Monstrous creature and assaulting multiple levels

[OlDirtyCosta]

Can anyone explain how this works.... Can a monstrous creature assault multiple levels? Do they have to be base to base?

[Katharon]

Base to base. You can't assault multiple levels at the same time with a single MC. If it were a squad that can make it up to fight on several levels, then yeah, that's fine, but no single model (MC or otherwise) can do what you described.

[OlDirtyCosta]

I apologize I didn't explain very well. I meant for example, if there are 3 levels and there is infantry on the second level but the monstrous creature can not fit on the second level can he still assault the infantry unit

[hyudun]

I apologize I didn't explain very well. I meant for example, if there are 3 levels and there is infantry on the second level but the monstrous creature can not fit on the second level can he still assault the infantry unit

It cannot assault:
1. Models can only climb up terrain if they can stand in their final location (Movement Phase; Moving Through Terrain)
2. Close Combat is specifically defined as when two units from two opposing armies are in base-to-base contact with each other (Assault Phase; Assault Phase Summary)
3. A unit cannot declare a charge against a unit it cannot reach (Assault Phase; Charge Sub-Phase; Declare Charge)

So if the Monstrous Creature can't fit, it can't get into base-to-base, therefore it cannot even declare a charge.

[This Dave]

Officially it can't assault for the reasons above.

In a friendly game though I'd go with GW's Rule of Cool and if the MC can reach the models on the second level I'd let it attack. How many times have you seen that in a monster movie? :)

[Charon]

There are more problems with this base to base contact stuff.
A friend of mine places his guard in the 2nd floor of a 3 story ruin. 2nd floor is full, assault squads standing around doing nothing.

[RGilbert26]

I don't see any issues there, if you want room kill a few in the shooting phase before you assault.

[John Bower]

Actually what they mean by 'finishing it's move where it can be stood' is 'not half way up a wall', if you read 'wobbly model syndrome' on the prior page it is possible even a small base may not stay there, which would really mean he shouldn't be there by that conjecture, but we all know some base sizes prevent models from standing where the model would be able to if it didn't have to have a base. Such as an MC on an upper level of a ruin. It clearly needs an FAQ on that; do they mean 'physically' cannot be stood, or do they mean in terrain where it 'can't be stood' for game purposes. I suspect it's the latter, you can't 'stop' a move half way up a wall, you have to remain on the level below instead.

[hyudun]

There are more problems with this base to base contact stuff.
A friend of mine places his guard in the 2nd floor of a 3 story ruin. 2nd floor is full, assault squads standing around doing nothing.

I'll throw this into my list of reasons to build stairs into ruins, on which you can take advantage of the Wobbly Model rule and just count it as being base-to-base with whoever's at the top of the stairs. Still not an elegant assault, but really charging up stairs/ladders into a completely full room is not elegant in real life either; you'd typically order your flamers or other blast template weapons to clear them out a bit first. Don't forget you can throw a grenade into that crowded room.

[hyudun]

Actually what they mean by 'finishing it's move where it can be stood' is 'not half way up a wall', if you read 'wobbly model syndrome' on the prior page it is possible even a small base may not stay there, which would really mean he shouldn't be there by that conjecture, but we all know some base sizes prevent models from standing where the model would be able to if it didn't have to have a base. Such as an MC on an upper level of a ruin. It clearly needs an FAQ on that; do they mean 'physically' cannot be stood, or do they mean in terrain where it 'can't be stood' for game purposes. I suspect it's the latter, you can't 'stop' a move half way up a wall, you have to remain on the level below instead.

The exact wording under Wobbly Model rule says it only applies in situations in which you are able to delicately balance it in place ("If you delicately balance it in place...In cases like this..."). I would enforce this via an arbitrary 1-second-of-unsupported-standing house-rule.

In the particular case of on MC on an upper-level ruin. I see two general scenarios preventing its being there:
1. Ceiling prevents it from standing at full-height with the base flush as possible with the standing surface - I would disallow it being there entirely in this case
2. Standing surface lacks room for the entire base, in which case I use my arbitrary 1-second-standing-house-rule; if it can stand (perhaps in the case of the standing surface providing support for 55% of the base and turning the model so the majority of the weight is on the right side), then we'll allow it, otherwise it is not allowed there

In the broader scheme of things, 40k definitely lacks a thorough framework for handling all the nuances of terrain. Personally, I build/buy terrain with this in mind so there aren't too many surfaces that are ambiguous as to whether or not models are supposed to stand on them, so no medium piles of debris/vegetation/etc. - either they're big enough to clearly prevent being stood on (and likely providing cover) or clearly small/soft enough to place a model over it.

[Charon]

I don't see any issues there, if you want room kill a few in the shooting phase before you assault.

Neither chaosspawn nor posessed have the ability to shoot.

[Anggul]

This is one of the very few situations in which I say screw the rules. If the thing is clearly big enough to attack the next level easily, go for it. I'm not going to stop a Wraithknight that's bigger than the building from sweeping it's fist through it, or a Trygon with it's claws at the perfect level to cleave through the poor sods stood on the remaining floor.

If it's obviously too short to reach like a Carnifex or a Deffdread then yeah, can't attack, but I'll gladly allow anything big enough to do so. The shorter ones should be able to smash the supports of the building and bring it down so they can get to the guys higher up, but that would require all ruins to be modular and that isn't going to happen. Being able to wreck parts of ruins like you can with buildings would be great, but with the constraints of modelling terrain, sadly buildings will probably always be invincible once they get a chunk knocked out of them and become ruins.

[OlDirtyCosta]

This is one of the very few situations in which I say screw the rules. If the thing is clearly big enough to attack the next level easily, go for it. I'm not going to stop a Wraithknight that's bigger than the building from sweeping it's fist through it, or a Trygon with it's claws at the perfect level to cleave through the poor sods stood on the remaining floor.

If it's obviously too short to reach like a Carnifex or a Deffdread then yeah, can't attack, but I'll gladly allow anything big enough to do so. The shorter ones should be able to smash the supports of the building and bring it down so they can get to the guys higher up, but that would require all ruins to be modular and that isn't going to happen. Being able to wreck parts of ruins like you can with buildings would be great, but with the constraints of modelling terrain, sadly buildings will probably always be invincible once they get a chunk knocked out of them and become ruins.

This is my thought process also. I would just like to see a faq that clarified yes or no. Like the previous poster said it's kinda dumb that a unit can just hide in there with no repercussions. I mean I'm building my army around the fact that monstrous creatures can't assault. It's annoying though when an objective is placed on the "4th" floor and you can't do anything about it unless you try to get gaunts cup there in a tyranid army for example.

[hyudun]

Neither chaosspawn nor posessed have the ability to shoot.

I play Chaos and my solution is to bring out the Burning Brand. Alternatively, you have access to flamers and the dreaded Baleflamer. Even a Forgefiend would work pretty well here.

I don't think it's bad thing if a game mechanic forces you to diversify your tools. Not all units should be viable in all situations.

[Tynskel]

Officially it can't assault for the reasons above.

In a friendly game though I'd go with GW's Rule of Cool and if the MC can reach the models on the second level I'd let it attack. How many times have you seen that in a monster movie? :)

It's a monsterous creature.
Assault the piece of terrain. Bring 'em down to your level!

Smashy Smashy!

[Charon]

Neiter Spawn nor Posessed have the burning brand, flamers or a baleflamer. If I employ this stuff, I dont need to take these two units.

[John Bower]

I agree with Tynskel on this, rule of cool rules... It's over 3" tall, therefore it 'is' technically in base contact with them by virtue of it's arms and head are able to assault them. To accept otherwise is to say that King Kong couldn't snatch the girl from the 2nd story window because he wouldn't fit up there, no he wouldn't, but blow me the dude was 3 stories high....

[RGilbert26]

Neither chaosspawn nor posessed have the ability to shoot.

Then don't go after the unit on second level with those two choices.

[LCS]

This is one of the very few situations in which I say screw the rules. If the thing is clearly big enough to attack the next level easily, go for it. I'm not going to stop a Wraithknight that's bigger than the building from sweeping it's fist through it, or a Trygon with it's claws at the perfect level to cleave through the poor sods stood on the remaining floor.

If it's obviously too short to reach like a Carnifex or a Deffdread then yeah, can't attack, but I'll gladly allow anything big enough to do so. The shorter ones should be able to smash the supports of the building and bring it down so they can get to the guys higher up, but that would require all ruins to be modular and that isn't going to happen. Being able to wreck parts of ruins like you can with buildings would be great, but with the constraints of modelling terrain, sadly buildings will probably always be invincible once they get a chunk knocked out of them and become ruins.

So because of the large size of the MC, it can attack things that it isn't in base to base with. That makes perfect realistic sense. So with same thinking, what would you do if a MC has it's back foot standing in ruins, and there is a squad of Fire Dragons standing right in front of it,with nothing in between the two units and nothing obscuring the MC? Going by the rules, the MC would have a 4+ cover save. Going by the logic above however, the MC is clearly so massive that having it's foot hidden isn't really going to save it from the fiery death it deserves, so would you remove the cover save? I'm guessing no, and this is why we kind of have to play with the rules as they are written. Once we start to apply common sense and realistic thinking the game unravels pretty quick.

[OlDirtyCosta]

So because of the large size of the MC, it can attack things that it isn't in base to base with. That makes perfect realistic sense. So with same thinking, what would you do if a MC has it's back foot standing in ruins, and there is a squad of Fire Dragons standing right in front of it,with nothing in between the two units and nothing obscuring the MC? Going by the rules, the MC would have a 4+ cover save. Going by the logic above however, the MC is clearly so massive that having it's foot hidden isn't really going to save it from the fiery death it deserves, so would you remove the cover save? I'm guessing no, and this is why we kind of have to play with the rules as they are written. Once we start to apply common sense and realistic thinking the game unravels pretty quick.

I would be perfectly ok with the whole base having to be in terrain if I could assault a model on the second level....

[John Bower]

I would be perfectly ok with the whole base having to be in terrain if I could assault a model on the second level....

Ditto, it makes sense, just use the 25% rule applied to the base; so is 25% of the base within the borders of the ruin? If the answer is 'yes' cover save granted, if 'no' then no save.

[Thed Nome]

Maulerfiend... moves 7 inch fwd 3 inch up and half base is on ground half on 2nd floor... we rule that as fine around here... BUT he can't climb to 3rd floor or higher as he would crumble floor below him and fall back to 1st floor. Wraithnight can see into 3rd floor and stick big sword in there... then he can attack (basically an extension of fences/walls prevent B2B but can still attack). Another way to look at it is if you only had one attacking infantry model on 2nd floor in B2B and 3 models within 2 inches on 1st floor they would still get their hits in... remember not all models need to be B2B to hit.

[Anggul]

That 'fences/walls' one is a good way of thinking about it.

We could also implement the cities of death ruins rules with wrecker. Wrecker lets you make a ruin dangerous the first time you do it, then crumble it the second time you do it. All you would need is rubble with the appropriate base size to replace the ruin with when it's destroyed. It still provides 4+ cover so it isn't drastically reducing their survivability, but it means the shorter things like Carnifexes and Dreadnoughts have a way of getting to them: bash the place down.