Helldrakes: A Philosophical Analysis

[Caitsidhe]

As most of us are aware, about the only decent model in the Chaos Space Marine book was the Helldrake. It was good, too good for many and brought on endless complaints. Most of us CSM Players had to grit our teeth. It didn't make any difference to other people that the rest of our book was garbage. We were demonized for using the one bone they threw us. Even so, most CSM players kept Helldrake use within reason. I, myself, usually only put one on the table and at tournaments I might plop down two. Now we gaze upon 7th Edition and the Faqs have already curtailed the chief complaint against our dragons. They no longer have a 360 fire arc. The rejoicing can begin. The word has spread far and wide that the Helldrakes are neutered. You hear it most often from non-CSM players and now and then from a few guys angry when anything they use gets a change. I have listed a few of the important limiting changes below:

1. As mentioned above, they now only have a forward firing arc.
2. All fliers have a chance of being blown out of the sky by a grounding test of sorts of which failure means instant death.

Of course most people fail to discuss some of the beneficial changes as well.

1. Nobody gets to complain anymore. What everyone CLAIMED was wrong with the Helldrake has been fixed per their request. So use them, as many as you like.
2. Anti-Tank weaponry took a hit with the new chart. While you can still be hulled, the Helldrake sports an AR-12 in most places and is thus fairly solid.
3. Helldrakes benefit from the new Jink in the air or hovering. If you are really afraid of being destroyed, you have as good a cover save as anyone generally.
4. Helldrakes score by dropping into Hover now. They are really good at getting to objectives and liquidating anything there that might have contested them.
5. Helldrakes are AWESOME in hover.

Let me put #5 in perspective. The Helldrake compares favorably to most Skimmers in the game in that it has a solid armor rating, is not open-topped, has a nifty Invulnerable save, can use the Jink like everyone else if you need more, and can vector strike very effectively. It has the Torrent Weapon in the air or on the ground. As a Skimmer this means it can move 12" Torrent out the Template another 12" and still hit targets beyond that. The Dark Eldar and Eldar would kill for a Skimmer that had that gun.

There are new things to play with of course. If you add psychic powers to the mix (which I have done to test) a hovering Helldrake benefits from being Shrouded if you cast it. On the off chance they do need to Jink, why not give them the ability to do so at a ridiculous level? An invisible Helldrake is quite durable while hovering around (I have done this to both a Helldrake and a Defiler now... both to hilarious effect). I'm not going to linger on Psychic powers too long because they are an add on. It just bears mentioning that there are options if you are afraid to hover.

My point is that you shouldn't be any more worried about hovering than those people who use Skimmers all the time. You are better off than most of them and if they can do it, so can you. The scuttlebutt is that the reduced firing arc has neutered the dragon. I'll be happy to go along with that notion if it helps people sleep at night. So far, my own play testing, has not led me to that conclusion. It became apparent to me that the 360 degree firing arc was nice if I wanted to be lazy, but it was never required to hit the targets I needed to hit. So far, on the off chance I have not been able to stay in the air and barbecue people, I've just dropped out of it to turn as I like.

[The Tisroc]

I am one of those players that think the Helldrake went from being overpowered and undercosted to being a completely reasonable model. In VIIth Edition it does only one vector strike against a ground target (not multiple) and can no longer barbeque everyone behind it after having flown over it. Also, the teardrop template now originates from the head and needs to be aimed in the front arc. I now like the Helldrake instead of hate it and look forward to seeing you field more than one of them going forward.

I always appreciated that you limited yourself to only one of these things per game during our VIth Edition games. I thought that was quite sporting of you, John. You shan't hear me complain about the Helldrake in VIIth.

Cheers.

PS Only decent unit? I think not! Plague Marines and Oblits have always been as hard as nails. The Defiler rocks, as does the Black Mace Nurgle Demon Prince. I'm a Tyranid player and you can cry me a river about your codex being underpowered! :P

[Caitsidhe]

PS Only decent unit? I think not! Plague Marines and Devestators have always been as hard as nails. The Soul Grinder rocks, as does the Black Mace Nurgle Demon Prince. I'm a Tyranid player and you can cry me a river about your codex being underpowered! :P

Plague Marines got weaker in 6th Edition with their Feel No Pain dropping to a 5+ (without any reduction in cost). They remain good but they were not anything new. The Defiler got priced pretty much off the table. Obliterators already existed too. I grant it was nice that they gave us the Assault Cannon back and the ability to get a Toughness-5, but these things do not a Codex make. I love my Black Mace Nurgle Daemon Prince, but I will point out that the Daemon Prince was better overall in 5th Edition too. It got weaker and FAR MORE EXPENSIVE. :D

The vast majority of entries in the CSM Codex don't see the table because they are just awful... awful. :D

[Voltigeur]

I only ran one drake during 6th. It was crazy good to an extent that it was silly how much damage it could do. I think that now it's as powerful as it should be considering the point cost. Though it is a shame that the rest of the codex is rather lackluster.

[marful]

The vast majority of entries in the CSM Codex don't see the table because they are just awful... awful.Such as:
Mutilators (maximum suck)
Non Crimson Slaughter Possessed (maximum suck)
Helbrutes (lol)
Khorne Beserkers (retarded)
Thousand Sons (overcosted)
Chosen (sooo overcosted)
Warp Talons (lel)

[daboarder]

Such as:
Mutilators (maximum suck)
Non Crimson Slaughter Possessed (maximum suck)
Helbrutes (lol)
Khorne Beserkers (retarded)
Thousand Sons (overcosted)
Chosen (sooo overcosted)
Warp Talons (lel)
Basic csm's....

[Caitsidhe]

Basic csm's....

On very rare occasion I've used them. They pretty much are marginal.

[daboarder]

I dont think the FAQ destroyed heldrakes, BUT it was unnecessarily harsh in my opinion. Pre-the old FAQ the two camps were actually 360 and 180, no one suggested 45. (or at least no one who didnt just hate the concept and think that CSM were OP) its just too restrictive and most importantly makes no sense at all. This thing is a mechanical dragon and its rules are intended to make it somewhere between a vehicle and a MC and a 45 hull mount just does not reflect that

[Kristopholes]

I agree with you completely Caitsidhe. In 6th edition I thought the 360 degrees was a little ridiculous and to be "sportsmanlike" i reduced it to 180 degrees on the reg so my fellow players wouldn't cry so much. I field two Heldrakes on the reg and in 7th edition they haven't really lost any effectiveness that I've seen. Boohoo I only get one hit on ground targets but now its AP 2? Awesome. Say goodbye to your flyers. I haven't even been using that many psychic powers yet and they're still tough in hover.

[Caitsidhe]

I dont think the FAQ destroyed heldrakes, BUT it was unnecessarily harsh in my opinion. Pre-the old FAQ the two camps were actually 360 and 180, no one suggested 45. (or at least no one who didnt just hate the concept and think that CSM were OP) its just too restrictive and most importantly makes no sense at all. This thing is a mechanical dragon and its rules are intended to make it somewhere between a vehicle and a MC and a 45 hull mount just does not reflect that

Well it really depends on how they clarify further. The Helldrake uses a template (as we all know) which means the bottom end of the template must entirely be within the dragon's forward arc. The part extending outwards (which cannot angle back toward the dragon) doesn't have to be within that arc. This affords the dragon a nice forward arc. I am not extrapolating here as this is how all people have been using their templates for years. It may be clarified further, but for now the dragons aren't too bad for shooting forward, simulating a 180 degrees pretty well.

[daboarder]

Well it really depends on how they clarify further. The Helldrake uses a template (as we all know) which means the bottom end of the template must entirely be within the dragon's forward arc. The part extending outwards (which cannot angle back toward the dragon) doesn't have to be within that arc. This affords the dragon a nice forward arc. I am not extrapolating here as this is how all people have been using their templates for years. It may be clarified further, but for now the dragons aren't too bad for shooting forward, simulating a 180 degrees pretty well.
Just a note, the template CAN bend back towards the dragon, it just cannot be closer to the dragon than the thin end. due to trigonometry you have a fairly wide range of play

as I said, I dont think they are destroyed, but I do think it was to harsh

[Caitsidhe]

Just a note, the template CAN bend back towards the dragon, it just cannot be closer to the dragon than the thin end. due to trigonometry you have a fairly wide range of play

as I said, I dont think they are destroyed, but I do think it was to harsh

Perhaps but in the end it was worth it to me because now I can field all my Drakes without getting crap for it. That gives me a net gain overall so I don't sweat the reduction.

[marful]

Basic csm's....
You know, I honest to god forgot about them because who the f*** takes basic CSM's?

I'm still a bit upset at the nerf to Vector Strike. The combination of 90º forward arc on the only weapon it has + Vector Strike nerf has me going WTF?

A Vendetta has 3 twin linked lascannons, 2 Heavy Bolters, deep strikes, carries 12 troops, has scout, has the same armor and you can get 3 of them for a single fast attack choice, all for LESS COST THAN A HELDRAKE (prior to Codex: Astra Militarum Codex, now they are same price...), and people *****ed about 3 heldrakes? Really?

[Blood Shadow]

2. All fliers have a chance of being blown out of the sky by a grounding test of sorts of which failure means instant death.


I have no idea what you mean by this, Heldrakes don't take grounding tests???

[daboarder]

I have no idea what you mean by this, Heldrakes don't take grounding tests???

I think he is referring to the fact that immobilized results can cause fliers to crash

[Mr Mystery]

There's also the trade off of being able to Hover and Flame, and potentially needing to use Jink more often.

A Hovering Heldrake is much more vulnerable than a flying one. That's just basic. Your opponent need only look a wee bit saucy with firepower, and suddenly the Heldrake isn't all that scary (least not as scary as the intertubes would have us believe).

Like pretty much every other unit in the game, if ignored by the enemy, and left to do what it does, it's a game winner. Why people would ever consciously allow that to happen, I don't know :)

[Caitsidhe]

I think he is referring to the fact that immobilized results can cause fliers to crash

Yes, this is what I was referring to. Calling it a grounding test is just in reference to the fact it is the same roll the FMC make (albeit with harsher results upon a failure).

[Kristopholes]

Well it really depends on how they clarify further. The Helldrake uses a template (as we all know) which means the bottom end of the template must entirely be within the dragon's forward arc. The part extending outwards (which cannot angle back toward the dragon) doesn't have to be within that arc. This affords the dragon a nice forward arc. I am not extrapolating here as this is how all people have been using their templates for years. It may be clarified further, but for now the dragons aren't too bad for shooting forward, simulating a 180 degrees pretty well.

Unfortunately I don't have the rule book with me right now so I'd like to clarify something with torrent. You say that the heldrake still maintains a rough 180 degrees field of fire. Are you saying the template could basically be taken from the mouth of the heldrake, moved 90 degrees and 12 inches to its left because the template originated in the heldrake's actual field of fire? I just can't look up torrent right now so I don't know if its really off the weapon or off the field of fire of the weapon.

[Charon]

Field of Fire. Would be the same with blast markers. Target has to be in the field of fire, blastradius can go out of this zone.

[Caitsidhe]

There's also the trade off of being able to Hover and Flame, and potentially needing to use Jink more often.

Potentially, but not as much as you would think. Depending upon the weapons that are fired at it, the Helldrake will likely just opt for the Invulnerable save. Even more often than not, a Helldrake dropping into Hover can position itself behind ruins without interfering with its primary weapon which ignores cover. Thus, the Helldrake pulls a 4+ save while acting as a Skimmer without having to bother with a Jink. I have found this is the case at least 75% of the time (particularly on boards with decent terrain). The minimum 4+ save for Ruins is a big help.


A Hovering Heldrake is much more vulnerable than a flying one. That's just basic. Your opponent need only look a wee bit saucy with firepower, and suddenly the Heldrake isn't all that scary (least not as scary as the intertubes would have us believe).

It is easier to hit, of course, although I'm not sure given the way the META has shifted it is a whole lot more vulnerable. The proliferation of AA (and of the anti-tank variety) has been significant enough that I get hit in the air often enough that I am relying on my Invulnerable save to keep the Helldrake aloft. Utilizing existing cover for the 4+, against some armies, would actually be an improvement of my odds. The Helldrake has NEVER been as broken or scary as announced by the frantic masses, but it remains every ounce as effective a killer as before. The simple fact is that the Helldrake was never any more effective against non-Space Marines than any other flamer that ignores cover and their AR. The endless whining came from Space Marine players who suddenly found themselves without their 3+ save and whom where entirely unused to that position.

[Mr Mystery]

Indeedy. As with most stuff that's hard, a lot of that potency is all in the mind. If you buy in that Unit X is shockingly hard, youll treat it as such, regardless of how potent it actually is.

Not universal of course. Invisibility and a 2+ invulnerable re-rolled is every bit as pain in the arse as we're told!

[Chris Copeland]

I don't think the flame template can bend back towards the dragon. The target has to be in the arc. That's the whole point of a firing arc, isn't it?

[Caitsidhe]

I don't think the flame template can bend back towards the dragon. The target has to be in the arc. That's the whole point of a firing arc, isn't it?

Not at all. The arc indicates my LOS and as long as the point of impact of the template is within the LOS (the narrow end) the rest can go outside of it. It is still bound by the rules of the template per Torrent though, so it cannot go backwards. Flamers have worked this way with all vehicles since forever and a day. What happens is it narrows the prospective field because the LOS is a more narrow corridor the closer you are to the vehicle. For example, at the point where the fire comes from the dragon's mouth the arc is at its most narrow so you have to put the narrow end in basically one spot. It can swing in basically a 180 arc however hitting about 6" (whatever length the template is) 90 to the left or right. You can't take advantage of the Torrent rule that close because the narrow end would not be inside the LOS. Does that make sense?

However, if you were casting your fire 12" forward per the Torrent rules where your LOS corridor gets much wider you in turn can hit a wider field. Oddly enough, Games Workshop's mechanics simulate real life in this one case. Hard to believe but true.

[Chris Copeland]

I think the target needs to be in the LOS. See "arc of sight" in the vehicle section.

[Caitsidhe]

I think the target needs to be in the LOS. See "arc of sight" in the vehicle section.

You would be incorrect, at least as the RAW. I caveat that in earlier posts staying unless they clarify it more. Templates (of any stripe) are not required to be entirely within the LOS. Only the initial target or point of impact is required. This is why a Blast Templates can hit people outside the LOS but must have a target that is within the LOS. Baal Predators, Land Raiders and every other flamer projecting weapon (particularly Hellhounds) have been doing it this way forever. I grant that they may Faq it (I have already asked them to do so in fact) but given this is Games Workshop that probably won't happen until 8th Edition appears NEXT YEAR. :D

[Chris Copeland]

So at least part of where the template is aimed needs to be in the arc. That works. The ultimate range ends up going a little out of the arc but the arc still can't bend back towards the dragon.

[This Dave]

You know, I honest to god forgot about them because who the f*** takes basic CSM's?

I'm still a bit upset at the nerf to Vector Strike. The combination of 90º forward arc on the only weapon it has + Vector Strike nerf has me going WTF?

A Vendetta has 3 twin linked lascannons, 2 Heavy Bolters, deep strikes, carries 12 troops, has scout, has the same armor and you can get 3 of them for a single fast attack choice, all for LESS COST THAN A HELDRAKE (prior to Codex: Astra Militarum Codex, now they are same price...), and people *****ed about 3 heldrakes? Really?

Vendettas now only carry 6 troops and can't Deep Strike. I don't think it has Scout anymore either. And you're right they used to be stupid underpriced.

The difference with the Helldrake is that while a Vendetta could kill 3 or so models a turn the Helldrake could easily wipe out a whole squad with no cover and almost no armor saves possible. While they still have this weapon with a 360 degree Torrent it was easy to hit anything on the board while Flying. Combined with its good armor this made it a pain to fight against.

Now I don't mind them as much. They're still dangerous but at least now their effective kill zone is limited while they're Flying. And if they go into Hover they're shootable.

[Caitsidhe]

So at least part of where the template is aimed needs to be in the arc. That works. The ultimate range ends up going a little out of the arc but the arc still can't bend back towards the dragon.

Exactly.

[Yayula]

You might be able to put the template away from the arc of vision, however remember that you cant allocate wounds on models you cant see. The only exception being blast weapons, so you cannot really hurt anything away from the original 45* the heldrake have.

[TheRealJC]

Everyone complains about their codex. At 100 points a Hellbrute is a totally viable choice now considering the new vehicle damage chart. Thousand Sons have a 3+ normal and 4+ invulnerable with an AP3 bolter, not over priced and I run them regularly as bullwark troops, have always been extremely effective. Just last night my Defiler killed more than double his own point cost, and that is not a rare thing with him. Chosen are over priced, I take Draznitch to give them preferred enemy and keep them in the back to deal with Deep Strikers, once again this works out more often than not. There is a lot more to the CSM codex than just a Helldrake (I of course run one of those too, im not stupid). Everyone complains, but each codex has some great options. I have also lost to Tyranid armies more often than anyone else, so I am tired of hearing Nids players complain too. If you cant make your army list work, that is your problem.

[Caitsidhe]

You might be able to put the template away from the arc of vision, however remember that you cant allocate wounds on models you cant see. The only exception being blast weapons, so you cannot really hurt anything away from the original 45* the heldrake have.

This isn't correct. *Or perhaps it is correct. I am reading more closely and the part of shooting that states :

Out of Sight
If none of the firing models can draw a line of sight to a particular model in the
target unit, then Wounds cannot be allocated to it, and must instead be allocated to
the nearest visible model in the target unit. If there are no visible models in the target
unit, all remaining Wounds in the pool are lost.

Based on that section above you are quite correct and have my apologies. Use of the Helldrake will require one to make sure to simply maintain the right angle and distance to get a very wide field.

[Caitsidhe]

Interestingly enough, the rules allow me to place the template as I have stated and thus I can get a maximum number of models under it to roll for wounds (a perk). I simply am likely to lose some of them when the number of models in the weapon's actual LOS are all gone.

[John Bower]

I too am in the school that the Heldrake is more sensible now. It's still (like all vehicles) a pain to destroy but at least it doesn't whack everything on the table now so easily, and that is a good thing.

[daboarder]

Cant wait till they nerf marker lights and riptides. those are so OP

:rolleyes:

honestly the drake has never been desrving of half the vitriol it gets.

[Caitsidhe]

I wish I'd gotten some warning that my post was going on the front page. :D I might have done a few edits and additions. :D

[The Tisroc]

I wish I'd gotten some warning that my post was going on the front page. :D I might have done a few edits and additions. :D
Congrats, bro!

[Caitsidhe]

Congrats, bro!

Yes... I get to join the ranks of sitting and ex-Presidents... burned in effigy. :D Judging by the comments, several of them don't understand the points I was making at all. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Ultimately, I don't care if they get it or not. I know how it works and it is working quite well for me. They can't say I didn't warn them.

[The Tisroc]

I just think it's cool that you got listed as doing a "guest editorial."

[MrBo]

Cant wait till they nerf marker lights and riptides. those are so OP

:rolleyes:

honestly the drake has never been desrving of half the vitriol it gets.
It's the Ap3 and sm can't wrap their head around that,It's really as simple as that.Do orcs or eldar complain? No, because they are already used to losing handfuls at a time.

[Caitsidhe]

It's the Ap3 and sm can't wrap their head around that,It's really as simple as that.Do orcs or eldar complain? No, because they are already used to losing handfuls at a time.

EXACTLY this. Only Space Marines cared. This is because the Heavy Flamers that Space Marines used already ignored cover and the armor of Tau, Elder, Dark Elder, Imperial Guard, and so on. Basically Space Marines suddenly found themselves in the same boat as everyone else against a single unit and had a fit.

[The Tisroc]

EXACTLY this. Only Space Marines cared. This is because the Heavy Flamers that Space Marines used already ignored cover and the armor of Tau, Elder, Dark Elder, Imperial Guard, and so on.

No. I cared because my Bugs (who never get any real saves anyway) died in too big of a kill area. That thing deleted units anywhere near it because of the turret/torrent combo. I find it much more reasonable now...

[daboarder]

No. I cared because my Bugs (who never get any real saves anyway) died in too big of a kill area. That thing deleted units anywhere near it because of the turret/torrent combo. I find it much more reasonable now...

Honestly if your a nid player complaining about template weapons? then you need more bugs

- - - Updated - - -


Yes... I get to join the ranks of sitting and ex-Presidents... burned in effigy. :D Judging by the comments, several of them don't understand the points I was making at all. You can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink. Ultimately, I don't care if they get it or not. I know how it works and it is working quite well for me. They can't say I didn't warn them.

If there is one thing I've learnt over the last few weeks with tutorials of mine going up on the facebook page, its dont listen to the vitriol spewing crowd that is too cowardly to back up their thoughts in the forum.

They have nothing constructive to say therefore they dont join the forums because the mods wont put up with their filth.

[The Tisroc]

I agree that the non-forum types are WAY more negative than the actual forum dwellers... cheers...

[Caitsidhe]

I agree that the non-forum types are WAY more negative than the actual forum dwellers... cheers...

I don't mind the vitriol. After having my writing cannibalized in workshop after workshop, I'm largely immune to pain in critiques. I'm more annoyed by the fact that some of them lack reading comprehension skills and seem to draw the opposite meaning from the article than I intended. It makes me wonder how badly I wrote it in the first place.

[daboarder]

I don't mind the vitriol. After having my writing cannibalized in workshop after workshop, I'm largely immune to pain in critiques. I'm more annoyed by the fact that some of them lack reading comprehension skills and seem to draw the opposite meaning from the article than I intended. It makes me wonder how badly I wrote it in the first place.
thats because the are assuming....and also stupid

and most of them only read the title and already have their opinion

Heres my favourite comment of the facebook page


belonged in daemon book never fitted chaos marine

How good is that ^

[Caitsidhe]

thats because the are assuming....and also stupid

and most of them only read the title and already have their opinion

Heres my favourite comment of the facebook page



How good is that ^

Pretty funny. I haven't even been over to the facebook page. I guess I'll go look.

[MajorWesJanson]

Heres my favourite comment of the facebook page



How good is that ^

I have to agree with that, honestly. The Helldrake would have been better as a full on Tzeentch Fire Lord. CSM could have used a more conventional flier, similar to the Hell Talon or Hellblade.

[daboarder]

I have to agree with that, honestly. The Helldrake would have been better as a full on Tzeentch Fire Lord. CSM could have used a more conventional flier, similar to the Hell Talon or Hellblade.

why? daemon engines as a fusion of machine and deamon are far more our things than theirs. Daemones are more archaic techknowology mostly

[Orkimedes1000]

I agree that the non-forum types are WAY more negative than the actual forum dwellers... cheers...

wouldn't disagree, but don't agree entirely either. some forum dwellers are just as bad......we all know who they are.

personally haven'y got an opinion of the helldrake beside it is a cool unit, that i'll likely scratchbuild/convert sometime in unknown future.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

This isn't correct. *Or perhaps it is correct. I am reading more closely and the part of shooting that states :

Out of Sight
If none of the firing models can draw a line of sight to a particular model in the
target unit, then Wounds cannot be allocated to it, and must instead be allocated to
the nearest visible model in the target unit. If there are no visible models in the target
unit, all remaining Wounds in the pool are lost.

Based on that section above you are quite correct and have my apologies. Use of the Helldrake will require one to make sure to simply maintain the right angle and distance to get a very wide field.

Now i can understand the idea for this thread and why you felt The Drake was not all that worse off. The idea that a template could be pointed out side of the Fire arc as long as it starts in the arc (a 180* arc sweep), is wrong. Add that to a 360* fire arc ... /shiver.

My understanding is that the entire Center line of the tear drop Template must be within the 45* arc. That gives you about a 55* total threat area, even if you can only allocate wounds to those within the 45*. As i said in the other thread this is a Significant reduction in the over all power of the unit. To compound this, the Drake has weak rear Armour, making the direction of attack even more complicated. This means you cant do a fly by and spit out the side of your mouth at a target unit, you have to do a more traditional attack vector like most other flyers, and go directly at the ground unit. This will make the drakes moments more predictable and thus simpler to counter. Before the rule change it was near impossible to guess the direction a Drake was going to take because it could fly over a unit and shoot out of its @$$ or hip. To make matters even worse it can only pivot at the start of the movement phase, while zooming.

I think the change to hull mounted fire arc might encourage more drake to have the Auto-cannon. One could only hope.

[Caitsidhe]

Now i can understand the idea for this thread and why you felt The Drake was not all that worse off. The idea that a template could be pointed out side of the Fire arc as long as it starts in the arc (a 180* arc sweep), is wrong. Add that to a 360* fire arc ... /shiver.

I still don't think it is that bad off even with this cleared up. The field of fire gets wider and wider the further the target is away from you. The Torrent nature of the attack makes it pretty easy to get your target within your LOS. My actual contention is that we never needed the 360 degree arc of fire. It just encouraged lazy flight patterns.


My understanding is that the entire Center line of the tear drop Template must be within the 45* arc. That gives you about a 55* total threat area, even if you can only allocate wounds to those within the 45*. As i said in the other thread this is a Significant reduction in the over all power of the unit.

I simply don't agree. It is a significant reduction in the margin of error the player has in controlling the Helldrake. The actual power of the Helldrake hasn't gone down one bit. If anything it has been liberated by the fact that the minimum you are going to see is two of them now and probably 2-6 depending upon the size game being played. I suppose it comes down to perspective. I don't care about a small margin of error because I know what I'm doing. What I care about are tactical options, and the Helldrake provides those. It remains a highly efficient air-to-ground killer which vaporizes people in Power Armor. In general, killing single unit of Marines often pays its point cost back. In general I tend to get 2-3x my points back with a Helldrake simply because Space Marine players still don't know how to cope with AP-3 Flamers. It is my assertion that it is the weapon that is the power of the Helldrake, not that it is a flier.


To compound this, the Drake has weak rear Armour, making the direction of attack even more complicated. This means you cant do a fly by and spit out the side of your mouth at a target unit, you have to do a more traditional attack vector like most other flyers, and go directly at the ground unit. This will make the drakes moments more predictable and thus simpler to counter. Before the rule change it was near impossible to guess the direction a Drake was going to take because it could fly over a unit and shoot out of its @$$ or hip. To make matters even worse it can only pivot at the start of the movement phase, while zooming.

Or, as I suggested in the article, if you find that you can't do maximum killing high in the air, you drop into hover and turn on your targets and roast them. This provides you with the flexibility to turn on a dime, utilize cover (and thus not even have to worry about Jinks). A game is 5-7 turns long. A Helldrake is an air-to-ground killer whose ONLY purpose is to mop up infantry (although you can sometimes use it to kill other fliers). Every round you are not using the Baleflamer to vaporize a unit is a waste of the Helldrake. What purpose is there in flying patterns that try to keep it alive if said patterns also muzzle the gun? What I suggest in the article is that dropping into Hover isn't the end of the world. It is a tactical option. Protecting one's aft from shooting isn't all that difficult. It is even easier when you drop into Hover and can turn whatever direction you like.


I think the change to hull mounted fire arc might encourage more drake to have the Auto-cannon. One could only hope.

You will hope in vain. Why would anyone mount such a weapon on the Helldrake? The power of the Helldrake is the Baleflamer and whether it is in the sky or barnstorming the ground, it exists to set the world on fire. All you are going to see is a lot MORE Helldrakes.

[Charon]

I think the change to hull mounted fire arc might encourage more drake to have the Auto-cannon. One could only hope.

Why should anyone do this?
Same restrictions, same points, bad BF

[marful]

A Helldrake is an air-to-ground killer whose ONLY purpose is to mop up infantry (although you can sometimes use it to kill other fliers). Every round you are not using the Baleflamer to vaporize a unit is a waste of the Helldrake. What purpose is there in flying patterns that try to keep it alive if said patterns also muzzle the gun? What I suggest in the article is that dropping into Hover isn't the end of the world. It is a tactical option. Protecting one's aft from shooting isn't all that difficult. It is even easier when you drop into Hover and can turn whatever direction you like.
The problem I have with Hover mode is that the only weapon it has, only has a 20" range max (12" from torrent +8" template) where you realistically want to be within 12"-14" of your target. 14" separation means you better be prepared to be assaulted the following turn.

So while having your Heldrake enter Hover Mode does give you tactical options, it also means you better be prepared to piece trade. And at 170 a piece for a unit that is best at killing other infantry units, that's not a good points tradeoff (particularly with every army being able to summon daemons...).



You will hope in vain. Why would anyone mount such a weapon on the Helldrake? The power of the Helldrake is the Baleflamer and whether it is in the sky or barnstorming the ground, it exists to set the world on fire. All you are going to see is a lot MORE Helldrakes.I couldn't agree more with this.

The only way I think you'll see Heldrakes be even close to effective anymore: en mass. While a single Heldrake going into Hover is just so much dog meat, 3 Heldrakes is quite a bit different. Being able to put enough Bale Flame templates down to keep anything from assaulting it. But now you are looking at spending 510 points to perform a single role...

I really don't know why Vector Strike was nerfed so heavily. It really hits Daemons and Tyranids hard.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

I still don't think it is that bad off even with this cleared up. The field of fire gets wider and wider the further the target is away from you. The Torrent nature of the attack makes it pretty easy to get your target within your LOS. My actual contention is that we never needed the 360 degree arc of fire. It just encouraged lazy flight patterns.

Any unit you can get away with lazy play, and it is still good, is broken to me. The need for it might be as you say but it was there and now its not. To me that makes a big difference. Like every unit, if you have a lot of experience with them you can get more out of them then a less skilled player. Most players i will ever face will most likely be average. I hope they struggle with their new limitations. The 360* fire arc is as good as it gets and the 45* as bad.




I simply don't agree. It is a significant reduction in the margin of error the player has in controlling the Helldrake. The actual power of the Helldrake hasn't gone down one bit. If anything it has been liberated by the fact that the minimum you are going to see is two of them now and probably 2-6 depending upon the size game being played. I suppose it comes down to perspective. I don't care about a small margin of error because I know what I'm doing. What I care about are tactical options, and the Helldrake provides those. It remains a highly efficient air-to-ground killer which vaporizes people in Power Armor. In general, killing single unit of Marines often pays its point cost back. In general I tend to get 2-3x my points back with a Helldrake simply because Space Marine players still don't know how to cope with AP-3 Flamers. It is my assertion that it is the weapon that is the power of the Helldrake, not that it is a flier.

I hope you are right about this, really. The idea of many people giving GW more money is great. I want them to dig as deep in your pockets as they can. I like the game and want to see it be profitable. And i personally wont mind seeing more Drakes on the table. I also play a flyer heavy list and a turkey shoot sounds like a party to me. Ill take my 4 flyers (2 Talons,1 Raven, 1 Eagle), against 3+ Drakes any day of the week. I agree that the Drake is a deadly Air to ground unit, just a bit less so now. That you don't see that its main weapon, that gives it most of its power, is now less given its reduced fire arc, is something we will just not see eye to eye.




Or, as I suggested in the article, if you find that you can't do maximum killing high in the air, you drop into hover and turn on your targets and roast them. This provides you with the flexibility to turn on a dime, utilize cover (and thus not even have to worry about Jinks). A game is 5-7 turns long. A Helldrake is an air-to-ground killer whose ONLY purpose is to mop up infantry (although you can sometimes use it to kill other fliers). Every round you are not using the Baleflamer to vaporize a unit is a waste of the Helldrake. What purpose is there in flying patterns that try to keep it alive if said patterns also muzzle the gun? What I suggest in the article is that dropping into Hover isn't the end of the world. It is a tactical option. Protecting one's aft from shooting isn't all that difficult. It is even easier when you drop into Hover and can turn whatever direction you like.

Again i agree with you to a point. Going to hover mode to increase the power of its weapon is valid. Though it is a option that is not without risk. For one you take a huge movement distance penalty, and therefore have a reduced threat range. Also you will become easy to hit even if you are able to get better cover. I also agree that protecting your flank is not all that hard. I just think its a bit harder, now that you can't just fly by and flame to the side. I am pleased that the Drake now has to consider this problem at all. This only means there is more decisions that can be gotten wrong. I am not trying to say that the Drake is now a weak unit. It still has its teeth, well most of them. Now it has to make the same choices that my flyers do. Seems fair to me.

[Caitsidhe]

Any unit you can get away with lazy play, and it is still good, is broken to me. The need for it might be as you say but it was there and now its not. To me that makes a big difference. Like every unit, if you have a lot of experience with them you can get more out of them then a less skilled player. Most players i will ever face will most likely be average. I hope they struggle with their new limitations. The 360* fire arc is as good as it gets and the 45* as bad.

I agree which is one of the reasons I was thrilled with the change. I like people to have to think about how they will use a unit rather than push and play. I wouldn't get too used to the 45 degree arc. I suspect that was a classic Games Workshop over-correction. I have my money on it going back to 180 degrees within six months, probably right about the time they note a flag in Helldrake sales.


I hope you are right about this, really. The idea of many people giving GW more money is great. I want them to dig as deep in your pockets as they can. I like the game and want to see it be profitable. And i personally wont mind seeing more Drakes on the table. I also play a flyer heavy list and a turkey shoot sounds like a party to me. Ill take my 4 flyers (2 Talons,1 Raven, 1 Eagle), against 3+ Drakes any day of the week. I agree that the Drake is a deadly Air to ground unit, just a bit less so now. That you don't see that its main weapon, that gives it most of its power, is now less given its reduced fire arc, is something we will just not see eye to eye.

Well, I'm not sure about this. I believe a lot more Helldrakes already sold than have been used. The shaming of CSM players over them kept a lot of dragons off the table. What I suspect is more people will simply be willing to use what they have. I think more people will convert their own models than will buy them. There is also a glut of Helldrakes available from all sorts of sources. Whether or not GW makes a profit on the liberation of the Helldrake remains to be seen.


Again i agree with you to a point. Going to hover mode to increase the power of its weapon is valid. Though it is not without risk. For one you take a huge movement distance penalty, and therefore have a reduced threat range. Also you will become easy to hit even if you are able to get better cover. I also agree that protecting your flank is not all that hard. I just think its a bit harder, now that you can't just fly by and flame to the side. I am pleased that the Drake now has to consider this problem at all. This only means there is more decisions that can be gotten wrong. I am not trying to say that the Drake is now a weak unit. It still has its teeth, well most of them. Now it has to make the same choices that my flyers do. Seems fair to me.

There are always trade offs, but in application by the time you consider dropping a Helldrake into Hover, most of the value of being in the air has been exhausted. I should state up front that I play a very aggressive game. I believe in priority threat saturation making it difficult for my opponents to decide which of my units to shoot at. I also prefer highly mobile armies that I can stack a flank with and roll up an opponent in detail. I like highly mobile threats which can change direction quickly if I need them to do so.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

I thought the first post was a really smart and fair summary, and I also hope people will feel more willing to use them. I didn't like the way people ganged up on the 'Drake (I think you're right in that the reason is that it killed Space Marines so well); anything which stops people feeling they can take their cool model isn't okay in my book.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

I simply don't agree. It is a significant reduction in the margin of error the player has in controlling the Helldrake. The actual power of the Helldrake hasn't gone down one bit. If anything it has been liberated by the fact that the minimum you are going to see is two of them now and probably 2-6 depending upon the size game being played. I suppose it comes down to perspective. I don't care about a small margin of error because I know what I'm doing. What I care about are tactical options, and the Helldrake provides those. It remains a highly efficient air-to-ground killer which vaporizes people in Power Armor. In general, killing single unit of Marines often pays its point cost back. In general I tend to get 2-3x my points back with a Helldrake simply because Space Marine players still don't know how to cope with AP-3 Flamers. It is my assertion that it is the weapon that is the power of the Helldrake, not that it is a flier.


You have not touched upon the change to Vectorstrike. This change has reduced the overall power of the unit, even if you don't agree about the fire arc of the Maw mounted weapon.

[Caitsidhe]

You have not touched upon the change to Vectorstrike. This change has reduced the overall power of the unit, even if you don't agree about the fire arc of the Maw mounted weapon.

I don't really go into it because the vector strike was just icing on the cake. It was nice but still wasn't the primary function. Most of the destruction the unit applies comes from Template.

[Lord Lorne Walkier]

I don't really go into it because the vector strike was just icing on the cake. It was nice but still wasn't the primary function. Most of the destruction the unit applies comes from Template.

Leaving out 1 of the 2 weapons on a combat unit, in a "Philosophical Analysis", is a mistake. The primary function of the Drake is as you said, Air to Ground killer. The vector strike contributed to this to such a degree that all of the CSM players i chatted with, was sure to include it in their list of gripes about the new Drake. A good portion of the Horror stories involving the Drake, talked about the combination of the vector strike and Flamer, and what it could do to a unit. Something like "The Drake flew over my Rhino full of Marines, blowing it up with the vector strike. Then it used the Bale flamer to fart the now vulnerable unit, to death." This one two punch is now a non factor. These same CSM players i talked with seemed to have no motivation to include MORE drakes in their lists, and in fact were trying to find a way to keep the few they had in their fighting forces. This might be a local thing and might not translate to the whole of 40k. The more I dig into this the more it seems like a Whitewash. Only time will tell.

[Caitsidhe]

Leaving out 1 of the 2 weapons on a combat unit, in a "Philosophical Analysis", is a mistake. The primary function of the Drake is as you said, Air to Ground killer. The vector strike contributed to this to such a degree that all of the CSM players i chatted with, was sure to include it in their list of gripes about the new Drake. A good portion of the Horror stories involving the Drake, talked about the combination of the vector strike and Flamer, and what it could do to a unit. Something like "The Drake flew over my Rhino full of Marines, blowing it up with the vector strike. Then it used the Bale flamer to fart the now vulnerable unit, to death." This one two punch is now a non factor. These same CSM players i talked with seemed to have no motivation to include MORE drakes in their lists, and in fact were trying to find a way to keep the few they had in their fighting forces. This might be a local thing and might not translate to the whole of 40k. The more I dig into this the more it seems like a Whitewash. Only time will tell.

I submit that those players aren't thinking it through then. If the number of their Vector Strikes has decreases, then they need to put in more Helldrakes to achieve the same can cracking effect. They also get more Torrents which is always nice. I have found, even though I only get the one hit, that I tend to have near the same odds since the weapon is AP-2. Helldrakes were never "aces" at cracking cans in any event. A (7) versus (11) which is what they normally went up against, was a four to glance and a five to penetrate. This means they would only get a roll on that chart one in three hits. The math simply does not follow. People who were counting on the Helldrake to break open its own can to kill troops were relying on a Hail Mary. I know I never relied on such nonsense. I used other things to crack the cans and just fired with the Helldrake after I had done so. I used the Vector Strike on Vindicare Assassins in cover, on Daemons and Daemon Princes, and many other things besides. Is the reduction in the number of Vector Strikes against land targets a nerf? Sure, but it isn't a particularly potent one given the normal EFFECTIVE use of a Helldrake. The AP-2 they tossed us back softened the blow.

[daboarder]

I submit that those players aren't thinking it through then. If the number of their Vector Strikes has decreases, then they need to put in more Helldrakes to achieve the same can cracking effect. They also get more Torrents which is always nice. I have found, even though I only get the one hit, that I tend to have near the same odds since the weapon is AP-2. Helldrakes were never "aces" at cracking cans in any event. A (7) versus (11) which is what they normally went up against, was a four to glance and a five to penetrate. This means they would only get a roll on that chart one in three hits. The math simply does not follow. People who were counting on the Helldrake to break open its own can to kill troops were relying on a Hail Mary. I know I never relied on such nonsense. I used other things to crack the cans and just fired with the Helldrake after I had done so. I used the Vector Strike on Vindicare Assassins in cover, on Daemons and Daemon Princes, and many other things besides. Is the reduction in the number of Vector Strikes against land targets a nerf? Sure, but it isn't a particularly potent one given the normal EFFECTIVE use of a Helldrake. The AP-2 they tossed us back softened the blow.

no now you want less heldrakes. And honestly I wouldnt take any (competitively, I LOVE my pair of drakes and always will run them until GW over reacts again and makes them Ap4 to please the brats) if other units in the codex could match it. but nothing in out codex is very good and the drake was basically floating the whole thing. Now it doesn't. Furthermore with the rise of unbound and come the apocalypse allies, and wide access to maelific powers (with the same skill as CSM sorcerers:rolleyes:) the question is fast becoming, why bother? I mean what is CSMs stick? it sorta used to be the loyalist marine killers....but now.....there is almost nothing unique in our book worth taking anymore.

[Caitsidhe]

no now you want less heldrakes. And honestly I wouldnt take any (competitively, I LOVE my pair of drakes and always will run them until GW over reacts again and makes them Ap4 to please the brats) if other units in the codex could match it. but nothing in out codex is very good and the drake was basically floating the whole thing. Now it doesn't. Furthermore with the rise of unbound and come the apocalypse allies, and wide access to maelific powers (with the same skill as CSM sorcerers:rolleyes:) the question is fast becoming, why bother? I mean what is CSMs stick? it sorta used to be the loyalist marine killers....but now.....there is almost nothing unique in our book worth taking anymore.

Well, quite honestly nothing is unique anymore. Everyone has access to everything at all times. Eh. Games Workshop has striven very hard, for a long time, to kill their goose that laid the golden egg. They have more or less done it. They have jumped the shark. When anyone can use anything and pretty much in anyway, there really is no place else to go. The truth is we will be seeing an obscene number of cheese combinations in the future and you are quite correct that the Helldrake's primary purpose of killing Power Armor might very well be obsolete. Who knows how much Power Armor we are even going to see.

[marful]

I have found, even though I only get the one hit, that I tend to have near the same odds since the weapon is AP-2. Helldrakes were never "aces" at cracking cans in any event. A (7) versus (11) which is what they normally went up against, was a four to glance and a five to penetrate. This means they would only get a roll on that chart one in three hits. The math simply does not follow. People who were counting on the Helldrake to break open its own can to kill troops were relying on a Hail Mary.
Sure, popping the transports in 1 hit was a lucky shot, but the fact still remains Vector Strike was the primary way for them to put glancing hits on transports.

And you talk about tactics and smart planning and then completely dismiss the Vector Strike ability to crack open transports? Sounds like you are biasing your position. You do know that you can glance a vehicle down to 1 HP from sources OTHER than the Heldrake? (Gasp!) So that the Heldrake can Vector Strike it and toast the contents?

Some times you don't pop that vehicle in shooting like you really need to. Having the Heldrake able to come in and clean up was very useful. Now it's a total crap shoot to even clean up that last single hull point. Where as before it was a crap shoot to pop it.


So again I posit, why exactly would you take a Heldrake with a single weapon over a Vendetta Gunship? Or even better, a Vulture Gunship with Punisher Cannon? Both of which are cheaper?

The Heldrake now is like a glorified landspeeder. Sure it's tougher, but then its like 3-4 times the cost. And against anything but marines, Str 5, AP 4 is just as good.

[Caitsidhe]

S And you talk about tactics and smart planning and then completely dismiss the Vector Strike ability to crack open transports? Sounds like you are biasing your position. You do know that you can glance a vehicle down to 1 HP from sources OTHER than the Heldrake? (Gasp!) So that the Heldrake can Vector Strike it and toast the contents?

I dismiss it because it requires a lucky shot or the vehicle to have been injured by something else. I crack cans with things designed to crack cans. I don't like relying on luck. I consider that the opposite of planning. The Helldrakes come in on Turn-2 which usually gives me the 1st Turn and 2nd Turn to crack the cans (firing the Baleflamer last on the 2nd Turn) to get people out where I want them. I believe in living La'Vida Melta.


Some times you don't pop that vehicle in shooting like you really need to. Having the Heldrake able to come in and clean up was very useful. Now it's a total crap shoot to even clean up that last single hull point. Where as before it was a crap shoot to pop it.

Sure. If I don't have something better to Vector Strike, I'd hit the vehicle. I'm just saying that the way I plan that was rarely the case. There are almost always better things to Vector Strike that give you a better return. That is why the change in the Vector Strike rules just don't mean that much to me. To me the Helldrake is a highly mobile Baleflamer.



So again I posit, why exactly would you take a Heldrake with a single weapon over a Vendetta Gunship? Or even better, a Vulture Gunship with Punisher Cannon? Both of which are cheaper?

The Heldrake now is like a glorified landspeeder. Sure it's tougher, but then its like 3-4 times the cost. And against anything but marines, Str 5, AP 4 is just as good.

Because I consider the Baleflamer more efficient than the Vendetta or Vulture at killing ground troops.

[marful]

I dismiss it because it requires a lucky shot or the vehicle to have been injured by something else. I crack cans with things designed to crack cans. I don't like relying on luck. I consider that the opposite of planning. The Helldrakes come in on Turn-2 which usually gives me the 1st Turn and 2nd Turn to crack the cans (firing the Baleflamer last on the 2nd Turn) to get people out where I want them. I believe in living La'Vida Melta.
Please explain to me the unit/weapon that has a guaranteed 100% chance of popping a vehicle and doesn't rely on chance to do this.

I'll wait.

[Caitsidhe]

Please explain to me the unit/weapon that has a guaranteed 100% chance of popping a vehicle and doesn't rely on chance to do this.

I'll wait.

Nothing is certain but Melta-Guns generally do the job. As some of my opponents who are online here can tell you, my armies are always replete with Melta-Guns. My Plague Marine units have two Melta Guns and the Champion tends to have a Combi-Melta. When I run Chosen they generally have five Melta-Guns in the Squad with a possible Combi-Melta on the Champion. I always have Obliterators and some always start on the board first thing. They pack Twin-Linked Melta-Guns as well as Multi-Meltas. While nothing is certain, Melta-Spam has a pretty darn good shot of blowing most vehicles open. That is their job. You get the cans open and the Helldrakes kill what comes out.

Nothing in a game that relies on dice is a "sure thing" but I prefer to play the odds. Judging by your tone, you simply want to argue with me. That is fine. I can do that as long as you can. I prefer to use the right tools for the job. The right tool has the greatest chance of success. Melta-Guns crack cans. Helldrakes kill troops. Wasting Melta-Guns on Infantry is (to me at least) about as silly as wasting Helldrakes efforts on vehicles.

[marful]

Nothing is certain but Melta-Guns generally do the job. As some of my opponents who are online here can tell you, my armies are always replete with Melta-Guns. My Plague Marine units have two Melta Guns and the Champion tends to have a Combi-Melta. When I run Chosen they generally have five Melta-Guns in the Squad with a possible Combi-Melta on the Champion. I always have Obliterators and some always start on the board first thing. They pack Twin-Linked Melta-Guns as well as Multi-Meltas. While nothing is certain, Melta-Spam has a pretty darn good shot of blowing most vehicles open. That is their job. You get the cans open and the Helldrakes kill what comes out.
Chosen with 5+ Meltaguns, Champion with Comi-Melta and a Slaan Marks so I can take the Icon of Excess is pretty much my go-to anti-armor unit as well. It's just a bit too pricey to spam. They are also almost always the first models I have that die. Though I don't have any Obliterators (I probably should get some).

I've had games where a single squad of chosen popped a vehicle every turn. However stuff like that only happens once against an opponent before they realize that you can't have that many meltas walking around. Which is the point I've been trying to make that you've been completely disregarding.


Nothing in a game that relies on dice is a "sure thing" but I prefer to play the odds. Judging by your tone, you simply want to argue with me. That is fine. I can do that as long as you can. I prefer to use the right tools for the job. The right tool has the greatest chance of success. Melta-Guns crack cans. Helldrakes kill troops. Wasting Melta-Guns on Infantry is (to me at least) about as silly as wasting Helldrakes efforts on vehicles.The reason why I'm "arguing" with you is because my experience has been completely different than the way you are portraying it. Things aren't so cut and dry and simple as you seem to be trying to present.

Is the Heldrake the best Anti-Armor tool in the box? Heck no. It's mediocre at best; barely able to. Strength 7 AP2 is crap for anti-armor, but it is pretty amazing for hunting transports when it always hits side armor, ignores cover and did D3+1 Auto Hits. Other than my Chosen with 5+ meltas, my Heldrake has always been one of the best vehicle destroying units I've had.

The point I keep trying to make is that the Heldrake can't even do this anymore. All it can do now is anti-infantry.

[Caitsidhe]

Chosen with 5+ Meltaguns, Champion with Comi-Melta and a Slaan Marks so I can take the Icon of Excess is pretty much my go-to anti-armor unit as well. It's just a bit too pricey to spam. They are also almost always the first models I have that die. Though I don't have any Obliterators (I probably should get some).

I cannot recommend them enough. Oblits with the Mark of Nurgle make bank. They are another cornerstone of my lists. Whether they are cracking cans, killing Terminators with Plasma Cannon Spam,or deep striking in and wiping out gun lines of Tau/IG/whatever with Heavy Flamers, Oblits are the Swiss Army Knife of killers. In this edition they even have Assault Cannons back which are also very nice and come up quite often.


I've had games where a single squad of chosen popped a vehicle every turn. However stuff like that only happens once against an opponent before they realize that you can't have that many meltas walking around. Which is the point I've been trying to make that you've been completely disregarding.

I do it all the time. My opponents are used to it. But when most things in my army have Melta-Guns there isn't any way to get them all. Just recently my Chosen cut a Knight down like a tree. Granted, it was a high points game and I delivered them with a Chaos Proteus Land Raider configuration. You are correct that Chosen squads do get attention, but my lists don't really come with anything that isn't ridiculously dangerous. Most of the time everyone is shooting at my Daemon Prince(s). I believe in threat saturation to disrupt an opponents discipline of fire.


The reason why I'm "arguing" with you is because my experience has been completely different than the way you are portraying it. Things aren't so cut and dry and simple as you seem to be trying to present.

We agree here. Nothing is cut and dried. No plan survives contact with the enemy. However, you still play the odds. Our debate is over the Helldrake and whether or not it took as hard a hit as some people think it did. So far its utility to me hasn't changed one bit. I love the Helldrake. Would I like it if the Vector Strike still did a D3+1? Sure. Would I like it if it could still fire 360? No. I prefer being able to run more Helldrakes without my opponent being able to say diddly. :D I have yet to find a situation where I can't bring my Baleflamer to bear, so I consider the loss of firing arc to be a paper tiger. Thus, we return to the Vector Strike as the only real reduction from my application point of view. My primary use for the Vector Strike was to kill annoying specialist units in cover (Vindicare Assassins, Deathleapers, etc.) the kinds of things that are a SERIOUS pain and take forever to get to if you are doing it by any other means. I also like hitting Daemon Princes. At the Alamo GT (not the most recent but the one before) I took out a Bloodthirster by waving it with Helldrakes coming in. Sadly, the reduction suffered recently would make killing it that way unlikely short of a LOT of dragons, but it still is a good way to hit big nasty things on the ground without having to actually put things at risk.

While nothing is cut and dried, there are concrete realities in 40K too. Probability is a harsh mistress and although she can be cruel and capricious, overall the Bell Curve is your friend. The more dice you through the closer to the Bell Curve average things will become. For this reason I play the odds whenever possible. Thus, as I said before, I will hit a vehicle with a Helldrake if I have nothing "better" to Vector Strike; why wouldn't I? It will simply be the last thing on my list after I've made sure there is nothing more tempting. That is because against most land vehicles the Vector Strike is nothing more than a Hail Mary. In other words, it is possible to unscrew something with a kitchen knife but your life is a whole lot easier if you use a screwdriver.


Is the Heldrake the best Anti-Armor tool in the box? Heck no. It's mediocre at best; barely able to. Strength 7 AP2 is crap for anti-armor, but it is pretty amazing for hunting transports when it always hits side armor, ignores cover and did D3+1 Auto Hits. Other than my Chosen with 5+ meltas, my Heldrake has always been one of the best vehicle destroying units I've had.

The point I keep trying to make is that the Heldrake can't even do this anymore. All it can do now is anti-infantry.

Obliterators will stand you better in this job. They expensive but worth every penny. More to the point (as I said before) they afford you tactical options is a wide variety of match ups. I can see why this change bothers you more. You rely on it. I don't.

[Caitsidhe]

And a final note on Helldrakes and their increased value. There is a Formation called the Helldrake Fear Squadron which allows you (as long as you bring at least three of them to the table) to START the game with them already deployed. There is need to wait until Turn-2 and risk AA fire coming in. You get an entire extra turn to burn things down. You also get to use your Daemon Engine every turn (not just once) and get a free 60" Vector Strike before the game starts. Since you start on the table you can go right off the board even if you think that is safer. Thus, if you run the minimum of (3) Helldrakes for the formation you can hit one target with three STR-7/AP-2 hits to soften it up. This happens at no increased cost, so if you are going to run three Helldrakes, why wouldn't you take the free options?

[The Tisroc]

As some of my opponents who are online here can tell you, my armies are always replete with Melta-Guns. I can definitely confirm this. I am a regular opponent of Caitsidhe and he's been calling his army Living La Vida Melta since 5th Edition.

[Krefey]

Well, quite honestly nothing is unique anymore. Everyone has access to everything at all times. Eh. Games Workshop has striven very hard, for a long time, to kill their goose that laid the golden egg. They have more or less done it. They have jumped the shark. When anyone can use anything and pretty much in anyway, there really is no place else to go. The truth is we will be seeing an obscene number of cheese combinations in the future and you are quite correct that the Helldrake's primary purpose of killing Power Armor might very well be obsolete. Who knows how much Power Armor we are even going to see.

I think this is a narrow way of looking at it. GW have (and stated tey have) provided rules framework for your games. They are not telling people "this has to be how you play your games, with anything and everything". As a framework, it is up to the players (and tournament organisers) to choose which elements of the framework work best for them for the outcome they want.

Yes, the rules as they are, are open to all kinds of tom foolery and abuse for all kinds of combinations. As I said though, it is up to the players to decide if that's how they want to play the game. I certainly can't see many tournaments just saying "have at it". I just don't think it's a good approach to the game to go with a just because you can do something, you will attitude. There needs to be an element of self moderation. That and if you're goign to continually be "that guy", I suspect you'll fast run out of opponents unless they are all "that guy" too. In which case, what does it matter?

[Caitsidhe]

I think this is a narrow way of looking at it. GW have (and stated tey have) provided rules framework for your games. They are not telling people "this has to be how you play your games, with anything and everything". As a framework, it is up to the players (and tournament organisers) to choose which elements of the framework work best for them for the outcome they want.

It is a pragmatic way of looking at it. The rule book (per Games Workshop) goes out of its way to set it up to so you can build your dream list, encourages it even. 7th Edition is really NOTHING more than 6th Edition with a new Psychic Phase, a few Faqs and Errata, and the NEW way to build your armies anyway you want. Most of the changes are dedicated to just that. :D What you are suggesting is that Games Workshop gets to be the White Knight granting us leave, that we are expected to NOT use. :) To put it in campy nostalgia you are making the "I Dream of Genie" or the "Bewitched" argument. It works like this:

Genie: I'm a Genie master and I can grant you your every wish. What would you like?
Major Nelson: That's great Genie but you aren't to use your powers. Get back in your bottle.

Samantha: Darren, I'm a witch. I love you and because of magic we can have whatever we need anytime we want.
Darren: Darn it Samantha there will be no hocus pocus in this house! Get back in the kitchen.

Games Workshop doesn't get to have it both ways. They don't get to create a situation where they get to be the "gift bearers" while the expectation is that we won't use the gifts.


Yes, the rules as they are, are open to all kinds of tom foolery and abuse for all kinds of combinations. As I said though, it is up to the players to decide if that's how they want to play the game. I certainly can't see many tournaments just saying "have at it". I just don't think it's a good approach to the game to go with a just because you can do something, you will attitude. There needs to be an element of self moderation. That and if you're goign to continually be "that guy", I suspect you'll fast run out of opponents unless they are all "that guy" too. In which case, what does it matter?

Of course it is up to players to decide how they are going to play. The problem is without a common standard (which normally would come from the rules and game balance) each and every person gets to decide what is and isn't abuse. There is no such thing as "that guy" nor that nonsense about people running out of opponents. The term "that guy" is about as useful as calling someone a "troll". It is entirely subjective and is applied to anyone you disagree with or to whom you lost a game. I know lots of people who seem to fit the definition of "that guy" and they are never lacking for opponents. :D Pull the other leg. I agree with you that local players and event organizers will set some kind of restraint; it is either that or just give up on the game. That doesn't absolve Games Workshop for shoddy craftsmanship.

P.S.

Going back to my nostalgic examples, every episode of "I Dream of Genie" and "Bewitched" was the same. Despite what Major Nelson and Darren said, wishes were granted and magic was used. You can't put the Genie back in the bottle once it is out.

[Krefey]

From a player who has changed his focus to more of a hobby perspective than a competitive gaming perspective, I like the changes. I'm certainly not going to go out and run 6 wraithknights or something stupid like that. I want my games to be challenging and fun, not lopsided and one dimensional. Even when the tournament scene was pretty much the only time I got any games in, I tried to use a softer list to challenge myself, so that when I won games, I felt a greater sense of accomplishment, particularly if I was up agsinst tough opponents with a tougher list.

Having said that, I know people approach the game differently. Those people who like to build the balls to the wall kind of list that are capable of smashign face are going to like this edition even more. Now they can come up with even more "awesome" broken combos.

So it still boils down to my point that the kind of person who wants to abuse the system and create the most broken possible army possible is always goign to be tehre. It is up to the community to decide if it wants to allow those kinds of lists or but in an artificial restriction. I see no issues with restrcitions when you are provided a framework to work with. It happens all the time in my field of work. Various companies put in methodology frameworks that other companies then adopt parts of that suit them the best and don't use the ones that don't quite work from them.

I guess I just don't quite get the whole mentality of "GW says I can use it, so you can't stop me from doing so". I know you're not actually saying that's the case, since you agree restrictions will be set in place, but I know people who do think that. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

[Caitsidhe]

I guess I just don't quite get the whole mentality of "GW says I can use it, so you can't stop me from doing so". I know you're not actually saying that's the case, since you agree restrictions will be set in place, but I know people who do think that. Just because you can, doesn't mean you should.

I'm glad you discern meaning. The bottle shouldn't have been opened in the first place. Game Workshop should be providing the balance and the standard. That is, in fact, what the rules are supposed to define. If not, what the hell are we paying them all that money for the rules for? :D We, as players, could always choose to ignore the rules for the odd fluffy lark. What we need from the rules is a common, standard.

[Krefey]

What we need from the rules is a common, standard.

Which is the point behind a framework. It provides the common standard of rules and how to play and put together an army. But after that, it is up to the player base to then implement which elements they want to keep and which they want to restrict or discard.

The rules as they are have opened up wht people can and can't do massively. This helps those players who always wanted to do something like an all dreadnought army, but before were restricted form doing so because of the opinion they were forced into a shoebox with the standard force org chart. Mind you it makes things a bit more difficult for those who liked the structure of the old force org chart because they like to have the restrictions in place forcing choices (but having said that, with the way allies and all the supplements changed things, the old force org was a mess anyway).

In the end, I think we're probably going to disagree about if the changes are good or bad and for different reasons.

[Charon]

Which is the point behind a framework. It provides the common standard of rules and how to play and put together an army. But after that, it is up to the player base to then implement which elements they want to keep and which they want to restrict or discard.


I really like this.
It would be a very good edition when I could chose which rules to kep, discard or restrict. Thats indeed what a Framework should do.
Welcome to GW where the framework is so thin that you cant just remove things (or you might collapse the whole framework) but instead "invent" new things, add things and change things. That should be bare minimum done by the customer - not a standard.
If you look at the P&PRPG section you have rules for nearly EVERYTHING. Too much rules... waaaay to much. But this is indeed good design. You can remove rules. You can restrict rules. You can keep rules. Or in rare cases you want to modify them or add somethin the designers have not thought of.
40k is a game with a very thin rules section (mostly pictures, big letters and special cases) und not even very good rules. Starting by true line of sight (look for example at the taurox rockets or AS exorcists) and ending with the new psi phase.

[Kristopholes]

The point I keep trying to make is that the Heldrake can't even do this anymore. All it can do now is anti-infantry.

I disagree. As said before it was always sort of a Hail Mary with popping cans on a vector strike and those sort of things could normally be left to things better suited for the task (meltas, lascannons, lances, and such) and the vector strike was used if those things failed in the next movement turn. I personally never relied on the vector strike to take out or really damage ground targets.

Now the vector strike has changed to one hit on ground targets BUT its still does D3 against Air Units, which is exactly what i use it for. In the past couple of games I've played where my opponent had air units I used my two heldrakes to vector strike and then flame infantry behind those air units. By doing this I've taken down or damaged 4 air units in 3 games. In one case I managed to get three penetrating hits on a barracuda and caused it to crash and burn into a squad of fire caste warriors... which was hilarious, lucky as hell, but hilarious.

Overall the Heldrake is limited now but by no means is it to be shelved. Great anti-air capabilities with its vector strike at AP 2 now and fantastic infantry killing capabilities. At turn 4 when you've reached near the end of the board you make the choice to either go into hover or ongoing reserves, depends on if you have something in the back you need to clean up haha

[This Dave]

Yeah I always thought the Vector Strike was intended to give the Helldrake some way to deal with other Flyers since the Baleflamer can't shoot at them and no one bothers with the cannon thing.

[Demonus]

Yep I would have loved to see it have more gun options than 1, but oh well.

[Brettila]

I dont think the FAQ destroyed heldrakes, BUT it was unnecessarily harsh in my opinion. Pre-the old FAQ the two camps were actually 360 and 180, no one suggested 45. (or at least no one who didnt just hate the concept and think that CSM were OP) its just too restrictive and most importantly makes no sense at all. This thing is a mechanical dragon and its rules are intended to make it somewhere between a vehicle and a MC and a 45 hull mount just does not reflect that

We have a typical GW overreaction the other way with the change to the Helldrake. I agree that 360 was silly. However, with that neck (And only 1 gun, while other flyers get 4!) it should be at least 90, and probably 180. And no, Oblits are not that great anymore. They lost heavy bolters and autocannons, as well as being the only demon models to lose Fearless. Oh, and while we're at it let's take 2 points of leadership away for no reason. The GW philosophy, "People always play this, let's make it terrible so they will buy all new stuff." Anyone remember what happened to terminators and assault cannons from 2nd to 3rd?

[Charon]

Anyone remember what happened to terminators and assault cannons from 2nd to 3rd?

They did not hit the assault cannon as hard as the twin linked autocannon. TL AC was rerolling jams as it was more reliable. In the end both balanced out. Then they made twinlinked just a reroll and got rid of weapon malfunctions whih made the assault cannon superior by a huge margin.

[Caitsidhe]

. And no, Oblits are not that great anymore. They lost heavy bolters and autocannons, as well as being the only demon models to lose Fearless. Oh, and while we're at it let's take 2 points of leadership away for no reason. The GW philosophy, "People always play this, let's make it terrible so they will buy all new stuff." Anyone remember what happened to terminators and assault cannons from 2nd to 3rd?

What are you talking about? Obliterators got Assault Cannons in 6th which are quite nice. It is a perk not to have Fearless as it means you can opt to "go to ground" which is very useful in small units that drop on objectives as well as shoot the crud out of things. It means you can work to keep them around longer when important. Obliterators, a minimum of one unit at least, is pretty much auto-include for me.