Spore Mines Assaulting

[pelmen78]

Spore mines do not move normally in the movement phase, they randomly wonder around. They cannot shoot or run. In my brief rules lookthrough, I cannot see any reason why they cannot assault. They have a profile right underneath the biovores, although no weapon skill (because they go boom). Thoughts? They've never been able to assault before now, but it's fallacious thinking to say that things will always be the way they were.

I don't have an opinion one way or the other without further research, but I wanted to put it out there.

So, whatcha think?

[Lerra]

Hmm, an interesting idea.

I have a feeling that they aren't intended to assault, considering their WS of 0. Models with a BS of 0 can't shoot, so it would make sense that a model without WS would follow a similar convention.

I don't see any restrictions by RAW, though.

[Ferro]

If this interpretation is right, then they drift-move a random direction, but can charge 6" any direction you choose. They'd pop when you make base contact with an enemy.

Since it wasn't allowed last codex, I naturally feel weird about this. But it is RAW.

[Nabterayl]

Gotta say, I was never a fan of the random drift in the last codex. I can't even count the number of times it seemed like my opponents' spore mines drifted to about 3" away from one of my units, whereupon it was popped like a harmless balloon or its "victims" simply walked away. Speaking as a non-tyranid player, a 6" "I sense you now" move actually feels right to me.

[Lerra]

Do they pop as soon as they are base-to-base, or do the defenders react first?

It's a good thing that they don't survive to attack in CC: the "To Hit" chart in the BRB doesn't include WS0. So by RAW, you need a roll of ??? to hit them, and vice versa. I don't think it's even playable by strict RAW. The game gets a Divide by Zero error, crashes, and the table swallows your minis.

[pgarfunkle]

Units with a weapon skill of zero are automatically hit in close combat by there opponents (BRB p. 7)

[Drakkan Vael]

Models with WS0 would be hit automatically. Its in the BRB.

But the mine does not have an attack value as well so it cannot attack at all. Again BRB.

And the mine explodes if wounded, touching an enemy model or impassable terrain or if ending the movement within 2" of an enemy.

If touching friendly models they are removed from play without exploding.

[Ferro]

Lerra: I lol'd.

DV has it. If they assault, have no CC attack of their own, they are auto hit by the enemy, then auto lose a wound because of T1 and S -. Losing a wound makes them explode immediatly.

Also keep in mind another new twist to spore mines: they arrive on the table in a cluster (in base contact with each other) but the cluster separates in their next movement phase. Each mine rolls its scatter direction independantly.

There is also no explicit clause granting permission to drift into enemy contact, so it seems that they must stay 1" away in the movement phase. --it does mention that they pop when they contact an enemy, but that could be referring only to contact in assault. At least they can home in on enemy models now and assault them.

[Lysis]

I too like the feel of the short range homing of a living mine... but about having no attacks to assault with, you get +1 for the charge - so there ya go

[HsojVvad]

In the other thread in rumours someone said that the Spores (what is the short form for spore mines?) that it says in the rules that they don't run. Is that true? I thought it said they move a random 6" in it's movement phase, but I don't rememeber anyone saying that they cannot run in the shoot phase.

Can someone confirm this? One more day, one more day and I don't have to ask if it's confirmed :D

[HsojVvad]

Ok, after digging some info on other forums, if I am reading correctly what people have said, spores can't run but no where in the codex does it say spores can't assault. If we go by the 4th edtion codex, it specifically states that spore mines cannot assault.

What a few people have said, is no where in the 5th edtion Tyranid codex does it state that Spore mines cannot assault. So since it dosn't state that they can't assault, they can assault when within 6" of an enemy model. Also to note since it has no WS, it can't attack anyone and will automatically loose CC, and once it gets a wound it will explode. Anthour thing to note as someone else said, once it's within 6" of an enemy and assaults, as soon as it touches it in b2b, it explodes. One way or anthour the Spore mine explodes in CC.

The only time this will change if GW writes in the Errata to change this rule. If they FAQ it, it dosn't mean much but an Errata like they did to DA to take Their scoring units away ex Devestor Squads and Elite Scouts will make Spore mines not being able to assault into CC.

[Crevab]

Welp, I lost a Battle Sister to an assaulting Spore Mine tonight.

[Bonham63]

Spore mines move as "living bomb", as long as they are on the table, so they couldn't run, by RAW.

[AbusePuppy]

Spore Mines can't run (and it is implied, although not outright stated, that they cannot move normally during the movement phase).

Interested persons may note that the Spore Mine scatter rules say that "...If the blast marker ends up more than 6" from enemy units... instead place a Spore Mine on the table..."

Hrm. 6". That seems like a rather odd choice of numbers, given that even a large blast would easily have missed the unit by then.

Unless there was a reason that they didn't want the Mines to end up withing 6" of things.

[Ferro]

Agree on the 6" wording, AP. If you were foolish enough to only take one Biovore, and hence there is only one template in your barrage, 6" away makes it pop without hitting anything. Sucky.

We all know Biovores are an all-or-nothing choice, so 0 or all 3. At least when the first mine pops, there's a chance your barrage rolls will scatter onto the enemy.

[HsojVvad]

It would also be fluffy that Spore Mines assault, since they are attracted to heat or what not.

[Drakkan Vael]

Did anyone per chance notice that in order to shoot a spore mine down, you have to dedicate a whole unit PER mine into doing that?
Taking three times three mines means you'll need nine units shooting at nine different targets? (If they don't kill each other in an explosion)
That would take a while and waste a lot of firepower.

[BuFFo]

Spore Mines can assault.

[Drakkan Vael]

Spore Mines can assault.

No, they cannot. (with 0 Attacks it is a bit difficult).
Or can you shoot with bs 0? - no you can not.

[Ferro]

No, they cannot. (with 0 Attacks it is a bit difficult).
Or can you shoot with bs 0? - no you can not.

That is not a rule, DV. There is no WS or A requirement in order to launch an assault. Remember, they do get +1 Attacks for charging, but with WS 0 they cannot hit their opponent (implied, but not explicit in the rules) and their opponent hits them automatically (p37, the Nota Bene under the 'To Hit' chart). Whether they can hit in CC is irrelevant, since they explode when they take a wound--which will happen automatically.

Can they assault--yes. Are they 100% guaranteed to lose the assault--yes. But then they explode.

[pelmen78]

Winning or losing assault is even less relevent since they explode upon contact with the enemy, per Living Bomb. Just to reinforce your point, Ferro.

[Mortifis]

The interesting thing to look at is whether they explode before the enemy unit makes their 6" consolidate move into Close Combat...

Close Combat defenders move after attackers have moved, but the Spore Mines say "explodes immediately" if it touches a model.

So I would imagine that the Spore Mine charges the enemy and explodes before they can react.

[BuFFo]

No, they cannot. (with 0 Attacks it is a bit difficult).
Or can you shoot with bs 0? - no you can not.

Weapon skill has nothing to do with saying "These spores are assaulting your unit"

What it takes to assault is the ability to say "These spores are assaulting your unit" and the ability to burn calories so you can move the figures up to 6" into base contact with said enemy unit with your hands.

[Drakkan Vael]

Weapon skill has nothing to do with saying "These spores are assaulting your unit"

What it takes to assault is the ability to say "These spores are assaulting your unit" and the ability to burn calories so you can move the figures up to 6" into base contact with said enemy unit with your hands.


Having no attacks makes it a bit difficult to attack someone.

Can you shoot with bs 0? - No.
Can you make an armor save without armor? - No.
Do you take LD test without LD? - No.


I don't think that the description always needs explecit wording what it can or can not do. Lacking an attack value should be enough to notice that it can not attack.
As with all rules anyone can handle that as he or she likes.


And kindly stop considering all others that post on BoLS as either dump or inferior to you.

[sebi81]

did the mines have an attack value in the old codex? if they also had 0 attacks, why would it have been necessary to explicitly say, that they can not attack in the old codex. since it isn´t stated in the new codex, there was obviously a change in the rules.
attacks are not required for charging. only for doing harm in cc. you can charge without having attacks, you just can not cause any damage in cc. as long as you are able to move you are able to charge, if not forbidden in a explicit rule.
and the ability to attack near enemies makes perfect sense for the mines. when they are within 6 inches, they feel the enemy and float into him. fluffwise very clever... and it makes them able to be not only a flying way to make the enemy slower, but to be actually dangerous for the enemy.

[Nabterayl]

Having no attacks makes it a bit difficult to attack someone.

Can you shoot with bs 0? - No.
Can you make an armor save without armor? - No.
Do you take LD test without LD? - No.
I don't know about Ld0 models, but we know what BS0 and Sv- mean. It's right there on page 7, which is the same page that tells us that WS0 models are hit automatically in close combat and A0 models are "defenceless." It does not say, and the book does not anywhere else say, that WS0 models cannot engage in close combat, or that A0 models are prevented from charging (or indeed from gaining an Attack from doing so). There are reasons why a player might want to assault with WS0 and A0 models even if they didn't explode on contact.

[gcsmith]

:p the argument about attacks is irrelevent as they explode straight away. I think 6 assulting 1st turn have the chance against a horde u think?

[HsojVvad]

OK for people who say a WS of 0 (zero) can't attack. Please go to the BRB and go to page 7. Under the title Zero-Level Characterstics. Basically it says, a WS O charcteristic is automatically hit, and an Armour Save of (-) has no armour save at all. So it gets a wound automatically. What happens when a Spore Mine gets a wound? I think we know that.

I believe this was said already (unless I am confusing myself from another forum). So yes a Spore Mine can assault, since it dosn't say it can't in the 5th edtion codex. (4th edtion codex they coudln't assault. Carnifex was a single unit in 4th edtion too. But now this is 5th edtion, things change, Carnifex is in broods now or can go in a spore pod, Spore Mines assault now. Things change from codex to codex.)

The spore mine assaults, All models in the units have to move up as close as possible, the spore mine explodes and the unit with remaining models, if any consolidate.

Even if you say the Spore Mine explodes as soon as contact is made, that happens, but at the same time as the Spore Mine is exploding, the other units in CC have to move up as close as possible as well, it's just the spore mine and units moving up are doing it simitanioulsy. It's not I move you move, it's done all at the same time, just as if, it was a Tau vs Ork in CC both units move simitaniously to fight in CC. It's just the Spore Mine is a single unit now, and not in a brood anymore.

[Nabterayl]

I'm not sure I agree about that last bit, HsojVvad. Assault moves are done in sequence - first all attacking models move, and then all defending units move. The sequence doesn't usually matter, but it can - for instance, if I have an Independent Character in my assaulting unit that I want to keep away from an Independent Character in my opponent's defending unit, the sequence of assault moves could, if the positioning was right, allow me to do that - and I would be perfectly within my rights to do so; my opponent couldn't claim that we move simultaneously.

[B_Steele]

Piling into combat, WS and number of attacks are utterly irrelevant; the Living Bomb rule states (in addition to ever being within 2" of an enemy at the end of the Tyranid Movement phase) they will also explode "when coming into contact with an enemy model". This means the spore mine assaults, touches the enemy and instantly pops.

I think it makes Biovores a whole lot more viable. :)

-B

[Fizyx]

Were spore mines listed as infantry in the 4th ed codex? I do not have it on me, but I do have the new codex on me and they are specifically listed as infantry models.

All things considered, it definitely does look nice, but also consider this:

They are instinctive behavior - Lurk with leadership 1. Unless there is a synapse creature nearby they will not be able to assault due to the rules regarding instrinctive behavior.

[gcsmith]

double 1 always pases

[Cryl]

Were spore mines listed as infantry in the 4th ed codex? I do not have it on me, but I do have the new codex on me and they are specifically listed as infantry models.

All things considered, it definitely does look nice, but also consider this:

They are instinctive behavior - Lurk with leadership 1. Unless there is a synapse creature nearby they will not be able to assault due to the rules regarding instrinctive behavior.

That's a very good point that potentially makes a tyranid assault even more dangerous as you could coordinate a biovore shooting phase with synapse to push any scattering spores into enemy forces before the chittering mass of claws tears what's left into small pieces.

On the other hand it does mean that without synapse you're stuck at littering the board with randomly moving bombs that aren't assaulting anything

[Fizyx]

double 1 always pases

Of course, but I would not hedge my bets on a 1/36 chance of success :D

[Mortifis]

Of course, one could always read the Living Bomb rule in question, that actually states they are immune to Instinctive Behaviour :p

And they explode if they end any movement phase within 2" of the enemy, regardless of which player's turn it is.

So, because they detonate on contact as well as proximity, when Spore Mines charge they explode before the defending unit reacts and makes its 6" move. Kinda hard to move up and attack something that's not there anymore :rolleyes:

[HsojVvad]

Were spore mines listed as infantry in the 4th ed codex? I do not have it on me, but I do have the new codex on me and they are specifically listed as infantry models.

All things considered, it definitely does look nice, but also consider this:

They are instinctive behavior - Lurk with leadership 1. Unless there is a synapse creature nearby they will not be able to assault due to the rules regarding instrinctive behavior.

It dosn't say in 4th editon codex if it's infantry or not.

I don't understand what you mean, spore mines don't lurk only the biovore lurks. Once the spore mines are shot out, they don't follow the profile of the biovore. Once they are shot out, they fallow the Living Bomb rules.

[BuFFo]

And kindly stop considering all others that post on BoLS as either dump or inferior to you.

You are trying to state a rule that does not exist. You provide no page reference, you provide no rule to cite. Nothing.

The spore is a model/unit like any other unit/model. It can assault like any other model/unit as far as the Assault/Close Comabt Chapter is concerned. The only difference is that once it assaults, and gets close enough, it just explodes.

You need to actually open up your rules book, go to the page on statistics, and QUOTE me the rule that says a model with a WS of 0 cannot assault another model.

Find it for me. Take the 30 seconds out of your busy schedule please.

[Fizyx]

It dosn't say in 4th editon codex if it's infantry or not.

I don't understand what you mean, spore mines don't lurk only the biovore lurks. Once the spore mines are shot out, they don't follow the profile of the biovore. Once they are shot out, they fallow the Living Bomb rules.

You are correct. I was not reading very carefully, thank you.

Hrmm, I'll have to try this out tonight and see what people think.

[Shallowain]

Yes, by RAW they can charge. And by RAW they can not end their movement close than 1" to the enemy (which is not *that* problematic, as they go off within 2").

Makes it sense? no. can they do it? yes

Oh, and they can't run, its specifically mentioned.

[gcsmith]

movemnt means movement phase, assult isnt movement for that purpose

[sebi81]

the rules explicitly say that spores can´t run, can´t go to ground, don´t behaviour instinctivly and never fall back. it wouldn´t have been a problem to say that they can´t attack also, but it wasn´t stated in the rules. ergo: they can attack as long it isn´t forbidden anywhere else.