, stagnant/shrinking economy, then the concerns are with the mundane, how will I get a job, can I afford the rising food costs.

It is, in a way, related to Maslow's heirachy of needs. i.e. There is no point worrying about morality and accepting facts (self-actulisation) when you are concerned with the "baser" needs of shelter and food (safety/physiological).

We've seen similiar things over in the UK, there was a green tax introduced to encourage electricity and gas companies to be more environmentally concerned and consumers to be more efficient. Now, with the increasing fuel costs and the outcry over the "cost of living" these measures have been repealed.

A government knows that it is voted for by its own people, so they must come first and foremost otherwise they will lose their election. Look at sucessive governmental overspending, this is what this problem is. Push it for someone else to deal with. As they say, it is easier to fix the roof when the sun is shining than in the rain.

It is political isolation and it involves putting the short term needs of your population first. Since the banking crash there have been loads of other examples, fo instance, in the USA mno's were incentivised to close down foreign plants in preference to those on home soil. Most 1st world countries have reduced their foreign aid budgets.

All of these moves are rather similiar to the great depression.

So we had the great depression, followed by growing isolationism and the focusing inside one's borders rather than externally. With such conditions nationalists start to gain track as they point out how X amount was spent helping the worlds poor rather than feeding it's own citizens etc. International involvement goes from actions to words as grand alliance members stop supplying armies (see League of Nations). Then came the out break of war...

It is a startling mirror, the only hope is that the economic recovery starts to have an impact on people's daily lives before we are too far down this road.

[Gotthammer]

When things aren't going welll, high(er) unemployment, lowering standards of living, stagnant/shrinking economy, then the concerns are with the mundane, how will I get a job, can I afford the rising food costs.

Thing is though that Australia barely felt the economic effects. Yes there was a slow down and unemployment and costs rose, but nothing remotely like what Europe or the US went through happened at all. Who the hell actually voted for Abbot is a complete mystery to me.

[Wolfshade]

But isn't this similiar to Howard back in the late 90s? Unpopular PM, unpopular budget then come the 98 vote get's re-elected. (Sorry my foreign politics is limited)

We have a similiar situation here we have a coalition government pushing through all these austery "reforms" to cut back spenditure and encourage people into work, and all the Labour opposition would sit back and say "No", without offering any real alternative in terms of policy. Realistically, Labour should be way out in the Polls, but they are not, and they need to turn around, but they have no narrative and unfortunately, the narrative that the coallition is pushing while not popular is seeing postivie returns (now whether that is just a natural market recovery or because of the choices made is another discussion, but certainly is the angle that those in power will push).

I ask similiar questions "Who the hell actually voted for UKIP?", especially recently in local elections. They are a 1 policy party, to remove the UK from the EU, yet they have 0 local policies so how ignorant do you need to be to vote for that party.

[daboarder]

But isn't this similiar to Howard back in the late 90s? Unpopular PM, unpopular budget then come the 98 vote get's re-elected. (Sorry my foreign politics is limited)

We have a similiar situation here we have a coalition government pushing through all these austery "reforms" to cut back spenditure and encourage people into work, and all the Labour opposition would sit back and say "No", without offering any real alternative in terms of policy. Realistically, Labour should be way out in the Polls, but they are not, and they need to turn around, but they have no narrative and unfortunately, the narrative that the coallition is pushing while not popular is seeing postivie returns (now whether that is just a natural market recovery or because of the choices made is another discussion, but certainly is the angle that those in power will push).

I ask similiar questions "Who the hell actually voted for UKIP?", especially recently in local elections. They are a 1 policy party, to remove the UK from the EU, yet they have 0 local policies so how ignorant do you need to be to vote for that party.


most certainly not, not the least because nothing howard ever did was such a systematic attack on everything australians stand for. howards first budget was well recieved, and he was considered tough but fair enough that he even managed to introduce gun control, it wasn't until he introduced the unfair work choices that he lost.

Australians at the end of the day stand for a fair go and against tall poppies.

Furthermore these actions have been ridiculed by the leading economists as ridiculous for a country that was barely touched by the GFC (and we were barely touched). Basically he is introducing austerity measure in an economy that does not need them, and that is very dangerous.

And finally, the point is that he has no mandate for his actions, they will likely be blocked by the senate unless changed, and iff so he will likely get destroyed at an election because he has reneged on everything he promised that does not directly benefit the 1%

as to who voted for abbott? Thats an easy question to answer, labour was an absolute circus, and the electroate punished them for them, only on the proviso that abbott would stand by his election promises.

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRkVyRmx_8U4yN5Zx2KHPvBmmC-9uVADfDQ1_7J2u5ZaHkaVu2R

[Gotthammer]

Not quite - Howard lost support from the far right at times due to his occasional more moderate stances (gun control, sending troops in to East Timor against Indonesia, organising a referendum to decide on becoming a republic despite being a staunch monarchist etc) but also never got much extra support from the left for refusing to apologise to the Aboriginal people, LGBT rights and so on.
Basically he kept his mouth shut and did his job and seemed to actually know what he was doing (even if we didn't always like it) rather than his contemporary opposition who were changing leaders every few months and Abbot who just seems to be a complete moron and appears ruled by his personal politics.

On a party level Labor were in shambles and never quite recovered from ditching Rudd (though he needed to go) and then the Liberals hammered them on the carbon tax and spending issue so people just looked at them scrapping the tax without reading the fine print of "and everything else too" :rolleyes:

[daboarder]

Not quite - Howard lost support from the far right at times due to his occasional more moderate stances (gun control, sending troops in to East Timor against Indonesia, organising a referendum to decide on becoming a republic despite being a staunch monarchist etc) but also never got much extra support from the left for refusing to apologise to the Aboriginal people, LGBT rights and so on.
Basically he kept his mouth shut and did his job and seemed to actually know what he was doing (even if we didn't always like it) rather than his contemporary opposition who were changing leaders every few months and Abbot who just seems to be a complete moron and appears ruled by his personal politics.

On a party level Labor were in shambles and never quite recovered from ditching Rudd (though he needed to go) and then the Liberals hammered them on the carbon tax and spending issue so people just looked at them scrapping the tax without reading the fine print of "and everything else too" :rolleyes:

All this, basically we may not have liked howard, but we could damned well at least respect him (until the end)

http://www.smh.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/john-howard-rebukes-tony-abbott-over-fairness-20140604-39jgi.html

[Mr Mystery]

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRkVyRmx_8U4yN5Zx2KHPvBmmC-9uVADfDQ1_7J2u5ZaHkaVu2R

I see what he did there....specific Govt.....not Government. That's a lot of weasel, even for a politician.

And I have to say, I'm genuinely concerned by the current rise in far right parties in the developed world..... It's all going to go horribly, horribly wrong again isn't it?

[daboarder]

I see what he did there....specific Govt.....not Government. That's a lot of weasel, even for a politician.

And I have to say, I'm genuinely concerned by the current rise in far right parties in the developed world..... It's all going to go horribly, horribly wrong again isn't it?

fall of the middle class. rise of the 1% always leads to turmoil and aggression.
Can I recommend this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_in_the_Twenty-First_Century

[Mr Mystery]

Well, this is all perfectly horrible.

Why is it always 'don't blame me mate, blame that foreigner'??

Let's face it. I'm not effectively shut out the housing market because someone moved to my country. I'm locked out because there's a bunch of greedy sods sat up the top of the pile wanting to keep things in the status quo - Limited supply, driving up the price, whilst they rent, rent, rent to all and sundry, making even more money.

Wouldn't be so bad if it was possible to join them with the ease they got up there, but the post-war generation had it all, took it all, and dragged the ladder up behind them.

Grr!

[Wolfshade]

Because we always do. Someone who is different is obviously a threat, this thought is primeval in origin and why tribes waged war rather than working together.

[Mr Mystery]

But we're so much better educated and informed these days. Yes, even those of us who squander their education.

We know that political extremists are lying through their teeth. We know Politics is essentially a game of obfuscation and misdirection. Yet we lap it up.

Look at 'Britain First'. Vile little party, but with a solid understanding of social media.

Man this sort of stuff brings me down.

[eldargal]

Because we always do. Someone who is different is obviously a threat, this thought is primeval in origin and why tribes waged war rather than working together.

We don't actually know that though, the oldest record of certain human violence dates back 15,000 years and opinion is split whether it is warfare or the murder of trespassers. In some areas of the world evidence of human-human violence appears in the archaeological record only 4 thousand years ago. Violence does seem to be an inherently human trait but we don't know when it became a Thing or how ubiquitous it was.

[Wolfshade]

Given the earth is only 6,000 years old, if reject your pre-earth theory ;)

But more seriously, I do accept that we do not know when it happened, whether it was in response to external pressures on humans (i.e. we can only protect/feed our family/tribe) or internal (i.e. people who believe my ideology have a manifest destiny to x therefore all your base are belong to us). Without documentation we can only guess. I think the best we can hope for is observing the "uncontacted" and see how they operate, but even then they might be too "modern" to decide.

[Wolfshade]

But we're so much better educated and informed these days. Yes, even those of us who squander their education.

We know that political extremists are lying through their teeth. We know Politics is essentially a game of obfuscation and misdirection. Yet we lap it up.

Look at 'Britain First'. Vile little party, but with a solid understanding of social media.

Man this sort of stuff brings me down.

People in large numbers are stupid.

It is the "Dan Brown" narration, you start with a truth, people believe you, you then move onto a half truth, owing to the first people are more likely to belive you, finally, you lie, owing to the previous experiance, you believe them.

But there are people who do not understand this, look at the number of stupid questions people ask (http://www.buzzfeed.com/mrloganrhoades/38-yahoo-questions-that-will-destroy-your-faith-in-humanity)or what they say (http://www.buzzfeed.com/daves4/people-that-will-make-you-feel-like-a-genius)

[daboarder]

I lost it at the unbaking a cake part

[Psychosplodge]

Let's face it. I'm not effectively shut out the housing market because someone moved to my country. I'm locked out because there's a bunch of greedy sods sat up the top of the pile wanting to keep things in the status quo - Limited supply, driving up the price, whilst they rent, rent, rent to all and sundry, making even more money.


But if we have a net gain of 200k a year then that is an unnecessary pressure on the strained housing market.
And if at the same time they're working at the low end of the market then they're possibly in receipt of housing benefit. or if out of work adding to those in receipt of housing benefit.
And the buy to let boom especially in the south is fuelled by filling houses with people on housing benefit at ridiculous rents.
So essentially you're subsidising locking yourself out of the housing market.

[Mr Mystery]

But if we have a net gain of 200k a year then that is an unnecessary pressure on the strained housing market.
And if at the same time they're working at the low end of the market then they're possibly in receipt of housing benefit. or if out of work adding to those in receipt of housing benefit.
And the buy to let boom especially in the south is fuelled by filling houses with people on housing benefit at ridiculous rents.
So essentially you're subsidising locking yourself out of the housing market.

It's that or go homeless. Again. Not much fun that.

[Psychosplodge]

I meant by paying the taxes that pay the benefits that pay the rents for the buy to let landlords, but yeah catch22 for you...

[Mr Mystery]

And all because a smart move to get the wider populace involved in the housing market was marred by the gross stupidity of not replenishing stock with the gained money, despite that such a decision would have spurred the economy on somewhat.

I do wonder what those funds eventually got spent on.

[Psychosplodge]

That certainly contributed to it, combined with Gordon "look at the house prices the economy is fine" Brown...

[Mr Mystery]

Wasn't just Mr Brown. It's been decades of it. All about your house price yadda blah blah.

Not to mention utter, utter idiots who know the housing market is massively inflated, but still buy into the 'own or you're scum' nonsense peddled by the likes of the Daily Fail.

I'm nearly at the point where I could actually get a mortgage on a small one bedroom flat (which is fine, that's all I need), but it's ridiculous that you need a better-than-average-paying job to just achieve that. Utter insanity.

Another thing that annoys? People banging on about their negative equity. Dude. It's only a problem if you try to move house!

[Psychosplodge]

Yep, they were happy paying it before. If they can afford to keep paying it, it's less than renting and they don't want to move whats the problem?

[Mr Mystery]

Because portfolio, probably.

And I doubt we'll see a new tax on landlords. Too many party donors of all stripes are involved in that market for such a thing to fly
:(

Still. Quite interested to see what happens when the post-war generation start dying off. 100% not wishing it on anyone, but it's them that owns it all, and it's gonna get passed to their offspring. Could cause a total market collapse, or could just maintain the status quo.

[Psychosplodge]

it depends on amounts, values and how they're set up. Inheritance tax (which I disagree with) should see some reach the market, or where several family members want their cut, but others not so much.

[Mr Mystery]

True.

Though given the size of mortgages most are lumbered with, I reckon we'll see a bit of a flooding of the market as excess properties are sold off to pay off mortgages for those living far from their parents (take me. I live down South. Mum and Dad own house in the Borders, and Bro's flat. House is getting sold when they snuff it, as I'm not moving up there!), so on and so forth.