Apoc Formations in Regular games: Thoughts?

[The Tisroc]

Hello everybody!
I was discussing this with a good friend of mine today: can/should we use Apocalypse formations in regular games? His position is, "Yes. That is what VIIth Edition is all about. Use everything." My position is, "No. Apocalypse formations are in the Apocalypse book and thus are to be used in Apocalypse games. Don't take this new edition as carte blanche to just start throwing in stuff from Apocalypse."

Where do y'all stand on this? What is it like in your local meta? I look forward to hearing from the community. Cheers.

[Caitsidhe]

Hello everybody!
I was discussing this with a good friend of mine today: can/should we use Apocalypse formations in regular games? His position is, "Yes. That is what VIIth Edition is all about. Use everything." My position is, "No. Apocalypse formations are in the Apocalypse book and thus are to be used in Apocalypse games. Don't take this new edition as carte blanche to just start throwing in stuff from Apocalypse."

Where do y'all stand on this? What is it like in your local meta? I look forward to hearing from the community. Cheers.

Go to the 7th Edition Rule Book under Choosing your Army. There is a section on Formations. Currently 90% of all Formations are found in the Apocalypse book.

[Erik Setzer]

I'm going to go with yes. Especially as the manager of the local GW store is using one himself and says it's fine.

[Mr.Pickelz]

My problem with formations is fitting some of my favorite into games around 1,500 to 2,000 points. A full Green Tide formation comes to around 2,000 points by itself, and that is just one unit... To make it viable would be to remove boyz from it, or lower the Nobz out of it, making it less of a threat. However, a single unit with 100 Orks with a Warboss would cause lots of trouble and make anyone with templates happy as can be.

[Caitsidhe]

Yeah, it is an obvious limitation on Formations that if you can't afford them at the point level, you can't put them in. :D

[daboarder]

Go to the 7th Edition Rule Book under Choosing your Army. There is a section on Formations. Currently 90% of all Formations are found in the Apocalypse book.

apocalypse formations are clearly different to dataslate formations. They have their own additional special rules.

Or are you going to argue that high command rules, psychic choirs and broadsword/rapier tank positioning rules are available to units and armies in regular 40k?

[Caitsidhe]

apocalypse formations are clearly different to dataslate formations. They have their own additional special rules.

Or are you going to argue that high command rules, psychic choirs and broadsword/rapier tank positioning rules are available to units and armies in regular 40k?

Currently I'm going to argue exactly that. Until they specify otherwise, Formations are Formations. Hell, the Lord of Skulls is technically a Formation too, although now superceded by just coming into the game as a Lord of War. :D

[daboarder]

Currently I'm going to argue exactly that. Until they specify otherwise, Formations are Formations. Hell, the Lord of Skulls is technically a Formation too, although now superceded by just coming into the game as a Lord of War. :D

so I can take a imperator titan at 1500 pts? its a formation right?

[Caitsidhe]

so I can take a imperator titan at 1500 pts? its a formation right?

Look, I'm not saying there isn't some humor (and more imbalance here) I'm just saying that they have not excluded any Formations of any kind as of yet. I expect that they will likely go through the Apocalypse Formations and turn the ones they think best into Data Slates and Faq/Errata that it is only the ones you buy. Or they might just leave it as is with everyone fielding a metric ton of everything. Your Titan's D-Weapons and apocalyptic weapons would, in fact, function per regular 40K rules.

Does it all make sense? No. I'm just pointing out that currently a Formation is a Formation is a Formation. They show up in a variety of books and sources and nothing currently says which are acceptable and which are not.

[daboarder]

Look, I'm not saying there isn't some humor (and more imbalance here) I'm just saying that they have not excluded any Formations of any kind as of yet. I expect that they will likely go through the Apocalypse Formations and turn the ones they think best into Data Slates and Faq/Errata that it is only the ones you buy. Or they might just leave it as is with everyone fielding a metric ton of everything. Your Titan's D-Weapons and apocalyptic weapons would, in fact, function per regular 40K rules.

Does it all make sense? No. I'm just pointing out that currently a Formation is a Formation is a Formation. They show up in a variety of books and sources and nothing currently says which are acceptable and which are not.

thats fine, I'm jsut saying that there is still a distinction between an apocalypse game and a regular 40k game, simply because Apocalypse games have their own rules, rules such as formations, strategic cards, scoring, etc Hell I'd even argue that a Apocalypse game should use the apoc D-weapon rules.

But the apoc formations are bust in 40k, very bust. Use them in your narrative games if you want, but dont fool yourself into thinking that the rules allow it the way they allow unbound

[Caitsidhe]

thats fine, I'm jsut saying that there is still a distinction between an apocalypse game and a regular 40k game, simply because Apocalypse games have their own rules, rules such as formations, strategic cards, scoring, etc Hell I'd even argue that a Apocalypse game should use the apoc D-weapon rules.

But the apoc formations are bust in 40k, very bust. Use them in your narrative games if you want, but dont fool yourself into thinking that the rules allow it the way they allow unbound

And yet the Lord of War is in there, Psychic Powers which allow people to toss Vortex Grenades, unlimited summoning, and so on. I'm not disagreeing with you that the fact that some of them are extremely weird for 40K (and probably busted) but that doesn't mean much when the entire game is equally busted. I agree that it is likely when they get around to giving us a Faq/Errata on the basic rule book (hopefully soon) that it should include a clear notation on which Formations are allowed and which are not either by individual entries or entire publications. Currently, there are Games Workshop Story Managers using them and when I wrote Black Library about it they forwarded my question to the rules team. The answer that came back to me was "a formation is a formation." In typical Games Workshop style I'm not even sure they did more than skim my question.

[daboarder]

And yet the Lord of War is in there, Psychic Powers which allow people to toss Vortex Grenades, unlimited summoning, and so on. I'm not disagreeing with you that the fact that some of them are extremely weird for 40K (and probably busted) but that doesn't mean much when the entire game is equally busted. I agree that it is likely when they get around to giving us a Faq/Errata on the basic rule book (hopefully soon) that it should include a clear notation on which Formations are allowed and which are not either by individual entries or entire publications. Currently, there are Games Workshop Story Managers using them and when I wrote Black Library about it they forwarded my question to the rules team. The answer that came back to me was "a formation is a formation." In typical Games Workshop style I'm not even sure they did more than skim my question.

eh, none of those sources are better informed than you or I, and frankly this edition is a cluster frak of stupidity piled upon complex stupidity.

[Caitsidhe]

eh, none of those sources are better informed than you or I, and frankly this edition is a cluster frak of stupidity piled upon complex stupidity.

Yes, yes it is. :D Invisibility alone is ungodly. I played a game yesterday (3K each side) but in truth the only points that really counted were the 1000pts or so I spent on Be'lakor and my Winged Nurgle Daemon Prince w/Black Mace and Psychic Powers, and then one more Winged Nurgle Daemon Prince with the Eye of Night. While my other guys were certainly there, I think the collective damage they inflicted was some small Imperial Flyer, some Hull Points on various vehicles, and moral support. :D

Just about everything I killed was done by my three Daemon Princes and of that most of the damage was done by my Invisible (compliments Be'lakor) Winged Nurgle Daemon Prince w/Black Mace. Had I not had invisibility, they would have done some great damage, but would have gone down to the near endless amounts of firepower spent upon them. My Dark Angels opponent had volume of fire that would take down a Worm on Dune. It didn't matter. So, in the greater context of this cluster-bang we call 7th Edition, I don't think Apocalypse Formations really mean much one way or another. :D

[The Tisroc]

... I'm just saying that there is still a distinction between an apocalypse game and a regular 40k game, simply because Apocalypse games have their own rules, rules such as formations, strategic cards, scoring, etc Hell I'd even argue that a Apocalypse game should use the apoc D-weapon rules. Well said. Apoc is one thing and regular 40K is another. You have to be playing Apoc to use Apoc stuff (unless it's specifically designated for 40k).

[deinol]

You can play how you want as long as your opponent agrees.

Unless you are in a tournament, in which case you've agreed to play how the tournament organizer has decided you should play.

Interestingly enough, a combined arms detachment isn't required to be bound. You can have a single detachment and be a legal army, assuming that makes up enough points. Of course, formations don't get objective secured.

[Erik Setzer]

apocalypse formations are clearly different to dataslate formations. They have their own additional special rules.

Or are you going to argue that high command rules, psychic choirs and broadsword/rapier tank positioning rules are available to units and armies in regular 40k?

Those special rules apply to Apoc games only, just like the Lord of War Escalation rules only apply in Escalation missions now. A High Command doesn't do much for you when there's no Strategic Assets around to use.

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Of course, formations don't get objective secured.

Actually, the Tyranid flying swarm formation gives Objective Secured to Gargoyles units. So you could actually have an Unbound Tyranid army with Objective Secured units (that come back on a 4+ when destroyed).

[Voltigeur]

Why bother trying to restrict apoc formations? This entire edition is about throwing open the floodgates to players to take whatever you want. GW certainly wants us to use everything and the kitchen sink, so why the heck not? It's not like we have to worry about upsetting delicate game balance. If you want to wrap your little brother in tinfoil, call him an Imperator titan, and field him as your 1500pt army, then by all means do just that!

[daboarder]

Those special rules apply to Apoc games only, just like the Lord of War Escalation rules only apply in Escalation missions now. A High Command doesn't do much for you when there's no Strategic Assets around to use.


thats basically my point, the formations core rules require an apocalypse game.

[mathhammer]

depends, The formations in Valedor are labeled as Apoc. only formations (boo hiss),. Other formations are designed for 40k. If you want to bring an Apoc formation to a 40k game then you need the permission of your opponent. A 40k formation you don't.

[Ezaviel]

Except, there is a distinction. As mentioned, in the newer books the Apocalypse Formations are called just that, while regular ones are just called Formations. Even Forge World stuff has the 40k ones specifically marked, and the ones that can be Lords of War listed out in a pdf.

Compare the Dataslate Formations. The 40k ones are called Formations, the Apocalypse ones are specifically named Apocalypse Formations.

In fact, looking at Dataslate: Centurion Siegebreaker Cohort, i see the following:
"If a Formation is referred to as an Apocalypse Formation, it can only be used in games of Warhammer 40,000: Apocalypse."

I feel logic dictates that Apocalypse Formations are still intended for Apocalypse only.

[daboarder]

Except, there is a distinction. As mentioned, in the newer books the Apocalypse Formations are called just that, while regular ones are just called Formations. Even Forge World stuff has the 40k ones specifically marked, and the ones that can be Lords of War listed out in a pdf.

Compare the Dataslate Formations. The 40k ones are called Formations, the Apocalypse ones are specifically named Apocalypse Formations.

In fact, looking at Dataslate: Centurion Siegebreaker Cohort, i see the following:
"If a Formation is referred to as an Apocalypse Formation, it can only be used in games of Warhammer 40,000: Apocalypse."

I feel logic dictates that Apocalypse Formations are still intended for Apocalypse only.

well said and found

[Erik Setzer]

If you want to bring an Apoc formation to a 40k game then you need the permission of your opponent. A 40k formation you don't.

Actually, you sort of do. The rulebook says that you have to agree with your opponent before building an army as to what restrictions might apply. So if they don't want to play against a formation, you're just SOL.

[Xaric]

Ok all I see in this is "where does it say you can use the apoc formations" ok here's my counter argument "where in the rule book does it say we can't use a GW publication formation from the apoc rule book?

You can't say 1 thing then have a double standard unfortunately its one or the other unless proven via FAQ so as it stands All current formations that are stated as a formation are 100% legal and if you can't take that go back to making stupid house rules where knights are not allowed in your 40k games because there a super heavy and leave us to enjoy our games without you farting on them please.

As for me i welcome all the crazy unbalanced stuff because if my foe can do it i can do it too and so far i empoly 3 Knights and my foe has his khorne lord of skulls and we throw in a formation of crazy stuff and it might seem unbalanced to some but it feels really balanced to me that it ends mostly in a draw because we dont bicker over how unbalanced our games are...

[Mathias Butte Kastling]

I had this discution and if you use APOC formations in reglar 40k you have turned 40k into APOC. there are APOC formations which gives you rules that only exists in APOC. Also it´s in the wording. the formations in from the new ork books for example are called formations and all have the same icon, the formation icon. the APOC formations have all different icons are called "armoured spearhead", "High command", "Flyer wings" etc etc so the wording is wrong. APOC formations are NOT formations so they cant be used in regular 40k UNLESS both players agree to use them, which really turns it into an APOC game. Super heavys are called Lord of war and are ok now even if they come from APOC book.

[Mathias Butte Kastling]

so I can take a imperator titan at 1500 pts? its a formation right?

Yes and no. Yes you can take a Titan (super heavy vehicle) in 1500p. Just go unbound. and No its not a formation it´s a Lord of War choice now.

[Xaric]

I had this discution and if you use APOC formations in reglar 40k you have turned 40k into APOC. there are APOC formations which gives you rules that only exists in APOC. Also it´s in the wording. the formations in from the new ork books for example are called formations and all have the same icon, the formation icon. the APOC formations have all different icons are called "armoured spearhead", "High command", "Flyer wings" etc etc so the wording is wrong. APOC formations are NOT formations so they cant be used in regular 40k UNLESS both players agree to use them, which really turns it into an APOC game. Super heavys are called Lord of war and are ok now even if they come from APOC book.

Read page 59 of your apoc warhammer 40k book under the icon "Battle Formation" and keep the icon in mind now look at page 85 the formation i am using whats the icon at the top right of the page its the battle formation icon that is by the rule a formation regaurdless of what book it is in it clearly states it is a battle formation...

[Archon Charybdis]

ok here's my counter argument "where in the rule book does it say we can't use a GW publication formation from the apoc rule book?

That's pretty infantile. Where in the rules does it say I can't smash my opponent's army with a hammer and declare myself All-Time-Winner-Forever? Besides, someone already pointed out on page 2 that the Apoc rulebook itself, (as well as the most recent dataslates) explicitly make a distinction between a Formation and an Apocalypse Formation. Not allowing Apocalypse Formations in a pick-up game is not equivalent to banning Knight Titans, it's following the rules.

[Xaric]

The law states that as vandalism of a person personal property that's where it says that also stop being childish... All I ask is if you are going to say its disallowed but lack the wording in the big rule book to say it is disallowed then you can not justify it not being used as there is no rule stating can not use other publications from GW that provide the formations if that's the case NO ARMYS BEFORE 7TH EDITION are allowed in my game because there all made for 5th or 6th edition in mind see I can play that game too...

[Xaric]

That's pretty infantile. Where in the rules does it say I can't smash my opponent's army with a hammer and declare myself All-Time-Winner-Forever? Besides, someone already pointed out on page 2 that the Apoc rulebook itself, (as well as the most recent dataslates) explicitly make a distinction between a Formation and an Apocalypse Formation. Not allowing Apocalypse Formations in a pick-up game is not equivalent to banning Knight Titans, it's following the rules.

Apocalypse formation? where in the apocalypse book does it say apocalypse formation it clearly states on page 59 Battle formation in the Key

[Archon Charybdis]

The law states that as vandalism of a person personal property

Yes, but it's not against the rules of the game.


All I ask is if you are going to say its disallowed but lack the wording in the big rule book to say it is disallowed then you can not justify it not being used

That's not how a permissive rules set works, which is why I can't smash my opponents army or declare myself automatic winner or write up my own psychic powers. The rules have to give you permission to do something, not an explicit prohibition to NOT do something.

It's irrelevant though, because again, you're talking about using Apocalypse Formations, not simple Formations. The main rulebook gives you rules for using Formations, not Apocalypse Formations. If that weren't enough, as Ezaviel pointed out two months ago, there are in fact a few places that explicitly state Apocalypse Formations are only for use in Apocalypse.


Apocalypse formation? where in the apocalypse book does it say apocalypse formation it clearly states on page 59 Battle formation in the Key

How about in the index on pg.2 "Apocalypse Formations", the section title page on 57 "Apocalypse Formations", and the very next page under Formation types "Apocalypse gives you the chance to field Apocalypse Formations. Every Apocalypse Formation is presented..." and so on throughout the section. Battle Formations are one type of Apocalypse Formation. Even if they weren't, find the rules for using a "Battle Formation" in the main rulebook.

[Mr Mystery]

Or you can just discuss it with your opponent. Because you know, this is an interactive game, and a social one. It's about more than what just you do or do not want to do.

[Archon Charybdis]

Or you can just discuss it with your opponent. Because you know, this is an interactive game, and a social one. It's about more than what just you do or do not want to do.

Yeah, I honestly don't think most Apocalypse Formations would be that bad, you'd just need to take it on a case by case basis. In that regard it's really no different from saying "Eh, I don't feel like facing your wreck-face Unbound List with 4 Baneblades Jerry."

[The Imperial Fist]

eh, none of those sources are better informed than you or I, and frankly this edition is a cluster frak of stupidity piled upon complex stupidity.

I'd think the rules team are better informed than you...

[The Imperial Fist]

A good way of answering the question will be when WHW update the 40k throne of skulls rules pack on the website, it's down at the moment and the latest warriors code was pre 7th. Alternatively you could email the rules team as someone above did, or email the WHW team on [email protected] saying you're going to be a participan in one of their events, and ask for clarification if the formation rule in the book allows you to take formations from the apocalypse book.

Lysander and a vortex grenade sounds good to me. here Knighty knighty.

[Xaric]

I also emailed GW FAQ black library team and they replied the same thing that a formation is a formation guess they are getting this question a lot because it feels like a auto reply so there you have it from the guys them self apoc formations are in for normal 40k games and anyway the formation I intend to use is easily disabled just take out the scout leader and they loose half there special rule so I don't think its broken.

why do people class it as a separate games? do you understand what a expansion is to what a separate game?

If it is so you claim a separate game why do both use the same core rule book and codex army the only different I see is you take additional rules and add them to your current 40k game to expand it for more players and a more lengthy play session or in the case of Huge blasts the same time span as it would take a 2000 points list in a normal game to a apoc game of 20000 points.

[Caitsidhe]

I'm rather of the opinion that a Formation is a Formation as well, but we do need official word in the Faq/Errata. Super Heavies are in... you can take allies with the "comes the apocalypse" limitation. For those of you who haven't guessed yet, the apocalypse is here. Many Formations have benefits which you wouldn't get because they don't apply outside of the Apocalypse approach, but that is irrelevant. The key thing is many Formations from Apocalypse exist to help deal with Super Heavies, so keeping the Formations out while allowing the Super Heavies in would be silly.

[Xaric]

I'm rather of the opinion that a Formation is a Formation as well, but we do need official word in the Faq/Errata. Super Heavies are in... you can take allies with the "comes the apocalypse" limitation. For those of you who haven't guessed yet, the apocalypse is here. Many Formations have benefits which you wouldn't get because they don't apply outside of the Apocalypse approach, but that is irrelevant. The key thing is many Formations from Apocalypse exist to help deal with Super Heavies, so keeping the Formations out while allowing the Super Heavies in would be silly.

here have a cookie :D finaly someone gets the point

[Houghten]

Lysander and a vortex grenade sounds good to me. here Knighty knighty.

Don't you have to spend a Strategic Victory Point to use the Vortex Grenade? How's he going to throw it in a mission that doesn't use Strategic Victory Points?

[Anggul]

I've wanted them in since the original Apocalypse in 4th edition. It was always silly that you could take the correct number of the correct units in a standard FOC, yet they could only do the things clearly possible in their fluff if you were playing Apocalypse.

Dark Olympiad for example is a great way of making a full Wych Cult army more viable. A Vindicator Linebreaker Squadron or a Predator Assassin Squadron are both possible to make in a standard FOC but for some reason can't combine their fire for a situational ability unless you're in Apocalypse. There are many other examples too. Apocalypse formations usually just give you a bonus fluffy rule or two for taking a few of something that have to remain close to each other, or in the case of the Dark Olympiad make an otherwise borderline army much more decent.

I say let them in. A lot of the more over-the-top ones are too expensive for your usual 40k game anyway, it's only the more passive ones that will usually be used and they aren't broken in a 40k game, just cool, fluffy and useful in the same way as any formations. I'll certainly be letting my opponents use them, for example a couple of people in my gaming club who like to use full Wych cult armies.

[The Imperial Fist]

Don't you have to spend a Strategic Victory Point to use the Vortex Grenade? How's he going to throw it in a mission that doesn't use Strategic Victory Points?
Because the one Imperial Fist specific formation (Titanhammer Squads) gives him one without Strategic Points. This is where people are getting worried/upset about these formations i think, as you're taking the formation, but not the expansion rules. So suddenly Lysander has a vortex grenade, but as you're not using the ruleset, there's not actually anything that stops him lobbing it at the superheavy or monstrous creature he can deepstrike on without scattering.

[John Bower]

But what's worse about having said Vortex Grenade than having 7 Vortex missiles to fire off with unlimited range? (Effectively; they can reach anywhere on the board whatever way you look at it).

[Houghten]

Because the one Imperial Fist specific formation (Titanhammer Squads) gives him one without Strategic Points.

You don't have to spend anything to acquire it, no, but the Titanhammer Squad entry specifically says he has the Vortex Grenade Strategic Asset.

The Vortex Grenade Strategic Asset is marked "Strategic Resource." You must spend one Strategic Victory Point to use it, and I don't see anything in the Titanhammer Squad's entry that contradicts this - it just doesn't count towards your allowed total of Straetgic Assets.

[Xaric]

Unfortantly it does state in the big rule book using rules with other publications but most of the time you can only ever get strategic assets at the start of a 40k apoc game so if your playing a normal game you will not be awarded any strategic assets there for you cant use rules that requre a strategic asset.

[The Imperial Fist]

You don't have to spend anything to acquire it, no, but the Titanhammer Squad entry specifically says he has the Vortex Grenade Strategic Asset.

The Vortex Grenade Strategic Asset is marked "Strategic Resource." You must spend one Strategic Victory Point to use it, and I don't see anything in the Titanhammer Squad's entry that contradicts this - it just doesn't count towards your allowed total of Straetgic Assets.

You took one select sentance from the entire paragraph. In apocalypse yes, you do need a svp to use it, however if you are taking a formation from the book, but not using the rule set of the book, some people could argue you don't need the svp to use it. This is the problem with the rules teams current one liner answer, as although it technically gives an answer - yes you may use apocalypse formations in 40k - it doesn't address any of the issues arising from this.

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Unfortantly it does state in the big rule book using rules with other publications but most of the time you can only ever get strategic assets at the start of a 40k apoc game so if your playing a normal game you will not be awarded any strategic assets there for you cant use rules that requre a strategic asset.

Some formations come with assests attached however, this is where the problem with this arises.

[Houghten]

You took one select sentance from the entire paragraph.
It was the part I was replying to.


if you are taking a formation from the book, but not using the rule set of the book, some people could argue you don't need the svp to use it.
Whereas I would argue that if you are taking a formation from the book, but not using the rule set of the book, then if any of the formation's rules or wargear depend on the rule set of the book, they have no effect.

Or perhaps the Lords of the Black Crusade all get to call their Finest Hours in a non-Apocalypse game? Yeaaaaaaaaaah, no.

[Xaric]

Put it this way Unless you can find a rule in the book that clearly states a objection to the rule (with good reason) that no one has provided on here other then wording in a 6th edition book that pre-dates 7th edition book you cant possible demand it false or we could simply start ending every game because someone has a army that you don't collect and you lack the book so they are making up every rule as they go.

True point here the game is agreed on by both members of the game if you both accept that is how the game is played out you will follow it all the way to how you have agreed on don't proclaim what you play as warhammer 40k as the true game. Want to know what the true game of warhammer 40k I can sum it up with 1 word "enjoyment" if you both are not enjoying the game then its not a game but a burden.

This is the soul problem when it comes to competitive side of games people want the upper hand and forget they are playing a game of enjoyment but have shifted that enjoyment and they now find that they enjoy the game if they crush the foe not for sake of winning the game but just to rub it in there face. The lowest of players that do this and I have dub this "the rule guilt guy" lets use a example a newer player who has been playing just around the end of 6th edition vs someone who's played since lets say 4th edition because the 4th edition guy has been playing longer will in some cases question the newer player on how he sees the rules making objections and clarifying that the newer guys cant do that or its disallowed even when its not in the book this is why I dubed it "the rule guilt guy" because he will try and guilt the newer guy that he's doing things incorrect and ruining his game in turn makes the newer guy lower his lock on how he sees rules in a bid just to make the other guy happy then the older guy will have a advantage and the newer guy would not be the wiser I know these people exist because there are some in my gaming group.

[John Bower]

Put it this way Unless you can find a rule in the book that clearly states a objection to the rule (with good reason) that no one has provided on here other then wording in a 6th edition book that pre-dates 7th edition book you cant possible demand it false or we could simply start ending every game because someone has a army that you don't collect and you lack the book so they are making up every rule as they go.

True point here the game is agreed on by both members of the game if you both accept that is how the game is played out you will follow it all the way to how you have agreed on don't proclaim what you play as warhammer 40k as the true game. Want to know what the true game of warhammer 40k I can sum it up with 1 word "enjoyment" if you both are not enjoying the game then its not a game but a burden.

This is the soul problem when it comes to competitive side of games people want the upper hand and forget they are playing a game of enjoyment but have shifted that enjoyment and they now find that they enjoy the game if they crush the foe not for sake of winning the game but just to rub it in there face. The lowest of players that do this and I have dub this "the rule guilt guy" lets use a example a newer player who has been playing just around the end of 6th edition vs someone who's played since lets say 4th edition because the 4th edition guy has been playing longer will in some cases question the newer player on how he sees the rules making objections and clarifying that the newer guys cant do that or its disallowed even when its not in the book this is why I dubed it "the rule guilt guy" because he will try and guilt the newer guy that he's doing things incorrect and ruining his game in turn makes the newer guy lower his lock on how he sees rules in a bid just to make the other guy happy then the older guy will have a advantage and the newer guy would not be the wiser I know these people exist because there are some in my gaming group.

Well put sir. Well put indeed.

[Katharon]

GW has said on numerous occasions that its OK to use formations from the Apoc book in regular games of 40K as long as the basic requirements are met and points allow it. Otherwise, just play the game the way you want. Talk to your fellow gaming buddies in the area. Get their input. See what they think. Come to a majority consensus or agreement about how to approach the topic. Otherwise, just don't worry about it. Trying to justify either position, based on any amount of evidence for or against in the face of already stated allowances for it is just wasteful of time and goes against the current propagation of 'forging the narrative'. Doing things your own way isn't going to make other people, on the internet, want to change.

[Gleipnir]

Rule blurbs that come with Dataslates even after 7th edition indicate that Apocalypse formations are "not" rules legal in standard play formats, however I honestly do not see the Apocalypse formations concept surviving long as everything 7th edition has been pointing towards an effort to add narrative and fun ways to include as many models as possible in an army list as points permit. Many 6th edition Apocalypse formations have received Standard Formation rulesets, and I expect that trend will continue.

That said the rules encourage you to use narrative variations of your own if all parties agree there would be nothing wrong with using Apocalypse formations in such an environment. I honestly expect Apocalypse to eventually become more of a narrative game format with rules for Super-Heavy units, with less focus on Apocalypse exclusive formations going forward.

[Xaric]

At this rate apocalypse in the future will be phased out because the core rule set in the apocalypse book is all that is left that makes the book its own and even about 50% of the rules from that can be found in the 40k 7th edition main rule book but lets be honist its the grim dark far future everything is in a apocalyptic state lol

[Ang56]

general rule in my group is it's allowed, we love apoc, but only play every few months and we've spent a bit of money on having legit formations so we allow them in 40k too. However, any apoc formation or super heavy you need to have your opponents permission while list building in our group, so that he can say no if he's not in the mood, or at least build his list to deal with it.

You can't really just say yes to all apoc formations, it's for sure a case by case basis that you need to discuss with your opponent beforehand. For example the demonette formation, even in apoc that formation is scary, in a 40k game it would be pretty miserable to fight, it is very cheap and powerful, it fits into small games and there's not a lot of good counter available at those point levels. While on the other hand, creed in his bastion is cool and totally fine in a game of regular 40k imo, as long as you don't allow the high command rules that go with it since those rules aren't in the brb.

I guess what I mean is nobody is forcing you to follow the rules when gaming with a group of friends, I think if you are wanting to blindside each other with the more powerful formations, I'm not really a fan of that idea, but if you discuss it before the game and both of you agree on using specific formations, they can make for some very fun and still fair games.