First 7th Ed Game Impressions

[ElectricPaladin]

I got to play my first game of 7th last night. I'm fairly confident that we actually played 7th, as it was me (an experienced player) vs. a nearly new player (back after years away) so I got to look up every single rule as we played so I could explain it properly, which gave me the opportunity to reteach myself as well.

And yes, it was a success. The new guy will be starting either White Scars or Grey Knights, or White Scars with Grey Knights allies. He suffered a bit over becoming "just another" power armor player, but in the end he decided to go with the models and fluff that spoke to him.

So, my impressions overall are:

1) Not an awful lot has changed. It's still basically the game I learned back when I first started playing at the end of 5th. The game plays very similarly, but...

2) The psychic phase is fun. As the Tyranid player - I don't actually play Tyranids, but that's the demo army my FLGS had - I got to play around with a decently powerful psyker. The Psychic Focus rule gives psykers a nice boost. The psychic phase is a fun tactical experience. My opponent was not bored or turned off by not having a psyker of his own - in fact, he seemed to enjoy managing the resources available to him to pick which of my powers to attempt to deny. Psykers did take a hit, overall, in the sense that powers seem more likely to fail. In this particular game, I lost three powers; two failed to cast and one was Denied. This is far fewer than I usually did in most games of 6th with a Ld 10 psyker.

3) The changes to shooting are very intuitive, and my new player opponent understood them immediately and began making smart choices right away.

Of course, nobody here was trying to break the game. It was 500 points, fairly generic Space Marines vs. fairly generic Tyranids. I played pretty hard, and don't think I would have done much of anything differently vs. another experienced player (except, you know, bring my own army that I actually know what I'm doing with).

It was a fun game. No complaints so far.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Thanks for the impressions! I'm between armies at the moment so my first game is probably a couple of weeks away still.

[Defenestratus]

Funny how my impression of the psychic phase was the complete opposite.

Nothing but futility and frustration the entire game.

[ElectricPaladin]

Funny how my impression of the psychic phase was the complete opposite.

Nothing but futility and frustration the entire game.

Weird... maybe I'm just used to it from my Fantasy experiences? I can definitely tell you that my opponent hadn't played since around the juncture of 3rd and 4th, and he loved it.

[Caitsidhe]

Weird... maybe I'm just used to it from my Fantasy experiences? I can definitely tell you that my opponent hadn't played since around the juncture of 3rd and 4th, and he loved it.

In fairness, why wouldn't he? If he hasn't played in forever and now gets a game in with a regular who helps him do all the work, why wouldn't he be ecstatic? :D And let's be quite honest, 500pts is not exactly a test of the new psychic rules. :D

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Also - not everyone has the same reaction you do. ;)

[ElectricPaladin]

In fairness, why wouldn't he? If he hasn't played in forever and now gets a game in with a regular who helps him do all the work, why wouldn't he be ecstatic? :D And let's be quite honest, 500pts is not exactly a test of the new psychic rules. :D


Also - not everyone has the same reaction you do. ;)

No, no, it's actually a fair critique. My one rebuttal is that I wasn't doing all the work - once I'd explained the rule to him, he took on working the rules for himself. I was there to help, it's true, but I wasn't telling him what to do every turn.

But honestly? It's entirely possible that the system falls apart at higher points levels, with multiple psykers with multiple disciplines on each side. I don't know yet.

From what I've experienced, I would argue that this system definitely has a learning curve. It's entirely possible that if a veteran 6th Edition player were to jump directly into 7th, the system will feel unbearably clunky, but by the time we're all experienced in 7th, it'll feel quite intuitive.

Maybe?

Let's stay in the mind of "we don't know what we don't know."

[Eldar_Atog]

Funny how my impression of the psychic phase was the complete opposite.

Nothing but futility and frustration the entire game.


Futility and frustration ruled the day at the shop. Played 1 game myself and watched 3 others. My psyker got 1 spell off successfully, 2 perils results, and about 4 denies. The success rate in the other games seemed not much better than 25%.

I would have no problem in comparing the psyker phase to a bucket of blood red urine.

[ElectricPaladin]

Futility and frustration ruled the day at the shop. Played 1 game myself and watched 3 others. My psyker got 1 spell off successfully, 2 perils results, and about 4 denies. The success rate in the other games seemed not much better than 25%.

I would have no problem in comparing the psyker phase to a bucket of blood red urine.


So... freaking... weird.

I mean, sure, I had to get used to the idea that I wasn't going to cast as many powers as I was used to. I threw more dice at the powers that I really wanted and used "just enough" dice on the throw-away powers. And honestly, I didn't mind that I failed more often. And I never Periled even once.

[Eldar_Atog]

So... freaking... weird.

I mean, sure, I had to get used to the idea that I wasn't going to cast as many powers as I was used to. I threw more dice at the powers that I really wanted and used "just enough" dice on the throw-away powers. And honestly, I didn't mind that I failed more often. And I never Periled even once.

Just to give more specifics, I was using 1 farseer and I usually had 4 or 5 warp charges. My opponent had no psykers and had 5-6 dice for deny. The powers that I was trying to cast were Guide and Doom so my opponent always had an incentive to deny. I usually rolled 2 dice per power until I got so frustrated that I started rolling 3 dice for Guide. Got a perils result every time I used 3 dice.

My opponent rolled at least one 6 every time he rolled to deny.

[ElectricPaladin]

Yeah... I had one ML2 hive tyrant, so it was more or less the same. I used three or four dice when I really wanted a power to go off like when I badly wanted to Warp Blast a rhino to death. I never periled.

[DarkLink]

It's best to use the minimum dice you can while still being reliable and casting more powers. Unless, that is, you really need to get one particular power off. Normally, I'd throw three dice at ML1, 5 at ML2, and 7 at ML3 powers. That gives you about an 80% chance of success for each without too much dice investment.

[gungagreg]

I'm enjoying army building more - generally play for fun and find that the new Battle Forge supports the type of "for fun" lists I play with better. Not really impacted by the Unbound as, well, when we want to play that we already did and didn't need rules telling us it was ok! ;)

[Dambiel]

Just an observation, but 1 6 will not deny a succesful 2 warp charge power. He must cancel both your successes in order to deny the power. Also, getting a perils every time you throw 3 dice? That's just some horrible statistical night mare there.. 2 6's out of 3 dice every time? I suspect a bit of exageration may have crept into your recollection.

[Andrew Thomas]

The acid test is to play Unbound v. Unbound. You get the opportunity to see if you've considered everything your list could or couldn't handle.

[Demonus]

Just to give more specifics, I was using 1 farseer and I usually had 4 or 5 warp charges. My opponent had no psykers and had 5-6 dice for deny.

Is this possible? If he had no psykers wouldn't he just get the d6 roll for denial dice? You should have had at least 1 more than him since you had a psyker right?

[Eldar_Atog]

Is this possible? If he had no psykers wouldn't he just get the d6 roll for denial dice? You should have had at least 1 more than him since you had a psyker right?

It's very possible when your dice hate you. ML3 plus dice rolls of 1 and 2 while my opponent rolled 5 and 6 for their denial dice.

Dambiel:
Guide has a warp charge of 1 and that is the primary power that I used. You'd be surprised how terrible I can roll. I should probably go to the casino and put my money on the hard 12 slot on the craps table. I'd clean up...

[sfshilo]

Multiple 4+ to pass is much more finicky then a 2d6 ld test.

Each result is 50/50 with not a lot of options, where as a 2d6 has a much nicer cleaner curve, especially at ld 8 and up.

You will see much more drastic swings in your dice rolls with a single die then 2d6 combined.

Think of it this way, the psychic phase just became BS3.....

[ElectricPaladin]

Think of it this way, the psychic phase just became BS3.....

Heh. And reality has a 6+ invulnerable save?

[Patrick Boyle]

Just to give more specifics, I was using 1 farseer and I usually had 4 or 5 warp charges. My opponent had no psykers and had 5-6 dice for deny. The powers that I was trying to cast were Guide and Doom so my opponent always had an incentive to deny. I usually rolled 2 dice per power until I got so frustrated that I started rolling 3 dice for Guide. Got a perils result every time I used 3 dice.

My opponent rolled at least one 6 every time he rolled to deny.

Well, to start, that is actually impossible. You roll a single D6 at the start of the psychic phase, and that's the base for both of you, you each add your mastery levels to that number. So every round you would have had 3+1d6 while your psykerless opponent would have had the same 1d6 result, which is to say you would always have more dice available by simply having a psyker while they didn't..

Second, to successfully Deny the Witch, you have to roll a 6 for every 4+ rolled to activate the power. So if you ever rolled, say, two 4+'s to activate a power, regardless of how many WC the power takes, your opponent needed to roll two 6's to deny it. That alone should have cut down his deny success unless your opponent was rolling absurdly hot.

Third, with perils only occurring on two or more 6's, you seriously rolled two or more every time you rolled three dice? I find that hard to believe unless you're less lucky than I am.

So generally, it sounds like you both needed to read the rules a little more closely. And refer to the numbers in this thread (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?45643-Psychic-phase-numbers) about casting powers. Rolling 2d6 for a 1 WC power is roughly equivalent to the success rate of a Leadership 8 pskyer in 6th edition. You have to throw at least 4 dice to match/beat 6th ed LD10 success rates, though 3 dice is pretty close.

[Erik Setzer]

It's very possible when your dice hate you. ML3 plus dice rolls of 1 and 2 while my opponent rolled 5 and 6 for their denial dice.

That's not the way it works. The player whose turn it is rolls a D6, and BOTH players get the number rolled on that D6. So if you roll a 2, you get 5 dice (2 + 3) while your opponent will only get 2. He doesn't get to roll his own D6.

[ElectricPaladin]

That's not the way it works. The player whose turn it is rolls a D6, and BOTH players get the number rolled on that D6. So if you roll a 2, you get 5 dice (2 + 3) while your opponent will only get 2. He doesn't get to roll his own D6.

This is an important fact. It means that you always have near-equivalent dice (barring differences in the number of MLs to a side). That significantly reduces the chaos of the situation, and means that you need to pay if you want to have a game-dominating number of dice.

[Lost Vyper]

I like the 7th edition Psychic Phase and i play Eldar...i don´t mind, that i can´t succeed in EVERY power i use, it´s "all in the game", cos so can´t the opponent. It makes game MORE interesting, you can´t just rely on one power going off, you have to plan carefully. We have played now two game with psykers, one with me being the more powerful one and vice versa. Both of those have been fun, even when i had REALLY crappy powers in the later game :)...i´m liking the 7th edition so far actually a lot. Maelstrom missions can bite you/opponent in the a** in the final round, but at least it keeps the game interesting and not two static gun lines shooting each other. First time ever, i saw opponent going flat-out with Heldrake to score an objective, risking it´s future surviving! That´s awesome!

- Lost Vyper

[Krefey]

*delted - whoops, double posted when I didn't realise my posts had to be mod approved first still.

[DarkLink]

This is an important fact. It means that you always have near-equivalent dice (barring differences in the number of MLs to a side). That significantly reduces the chaos of the situation, and means that you need to pay if you want to have a game-dominating number of dice.

The issue is, some armies get such easy access to psykers that they don't really have to pay much. If you don't play GKs, Daemons, or to a lesser extent Eldar, CSM, or Nids, there's little point in taking a psyker because if you run into one of those armies, you're going to get shut down and unlike them, you can't reasonably generate enough dice to overcome that gap so your psykers become wasted points.

[Krefey]

Still haven't had a game of 7th yet :( Hard when you currently live in a city of 20 odd million people and only a select few play the game.

I like the sound of the psychic phase, but would like to play the game before I can properly comment. I do think people are over-reacting about it though and I don't think it is as bad as people say it is. I'm not convinced people playing the daemon spam armies are playing it right.

Two minor changes for the rules I noticed though:

LOS is drawn from any part of the model as well as too any part of the model. Meaning you no longer need to draw LOS to your target from the model's "eyes". Helps against those rules lawyer types who were claiming wraith units couldn't shoot since they had no "eyes" :P

The other little change I noticed was that any unit with an attached IC can attempt to reqroup at normal Ld now, regardless of casualties.

[ElectricPaladin]

The issue is, some armies get such easy access to psykers that they don't really have to pay much. If you don't play GKs, Daemons, or to a lesser extent Eldar, CSM, or Nids, there's little point in taking a psyker because if you run into one of those armies, you're going to get shut down and unlike them, you can't reasonably generate enough dice to overcome that gap so your psykers become wasted points.

Oh, it's still a potential problem. Just not as big a problem as it could be if we rolled two separate dice.

[Cap'nSmurfs]

Even a level one Librarian can be useful for Space Marines because of the Psychic Hood. A 12" bubble of 5+ denial isn't necessarily amazing, but it's better than nothing, and Librarians come pretty cheap these days. Worth it, I think.

[Roadrunner]

I finally had my first game of 7th yesterday.

It was my Astra Militarum vs. his Necron army.

Firstly, I think the Psychic Phase is excellent. It really does give Psykers a harder time than before. He had no Psykers at all, and even though he denied nothing in the game, I was casting much fewer powers than I would normally cast in 6th.

Over the course of the game, he was hammering me. I had some terrible luck, and he had some great luck. Not to mention he had that angry robot Thor character (Imhotep?) creating night fighting and lightning. Really terrible conditions for a Guard army. However, I still managed to pull out a draw because of the Maelstrom missions. Rushing over to claim or contest an objective by running a unit instead of shooting, or going flat-out makes everything a lot more interesting. The tactical side seems much deeper than Eternal War missions.

I agree that there are faults with it (I got the 'Witch Hunter' objective...) but I feel it still works well. In the end the entire game came down to a combat between Bullgryns and a unit of Warriors + Imhotep. If the Bullgryns held the line, they would contest an objective that he needed to get, just to claim a draw. I lost the combat and fled, leaving him to secure the objective. Very close, and very tense.

I look forward to my next game!

[Demonus]

Sounds like a fun game :)

LOL my friends HATE Imohtek. The nerf to night fighting though should help cull the rage towards him. I kept an entire AM army in check last game by limiting his shooting to 36".

[Eldar_Atog]

This is an important fact. It means that you always have near-equivalent dice (barring differences in the number of MLs to a side). That significantly reduces the chaos of the situation, and means that you need to pay if you want to have a game-dominating number of dice.

Yeah, that is an important difference. Gonna have to give that another try.

[DarkLink]

Unless you play one of the psychically dominant armies, where you basically get a bunch of psychic dice practically for free. The d6 per player becomes pretty negligible at that point. I mean, I haven't tried spamming dice yet, my army just comes with ~15 naturally.

[Melon-neko]

Unless you play one of the psychically dominant armies, where you basically get a bunch of psychic dice practically for free. The d6 per player becomes pretty negligible at that point. I mean, I haven't tried spamming dice yet, my army just comes with ~15 naturally.

I'm hoping grey knights will get a new codex and maybe at least their rhinos wont be psykers =(

[daboarder]

I'm hoping grey knights will get a new codex and maybe at least their rhinos wont be psykers =(

there is an entire special rule in the BRB for that, I dont think they are likely to lose it

[DarkLink]

And it's not like it will matter that much, it's just a few extra dice for me. I still generate a ton of dice even without them.

[John Bower]

Well, to start, that is actually impossible. You roll a single D6 at the start of the psychic phase, and that's the base for both of you, you each add your mastery levels to that number. So every round you would have had 3+1d6 while your psykerless opponent would have had the same 1d6 result, which is to say you would always have more dice available by simply having a psyker while they didn't..

Second, to successfully Deny the Witch, you have to roll a 6 for every 4+ rolled to activate the power. So if you ever rolled, say, two 4+'s to activate a power, regardless of how many WC the power takes, your opponent needed to roll two 6's to deny it. That alone should have cut down his deny success unless your opponent was rolling absurdly hot.

Third, with perils only occurring on two or more 6's, you seriously rolled two or more every time you rolled three dice? I find that hard to believe unless you're less lucky than I am.

So generally, it sounds like you both needed to read the rules a little more closely. And refer to the numbers in this thread (http://www.lounge.belloflostsouls.net/showthread.php?45643-Psychic-phase-numbers) about casting powers. Rolling 2d6 for a 1 WC power is roughly equivalent to the success rate of a Leadership 8 pskyer in 6th edition. You have to throw at least 4 dice to match/beat 6th ed LD10 success rates, though 3 dice is pretty close.

I have to say that a similar run of lousy luck happened in my 1st game of 7th. Did more DMG with perils than my mates crowns did. However we played 2 games and didn't peril once in the second game.

[Erik Setzer]

On the topic of insane luck with psychic powers and playing with the new rules...

I brought out my Orks yesterday for a quick spin before the new codex arrives. Played two games, used a couple of ML2 Weirdboyz for giggles even though Orks can only use Daemonology. First game was against another Ork army, loads of fun, I'll touch on that one. The second was against Space Wolves and reminded me why I don't like the current Ork codex or Space Wolf codex (I think pretty much my entire army was destroyed by the end of turn 2, and about half of that was in close combat).

Actually, no, let me touch on the second one. It shows some of the abuses you can do. And I like the player, but I think the mentality of our local "beat everyone's face in with gimmicked lists" has tainted his list building. 1500 points, he brought a list like this:

Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf, Thunder Hammer, Stormshield, a bunch of Fenrisian Wolves
2x Grey Hunter Pack (10) with two flamers
2x Ministorum Priest
1x Primaris Psyker
1x Runepriest
2x Long Fangs Pack (6) with five missile launchers
Manticore
AM Command Squad
AM Veteran Squad with missile launcher
Valkyrie
Aegis Line with quad gun

One Priest and one psyker each (both with Biomancy) joined the two Grey Hunter Packs, one of which the Wolf Lord joined. He got Endurance with both. So it's now two Grey Hunter packs running around with Feel No Pain (4+), Relentless, Eternal Warrior, and rerolling failed saves. Sure, you have to get kind of lucky to get all that stuff off, I suppose, but he managed it. So my Warboss and Mega-Nobz hit one pack, his Wolf Lord shredded my Warboss and two Mega-Nobz, the Mega-Nobz did jack squat because the Grey Hunters got their FNP (4+) thanks to having Eternal Warrior, and that unit died. Two massive Ork mobs disintegated in combat against the other Grey Hunter pack (one of them even got to charge the Grey Hunters... but that didn't much help). And then there were krak missiles flying everywhere (hello, Open-Topped Battlewagon!), and S10 AP1 multiple template Ordnance barrages dropping all over, and the Master of the Ordnance... But yeah, those two damn squads, watching my army just crumbling in waves to them thanks to that combination of stuff (brought to you by Battle Brothers!)... it was hard to plow through that game. It was disheartening.

So anyway, the first game...

In the first game, it was pretty much evenly matched armies, with Relic as the mission. But I had one of my Weirdboyz who turned the tide on his own, pretty much. He ended up summoning three packs of Horrors by the time it was done, as well as a pack of Bloodletters; one of the Horrors units summoned a pair of Heralds; the other ended up sacrificing its last four members to summon in a Keeper of Secrets (would have been Lord of Change, but I don't have one of those yet). Didn't get Perils on the first turn; second turn he had Perils but passed; third turn he had Perils, got a 6, passed his Leadership test, and promptly obliterated the Killer Kanz that were holding up the unit he was in (the Nob with Power Klaw was surprisingly useless), and then the next turn he did the same thing again and passed on his base Leadership (there wasn't really a mob left at that point), whereupon he proceeded to lay the smackdown on some Flash Gitz in assault. Tremendously lucky, but it did get a little ridiculous that I was able to just churn out Daemons like crazy with an Ork army. By the time I was done, in a 1500 point game, one Weirdboy was responsible for having added 880 additional points worth of models (because the Daemons he summoned ended up summoning more Daemons).

Yeah, this edition's going to be a bit insane...

[Caitsidhe]

On the topic of insane luck with psychic powers and playing with the new rules...

I brought out my Orks yesterday for a quick spin before the new codex arrives. Played two games, used a couple of ML2 Weirdboyz for giggles even though Orks can only use Daemonology. First game was against another Ork army, loads of fun, I'll touch on that one. The second was against Space Wolves and reminded me why I don't like the current Ork codex or Space Wolf codex (I think pretty much my entire army was destroyed by the end of turn 2, and about half of that was in close combat).

Actually, no, let me touch on the second one. It shows some of the abuses you can do. And I like the player, but I think the mentality of our local "beat everyone's face in with gimmicked lists" has tainted his list building. 1500 points, he brought a list like this:

Wolf Lord on Thunderwolf, Thunder Hammer, Stormshield, a bunch of Fenrisian Wolves
2x Grey Hunter Pack (10) with two flamers
2x Ministorum Priest
1x Primaris Psyker
1x Runepriest
2x Long Fangs Pack (6) with five missile launchers
Manticore
AM Command Squad
AM Veteran Squad with missile launcher
Valkyrie
Aegis Line with quad gun

One Priest and one psyker each (both with Biomancy) joined the two Grey Hunter Packs, one of which the Wolf Lord joined. He got Endurance with both. So it's now two Grey Hunter packs running around with Feel No Pain (4+), Relentless, Eternal Warrior, and rerolling failed saves. Sure, you have to get kind of lucky to get all that stuff off, I suppose, but he managed it. So my Warboss and Mega-Nobz hit one pack, his Wolf Lord shredded my Warboss and two Mega-Nobz, the Mega-Nobz did jack squat because the Grey Hunters got their FNP (4+) thanks to having Eternal Warrior, and that unit died. Two massive Ork mobs disintegated in combat against the other Grey Hunter pack (one of them even got to charge the Grey Hunters... but that didn't much help). And then there were krak missiles flying everywhere (hello, Open-Topped Battlewagon!), and S10 AP1 multiple template Ordnance barrages dropping all over, and the Master of the Ordnance... But yeah, those two damn squads, watching my army just crumbling in waves to them thanks to that combination of stuff (brought to you by Battle Brothers!)... it was hard to plow through that game. It was disheartening.

So anyway, the first game...

In the first game, it was pretty much evenly matched armies, with Relic as the mission. But I had one of my Weirdboyz who turned the tide on his own, pretty much. He ended up summoning three packs of Horrors by the time it was done, as well as a pack of Bloodletters; one of the Horrors units summoned a pair of Heralds; the other ended up sacrificing its last four members to summon in a Keeper of Secrets (would have been Lord of Change, but I don't have one of those yet). Didn't get Perils on the first turn; second turn he had Perils but passed; third turn he had Perils, got a 6, passed his Leadership test, and promptly obliterated the Killer Kanz that were holding up the unit he was in (the Nob with Power Klaw was surprisingly useless), and then the next turn he did the same thing again and passed on his base Leadership (there wasn't really a mob left at that point), whereupon he proceeded to lay the smackdown on some Flash Gitz in assault. Tremendously lucky, but it did get a little ridiculous that I was able to just churn out Daemons like crazy with an Ork army. By the time I was done, in a 1500 point game, one Weirdboy was responsible for having added 880 additional points worth of models (because the Daemons he summoned ended up summoning more Daemons).

Yeah, this edition's going to be a bit insane...

I wouldn't have minded fighting this with my "The Cheese Stands Alone: Another Flying Circus" list. But you are correct, the entire lack of standards make this Edition entirely insane.

[DarkLink]

One Priest and one psyker each (both with Biomancy) joined the two Grey Hunter Packs, one of which the Wolf Lord joined. He got Endurance with both. So it's now two Grey Hunter packs running around with Feel No Pain (4+), Relentless, Eternal Warrior, and rerolling failed saves. Sure, you have to get kind of lucky to get all that stuff off, I suppose, but he managed it. So my Warboss and Mega-Nobz hit one pack, his Wolf Lord shredded my Warboss and two Mega-Nobz, the Mega-Nobz did jack squat because the Grey Hunters got their FNP (4+) thanks to having Eternal Warrior, and that unit died.

The only ways for SW to get reroll saves is their wolf banner (which is only once per game and only for rerolling 1's), or precognition, which you can only cast on the psyker himself so the Grey Hunters and the Wolf Lord can't take it. And in 6th, you could not take FNP against ID even if you had Eternal Warrior, so I would check the rules on that. Though, that was clarified in an FAQ, and I don't doubt that GW was too sloppy to read over their own FAQ and make sure said questions weren't an issue in 7th, so it might still work.

[Erik Setzer]

The only ways for SW to get reroll saves is their wolf banner (which is only once per game and only for rerolling 1's), or precognition, which you can only cast on the psyker himself so the Grey Hunters and the Wolf Lord can't take it. And in 6th, you could not take FNP against ID even if you had Eternal Warrior, so I would check the rules on that. Though, that was clarified in an FAQ, and I don't doubt that GW was too sloppy to read over their own FAQ and make sure said questions weren't an issue in 7th, so it might still work.

Ministorum Priest's War Hymns include one to allow him and his *unit* to reroll failed armor and invulnerable saves. (He also gives the unit Zealot, so reroll failed to-hit rolls in the first round of combat). Being an Independent Character and an Imperial (so Battle Brothers with Space Wolves), that means he can join the unit to give them that bonus as well.

On the FNP thing, after looking through all the various sections of the rulebook, I do believe that's right, but it's hard to look all of that up in the middle of a game when you're not feeling well as it is and you're just being reminded of the myriad levels of shenanigans BS that Imperial armies can pull off these days. Seriously, the idea of a Priest going around making Space Marines even nastier is just freaking ridiculous. Ditto for Space Marines letting a Primaris Psyker use psychic powers on them all day long.

[DarkLink]

Ah, only works in assault though.

[Erik Setzer]

Ah, only works in assault though.

And where are Orks supposed to do their damage? Assault. But they took power weapons (except expensive striking-last klaws) off the Nobz, took the burnas out of the basic mobs (and stuck in them in an expensive unit that will just get mowed down with bolters before they get there), and S3 is kind of weedy, so any turn that an Ork unit hasn't charged, its ability to even hurt Marines is compromised.

I hope the Orks have something that helps them get around assault being nerfed so hard. Otherwise, I'll be stuck with a shooty Ork army.

[Cleon]

and S10 AP1 multiple template Ordnance barrages dropping all over, and the Master of the Ordnance...

For future reference, the Manticor is AP4 - not AP1.

[Mr Mystery]

And where are Orks supposed to do their damage? Assault. But they took power weapons (except expensive striking-last klaws) off the Nobz, took the burnas out of the basic mobs (and stuck in them in an expensive unit that will just get mowed down with bolters before they get there), and S3 is kind of weedy, so any turn that an Ork unit hasn't charged, its ability to even hurt Marines is compromised.

I hope the Orks have something that helps them get around assault being nerfed so hard. Otherwise, I'll be stuck with a shooty Ork army.

Re-roll a single charge dice when assaulting is pretty pokey.

And against Marines? I'd take squillions of attacks ta.

[Erik Setzer]

For future reference, the Manticor is AP4 - not AP1.

Right, sorry, my bad, it just feels like that when your entire army has no concept of armor and you're up against guys who don't seem to go down... I do know that it's AP isn't that impressive, which is nice, because it has to work at it to blow up my vehicles not. Well, a little. I mean, the Battlewagon is still +1 for Open Topped (why would I close up an assault vehicle?).

Luckily, I'm getting some freaking AP weapons in my new codex, so I'll be happier soon.

- - - Updated - - -


Re-roll a single charge dice when assaulting is pretty pokey.

And against Marines? I'd take squillions of attacks ta.

The Orks need Slugga Boyz to be more effective than they are now. Here's how this basically went in combat:

Orks charge. Marines Counter-Assault (after firing Overwatch!), strike first with Initiative. Zealot from Priest lets them reroll to hit, so they hit well, and pretty much any wound is a kill (6+ save, bleh). A bunch of Orks die. The remainder strike back. 4+ to hit, 4+ to wound for the first round, not shabby. So some attacks wound. Marines then proceed to roll 3+ armor. Oh, some of them failed. Well, reroll that (Priest) on a 3+ again. Hmm, one guy managed to fail again? Well, 4+ FNP (Biomancy). So no Marines die, because of 3+/3+/4+. The Nob took a guy down, but that's about it.

Again, I can shoot them to pieces... but until I get something to consistently deal with armor in combat, I'm going to keep watching Ork mobs being 29 ablative wounds for the one guy who can hurt a Marine, and those wounds tend to die fast. That's just no fun, not after 3rd edition with the choppas and power weapons.