1500 Shooting Blood Angels

[ElectricPaladin]

In honor of the counts-as Captain Tycho I'm in the process of making, I decided to put together a shooting-centric Blood Angels list, just to see what it's like. I'm curious to read your input.

HQ
• Captain Tycho

Elites
• 10 Sternguard Veterans, 2 Heavy Flamers, 3 Combi-Meltas
• 3 Sanguinary Priests, 2 on foot w/tactical gear, 1 jump w/assault gear

Troops
• 10 Assault Marines, 2 Meltaguns, Sergeant w/Combat Shield, Plasma Pistol, Power Maul
• 10 Tactical Marines, Flamer & Heavy Bolter

Heavy Support
• Stormraven w/Lascannons & Multi-Meltas

It's odd.. at first, I thought this list was too small. But no, it's got thirty-four 3+ (well, thirty-three 3+ and one 2+ 4++) bodies, and all of them to have 5+ Feel No Pain. At 1500 points, that's actually a pretty decent sized force, and not at all easy to remove. It's only three squads, but all of them have the capacity to divide until two smaller squads.

What is dangerous is that the force will present a small profile: either a single land raider driving up the field with assault marines deep striking and a stormraven in reserve, or a land raider flanked by assault marines, with a storm raven in reserve.

That said, since I've almost always won with my Blood Angels by advancing directly down my opponent's throat, with my entire army in a single tight formation, it's not actually that big a deal, and I can always peel off my assault marines later to grab an objective, speedy as they are.

So, what do you think? I'd have to make some alterations to unpainted models to make this army work, and I'm eager to read your comments...

[Caitsidhe]

I think it is a very solid list for a 1500pt game. It is an assault army and thus suffers the issues all assault armies suffer. I understand you built it as a shooting-centric list, but with Assault Marines and ample short range special weapons (flamers and melta) you really do have to get in close to close the deal. A Stormraven is a good air-to-air killer which should help you with the one Helldrake (if fighting CSM) you are likely to see at 1500pts (perhaps two).

[Katharon]

I would argue against diluting the ranged power of the Sternguard by giving them heavy flamers. Far better to use those points to give them a ton of combi-weapons. That way at least they can choose to fire either their special ammunition or their combi-weapon. Nothing made me laugh more, when the new 6th ed rules first came out for Overwatch, than when a buddy of mine charged my Sternguard and they were armed with 10 combi-flamers. The sheer look of horror was one that I'll never forget.

[vonDietdrich]

Having played a lot of Blood Angels.. I enjoy seeing Captain Tycho quite a bit. He doesn't get enough face time by half.

That said, there's a couple of problems that pop out at me with this list.

From your description of the list, presumably you're running a Land Raider Crusader though I don't see it in there. Those things are awesome, and a Land Raider + Storm Raven is decently durable and will offset some of your troop issues.

However, presenting a slim profile can be both good and very, very bad. A problem I've run into is that a lot of Blood Angels are priced to where you usually only want to take a few max squads (to benefit from Sanguinary Priests and other squad-wide benefits), and those squads tend to be more expensive than their counterparts in other codexes. For Captain Tycho to be used at his best, he's got to be run with a full 10 man squad (so that he can bestow Special Issue Ammo).

In other words, if your opponent only has one or two targets to pick from (especially if some of your troops are tied up in melee), you're going to see large portions of your list get blitzed with every bullet that your opponent has. The downside of Land Raiders and Storm Ravens is that if your opponent has literally any other legal targets, he will fire at them instead (unlike lighter tanks, which will eat up some fire but possibly be destroyed).

What this means in practical considerations for a game is, your army's movements are very powerfully telegraphed, and can be countered by clever positioning. It won't be hard to see what you're doing and hem in your movements.

The minute your troops disembark, they will get blasted. Your opponent will focus all of his guns on solely your troops, and Blood Angels (even with Tycho + Sternguard) are not a shooting army. They can't lay down the sheer weight of fire required to go toe to toe with dedicated shooting armies. Even Storm Shield terminators with a Sanguinary Priest terminator have a rough time weathering multiple turns of dedicated shooting: regular power armor will melt like ice cream on a summer day, even with FNP.

The other issue is, while yes, you can theoretically squad all of your troops.. that means you've only got two ways to ferry them up the field. In my experience, against any competent opponent, a Marine that's on foot might as well be dead if he doesn't have more enticing things to shoot at. Which returns me to the problem with heavily armored transports not drawing aggro.

Your Meta May Vary, of course. If you think this sort of list will be effective in your LGS, go for it. It'll be fun, which is the point. But it has several glaring tactical and strategic flaws that can be defeated in the list-building phase, and one of the frustrating things about Blood Angels is that it sucks to start off on the back foot because of differences in army construction between you and your opponent. So long as you're aware of these things and don't get blind-sided when you actually play the army.. I don't see why not. But you will be fighting an uphill battle each game. Good luck. :)

[ElectricPaladin]

Some of the list above is in consideration of the models I have. I've actually taken it one step further in obedience to the models I have, and the first few times I play the list I'll be using it with a combi melta on the sternguard sergeant only and a combi-plasma on the tactical sergeant. I'll hit eBay at some point and get a few extra marines that I can bash up into the alternate models I need for a naked tactical sergeant and two more sternguard with combi-meltas.

As far as the heavy flamers go... I dunno. I kinda like 'em. Combi-weapons only do their trick once, and I really like heavy flamers. But I'll play around and see if the list is stronger without them.

Re: vonDietdrich...

Yeah, it's a crusader. The only land raider I bother to own!

Firstly one of your concerns is no a problem: combat squadded units can now share a ride in the same transport! So there's nothing stopping me from dividing my sternguard in two and having them ride up the field together, then split up upon arrival, or having half of the squad jump out along the way to claim an objective while the rest of the squad continues.

The rest of your post, I think I understand. To restate your point: the Blood Angels have a problem with their stuff being too expensive, because their codex is ancient, and because this list includes two enormous and expensive vehicles as well as over-priced Blood Angels stuff, it intensifies this problem. It's true - if I were building this list with Codex: Space Marines, I could probably fit in a whole other vehicle, like a vanilla predator or something, to drive up alongside the land raider and draw aggro.

But, like you said, that's just part of the uphill battle we face playing Blood Angels...

Thanks for the reminder, though. I will definitely keep it in mind, and report back when I see how the list fares in real play!

[Wolfshade]

You know, I've not used Tycho since 2nd ed.

I like this list, might tinker down a 1,000pt version (my usual level) and have fun with that.

[ElectricPaladin]

You know, I've not used Tycho since 2nd ed.

I like this list, might tinker down a 1,000pt version (my usual level) and have fun with that.

Personally, if I were doing it at 1k, I'd take out the stormraven and tacs and replace them with sniper scouts. Maybe you'd have to bring the sternguard down to five men, and put them in the stormraven instead and take out the crusader instead... I dunno.

Let me know how it goes!

[Wolfshade]

I was thinking dropping the Raven and a priest. Replacing the Tacs with Sniper Scouts sounds like a plan though.

[ElectricPaladin]

I was thinking dropping the Raven and a priest. Replacing the Tacs with Sniper Scouts sounds like a plan though.

In my experience, you don't need a flyer at 1k, which means that if you are the guy who can fit one into a list without gimping yourself, you're golden. Also, sniper scouts with camo cloaks are quite good, if used properly.

- - - Updated - - -

Re: the recommendation that I drop the heavy flamers...

I have placed the eBay order for two more combi-meltas. All I need now is a third priest! Back to eBay!

This is the list I'll rock when I try it out without the heavy flamers:

HQ
• Captain Tycho

Elites
• 10 Sternguard, 2 Combi-Meltas, Sergeant w/Combi Melta & Meltabombs
° Dedicated Land Raider Crusader w/Multi-Melta
• 3 Sanguinary Priests, 1 Jump w/Assault Gear, 2 Foot w/Tactical Gear

Troops
• 10 Assault Marines, 2 Meltaguns, Sergeant w/Combat Shield, Plasma Pistol, Power Maul
• 10 Tactical Marines, Flamer & Heavy Bolter, Sergeant w/Combi-Plasma

Heavy Support
• Stormraven w/Lascannons & Multi-Meltas

I actually like this version a lot better, even more so than just tons of combi-meltas. Giving the sternguard access to reliable melta every turn, in addition to a three-melta blitz if I feel like I need it, makes me feel pretty comfortable, as it mitigates one of the main problems with combi-weapons (ie. what happens if all whiff?). Additionally, it gives me at least a chance of popping a transport so the sternguard inside can unleash their weapons on the dudes inside.

I see the flaws in this list. If the Blood Angels get any cheap anti-air, I'd drop the stormraven in a heartbeat and put the tacs in a rhino. This list needs fewer big nasties and more stuff. As it stands now, though, I'm eager to try it out.

[Gwhizz84]

Have you considered going unbound and just spamming sternguard in drop pods for instance? Admittedly I haven't played with my B.angels for the longest time, but I can just see your troops melting under heldrake spam, or any ap3 badness, kinda destroying the point of having them in the first place you know? Also, unless you're really really interesting in being fluffy, why not just field them using C:SM rather than blood angels? No special rules in their codex actually benefits a shooty army, and as assault is gimped.. :\

[ElectricPaladin]

Have you considered going unbound and just spamming sternguard in drop pods for instance?

I might try it someday, but at the moment I don't have enough Sternguard or drop pods...


Admittedly I haven't played with my B.angels for the longest time, but I can just see your troops melting under heldrake spam, or any ap3 badness, kinda destroying the point of having them in the first place you know? Also, unless you're really really interesting in being fluffy, why not just field them using C:SM rather than blood angels? No special rules in their codex actually benefits a shooty army, and as assault is gimped.. :\

Well, the entire point of this army is to play around with a counts-as Captain Tycho, because that special character comes with a few interesting special rules. If I wanted to play Codex Marines, I'd have hung on to my Exorcists, or actually gotten around to stripping them and turning them into Sons of Medusa.

[ElectricPaladin]

Additionally, it's actually really hard to make a Codex: Space Marines army with Codex: Blood Angels models. The differences are subtle, but just enough that it's a pain in the butt. For example - what's the most popular special weapon for Blood Angels assault squads? Meltaguns! What are your options in Codex: Space Marines? Plasma pistols and flamers! And there are a lot of good choices for Codex: Space Marines - like grav-guns and centurions - that will never be usable in my Blood Angels, even when a new codex comes out.

So... not a great investment.

[Gwhizz84]

Mm I guess, 'twas just a suggestion :) as I said I've never played a game in 6th or 7th, don't think I played many in 5th for that matter, but it just seems you're not really playing to the armies strengths by going for a shooty army. I don't know how your local group feels about allies for things like centurion's/TFC's? It just seems a waste to try and fit an assault based army into a shooty configuration, especially as you've gone for a very short range set up.. for like the first 1 or 2 turns all you'll have is a LRR and stormraven trundling up the table and every single anti tank weapon in their army is gonna be shooting the hell out of you :/ If you're against allies I'd atleast get some devastators in, perhaps with lascannons/ML's.. I don't have the latest e-codex so I'm not sure if they can get flakk missiles, but just having something on the board that can reliably destroy heavy armour from above 12" is always a good idea

[ElectricPaladin]

Also, to clear up a common misconception about the Blood Angels...

The Blood Angels aren't actually an "assault army." Above all, they're still Space Marines. You can't win - certainly not now, in some ways not ever - with the Blood Angels if your only strategy is "advance, then get into combat." It's not how the codex actually plays.

What Blood Angels are is Space Marines. They have the basic Space Marine traits - 4s in most important stats, 3+ armor saves, high Leadership, the And They Shall Know No Fear USR, and boltguns as the basic weapon. The question then is, what do you add to this basic templates? Where other chapters add more shooting options (ie. Codex: Space Marines adds thunderfire cannons, grav weapons, centurions, and the like) a focus on bikes and terminators (Codex: Dark Angels) or, er, whatever the hell it is Space Wolves do (I still don't understand that codex), Codex: Blood Angels adds...

• A dedicated (and terrifying) close combat unit (the death company).
• Another decent close combat unit with jump packs (sanguinary guard)
• A new kind of dreadnought that has more and better attacks (furioso dreadnought).
• A tank built for close quarters shooting (Baal predators).
• Easier and more plentiful access to Independent Characters (chaplains as Elites and sanguinary priests) that make units more durable and better in close combat.
• Assault marines who are scoring and can take melta weapons.
• Pistols that duplicate some of the rules of melta and flame weapons.
• All rhino-based vehicles are fast; land raiders can Deep Strike

If you put this all together, I don't think that you get an assault army. This isn't Orks, where everything has BS 2 or 3, but you can easily field a huge horde of models and a ton of tanks with assault ramps. This isn't Daemons where almost nothing has a shooting attack, but you can field Troops choices with a power weapon on every model. This is Space Marines plus being better at charging into combat. This is Space Marines who like to move a little faster, cut it a little closer, but a little more in the thick of things, and have (or at least are supposed to - the codex is in a pretty sad state) the durability and ferocity to make it stick even in such conditions.

As Caitsidhe said, this is an assault army. It's just not an assault combat army. It's an assault close quarters shooting army, with decent combat capability as a trick it can pull out of its back pocket, if need be.

[Gwhizz84]

Maybe these days, but I always played them as 'get into combat as quickly and overpoweringly as you can'.. this was admittedly back when rhino rushing actually worked mind you, but still.. You're really gonna suffer against anything with long range firepower, as the Land Raider is likely to be the only tank on the board first 1-2 turns, its gonna attract every single high str weapon like a magnet, if it gets destroyed you're looking at walking your sternguard up into range to do anything veeeerry slowly.. even with FNP they're not gonna last long after that, even with assault marines and the stormraven as distractions. Once the sternguard are gone you have.. 12" melta guns, and a stormraven to kill any armour, or maybe enough anti-personnel firepower to kill 1 squad a turn max. I'm not sure what match ups your facing but Tau, eldar, AM, chaos, dark eldar are all gonna rip through your marines before you can even blink imo, especially if you're thinking of unloading your 'tacs 12" away from something to destroy it. You just can't the resulting low ap return fire with the amount of bodies in that list. As it's nearly 2am for me I cba grabbing my codex out to make a 'better' list but something like Tycho, 6 sternguard in a drop pod with 3 combi meltas, 5 sniper scouts, 10 man tac with combi plasma, plasma and lascannon, 6 man tac with combi melta, melta and razorback with lascannon, 10 devastators, maybe a vindicator and a stormtalon would be more workable, with a ADL/quad gun for more AA. Target saturation means atleast something will survive enough to do dmg, the sternguard should pop a vehicle when they arrive, before they die, the vindicator should attract a ****load of fire but if it survives to get upfield it's a reliable killer of MEQ, and while they're shooting that you're destroying the biggest threats with your own firepower.